The Shift in the Presentation of Mental Health

[Lord Spirit he/him]

After reading this thread, I think I would summarize the complaint as “the therapy breaks stormlight continuity and is too successful for ten days of its discovery and use.”

1. Kaladin has (slightly) more experience that he’s getting credit for. At the start of RoW, when he retires, he creates a therapy group with some of the patients the ardents are “helping”. I’m not entirely sure how long this lasts before the occupation, but Kaladin had a bit of to figure out some rules and ways to help others. Not to mention his own journey of battling depression.

2. Combat is not the best place for therapy. Yes, talking to an insane assassin about  their mental health during a war doesn’t sound normal. But Kaladin’s purpose isn’t to be cool or even to fight in this book. It’s to help others who have had traumatic experiences, which is a change of pace for him. 

3. Szeth, Nale and Ishar barely get  cured at all. Kaladin helps Szeth come to confront his past and to not kill himself. For Nale, it’s more the flute that reminds him of why he became a herald. For Ishar, it’s literally just his fifth ideal severing his connection to Odium. The heralds still need help. Kaladin plans on spending their time on Braize giving them therapy for 10 years (based on the gap to book 6). I’m not a therapist, but that seems like a more reasonable time frame. 
 

also for those complaining that therapy ruined some epic moments, it kinda makes sense, if you pause and consider the difference between the setting of normal therapy vs. the situation Roshar is in. Therapy isn’t going to be epic and dramatic most of the time. Sorry you only got it being so for four books. 

[coolsnow7]

On 1/2/2025 at 11:11 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

As a mental health professional, I have been grappling with my reactions to Wind and Truth.  Up until this book, I have been incredibly amazed at how the stories told in the first three books of the Stormlight Archive present mental health challenges.  Even in Rhythm of War, the impact of The Dog and the Dragon is incredibly powerful.  They're immensely inspiring books, and that inspiration happens with this beautiful fantasy backdrop with compelling characters and plot lines.

Wind and Truth, in contrast to this, mashes together a bunch of generalizations/boilerplate wisdom about life and presents this as “therapy” – and not just any therapy, but newly invented first of its kind therapy that’s so effective that it heals a lifetime of intensely pervasive trauma in Szeth, thousands of years of trauma in Nale, and supernaturally-Odium Juice-fueled thousands of years of trauma in Ishar.  In less than 10 days (and in less than a few moments/exchanges for some of these characters).

I’ve seen some folks refer to this as “self-help book” content, or “Tik Tok/Instagram-level therapy,” but I want to present this more cohesively, because the criticism from my opinion is not wrong, but it also makes it too easy to dismiss as “haters gonna hate/Brandon writes his books to be accessible to a wider audience so of course it’s going to sound this way/his prose has always been basic etc etc etc.”

As an example, I think a core mental health message Wind and Truth is telling us it’s trying to deliver (yes, read that again because a lot of this content feels "preachy") is captured in the three rules Kaladin gives to Szeth (Chapter 66):

1. You are not a thing.
2. You get to choose.
3. You deserve to be happy.

I don’t think this message is executed clearly throughout the book however, and because it’s mixed in with SO MUCH other (air quotes) “mental health stuff” (and some downright eyeroll-level dialogue), it all landed as flat and cringey.

Here’s what I mean - this is a list of “mental health stuff” themes I found in reviewing the Kaladin-Szeth Shinovar plot line; there are others in other plot lines, but this illustrates what I’m reacting to:

• Let’s Just Talk about It (Find someone.  Talk. Grow. It’s worth the effort, all right?)
• Just Listen (this isn’t the part where you talk.  Just listen…)
• Eat Stew Together (the mythical power of stew)
• Seeing Someone Else Do It Helps Inspire Others to Do It (But stand. Kaladin. DID)
• Think Differently (Dark Brain/Warrior Thoughts)
• Life Isn’t Always Black and White (I believe a man can be both)
• Make Your Own Choices (Tell Your Own Story)
• Try Something Different (How is that working out for you?)
• It Might Not Fix It, But It Might Make It Better
• Your Past/Trauma Isn’t an Excuse, but an Explanation
• Don’t Give Up (You have to practice it every day)
• Don’t Be a Bully (This attitude you put on?  You think it makes you appear strong, but it doesn’t)
• Just Be Better (Do better – try to fix the problem)
• Perspective Makes a Difference (I find it so much easier from the air)
• Focus on the Now (We need to focus on the now)
• We All Need Help Sometimes (Sometimes even ruthless assassins need a hug)
• You are Not a Thing (You. Are. Not. A. Thing.)
• Self-Care is Important (You’ll do more good if you take care of yourself as well)
• How Do You Feel? (SO. MUCH. HOW DO YOU FEEL could a more cliché phrase be used)
• We’re The Same, You and I (I’ve had that same problem; I’ve felt the same)
• So much softly spoken whispering is exchanged in this book it warrants its own bullet point (that's what therapy is folks - whispering softly)

In addition to these mental health/healing fixes, there’s also deus ex machina magic (which isn't therapy, but it mostly performs the same function as this other stuff):

• Magical Flute and Wind Music
• 5^th Ideal Stormlight Darkness Push-Away Power
• Nightblood

Chapter 139 was the climax of this Kaladin helping Szeth plot line.  “Seeing someone else resist helped” was the mental health message that was impacting Szeth, Syl, and even Ishar – all as Kaladin resisted the darkness.  When Ishar asks “What are you?” Kaladin responds, “I’m just an old spear who wouldn’t break,” which is a great (and appropriate) callback to Kaladin’s confrontation with Amaram in Oathbringer.

A few lines later, though, Ishar again asks (for the second time in a few minutes of time) “What are you?” and this is where the moment – and this arc – falls apart for me.

The criticism this book gets for treating mental health differently than earlier Stormlight books is completely valid.  This book ditches any subtext or nuance or interwoven flashbacks that tie directly into the tension of the next chapter and replaces it with:

Seriously, in Chapter 66, as Szeth is openly weeping, embracing Kaladin in a full moment of complete brokenness, we get this cutesy little exchange:

Grinning.  Double thumbs-up.  Even ruthless assassins need hugs too guys.

If anyone draws strength to carry on through times of personal adversity from this book, that’s great (I guess - this book really didn't land for me).

But as someone who does actual mental health treatment with real human beings, this book felt very much like a surface level, light dusting of content snow of what dealing with trauma (or any adversity) actually looks like.  I don’t use the word cringey lightly – but that “I’m his therapist” exchange between Kaladin and Ishar will always overshadow all the cool cosmere lore we got in this book (mostly in the last 200 pages), at least in my mind.

That’s hard to say, especially because I know that Brandon is trying very hard to be genuine (and apparently had professional sensitivity readers sign off on this), but “I deserve peace.  I deserve to be happy.  I will let myself enjoy living.” "think good thoughts and don’t think bad thoughts" picture of what “therapy” is just lands hollow for me as a practitioner of this way of helping people.

I’m not being unfair - literally a quote from the book:

And Kaladin as a therapist?  Szeth introspected it best:

Kaladin kept going, which is inspiring when that means he’s the spear that didn’t break, or when he’s the man standing up in the face of adversity…but it’s the worst when he's the one who won’t stop spitting out every therapy cliché in the book.

AND that’s my cue to stop going, because this is a long post.

The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer will be books I recommend to anyone anywhere (and have had clients share that these books help inspire their own journey of recovery; they’ve certainly helped in my own journey).  Rhythm of War is fine if you’re ready to shift away from inspirational character story to more fantasy in the same universe (and has a couple inspirational moments peppered in there).

I sadly can’t say the same about Wind and Truth.

As a complete non-practitioner, I completely agree with all of this. I don’t know what Brandon was going for here, or what he’s trying to build towards in future books. But I basically had to pretend I wasn’t reading such cheesy nonsense so I could focus on the good stuff in this book.

[VirtuousTraveller]

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

After reading this thread, I think I would summarize the complaint as “the therapy breaks stormlight continuity and is too successful for ten days of its discovery and use.”

I think the criticism is that the vocabulary, the cliche "therapy speak," and the writing itself distract and lower the quality of "mental health" themes from previous books.

Rather than describing Kaladin as a "therapist" who is "creating treatments/delivering therapy," it would have been more cohesive with the established worldbuliding to use a different word.  Helper, healer, giver of counsel - something like that.

Rather than such explicit therapy speak like "how does that make you feel?" or "All you do is listen, then tell me things I already kind of know," it would have sounded more like the Kaladin we got to know for him to frame these concepts from his own experiences working with people in the bridge crew, or as the leader of elite bodyguards for nobility, or as a surgeon, or as the leader of the magical air force of hundreds of people, or even from the men he worked with (for a short time) prior to the tower being invaded, occupied, and liberated in Rhythm of War.

Rather than little cute remarks like "even ruthless assassins need a hug" or blending philosophical quandaries about volition or "making difficult choices so that others can have peace," clarifying the extent of Szeth's mental health challenges (what is psychological vs magical vs cultural values and beliefs etc) and what Kaladin's actual goal is (making Szeth "feel better" vs using Szeth to magically influence Ishar) would help - and those are writing decisions that are either planned and executed well, or not.

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

also for those complaining that therapy ruined some epic moments, it kinda makes sense, if you pause and consider the difference between the setting of normal therapy vs. the situation Roshar is in.

That's I think the crux of my criticism - I'm not the one trying to say Kaladin was "doing therapy" on Roshar - the book is.  It goes out of its way (and outside the established language, voice, and worldbuilding) to make it clear that Kaladin is "inventing therapy" and that Kaladin is not a spren or god, but a therapist.

Another theme/fumbly writing concept I don't understand are the parallels between Ishar and Kaladin, which would have been really powerful if those parallels had been executed clearer or more intentionally.  Ishar and Kaladin of all people should have been able to have some level of understanding of each other.  Remember, it was Ishar who said:

Quote

"They would all be as helpless if not for me.  I am the conflux of all darkness and sorrow.  Their pains are upon me.  And still I stand before you."

-Chapter 33

Ishar was a man standing up.  And has been for thousands of years.  He was doing so to help others, and to save the planet(s), and to protect the cosmere from Odium.

Imagine if instead of Kaladin mumbling "Ishar," Kaladin said.  "I want to talk about the way you feel.  Um...I want to -" he would have said something like:

"Ishar, I cannot pretend to know what the burdens of thousands of years of standing in the face of such darkness is like.  But what I do know is a person would not endure that kind of pain without a purpose.  Maybe you deserve our worship for the sacrifices you've made.  But those sacrifices won't mean anything if we can't turn the tide of this war!"

Ishar could have ignored this plea just like he did in the moment as written in the book.

Then later when Ishar and Kaladin have their (should have been) epic confrontation in Chapter 139, the chapter could have gone exactly like it did, with Ishar shocked that Kaladin was "a man standing up" in the face of the darkness.  That seeing Kaladin stand helped give strength to Szeth and Syl.

THEN, instead of following, "How?  What are you?  His spren? His god?" with "No I'm his therapist"...

...image Kaladin said instead something like:

"No Ishar.  I am proof that you are not alone.  Proof that your sacrifices mattered.  Somebody had to start.  Somebody had to step forward and do what was right, even when it was impossibly hard.  Because you started, Ishar, I can follow.  We stand because they need us - because Roshar needs us.  WE STAND BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT"

Ishar can continue to melt down, and Kaladin can make his points about standing being hard, and needing to take care of ourselves when we take on those burdens, and then swear the fifth ideal and continue the story as written.

Edited January 5, 2025 by VirtuousTraveller

[Lord Spirit he/him]

41 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I think the criticism is that the vocabulary, the cliche "therapy speak," and the writing itself distract and lower the quality of "mental health" themes from previous books.

Rather than describing Kaladin as a "therapist" who is "creating treatments/delivering therapy," it would have been more cohesive with the established worldbuliding to use a different word.  Helper, healer, giver of counsel - something like that.

Rather than such explicit therapy speak like "how does that make you feel?" or "All you do is listen, then tell me things I already kind of know," it would have sounded more like the Kaladin we got to know for him to frame these concepts from his own experiences working with people in the bridge crew, or as the leader of elite bodyguards for nobility, or as a surgeon, or as the leader of the magical air force of hundreds of people, or even from the men he worked with (for a short time) prior to the tower being invaded, occupied, and liberated in Rhythm of War.

Rather than little cute remarks like "even ruthless assassins need a hug" or blending philosophical quandaries about volition or "making difficult choices so that others can have peace," clarifying the extent of Szeth's mental health challenges (what is psychological vs magical vs cultural values and beliefs etc) and what Kaladin's actual goal is (making Szeth "feel better" vs using Szeth to magically influence Ishar) would help - and those are writing decisions that are either planned and executed well, or not.

That's I think the crux of my criticism - I'm not the one trying to say Kaladin was "doing therapy" on Roshar - the book is.  It goes out of its way (and outside the established language, voice, and worldbuilding) to make it clear that Kaladin is "inventing therapy" and that Kaladin is not a spren or god, but a therapist.

Another theme/fumbly writing concept I don't understand are the parallels between Ishar and Kaladin, which would have been really powerful if those parallels had been executed clearer or more intentionally.  Ishar of all people would understand Kaladin.  Remember, it was Ishar who said:

Ishar was a man standing up.  And has been for thousands of years.  He was doing so to help others, and to save the planet(s), and to protect the cosmere from Odium.

Imagine if instead of Kaladin mumbling "Ishar," Kaladin said.  "I want to talk about the way you feel.  Um...I want to -" he would have said something like:

"Ishar, I cannot pretend to know what the burdens of thousands of years of standing in the face of such darkness is like.  But what I do know is a person would not endure that kind of pain without a purpose.  Maybe you deserve our worship for the sacrifices you've made.  But those sacrifices won't mean anything if we can't turn the tide of this war!"

Ishar could have ignored this plea just like he did in the moment as written in the book.

hen later when Ishar and Kaladin have their (should have been) epic confrontation in Chapter 139, the chapter could have gone exactly like it did, with Ishar shocked that Kaladin was "a man standing up" in the face of the darkness.  That seeing Kaladin stand helped give strength to Szeth and Syl.

THEN, instead of following, "How?  What are you?  His spren? His god?" with "No I'm his therapist"...

...image Kaladin said instead something like:

"No Ishar.  I am proof that you are not alone.  Proof that your sacrifices mattered.  Somebody had to start.  Somebody had to step forward and do what was right, even when it was impossibly hard.  Because you started, Ishar, I can follow.  We stand because they need us - because Roshar needs us.  WE STAND BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT"

Ishar can continue to melt down, and Kaladin can make his points about standing being hard, and needing to take care of ourselves when we take on those burdens, and then swear the fifth ideal and continue the story as written.

Fair enough. I do think that it was pretty blunt, but I think Sanderson might have intentionally been trying to make it awkward to serve as comic relief (which is not Kaladin’s strong point). 

[Fractalfire]

 

My complaint is that the therapy-speak is a) fundamentally atrocious writing, b) immersion breaking (both because it is cliche gunk and because it feels anachronistic), c) wrecks Kaladin's characterization, and d) ruins many otherwise good scenes by destroying the dramatic tension. 

I've heard some people argue that it is bad intentionally because Kaladin is new to therapy. Honestly, based on the writing so far, I'm not actually convinced Brandon can write a good therapy scene. (He seems to default to cliches, and tellingly he can't even take his own efforts seriously! He is constantly poking fun at the attempts.) That said, even if Brandon was intentionally trying to write this poorly -- why do that? One of the first rules of writing is that making a "good story" comes first! If writing Kaladin as bad at therapy results in this great of a decline in the dialogue, it was a poor decision, regardless of how "realistic" it may be. 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

Therapy isn’t going to be epic and dramatic most of the time. Sorry you only got it being so for four books. 

I think this is fundamentally the problem. (Though I would dispute that what we saw in books 1-4 was "therapy" as opposed to "character development." )

With apologies to the therapist in the chat, I think therapy -- as an explicit practice by a therapist -- does not fit well in a high fantasy book. Even were I particularly interested in mental health (which I'm not), it would be very hard to fit therapy in a good fantasy story. 

As an analogy, I am interested in economics. However, it would be really annoying if Aragorn suddenly decided "I am going to be Middle Earth's first economist" -- then proceeded to reinvent a very modern view of economics, which was simultaneously extremely shallow with poorly informed cliches that sound like they were ripped from TikTok. Trying to do "therapy" while tramping around the countryside on a quest is just bad plotting (not to mention boring). 

 

[VirtuousTraveller]

2 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

Fair enough. I do think that it was pretty blunt, but I think Sanderson might have intentionally been trying to make it awkward to serve as comic relief (which is not Kaladin’s strong point). 

(which is not Sanderson’s strong point either )

[VirtuousTraveller]

12 minutes ago, Fractalfire said:

With apologies to the therapist in the chat, I think therapy -- as an explicit practice by a therapist -- does not fit well in a high fantasy book.

There is nothing to apologize my friend!

If people want to watch the counseling/therapy process in fantastical/humorous situations, go watch Shrinking on Apple TV or The Patient on Hulu, or read any of Irvin Yalom’s fiction books (seriously - it’s absolutely fantastic to read the actual therapist, the father of group therapy, write engaging fiction about therapy; like, transformative-level quality that you’ll enjoy - highly recommend!)

That’s why I’ve framed this thread as how “mental health” has been treated in this series.  Overcoming adversity?  Absolutely.  Dealing with traumatic events in the past?  Powerful.  Confronting our shortcomings and refusing to let failure hold us back?  Inspirational.  These themes are bigger than “therapeutic psychosocial conceptualizations of symptomology” - they’re portrayals of the human condition.  They’re relatable.  They’re real things.

That’s the stuff everyone held up as a new Tolkien-level standard of fantasy in the 21st century.

This Kaladin narrative shift takes that series foundation of mental health and the human condition and makes it a gimmick.  

And when one of my favorite characters from one of my favorite book series written by one of my favorite authors becomes a gimmick through an awkward use of the language and imagery of my professional world…it makes me engage a lot on the forums

[RedBlue]

So, I have been thinking about this thread a lot, because my reading experience was the complete opposite.

Kaladin and Szeth’s plotline was my favourite part of the book. It got me in the emotions. I loved every chapter of it.

I kind of hesitated to even post my thoughts, because mental health is a sensitive topic (for obvious reasons), people clearly have very strong feelings about how it is depicted in this book, and I didn’t want anyone to feel like I was trying to tell them they’re wrong for having a negative reaction. To be clear: I’m not trying to argue or change anyone’s mind. I’m just adding my perspective to the discussion.

I loved that this plotline felt like a ray of sunshine among all the apocalyptic violence and desperation going on elsewhere. It felt like a necessary reminder of what we’re fighting for. A little levity and low-stakes bonding is a relief, and it felt wonderful to see Kaladin get to relax, poke at some weird plants, and try out his new mind-healing ideas. After all he’s been through in the last four books, he’s earned a break, brief though it was.

But Kaladin has another impossible task to contend with: ‘fixing’ Szeth and Ishar’s mental problems. All he has to work with are an education in conventional medicine, his vaguely relevant personal experiences, some cryptic comments from an actual alien, and common sense. He has no body of literature to consult, no established theories to base his approach on, and no time to find or conduct any sort of research. So he does the only sensible thing he can do: trial and error. He tries everything that has worked for him in the past, and some things that just seem like a good idea. He throws it all at Szeth and hopes that something will stick.

As one might expect, most of it doesn’t work. Kaladin’s attempts at starting a conversation and getting the ball rolling are clunky, and irritate Szeth rather than drawing him in. Ishar shuts him down without listening to a word (which I found hilarious). His first real success is the stew. Not because there’s anything special or supernatural about making stew, but because Kaladin’s intuition has always been on the money with that one — feeding people, and eating with them, facilitates social bonding.

In the end, what helps Szeth isn’t the general advice, the platitudes, or the yapping. It’s not having somebody ‘understand’ what he has gone through. After the life Szeth has lived — having a natural fixation with ‘right’ and ‘wrong,’ that fixation being reinforced in a destructive way by rigid cultural norms and a society that imposes a broken concept of morality onto him, being punished every time he makes a decision for himself, and eventually despairing of his own judgement so much that he gives up on having agency — the thing that gets through to him is having, for the first time since early childhood, a person who believes in him.

Kaladin reminds him that his parents loved him. Kaladin thinks that Szeth can and should make choices. Kaladin doesn’t give up on him. And Kaladin is genuine. He isn’t doing all this because Dalinar told him to, though that is how it started. He isn’t ‘fixing’ Szeth so that he can be useful to Kaladin’s agenda. Kaladin really believes that Szeth deserves to heal and be better. And because Kaladin believes it, Szeth can start to believe it too.

This doesn’t solve all, or even most, of Szeth’s problems. He still has a ways to go by the end of the book. But Szeth is finally on the right track, and able to make his own judgement calls.

Meanwhile, the Heralds pose different kinds of challenges with different solutions. Nale comes wanting an argument, so Kaladin gives him one. After a few false starts, Kaladin gets the flute out. Reason by itself isn’t getting through to Nale, but using the story of Wandersail with the Wind’s music adds the force of emotion to Kaladin’s point, and Nale finally has his breakthrough moment.

By the end, Kaladin has forced out the corruption that was supernaturally tainting the Heralds, but Odium’s influence was only part of the problem. Nale is semi-functional, and Kaladin hasn’t touched on Ishar’s personal issues. And I can hardly wait to get back to them in the next book. 

[Ookla she/her]

2 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I think the criticism is that the vocabulary, the cliche "therapy speak," and the writing itself distract and lower the quality of "mental health" themes from previous books.

Rather than describing Kaladin as a "therapist" who is "creating treatments/delivering therapy," it would have been more cohesive with the established worldbuliding to use a different word.  Helper, healer, giver of counsel - something like that.

Rather than such explicit therapy speak like "how does that make you feel?" or "All you do is listen, then tell me things I already kind of know," it would have sounded more like the Kaladin we got to know for him to frame these concepts from his own experiences working with people in the bridge crew, or as the leader of elite bodyguards for nobility, or as a surgeon, or as the leader of the magical air force of hundreds of people, or even from the men he worked with (for a short time) prior to the tower being invaded, occupied, and liberated in Rhythm of War.

Rather than little cute remarks like "even ruthless assassins need a hug" or blending philosophical quandaries about volition or "making difficult choices so that others can have peace," clarifying the extent of Szeth's mental health challenges (what is psychological vs magical vs cultural values and beliefs etc) and what Kaladin's actual goal is (making Szeth "feel better" vs using Szeth to magically influence Ishar) would help - and those are writing decisions that are either planned and executed well, or not.

That's I think the crux of my criticism - I'm not the one trying to say Kaladin was "doing therapy" on Roshar - the book is.  It goes out of its way (and outside the established language, voice, and worldbuilding) to make it clear that Kaladin is "inventing therapy" and that Kaladin is not a spren or god, but a therapist.

Another theme/fumbly writing concept I don't understand are the parallels between Ishar and Kaladin, which would have been really powerful if those parallels had been executed clearer or more intentionally.  Ishar and Kaladin of all people should have been able to have some level of understanding of each other.  Remember, it was Ishar who said:

Ishar was a man standing up.  And has been for thousands of years.  He was doing so to help others, and to save the planet(s), and to protect the cosmere from Odium.

Imagine if instead of Kaladin mumbling "Ishar," Kaladin said.  "I want to talk about the way you feel.  Um...I want to -" he would have said something like:

"Ishar, I cannot pretend to know what the burdens of thousands of years of standing in the face of such darkness is like.  But what I do know is a person would not endure that kind of pain without a purpose.  Maybe you deserve our worship for the sacrifices you've made.  But those sacrifices won't mean anything if we can't turn the tide of this war!"

Ishar could have ignored this plea just like he did in the moment as written in the book.

Then later when Ishar and Kaladin have their (should have been) epic confrontation in Chapter 139, the chapter could have gone exactly like it did, with Ishar shocked that Kaladin was "a man standing up" in the face of the darkness.  That seeing Kaladin stand helped give strength to Szeth and Syl.

THEN, instead of following, "How?  What are you?  His spren? His god?" with "No I'm his therapist"...

...image Kaladin said instead something like:

"No Ishar.  I am proof that you are not alone.  Proof that your sacrifices mattered.  Somebody had to start.  Somebody had to step forward and do what was right, even when it was impossibly hard.  Because you started, Ishar, I can follow.  We stand because they need us - because Roshar needs us.  WE STAND BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT"

Ishar can continue to melt down, and Kaladin can make his points about standing being hard, and needing to take care of ourselves when we take on those burdens, and then swear the fifth ideal and continue the story as written.

Having just watched The Two Towers over again tonight, I kind of wonder if the "I'm his therapist" line was unconsciously inspired by a line from Sam when he and Frodo are captured by Faramir. Faramir is talking to Frodo and asks about Sam, "Who are you? And him--is he your bodyguard?" And Sam replies, "His gardener." In LotR, it's kinda epic. But I think it didn't translate well to the WaT, if LotR was indeed an inspiring source for it.

[VirtuousTraveller]

46 minutes ago, Ookla the Ookla said:

Having just watched The Two Towers over again tonight, I kind of wonder if the "I'm his therapist" line was unconsciously inspired by a line from Sam when he and Frodo are captured by Faramir. Faramir is talking to Frodo and asks about Sam, "Who are you? And him--is he your bodyguard?" And Sam replies, "His gardener." In LotR, it's kinda epic. But I think it didn't translate well to the WaT, if LotR was indeed an inspiring source for it.

::groan::

I almost guarantee that's where this came from.  And THAT line fits the moment in a funny way, because it's genuine and authentic to who those characters are.

This almost makes this line even worse.  Good catch @Ookla the Ookla!

[Nitpicking]

[Humor]

14 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

(which is not Sanderson’s strong point either )

He can be funny, but rarely in dialogue. (Exception: occasionally Lift.) I thought Jasnah restoring her notebooks from encrypted cloud backup was very funny. It was so subtle that almost nobody but me even noticed it, apparently.

[coolsnow7]

On 1/4/2025 at 9:16 PM, Lord Spirit said:

Fair enough. I do think that it was pretty blunt, but I think Sanderson might have intentionally been trying to make it awkward to serve as comic relief (which is not Kaladin’s strong point). 

There’s a LOT of “comic relief” in this book. This is a trend I’ve noticed with The Lost Metal too, which I call Avengersification: every character, whether they’re smart or dumb, whether they’re uptight or whimsical, whether they’re cynical or naive, serves as a platform for witty zingers in the same voice. To the point where it feels like Wit has about as many zingers as Szeth in this book.

[Blackthorne]

I agree with the general sentiment of the OP but I do think if you read it it isn't very clear that Kaladin is all that effective in his approach. Ishar/Nale only start to see clearly after Mishram is freed and Dalinar gives up Honour/Retribution forms. We've seen in past books that Heralds do have moments of clarity that have nothing to do with therapy, so I think the main takeaway here isn't that Kaladin succeeds but that the corruption that impacts the Heralds weakens at the end of the novel. It's Ishar who persuades Nale to try again, Chanarach/Ash change course on their own accord, and the other Heralds also choose to show up on their own. Kaladin's approach is effective at calming Nightblood, but that says as much about Nightblood as it says about Kaladin. Szeth's journey is more complicated, but I think seeing Nale/Aux/Ishar fail to live up to their reputation is part of what motivates him.  

Generally though I do agree with you, something about Kaladin's whole 'therapist' arc just seems inorganic. I feel similarly about Jasnah and Taravangian's philosophy disputes. So much about Roshar is so different than our world that it seems strange to just inject our practices/beliefs onto the characters. You can believe core concepts liek consequentialism will exist, but the approach/finer details of something like Therapy shouldn't be so similar. This should be even more true for the Heralds as they should have an entirely different set of beliefs than Kaladin. Though actually in this regard the Heralds are all pretty extraordinary in their willingness to fight again.  

 

 

[VirtuousTraveller]

On 1/4/2025 at 10:14 PM, RedBlue said:

As one might expect, most of it doesn’t work. Kaladin’s attempts at starting a conversation and getting the ball rolling are clunky, and irritate Szeth rather than drawing him in. Ishar shuts him down without listening to a word (which I found hilarious).

Those moments were some of the best examples of humor in the book.  When Kaladin kept throwing out the stories Hoid shared and playing his magical SYLUTE ::eyeroll:: I loved this comment:

Quote

"Please keep your children’s rhymes and songs to yourself.  The adults are trying to save the world.”

-Ishar, Chapter 131

I felt that Kaladin's philosophical musings (separate from his therapy-speak) were somewhat childish and shallow as well in this book.  When he, Szeth, and Nale are talking in Chapter 128, and Szeth makes the claim "Sometimes, a price must be paid for survival."  Kaladin says NO.  Szeth then continues:

Quote

"But what if someone has to make difficult choices, and do terrible things, so that others may have peace?"

Kaladin responds:

Quote

“What peace?” Kaladin demanded, waving his hands.  You think people can live in peace, knowing the cost?  Look, I don’t have all the answers.  I’ve told you that.  But this isn’t a question of a few people needing to make a terrible choice.  That’s a lie – everyone, everywhere faces these kinds of decisions.  That’s life.  What kind of world would it be if every time such a decision came up, we forced ourselves to sacrifice?  Not giving up our lives or time, but our integrity, our happiness, our very identities?”

Everyone, everywhere has to make these kind of decisions?  Everyone has to consider how to strategically fight against supernatural, god-fueled, literal immortal monsters that have continuously waged war and retreated and waged war and retreated for thousands of years?

The argument continues:

Quote

"And what if by giving up our edge, we lose?" Szeth asked.

"Then we lose, Szeth." Kaladin said.  "Maybe we even die.  But in doing so, we retain ourselves - because I tell you, there are worse fates."

I would argue that by choosing not to take certain actions, it is possible to allow a greater evil or a worse fate to befall everyone impacted by our choices.

Ishar (and by extension Nale and his leadership of the Skybreakers) seems to exemplify the utilitarian view of the classic trolley dilemma.  The interesting twist in the Stormlight Archive on this dilemma is "but killing one person didn't actually save everyone else," with Ishar and Nale as the muses for this narrative.

When Kaladin waxes poetic about "everyone facing these kind of decisions" and that the world would be misery if we all chose to sacrifice our happiness," it again feels like a childish oversimplification of what should be the deontological view of ethics.

Similar to the psychological concepts and mental health we've discussed in this thread, I think some of the philosophical musings in this book were likewise a bit shallow and underdeveloped (a la Jasnah versus Taravangian).

Edited January 6, 2025 by VirtuousTraveller

[Darvys]

Yeah, it all went downhill from that conversation with Wit on day 1, it felt like Brandon wanted to write Kaladin trying to be a therapist when all the story needed was the same old Kaladin trying to help his companions any way he could, the character had already proven to possess the qualities needed to provide the help Szeth needs, modern therapy doesn't belong on Roshar yet, and that's fine, all it needs, all Kaladin needs to be, is an empathetic and discerning person who's wise enough to guide a friend through a rough time, the structure can wait, the lingo and clichés can disappear, mental support and people capable of providing it have existed since the dawn of our time, that's all WaT needed from Kaladin, maybe let Lirin do the work to continue developing said structure in the time-skip in place of his believed dead son.

But no, Brandon was too impatient I guess, and we got this instead, meh. If this is what the experts he consults thought would be appropriate, then he needs new experts, because it seems to me like he's quickly losing himself in the weeds.

[VirtuousTraveller]

On 1/4/2025 at 10:14 PM, RedBlue said:

In the end, what helps Szeth isn’t the general advice, the platitudes, or the yapping. It’s not having somebody ‘understand’ what he has gone through. After the life Szeth has lived — having a natural fixation with ‘right’ and ‘wrong,’ that fixation being reinforced in a destructive way by rigid cultural norms and a society that imposes a broken concept of morality onto him, being punished every time he makes a decision for himself, and eventually despairing of his own judgement so much that he gives up on having agency — the thing that gets through to him is having, for the first time since early childhood, a person who believes in him.

You know something, if the quality of the writing had been tighter, if there wouldn’t have been all the quips and (to me) attempts at humor, and if we didn’t have the word “therapist” involved, this story would have landed better.  Getting to the end of the story and having Kaladin reflect on exactly your point - wow it isn’t a gimmick, it’s authentic human (lowercase c) connection that makes a difference - I think that would have been a more satisfying package.

Your summary of this plot arc is one that would have hit me in the emotions too.  While I clearly had difficulty reading it with the distractions I’ve laid out in this thread, I’ll remember how you distilled it when I eventually reread it.  Intent and execution are different things, and I do think Brandon intended this to be more along the lines of how you experienced it.

[Schneeente]

On 1/3/2025 at 5:11 AM, VirtuousTraveller said:

But as someone who does actual mental health treatment with real human beings, this book felt very much like a surface level, light dusting of content snow of what dealing with trauma (or any adversity) actually looks like.

You might want to consider if the problem is really that Kaladin can only do "surface level" stuff (and doesn't even have a PHD in either medicine or psychology) or if maybe the problem is that you seem to expect a nonfiction book for students. 

 

The guy (Kaladin) is living on a different planet and is only using the term "therapist" because Wit dropped the name. Until now nobody on that planet has ever thought that you could cure mental illnesses or problems with the mind by talking. 

I would have been really upset if Kaladin suddenly started to behave like a therapist who studied 5 years at university and has 30 years of practice under their belt.  

 

I also think it's incredibly unfair to compare "depicting the problem" and "healing it". Showing what is wrong and how those people suffer and doing what is 2025 approved as the best method to deal with the issues are two totally different issues and it makes zero sense to have a fantasy book do the latter. I appreciate that Kaladin wanted to help and he did the best he could. Probably did better than many/most people would have done nowadays - even with our more advanced knowledge. Because the first step if you want to help someone is to care - and I'm pretty sure if I had been in that situation, I wouldn't even have managed to do that. Szeth now hears voices? Well, the guy is a mass murderer who killed other people just because they were holding a freaking stone, why would I even want to help such a person.

 

 

I think the lesson here is not how to hold US-certified theraphy sessions, for me it is about how important it is to have someone to talk to. Szeth would have been super miserable and would not have been ably to grow if he didn't have someone he could talk to - share his immense inner pain with. And I think it was anything but cringe to see how Kaladin tried to help that poor, tortured soul. 

[Subvisual Haze]

I doubt it will happen, but I think a delightful reveal would be that Kaladin isn't really doing therapy but just revealing a sign about his true nature. 

"The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known"

[Aredor]

It's all Wit's fault. If he hadn't used the word of "therapist" in their ONLY conversation in the entire book, then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation to the extent that we are. We wouldn't have gotten the awful line of "I'm his therapist."

Kaladin just should never have been depicted as a bona fide therapist- he should have been depicted as someone who is just trying to help in the way that he helped the others in RoW with NATURAL conversation. Every conversation that Kal has with Szeth/Nale/Ishar is incredibly forced for something that was depicted so naturally in RoW. 

With Nale and Ishar, the problem that people are having is that the story depicts Kal's 'Therapy' as healing them as opposed to what really happened, with the Wind / 5th Ideal healing them. It was once Nale started talking about the days where he knew Wind that he stopped his Herald Madness. Ishar was 'fixed' because of Kal's 5th Ideal that led into Wind/Nightblood removing the Taint that Ishar had brought upon himself by drinking of the Dark One's energy/True Power Perpendicularity. Those are good things to happen to these men- but it's depicted as Kaladin healing them through 'therapy.'

[VirtuousTraveller]

4 hours ago, Schneeente said:

You might want to consider if the problem is really that Kaladin can only do "surface level" stuff (and doesn't even have a PHD in either medicine or psychology) or if maybe the problem is that you seem to expect a nonfiction book for students.

I wouldn't say that's what I expected - Kaladin had already been set up as "being a surgeon for the mind" in RoW.  But as much as I felt RoW was a step down in writing atmosphere/tone from the first three books of the series, none of Kaladin's RoW scenes felt as shallow as WaT.  In fact, they felt more authentic to his character in both the vocabulary he used and the continuity of the story.

Quote

"Can...can I keep my oaths without fighting?" Kaladin asked.  "I need to protect."

"There are many ways to protect," Dalinar said.  "Not all Radiants went into battle in the old days.  I have found many ways to serve this war without swinging a Blade on the front lines."

"You won't be the first celebrated soldier who has moved to a support position after seeing one too many friends die," Dalinar said to Kaladin.

-Rhythm of War (Chapter 10)

-------------

There was more than one way to protect.

Kaladin had always known this, but he hadn't felt it.  Feeling and knowing seemed to be the same to his father, but not to Kaladin.  Listening to descriptions from books was never good enough for him. He had to try something to understand it.

He threw himself into this new challenge:  finding a way to help Noril and the others in the sanitarium.

-Rhythm of War (Chapter 33)

Kaladin had to learn how to help other people without being on the battlefield.  He found his calling in helping people in the sanitarium, because he related to the struggles they experienced.  When Kaladin and his mother are talking about how he's trying to help the small group of men he pulled together, he uses language authentic to his experience:

Quote

"The squad is stronger than the individual," Kaladin said.  "You simply need to get them pointed in the same direction.  Get them to lift the bridge together..."

-Rhythm of War, Chapter 33

Kaladin also references his experiences as a slave in this conversation - something he knew about.  He used the vocabulary of his life and experience - not a clinical non-existent textbook (though Lirin was able to find seven texts on sanity, though they were all pretty useless).

Perhaps most powerfully in this chapter, this exchange happens:

Quote

"Anyway," Kaladin said, nodding toward the group of men, "I suspected after talking to Noril that this would help.  It changes something to be able to speak to others about your pain.  It helps to have others who actually understand."

"I understand," his mother said.  "Your father understands."

He was glad she thought that, wrong though she was.  They were sympathetic, but they didn't understand.  Better that they didn't.

-Rhythm of War, Chapter 33

THIS is an authentic depiction of the voice and tone of Kaladin in the Stormlight Archive.  It also depicts mental health in a way that feels realistic in the context of this story.

It sounds nothing like:

Quote

“Do you ever look back and feel intimidated by the flow of time?  Bemused how its current snatched you up and carried you away?”

-Wind and Truth, Chapter 35

I didn't expect a textbook, but that kind of tone and vocabulary just don't ring true to Kaladin.  Imagine something more like - "have you ever felt like your only purpose was to be used by those around you?" (that's very on the nose of Szeth's circumstances, but at least Kaladin could relate to this idea from his days as a bridgeman and darkeyes).  "You are not a thing" could still be pulled as a lesson from this conversation, but the conversation would have been more "Kaladin" this way.

[therunner he/him]

7 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I didn't expect a textbook, but that kind of tone and vocabulary just don't ring true to Kaladin.  .

That is because Kaladin is in those moments intentionally trying to act like Wit did to him...and it does not really work.

[VirtuousTraveller]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

That is because Kaladin is in those moments intentionally trying to act like Wit did to him...and it does not really work.

That does line up with their exchange early in Wind and Truth:

Quote

"Congratulations.  You've practiced music, you've listened to a self-important rant, and you've delivered quips at awkward points.  I dub you graduated from Wit's school of practical impracticality."

"Wait," Kaladin said.  "Does that make me...your apprentice?"

Wit belted out a loud, full belly laugh, long enough to be uncomfortable.  "Kal," he said, gasping for breath, "you're still far, far too useful a human being to be an apprentice of mine.  You'd end up actually helping people!  No, I've already had one bridgeboy as an apprentice, and graduated or not, he's incompetent enough to hold on to the position."

"I'll have you know," Kaladin said, "that Sig is doing a fine job leading the Windrunners."

"You've been corrupting him," Wit said.  "No, you're not my apprentice, but that doesn't mean you can't learn a thing or two.  A kind of...cross-training in uselessness."

-Wind and Truth (Chapter 4)

Granted, all this comes right before the "just you becoming your world's first therapist" line, which does support your statement.  It just seems odd that Kaladin would have experienced some success with the men in his group in Rhythm of War using his own vocabulary and life experience, only for him to decide he has to start acting like Wit when he tries to help Szeth (and Nale, and Ishar).

[drunkenbotanist]

On 1/4/2025 at 10:14 PM, RedBlue said:

So, I have been thinking about this thread a lot, because my reading experience was the complete opposite.

Kaladin and Szeth’s plotline was my favourite part of the book. It got me in the emotions. I loved every chapter of it.

I kind of hesitated to even post my thoughts, because mental health is a sensitive topic (for obvious reasons), people clearly have very strong feelings about how it is depicted in this book, and I didn’t want anyone to feel like I was trying to tell them they’re wrong for having a negative reaction. To be clear: I’m not trying to argue or change anyone’s mind. I’m just adding my perspective to the discussion.

I loved that this plotline felt like a ray of sunshine among all the apocalyptic violence and desperation going on elsewhere. It felt like a necessary reminder of what we’re fighting for. A little levity and low-stakes bonding is a relief, and it felt wonderful to see Kaladin get to relax, poke at some weird plants, and try out his new mind-healing ideas. After all he’s been through in the last four books, he’s earned a break, brief though it was.

But Kaladin has another impossible task to contend with: ‘fixing’ Szeth and Ishar’s mental problems. All he has to work with are an education in conventional medicine, his vaguely relevant personal experiences, some cryptic comments from an actual alien, and common sense. He has no body of literature to consult, no established theories to base his approach on, and no time to find or conduct any sort of research. So he does the only sensible thing he can do: trial and error. He tries everything that has worked for him in the past, and some things that just seem like a good idea. He throws it all at Szeth and hopes that something will stick.

As one might expect, most of it doesn’t work. Kaladin’s attempts at starting a conversation and getting the ball rolling are clunky, and irritate Szeth rather than drawing him in. Ishar shuts him down without listening to a word (which I found hilarious). His first real success is the stew. Not because there’s anything special or supernatural about making stew, but because Kaladin’s intuition has always been on the money with that one — feeding people, and eating with them, facilitates social bonding.

In the end, what helps Szeth isn’t the general advice, the platitudes, or the yapping. It’s not having somebody ‘understand’ what he has gone through. After the life Szeth has lived — having a natural fixation with ‘right’ and ‘wrong,’ that fixation being reinforced in a destructive way by rigid cultural norms and a society that imposes a broken concept of morality onto him, being punished every time he makes a decision for himself, and eventually despairing of his own judgement so much that he gives up on having agency — the thing that gets through to him is having, for the first time since early childhood, a person who believes in him.

Kaladin reminds him that his parents loved him. Kaladin thinks that Szeth can and should make choices. Kaladin doesn’t give up on him. And Kaladin is genuine. He isn’t doing all this because Dalinar told him to, though that is how it started. He isn’t ‘fixing’ Szeth so that he can be useful to Kaladin’s agenda. Kaladin really believes that Szeth deserves to heal and be better. And because Kaladin believes it, Szeth can start to believe it too.

This doesn’t solve all, or even most, of Szeth’s problems. He still has a ways to go by the end of the book. But Szeth is finally on the right track, and able to make his own judgement calls.

Meanwhile, the Heralds pose different kinds of challenges with different solutions. Nale comes wanting an argument, so Kaladin gives him one. After a few false starts, Kaladin gets the flute out. Reason by itself isn’t getting through to Nale, but using the story of Wandersail with the Wind’s music adds the force of emotion to Kaladin’s point, and Nale finally has his breakthrough moment.

By the end, Kaladin has forced out the corruption that was supernaturally tainting the Heralds, but Odium’s influence was only part of the problem. Nale is semi-functional, and Kaladin hasn’t touched on Ishar’s personal issues. And I can hardly wait to get back to them in the next book. 

And importantly, Nale was always semi-functional if not in a good way. He led a secret society of powerful people across the entire continent for thousands of years

[Schneeente]

4 hours ago, Aredor said:

Kaladin just should never have been depicted as a bona fide therapist- he should have been depicted as someone who is just trying to help

I can only speak for myself of course, but I never felt as if Kaladin was depicted as a real therapist. On the contrary, knowing Wit and his humor I've read the word "therapist" with a subtle ironic undertone. Nobody who has grown up in our world would consider Kaladin a "bona fide therapist" and Wit very likely isn't doing that either.    

For me he has always only wanted to help others. Protect them. Even from their own mind. 

4 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

none of Kaladin's RoW scenes felt as shallow as WaT.  In fact, they felt more authentic to his character in both the vocabulary he used and the continuity of the story.

I thought the way he explained to Szeth how to defend against bad thoughts was super cute and totally in character for Kaladin. Imagine your own thoughts are soldiers that you can field against the bad thoughts. And of course as with all soldiers first you have to train them, so you have to train your soldier-thoughts by repeating them in your mind again and again... I mean... isn't that authentic and in character? 

 

I agree that he's more hesitant now, unsure what to do... Wit and especially Dalinar and the Wind have placed so much expectation/pressure on his shoulders. And he has absolutely no idea what to do, how to "heal" someone on command. Especially not how to heal someone who (1) is hostile to you and (2) doesn't want to talk about "their problems". So what does he do? Totally another in-character thingy: He decides that eating stew together will surely help...  

[Ripheus23]

When I first read WoK, I was working a fairly miserable job, one that had a sort of reputation to the effect that people working this job were "low-value." Still, not even close to the horror of being a bridge runner in the Shattered Plains. Anyway, the employee was divvied up to where the "pretty girls" would all work the public/service section, and it was a hodgepodge of "misfit men" in the kitchen: current or former drug addicts, people with physical or mental developmental "abnormalities," ex-criminals, etc.

So, I got it into my silly little head to try to be Kaladin for them, to try to instill discipline and self-esteem in my "men" (I ended up being the show runner for the kitchen for the better part of my four-and-a-half years there). I'd crack jokes molded to their personalities, explain training so that I didn't come across as barking incomprehensible random orders at them, and demonstrate how the job could be done in a way that would put to rest any idea that we were "low-value" people for being here.

It.

Didn't.

Work.

I mean, there were a few decent results, moments of successful long-term training and crew morale boosts, but nothing like equipping us to move on to better pastures but staying behind to help some valiant managers we happened to notice being valiant. Like, nothing close to what Kaladin got at the end of WoK. We weren't being ground down by participation in a genocidal, nonsensical war where we were the apex of expendability, the level of trauma my coworkers had gone through was hardly anything like what Bridge Four's members went through before and during their stint as bridge runners. So, if what Kaladin did in WoK was more realistic than what he did in W&T, well...

Also, an enormous amount of my therapy experience was being given one weird medication after another, being told, "Come back in two weeks and it'll be working by then," unintelligible gibberish about how I shouldn't use the word "shouldn't," games of UNO in the psych ward (when I ended up there) along with hundreds of pages of practice drawing cartoon landscapes/characters, yadayadayada but what good was it?

So when Kaladin can heal people's minds at all, in part because he's empowered by divine glory in the process after all, I don't know whether I can judge it to be realistic, unrealistic, or something else, on the philosophical level. Maybe if I were more physically attractive, I'd have gotten better results in the one direction; maybe if my therapy crew wasn't embedded in a sociopathic military-economic system (the mental health campus I worked at was partly under local military police jurisdiction, among other things), they would have treated me in a more effective way, in the other. Maybe my coworkers and I were doomed to live as, as well as in, filth, no matter how hard any of us tried to stand up for ourselves. I don't know.

EDIT: the job I mostly am talking about in the above was not the job I had working at the mental health campus. My campus job was part of a vocational rehab program, I wasn't looked down on for having it, but the previous job was one people looked down on others for having.

Edited January 7, 2025 by Ripheus23