The Shift in the Presentation of Mental Health

[VirtuousTraveller]

As a mental health professional, I have been grappling with my reactions to Wind and Truth.  Up until this book, I have been incredibly amazed at how the stories told in the first three books of the Stormlight Archive present mental health challenges.  Even in Rhythm of War, the impact of The Dog and the Dragon is incredibly powerful.  They're immensely inspiring books, and that inspiration happens with this beautiful fantasy backdrop with compelling characters and plot lines.

Wind and Truth, in contrast to this, mashes together a bunch of generalizations/boilerplate wisdom about life and presents this as “therapy” – and not just any therapy, but newly invented first of its kind therapy that’s so effective that it heals a lifetime of intensely pervasive trauma in Szeth, thousands of years of trauma in Nale, and supernaturally-Odium Juice-fueled thousands of years of trauma in Ishar.  In less than 10 days (and in less than a few moments/exchanges for some of these characters).

I’ve seen some folks refer to this as “self-help book” content, or “Tik Tok/Instagram-level therapy,” but I want to present this more cohesively, because the criticism from my opinion is not wrong, but it also makes it too easy to dismiss as “haters gonna hate/Brandon writes his books to be accessible to a wider audience so of course it’s going to sound this way/his prose has always been basic etc etc etc.”

As an example, I think a core mental health message Wind and Truth is telling us it’s trying to deliver (yes, read that again because a lot of this content feels "preachy") is captured in the three rules Kaladin gives to Szeth (Chapter 66):

1. You are not a thing.
2. You get to choose.
3. You deserve to be happy.

I don’t think this message is executed clearly throughout the book however, and because it’s mixed in with SO MUCH other (air quotes) “mental health stuff” (and some downright eyeroll-level dialogue), it all landed as flat and cringey.

Here’s what I mean - this is a list of “mental health stuff” themes I found in reviewing the Kaladin-Szeth Shinovar plot line; there are others in other plot lines, but this illustrates what I’m reacting to:

• Let’s Just Talk about It (Find someone.  Talk. Grow. It’s worth the effort, all right?)
• Just Listen (this isn’t the part where you talk.  Just listen…)
• Eat Stew Together (the mythical power of stew)
• Seeing Someone Else Do It Helps Inspire Others to Do It (But stand. Kaladin. DID)
• Think Differently (Dark Brain/Warrior Thoughts)
• Life Isn’t Always Black and White (I believe a man can be both)
• Make Your Own Choices (Tell Your Own Story)
• Try Something Different (How is that working out for you?)
• It Might Not Fix It, But It Might Make It Better
• Your Past/Trauma Isn’t an Excuse, but an Explanation
• Don’t Give Up (You have to practice it every day)
• Don’t Be a Bully (This attitude you put on?  You think it makes you appear strong, but it doesn’t)
• Just Be Better (Do better – try to fix the problem)
• Perspective Makes a Difference (I find it so much easier from the air)
• Focus on the Now (We need to focus on the now)
• We All Need Help Sometimes (Sometimes even ruthless assassins need a hug)
• You are Not a Thing (You. Are. Not. A. Thing.)
• Self-Care is Important (You’ll do more good if you take care of yourself as well)
• How Do You Feel? (SO. MUCH. HOW DO YOU FEEL could a more cliché phrase be used)
• We’re The Same, You and I (I’ve had that same problem; I’ve felt the same)
• So much softly spoken whispering is exchanged in this book it warrants its own bullet point (that's what therapy is folks - whispering softly)

In addition to these mental health/healing fixes, there’s also deus ex machina magic (which isn't therapy, but it mostly performs the same function as this other stuff):

• Magical Flute and Wind Music
• 5^th Ideal Stormlight Darkness Push-Away Power
• Nightblood

Chapter 139 was the climax of this Kaladin helping Szeth plot line.  “Seeing someone else resist helped” was the mental health message that was impacting Szeth, Syl, and even Ishar – all as Kaladin resisted the darkness.  When Ishar asks “What are you?” Kaladin responds, “I’m just an old spear who wouldn’t break,” which is a great (and appropriate) callback to Kaladin’s confrontation with Amaram in Oathbringer.

A few lines later, though, Ishar again asks (for the second time in a few minutes of time) “What are you?” and this is where the moment – and this arc – falls apart for me.

Quote

“How?”  Ishar repeated.  “What are you?”  He gestured toward Szeth.  “Are you…are you his spren?  His god?”

“No,” Kaladin said.  “I’m his therapist.”

Ishar blinked.  “…What is that?”

“I honestly have no idea,” Kaladin admitted.

The criticism this book gets for treating mental health differently than earlier Stormlight books is completely valid.  This book ditches any subtext or nuance or interwoven flashbacks that tie directly into the tension of the next chapter and replaces it with:

Quote

“We all need help sometimes," Kaladin said.  "Do you…sometimes feel overwhelmed?”

and

"I guess it’s like everything in life.  You have to find a balance."

and

“Maybe,” Kaladin said, “if what you’re doing isn’t working, you should try something different.”

Seriously, in Chapter 66, as Szeth is openly weeping, embracing Kaladin in a full moment of complete brokenness, we get this cutesy little exchange:

Quote

Kaladin held tight as Syl popped up from behind Szeth and – grinning – gave Kaladin a double thumbs-up.  Was this what Wit had meant by being a therapist?  Kaladin supposed that once in a while, every person – even ruthless assassins – needed a hug.

Grinning.  Double thumbs-up.  Even ruthless assassins need hugs too guys.

If anyone draws strength to carry on through times of personal adversity from this book, that’s great (I guess - this book really didn't land for me).

But as someone who does actual mental health treatment with real human beings, this book felt very much like a surface level, light dusting of content snow of what dealing with trauma (or any adversity) actually looks like.  I don’t use the word cringey lightly – but that “I’m his therapist” exchange between Kaladin and Ishar will always overshadow all the cool cosmere lore we got in this book (mostly in the last 200 pages), at least in my mind.

That’s hard to say, especially because I know that Brandon is trying very hard to be genuine (and apparently had professional sensitivity readers sign off on this), but “I deserve peace.  I deserve to be happy.  I will let myself enjoy living.” "think good thoughts and don’t think bad thoughts" picture of what “therapy” is just lands hollow for me as a practitioner of this way of helping people.

I’m not being unfair - literally a quote from the book:

Quote

“When the wrong thoughts come in, you need to be ready.  Not only to rebuff them, but to present the right thoughts instead.”

And Kaladin as a therapist?  Szeth introspected it best:

Quote

Szeth remained silent, worried that if he responded, he would invite more lecturing. 

Unfortunately, Kaladin kept going.

Kaladin kept going, which is inspiring when that means he’s the spear that didn’t break, or when he’s the man standing up in the face of adversity…but it’s the worst when he's the one who won’t stop spitting out every therapy cliché in the book.

Quote

“This ‘therapy’ is too easy,” the spren said.  “All you do is sit and listen, then tell me things I already kind of know.”

“Remarkable,” Kaladin said, “how little we do things like that though, isn’t it?”

AND that’s my cue to stop going, because this is a long post.

The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer will be books I recommend to anyone anywhere (and have had clients share that these books help inspire their own journey of recovery; they’ve certainly helped in my own journey).  Rhythm of War is fine if you’re ready to shift away from inspirational character story to more fantasy in the same universe (and has a couple inspirational moments peppered in there).

I sadly can’t say the same about Wind and Truth.

[boonboon]

Great thread and analysis.
As an expert, what do you think about Sanderson trying to convince readers that forced Shallan/Adolin marriage is a good thing?
From my perspective, Shallan is portrayed as a girl with "daddy issues" (roughly). Clinging to Adolin, being reluctant about killing Mraize, because "yes, he's drinking and beating me threatened me and my family, but he's not so bad.", etc. And I know that, sometimes, meeting a good partner can help in healing childhood traumas, but I honestly don't see any of that in S/A scenes. Adolin looks much more like a "yes guy" than someone who really understands and accepts Shallan. 

[Sedside she/her]

2 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

Wind and Truth, in contrast to this, mashes together a bunch of generalizations/boilerplate wisdom about life and presents this as “therapy” – and not just any therapy, but newly invented first of its kind therapy that’s so effective that it heals a lifetime of intensely pervasive trauma in Szeth, thousands of years of trauma in Nale, and supernaturally-Odium Juice-fueled thousands of years of trauma in Ishar.  In less than 10 days (and in less than a few moments/exchanges for some of these characters).

Thank you for this thread and detailed analysis, it is always interesting to know the opinion of a professional! It looks like this book is all about simplifying everything. You wrote in the other thread that the destination of this book is fine, but the journey is not, and I agree with that. We needed to have Herald of Therapy - we got him, no matter how we got there, let's just imagine he invented therapy in ten days and did it perfectly. We needed to see Roshar's backstory, but no time or desire to properly "show not tell" it - here we go, visions in SR with our characters who got there for the first time suddenly being perfectly able to navigate it, while Wit himself is scared of that place. Same with Jasnah cancelling slavery and inventing democracy or whatever she wants to establish there, and other drastic changes in social or religious structure. These processes took hundreds of years in our society with wars, rebellions, assassinations, and so on, but here we go, just a stroke of the pen and all of it is achieved.

[IntentAwesome]

I appreciate this analysis. I think it captures my frustrations pretty well, although I'm not an expert.

It meant so much to me to read about Kaladin in Way of Kings because he was portrayed not as a character who was defined by depression, but as a character who was an incredible leader, who fought and accomplished so much, and who also had depression. I think this was the first I encountered a character with depression who wasn't the classic, melancholic Eeyore-type character.

But Kaladin has increasingly been defined by his depression, and that's been disappointing. 

On the one hand, I appreciate that an author is tackling mental health in a really popular fantasy series. On the other hand, as you mentioned, the therapy felt very much like beating a dead horse with a very blunt instrument. It was glaring, lacking in nuance, and overshadowed better story elements.

Edited January 3, 2025 by IntentAwesome

[Nitpicking]

Thank you. I'm not a therapist, but I said a few of these things myself. I'm surprised Syl didn't use the "You can do therapy because you could always do therapy" nonsense excuse from Way of Kings. Yeah, that has been bugging me for all these years.

Can someone make Brandon read this? (I know the answer is "No," but I had to say it.)

[elihaun]

I have said it before, but I think this book (and rhythm of war to be honest) should have been written and then sat on for a few years.  The issue is that now Brandon Sanderson does not have time to REALLY revise the series.  the bones of the books are still great, but I feel that we have put such a 'schedule' on the series that kaladin helping others in the towers HAS to evolve into him becoming a therapist.  instead of taking a year to think about it and rewrite it in a way that is not 'on the brow', Sanderson just had to write it like this.  

the same OUTCOME could have happened if kaladin had gone with seeth not to be his therapist, but to make sure the mission got finished.  It would have done the same thing. What if Kaladin didn't TELL seeth to 'follow his heart' and question orders, but instead is showed Kaladin following his heart and questioning orders with seeth watching?  same outcome could have been achieved, but it would have been more organic and less 'preachy'.  An adage in videogames and movies that works well in book is 'show, don't tell".  I just feel that this book did a lot more talking about personal growth that it actually showed personal growth, unlike the first 2 books in the series.

Edited January 3, 2025 by elihaun

[Aredor]

I remember a wob somewhere that says something like "I wanted a main character with depression, but I didn't want the story to be about the depression." Well, now that's just a complete lie. The entire Kaladin story has shifted from him trying to do the best he could do into him delivering the worst line in the Cosmere. "I'm his therapist," indeed. The story has become ABOUT his depression, not about him. I feel like RoW did such a good job with this, and then... sigh.

I also feel like the series has become sort of a mental health museum. Every character's got to have something, right? They've all got to deal with their mental health! But that happens so often that the story and plot now "has" to revolve around their conditions. 

Here's to hoping it gets better in the later books. 

[Isilel]

12 hours ago, Sedside said:

but no time or desire to properly "show not tell" it - here we go, visions in SR with our characters who got there for the first time suddenly being perfectly able to navigate it, while Wit himself is scared of that place.

 

How was it not showing, though?  As to navigating SR, Our Heroes had advantages over Hoid being Bondsmiths or having Enlightened spren. Though I am unsure why those last are so adept there, granted. And it is unclear whether Shallan's group would have been able to leave without BAM's help. We saw what happened to Melishi, whose bond to the Sibling was weak - SR is plenty dangerous.

 

12 hours ago, Sedside said:

Same with Jasnah cancelling slavery and inventing democracy or whatever she wants to establish there, and other drastic changes in social or religious structure.

 

Democracy and elective government concepts appeared in Classical Antiquity iRL. They are hardly modern inventions. Slavery was abolished in France in the 14th century per royal decree of Louis X, but as we know it came back in various forms later. Some forms of elective government already exist on Roshar or have existed in the past - I don't see why Jasnah couldn't plausibly attempt to establish one.

Frankly, I have been expecting a proper religious upheaval since WoR and I am rather disappointed that we didn't get one. Ditto that everyone seemingly so easily and calmly accepted the fall of Alethkar and loss of their families and property there. It feels like only Kholins and Kaladin cared, when most Alethi should have been utterly frantic about it. But again, this started in WoR...

 

12 hours ago, Sedside said:

 

These processes took hundreds of years in our society with wars, rebellions, assassinations, and so on, but here we go, just a stroke of the pen and all of it is achieved.

 

What makes you think that it is achieved? And that what you mention won't follow? Though, admittedly, Radiants would be more difficult to get rid of and are more directly and obviously valuable to their society than comparable figures iRL. Particularly Jasnah herself, once she learns proper Elsecalling and becomes their only door to the outer world. Also, even iRL, sometimes drastical changes in society happen very quickly. Compare and contrast Europe in 1914 to the one in 1920, for example.

Edited January 3, 2025 by Isilel

[Sedside she/her]

24 minutes ago, Isilel said:

How was it not showing, though?  As to navigating SR, Our Heroes had advantages over Hoid being Bondsmiths or having Enlightened spren. Though I am unsure why those last are so adept there, granted. And it is unclear whether Shallan's group would have been able to leave without BAM's help. We saw what happened to Melishi, whose bond to the Sibling was weak - SR is plenty dangerous.

A flashback sequence with the overall message "now see what happened" reads more like telling than showing to me. Whereas it was a vision, so it could be considered as "showing", it was a single huge info dump with no real investigation or danger for our characters, like it was in WoK with Shallan and Jasnah discovering the nature of Voidbrinders (investigation), or in WoR with Shallan discovering the path to Narak (danger). That's why I read it as tell, not show, though technically you are right.

27 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Democracy and elective government concepts appeared in Classical Antiquity iRL.

Ancient democracy was nothing like the modern democracy, as well as the ancient republic. Though I am not going to dive into this discussion, I am not an expert historian, I just had my commonplace feeling about how drastic social changes should happen, and so it felt somewhat unrealistic to me how easily it happened in the book. I will just assume that I am wrong and you are right, this is not the biggest problem of this book.

[Heilven he/him]

15 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

Wind and Truth, in contrast to this, mashes together a bunch of generalizations/boilerplate wisdom about life and presents this as “therapy” – and not just any therapy, but newly invented first of its kind therapy that’s so effective that it heals a lifetime of intensely pervasive trauma in Szeth, thousands of years of trauma in Nale, and supernaturally-Odium Juice-fueled thousands of years of trauma in Ishar.  In less than 10 days (and in less than a few moments/exchanges for some of these characters).

I take a lot of issue with this framing, as this is just clearly not what happens.

None of the characters are fully healed within this book, they more or less just took large steps towards healing. Szeth has had the same messaging for his entire life, and never had anyone else care enough to tell him to care about himself. Szeth isn't suddenly fine, he just steps far enough forward that he is able to think for himself and no longer believe that his own death is right. Nale certainly wasn't fixed, he could barely walk after being confronted by Kaladin. Kaladin forced him to look at his own contradictions and see his ultimate failures for the last few thousand years, which crushed him into realizing he was wrong. If anything Nale is less capable after WaT, but in a better position for healing.

As for Ishar, we aren't able to see the full effects of what happened. What we know is that part of the herald's madness came from Ishar's corruption due to Odium's power. I think that that must have caused them to align somewhat with the opposite of their intents, rather than with their intent like what we usually expect out of cognitive shadows. The heralds weren't healed of their issues because Kaladin banished that corruption, they still have their few thousand years of failures that they have to deal with.

15 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

"think good thoughts and don’t think bad thoughts"

This also misconstrues the message that Kaladin/Sanderson presents. It's about not letting yourself be swallowed up by the "bad thoughts" and presenting affirmations to avoid falling into pits. In addition, I don't think Sanderson means to imply that anyone would hear the advice given and immediately consider that as something they should due. After all, you first have to accept that the "bad thoughts" aren't true. Kaladin's explanation of "soldier thoughts" was meant as a metaphor to Szeth to explain why doing this explicitly would not be an immediate solution, but rather an ongoing process. In addition, the use of "right" and "wrong" was clearly meant to appeal to Szeth who cares very deeply about right and wrong.

I certainly understand that none of the concepts that were displayed were all that complex and were a very baby's first introduction to mental health. But Kaladin has quite literally only done this for max 1 month at this point, and is just sharing what has worked for him. I would agree with you if come book 6 we learn that Kaladin's methods haven't changed or progressed whatsoever and yet the heralds are all doing significantly better, but right now that is up in the air.

15 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

• Let’s Just Talk about It (Find someone.  Talk. Grow. It’s worth the effort, all right?)
• Just Listen (this isn’t the part where you talk.  Just listen…)
• Eat Stew Together (the mythical power of stew)
• Seeing Someone Else Do It Helps Inspire Others to Do It (But stand. Kaladin. DID)
• Think Differently (Dark Brain/Warrior Thoughts)
• Life Isn’t Always Black and White (I believe a man can be both)
• Make Your Own Choices (Tell Your Own Story)
• Try Something Different (How is that working out for you?)
• It Might Not Fix It, But It Might Make It Better
• Your Past/Trauma Isn’t an Excuse, but an Explanation
• Don’t Give Up (You have to practice it every day)
• Don’t Be a Bully (This attitude you put on?  You think it makes you appear strong, but it doesn’t)
• Just Be Better (Do better – try to fix the problem)
• Perspective Makes a Difference (I find it so much easier from the air)
• Focus on the Now (We need to focus on the now)
• We All Need Help Sometimes (Sometimes even ruthless assassins need a hug)
• You are Not a Thing (You. Are. Not. A. Thing.)
• Self-Care is Important (You’ll do more good if you take care of yourself as well)
• How Do You Feel? (SO. MUCH. HOW DO YOU FEEL could a more cliché phrase be used)
• We’re The Same, You and I (I’ve had that same problem; I’ve felt the same)
• So much softly spoken whispering is exchanged in this book it warrants its own bullet point (that's what therapy is folks - whispering softly)

I'd additionally like to ask about your list of "mental health stuff" as you put it. "Just listen" I took as more of a callback to Wit's stories, with "This isn't the part where you talk". Many of these are also used specifically for Szeth and Nightblood, who's main issues revolve around taking agency in their own lives.

"We're The Same, You and I" Was shown specifically to not be a catchall method, as it absolutely did not work for Szeth. I thought this showed Kaladin's inexperience, as he had mostly relied upon helping people who had very similar problems to him.

"It Might Not Fix It, But It Might Make It Better" and "Just Be Better" were also explicitly the message of Oathbringer, so did you have a problem with them then?

For the rest, I suppose I would like to ask if you think that the messages presented are wrong, either to Szeth/Nale or to the audience. If your issue with the items on this list isn't the individual efficacy but rather the idea that you wouldn't use every one of the concepts generically, I would naturally like to point out my argument about "We're The Same, You and I", but also I would like to ask for more specifics surrounding what about these concepts aren't correct to present to Szeth/Nale or why it would be unrealistic for Kaladin to present them and/or unrealistic for Szeth/Nale to respond to them positively.

I understand that these are somewhat generic presentations of therapy, but from my non-professional opinion they seem more like the basic foundation of therapy methods than inaccurate portrayals of reality. It is one thing when you have a character in a modern setting who goes to a therapist and receives tremendously generic advice, but this is a different context. Kaladin is not a professional therapist with decades of psychotherapy research to consult, he's a guy with some life experience. Of course all he can come up with is the somewhat generic stuff.

I do understand why you would react to therapy being shown in this generic way considering the cultural background of therapy being shown in ways similar to this in other media. But I think the context is different, in that Kaladin does not represent the modern therapist. To imply that modern therapy is nothing more than what we see in WaT would certainly be insulting, but I really don't think that's what is happening here. I don't think Kaladin was implied to have been a perfect success in his first attempt, and I don't think we are meant to believe that he has learned everything he needs to. I really hope that Sanderson doesn't skip past all the time that the Heralds spend in the spiritual realm, and we actually get to see Kaladin and the Heralds growing together, since as Kaladin is right now I do think it would be unrealistic for him to be able to appropriately help all of the Heralds with their issues. 

[VirtuousTraveller]

To illustrate just how frustrating this shift is (and I say this as someone who loves the cosmere and deeply appreciates the worlds and characters and stories that Brandon has given us all), I created some images using the incredible artwork of Mav Deckard, Dan dos Santos, Antti Hakosaari, and Michael Whelan. 

Remember Kaladin, who in the early books of the Stormlight Archive, overcame incredible adversity to become a leader we know and love?  Think about these early Kaladin quotes:

Quote

Syl was silent for a moment.  "Do you want to be a miracle?"

"No," Kaladin whispered. "But for them, I will be."

-The Way of Kings

 

"You sent him to the sky to die, assassin,’ Kaladin said, Stormlight puffing from his lips, ‘but the sky and the winds are mine. I claim them, as I now claim your life."

-Words of Radiance

 

“Ten spears go to battle," he whispered, "and nine shatter. Did the war forge the one that remained? No, Amaran. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.”

-Oathbringer

Those moments evoke emotions for me even as I type them.  Now consider something Kaladin says in Chapter 35 of Wind and Truth:

This does not sound like the voice of the Kaladin we met in the early books of the Stormlight Archive.  It also waxes mental health philosophical, with vocabulary that feels awkward and out of place.  Funny enough, Kaladin says this trying to convince Szeth to talk to him, and Szeth calls him out about it.

This next image illustrates a very on the nose generalization about how "perspective changes the way you see things" in Chapter 35:

"Oh, when we zoom out of the weeds of our day to day life, and examine things holistically from a different perspective, you can see so much more."  Hang that inspirational poster on my office wall.

Actually, for the inspirational cat poster, look no further than Chapter 10 (Book Quartermaster, which in my opinion reads VERY much like this new voice of humor and preachy-ness that is becoming more and more distracting from Brandon's stories; I know I'm cramming a lot of sentence in these parentheses, but Chapter 10 includes a he he moment about feeding grass to spren genitals ho ho ha - anyways, back to that cat poster):

Wait, I've heard this somewhere before...

Considering this is the climax of a tirade Kaladin levies against the Book-Quartermaster, consider how the moment plays out, with Kaladin introspecting and then eventually shouting:

Quote

Introspection:  His annoyance at this woman simmered into something hotter.  He opened his mouth, a dozen different options springing to his mind.  She wanted a scene?  Oh, he could make a scene.

Shouting:  This attitude you put on?  You think it makes you appear strong, but it doesn’t.  Instead it makes very clear that something is wrong with you.  Look at Syl’s effort.  You should be thrilled!  Who berates a person for bettering herself?  Who sells books and stationary, yet feels the need to undercut someone overcoming enormous physical limitations to use them?

No subtext, just spren genitals and an on the nose sermon about bullying being bad.

I find these last images most illustrative of this shift in not just the way mental health is portrayed in the Stormlight Archive, but in the quality of writing some folks have pointed to as a critique of this book.

Look at this exchange between Kaladin and Ishar in Wind and Truth Chapter 33:

Man, that Ishar quote about being the conflux of all darkness and sorrow was a POWERFUL hit of the "Herald insanity" we've seen and heard about throughout the series so far.  It captured the intimidating nature of this "god king" in Tukar, who was unpredictable and unknowable, which had the air of mystery suspense thriller from the first moment we learned about him. This started SO GOOD.

But then, Kaladin's response to this is such a wet noodle, and even worse - it's the most cliche therapy-speak phrase in history, and even includes an "um," an ellipses, and a dash.

Also, this exchange isn't over:

What makes this moment even more ridiculous is that Kaladin himself, after saying this, thinks to himself, "Storms.  Did that sound silly?"

Yes Kaladin.  Yes, it sounded very silly.

As I mentioned above, Chapter 139 really let me down, and I think objectively it pulled the entire story/book/potentially even the series as a whole down too.  It starts with such an epic moment that could have been - that SHOULD have been - a character and even series defining moment for the Stormlight Archive's favorite bridgeman:

THIS IMAGE IS SO GOOD.  It captures that theme of "a man standing up," even in the face of adversity, even in the face of overwhelming odds with no guarantee of success.  THIS is the Kaladin we got to know and love in the early Stormlight books, and THIS was the start of a great moment that would end with him swearing the fifth ideal.  That would go even further to becoming a new Herald, another one who would not break, because he would get to protect not just other people, but Roshar (and the cosmere) itself.  The Herald of Perseverance.  The Herald of Resilience.  IT WAS SO CLOSE TO BEING AMAZING.  We were robbed, folks.

Because less than one page later, we get this:

Such a balloon pop to an otherwise impressive scene.

6 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Can someone make Brandon read this? (I know the answer is "No," but I had to say it.)

If Brandon were to read this, I would first of all be incredibly honored, because he's meant a great deal to my life (beyond just writing stories that I like).  He's helped me grow as a reader, as a person, as a helping professional, as a friend, and as a human being.  I would say "thank you for being who you are, and for making the world (and many worlds) a better place."

What I would hope he would hear in reading all of this is that as much as we appreciate him being a workhorse author, I think it's time to really hone in on tightening up the books before releasing them.  I KNOW there was a ton of work that went into Wind and Truth, and it had a lot of great ideas and pieces that are clearly still coming from the brain of a creative juggernaut.  That said, the timeline/schedule of these books would benefit from more time.  I've seen Brandon mention he's trying to cut back on the commitments he makes to write certain things because he knows he needs to fit all this into the much-deserved successful life he's had so far.

I hope that the next leg of the journey gives Brandon a chance to refocus, and come back even stronger in what comes ahead!

[VirtuousTraveller]

24 minutes ago, Heilven said:

If your issue with the items on this list isn't the individual efficacy but rather the idea that you wouldn't use every one of the concepts generically, I would naturally like to point out my argument about "We're The Same, You and I", but also I would like to ask for more specifics surrounding what about these concepts aren't correct to present to Szeth/Nale or why it would be unrealistic for Kaladin to present them and/or unrealistic for Szeth/Nale to respond to them positively.

I think it's the firehose volume of these concepts that are repeatedly presented to us as the reader, over and over again, in the mix of all of these other concepts that likewise are repeated over and over again.  It becomes distracting and detracts from the moments that are happening in the story.

7 minutes ago, Heilven said:

"We're The Same, You and I" Was shown specifically to not be a catchall method, as it absolutely did not work for Szeth. I thought this showed Kaladin's inexperience, as he had mostly relied upon helping people who had very similar problems to him.

It was shown to be ineffective in Chapter 35, but it happens repeatedly in this book.  Here are some examples (just from the Kaladin-Szeth plot line):

• Chapter 35 - Szeth:  "You're trying to imply that we're the same.  You and me."  Kaladin:  "I think we are, Szeth."
• Chapter 64 - Kaladin:  "We're a lot alike, you know."  Szeth:  "We are?"
• Chapter 108 - "I hear you," Kaladin said.  "I've had that same problem."
• Chapter 119 - Nale:  "I feel it, Stormblessed," Nale whispered. "The man I used to be. The man who heard the songs of Roshar long ago. I...am not him.  I remember him."  Kaladin:  "I know," Kaladin said. "I've felt the same.
• Chapter 139 - Kaladin to Ishar:  "What you feel is what I feel."

7 minutes ago, Heilven said:

"It Might Not Fix It, But It Might Make It Better" and "Just Be Better" were also explicitly the message of Oathbringer, so did you have a problem with them then?

No, I thought Oathbringer did a great job articulating its messaging about forward momentum and not allowing the past to define who we are.  I felt this message was really hammered over and over in Wind and Truth, to the point that it was telling us what happens, rather than showing us what happens.

• Chapter 6 - Dalinar:  “Take a person from the darkness and show them that light still exists.  It won’t fix everything, but it does make a difference.”
• Chapter 33 - Kaladin:  It didn't banish the darkness, but active thoughts, as counters to it, really did help.
• Chapter 33 - Kaladin:  The darkness was still there and wanted him to believe things would never change, but this little victory proved the opposite.  Because while he might never be rid of the thoughts permanently, he was done letting them win.
• Chapter 110 - Then, Szeth reached out a trembling hand to Nale.  "We can help you," he said softly.  "We can't make it all better, but we can help."
• Chapter 139 - Kaladin:  "Your pain, your sorrow - your darkness - doesn't transform because another experienced it.  Still, it seems to help, doesn't it?"
• Chapter 140 - Kaladin:  It wouldn’t heal them, lifting this dark cloud.  Their wounds stretched back millennia before Ishar’s terrible decision.  However, this might help open a path to healing.

It's not that these concepts are untrue, it's that they're shoved in the face of the reader nonstop throughout the book.  That feels very different from the first books in the Stormlight Archive, where concepts regarding mental health are presented with better subtext, nuance, and alignment with character and plot.

[Returned he/him]

I agree with your assessment of the relative shallowness of portrayals of mental health, as well as its increased prominence in WaT. I'm not sure I feel that this is uniquely a problem for mental health depiction but rather an instance of broader changes in writing style. Do you feel that way as well, @VirtuousTraveller, or do you think that in more recent releases the mental health piece is distinct from the writing outside of it?

As for the specifics of what I feel is more shallow, I think that it really comes down to three major elements:

1. Writing practices/scheduling (as @elihaun described very nicely). The refining and polish that might make some issues better just isn't happening like it used to.
2. The desire to highlight various topics makes it harder to weave those topics in more subtly or naturally. These topics stand out by intention, for good or ill.
3. A lot of epic fantasy adventure tropes and trappings don't necessarily translate well to some topics. People like the villains to be defeated and the heroes victorious in all areas. But depression sucks, can be difficult to address, and doesn't necessarily make for compelling reading when positioned directly alongside flying soldiers getting into magic swordfights.

I think that (1) is the biggest issue, as more care and craft can make virtually anything interesting and satisfying to read about (subjective tastes notwithstanding), and Sanderson has demonstrated that he has enough of both to do things like that well. Recent releases have been technically fine but have lost some of the subtlety and organic-feeling development that earlier works displayed.

(2) is a problem which I think might have been exacerbated by how long the books already are. Renarin could have used a lot more scenes to develop his character than we got, but they weren't available (for whatever reason). So over four books we get that he's smart, shy, withdrawn, frustrated at his poor fit into Alethi society, and unconfident all woven in with other events. Many readers believed that he might have autism based on his portrayal, and that was later confirmed in a WoB, but it wasn't necessarily obvious. In WaT we get a lot more specificity about the autism via explicit,  expository narration alone, in relatively few pages and fewer scenes, and it is much harder to miss than in books 1-4-- it's the only thing happening in those sections. The contrast with how Kaladin's depression was introduced and developed in books 1-3 is pretty stark.

(3) is the hardest issue to resolve, to my thinking. Treating depression is difficult and generally not rapid (as is my understanding, I am not an expert). The books glossed over the actual work of Kaladin becoming a peerless fighter with a spear, instead describing that he had spent countless hours practicing it in ways that most readers could easily conceive. Then we just accept that he's the best, even to a supernatural degree. That probably doesn't work as well for depression (practicing spear forms doesn't necessarily have an obvious analogue in mental health therapy) and would feel hollow (a serious problem is introduced and developed with deliberate care, then "fixed" off camera with a handwave). Plus there is a personal experience angle: far more people deal with depression than try to become expert spear fighters or battle with magical opponents bent on their annihilation. Issues with mental health portrayal will be far more obvious to many than would be the case for issues with magical effects. We don't have all that many threads discussing how shallow Soulcasting seems to be.

It strikes me as a halfway problem. With Kaladin things started as a story about big events, dealt with by a character who suffered from depression in ways both relevant to those events and not, but wasn't a story about depression. It then largely became a story about depression but without the structure or underpinnings to tell it as well as the fantasy warrior story that was already underway, right at the same time that the fantasy warrior aspect of Kaladin dropped off sharply. More pages to set up and address the topic more fully and less explicit emphasis on "this is real-world clinical depression!" (or similar, for other characters) would have served this plotline well and would have represented the refining/polish angle. Instead it's a rougher presentation of the ideas, on par with the general trend in more recent Cosmere books.

Edited January 3, 2025 by Returned

[MagicMaggot]

I think a part of it is that frontloading Kaladin as the guy to talk to about mental health might have been a bad idea. Kaladin being there trying to help and trying things out is one thing, but having Dalinar and Wit basically tell us that as far as Roshar is concerned, Kaladin is the expert? And yes, throwing in the therapist term, so that no one could mistake that this was actually supposed to be an attempted professional treatment? I think that just made it harder to write it well. I don't think this is supposed to be read as a realistic depiction of therapy, so blatantly inviting the comparison seems like a misfire to me, and the reader can't really be blamed for judging it as if it were. 

I don't mind Kaladin trying to relate to everyone through his own experience - what else does he have? The man can't even read. I don't mind him sharing things that might not necessarily work for many people, but that might have felt like they worked for him, like "soldier thoughts". I don't mind him having a hard time maneuvering when to speak, when to listen, and what to say. He is an amateur. And I don't really mind his bumbling attempts working well enough for the plot, because he is being moved by players and forces with magical precognition that help him be at the right place at the right time with the right stories and the right state of mind. That comes with the fantasy territory. 

But none of it works as soon as I try to see him as a professional, and the best the planet can offer.

And yes, the chosen language certainly didn't help,

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

(2) is a problem which I think might have been exacerbated by how long the books already are. Renarin could have used a lot more scenes to develop his character than we got, but they weren't available (for whatever reason). So over four books we get that he's smart, shy, withdrawn, frustrated at his poor fit into Alethi society, and unconfident all woven in with other events. Many readers believed that he might have autism based on his portrayal, and that was later confirmed in a WoB, but it wasn't necessarily obvious. In WaT we get a lot more specificity about the autism via explicit,  expository narration alone, in relatively few pages and fewer scenes, and it is much harder to miss than in books 1-4-- it's the only thing happening in those sections. The contrast with how Kaladin's depression was introduced and developed in books 1-3 is pretty stark.

I think this #2 is really representative of the wider problem.  And someone else said up thread too - it's almost like the book has become some kind of museum (archive? ha) of various mental health issues.  Why did Renarin need to have autism?  Couldn't he have just been a neurotypical individual who is smart, shy, and withdrawn?  We as readers could speculate - maybe he's somewhere on the spectrum and Sanderson might in his own mind have an answer to that question.  Maybe I'm totally ignorant to these things - but I felt that the introduction of his sexuality also came out of nowhere.  And having a scene with Shallan fangirling over Renarin and Rlain getting together just feels excessive.  It's all just way too on the nose - it feels like fan service for group of fans that I'm just not a part of.

10 hours ago, elihaun said:

the same OUTCOME could have happened if kaladin had gone with seeth not to be his therapist, but to make sure the mission got finished.  It would have done the same thing. What if Kaladin didn't TELL seeth to 'follow his heart' and question orders, but instead is showed Kaladin following his heart and questioning orders with seeth watching?  same outcome could have been achieved, but it would have been more organic and less 'preachy'.  An adage in videogames and movies that works well in book is 'show, don't tell".  I just feel that this book did a lot more talking about personal growth that it actually showed personal growth, unlike the first 2 books in the series.

Totally agree - this would have absolutely been the right way to handle this if that's where Sanderson wanted the story to go.  No hamfisted "I'm your therapist."  Just - I'm a dude who is trying to help you out because I care about you and our mission.  Dalinar sends Kaladin because he knows Kaladin struggled with his own depression and suspects he can help Szeth and maybe (if he's lucky) the Heralds.  In my opinion, for Dalinar to make the mission explicitly about Kaladin giving therapy to Ishar was also really on the nose.  Rather than phrasing it as "Your mission is to fix his mental health", it would have come across way better as "See what is wrong with the Heralds, try to bring them over to our side."  Most of what happened could have been the same and still leaned in a direction toward promoting mental health awareness, the importance of therapy, etc, but framed better in a fantasy story and less on the nose.  And - if we don't specifically call Kaladin a "therapist" it doesn't draw those direct comparisons to a real life profession.  It keeps us firmly in the real of a fantasy novel where we can understand that the depiction of mental health and its treatment is not going to be entirely accurate.

I hope this is just Sanderson writing faster and not having the time for nuance.  But I'm honestly not so sure.  I think that he has just shifted his tastes and style in a direction that I don't personally enjoy.  WaT is the first mainline Sanderson book I didn't buy immediately on release and I'm still only about 75% done.  It is still a really good book, for all its faults.  But the trend is moving away from my tastes.  Maybe it's just me getting older.

[Fractalfire]

22 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

“How?”  Ishar repeated.  “What are you?”  He gestured toward Szeth.  “Are you…are you his spren?  His god?”

“No,” Kaladin said.  “I’m his therapist.”

Ishar blinked.  “…What is that?”

“I honestly have no idea,” Kaladin admitted.

 

Good god, it somehow gets worse!?

I'm only halfway through this brick -- I stopped about three weeks ago when the Kaladin therapy speak got so ridiculously bad ("I deserve peace. I deserve to be happy." What's next, Live Laugh Love as the fifth oath?) that it was either stop for a while or throw the book across the room and risk mortal injury to poor bystanders. So here I am on the forum snooping to avoid reading about more spren genitals, or worse another conversation with the Sword of Death by Cringe. 

The humor plus the therapy talk has reminded me of a quote from Andrew Lang about terrible victorian fairy stories:

Quote

"In the preface to the Lilac Fairy Book he refers to the tales of tiresome contemporary authors: “they always begin with a little boy or girl who goes out and meets the fairies of polyanthuses and gardenias and apple-blossom... These fairies try to be funny and fail; or they try to preach and succeed.”

At this point, I'm honestly not sure if I want to finish this or not.

 I'm told the second part picks up, but this does not seem promising. 

Edited January 4, 2025 by Fractalfire

[Nitpicking]

46 minutes ago, Fractalfire said:

 I'm told the second part picks up, but this does not seem promising. 

I've criticized the book, but it isn't dire, for me. It's just flawed. It's better (again, for me) than Rhythm of War. At least it doesn't drag so much. I just skimmed all the "saying mottoes is the same as psychotherapy" plot.

[Curnia]

I appreciate your analysis. I'm sorry to hear the book didn't land for you in regard to your profession and it's representation. I do have a question though. Were you ever or have you become the perfect therapist? Not to derail your valid and justified points, and I'm no therapist, but Kaladin is at the start of his journey as a therapist. He isn't going to have a complex understanding about therapy or what it means to be a therapist. He is running off the notion that Wit gave him. Kaladin appears to be Roshar's first therapist. If the general overall consensus you got of mental health messaging in the book was underwhelming or not as deep as previous books I totally get that but I've never known anyone in any profession naturally doing all a jobs tasks expertly within the first year let alone a couple weeks.

[Sedside she/her]

9 hours ago, Fractalfire said:

At this point, I'm honestly not sure if I want to finish this or not.

 I'm told the second part picks up, but this does not seem promising. 

If you want to know my opinion, I've only felt emotions in one particular moment in Kaladin's storyline (and it's not in the end, it's day 9), though I think I've only felt it because I love Kaladin too much that this book couldn't completely unmake him for me despite all efforts. The second moment was with Jasnah, but this particular moment is very controversal. And a little bit of emotion regarding Adolin, but I don't like Adolin in general, so if you like him you will probably be more pleased then I was. That's it. No more emotions other than cringe and disappointment for me

Edited January 4, 2025 by Sedside

[Nitpicking]

6 hours ago, Curnia said:

I appreciate your analysis. I'm sorry to hear the book didn't land for you in regard to your profession and it's representation. I do have a question though. Were you ever or have you become the perfect therapist? Not to derail your valid and justified points, and I'm no therapist, but Kaladin is at the start of his journey as a therapist. He isn't going to have a complex understanding about therapy or what it means to be a therapist. He is running off the notion that Wit gave him. Kaladin appears to be Roshar's first therapist. If the general overall consensus you got of mental health messaging in the book was underwhelming or not as deep as previous books I totally get that but I've never known anyone in any profession naturally doing all a jobs tasks expertly within the first year let alone a couple weeks.

The part that frustrated me personally wasn't that he was still learning what a therapist is, and what he could do to help people. Just as you say, that is absolutely realistic and makes perfect sense.

What frustrated me was how his fumbling around and just sort of being there for Szeth and Nale worked better than any real talk therapy in the history of humanity has ever worked in real life. It's as if, the day after Hoid gave him the flute, he was the greatest musician in the history of the Cosmere. Only better.

[VirtuousTraveller]

6 hours ago, Curnia said:

Were you ever or have you become the perfect therapist? Not to derail your valid and justified points, and I'm no therapist, but Kaladin is at the start of his journey as a therapist.

No one is perfect, and I’m not claiming that my problem with this book is that Kaladin isn’t presented as an effective therapist or somehow the concepts presented aren’t effective ever for anyone.

My problem is that Kaladin is charged to become the world’s first therapist (like, a day after throwing himself off the tower in Rhythm of War), and then he doesn’t bumble through figuring out what it means to help someone else psychologically.  Yes, there are one off lines here and there when Kaladin is frustrated that he doesn’t know what he’s doing etc, but that doesn’t cover the fact that his story of “figuring it out” is a ton of cliches about counseling and therapy that don’t feel organically discovered at all.

As an minor example, the concept of the mind existing in the brain - this feels like a modern understanding of consciousness, sensation, and perception in comparison to the rest of the science on Roshar (especially since prior to Kaladin, the medical community just locked people up who had mental health issues).  In Mistborn Era 1, for example, soothing and rioting weren’t presented in terms of neurochemical changes or a hacking of the autonomous nervous system - it’s magic and people feel different, which fits the setting.

As a bigger issue, asking someone “how does that make you feel?” or “confront bad thoughts with good thoughts” is built on an assumption that there is a clear interaction between thoughts, feelings, and behavior, and it reads like something you’d read in a “Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Dummies” book.  Concepts in our own world that are only as modern as the 20th century.

14 hours ago, Returned said:

I agree with your assessment of the relative shallowness of portrayals of mental health, as well as its increased prominence in WaT. I'm not sure I feel that this is uniquely a problem for mental health depiction but rather an instance of broader changes in writing style. Do you feel that way as well, @VirtuousTraveller, or do you think that in more recent releases the mental health piece is distinct from the writing outside of it?

I  agree - it’s mostly a writing/style problem that does a poor job in general, and in this thread I’m tackling how that portrays the mental health themes that were previously executed more effectively.  I can’t tell you how many times I’ve quoted “the most important step a man can take” when working with my clients (it’s been a lot).

14 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

But none of it works as soon as I try to see him as a professional, and the best the planet can offer.

Exactly my feeling too.  If the word “therapist” was cut entirely, and replaced with “healer,” or “helper,” or something less 20th century - I think that would have “fixed” some of my reactions to this.

9 hours ago, Fractalfire said:

At this point, I'm honestly not sure if I want to finish this or not.

 I'm told the second part picks up, but this does not seem promising. 

You should finish if you want my opinion.  It’s still a Stormlight book, and while we all have that one family member that makes us groan when we see them around the holidays, it isn’t so bad that you stop inviting them.  It’s like Kaladin always says - “Try harder, because with great power comes great responsibility.  Be authentic and write your own story.  Speak your truth.”

(Too soon )

I will say, when I eventually reread this (which won’t be until the next Stormlight book is released), I’ll be curious if I enjoy PIECES of this story more once I’ve had time to come to terms with it being the canonized story we got.  I don’t think I’ll ever enjoy the writing/style issues, or the pieces that deal superficially with mental health.  But I think it’s definitely worth finishing I liked 95% of the destination, just not the journey.

Edited January 4, 2025 by VirtuousTraveller

[VirtuousTraveller]

14 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

I don't mind Kaladin trying to relate to everyone through his own experience - what else does he have? The man can't even read. I don't mind him sharing things that might not necessarily work for many people, but that might have felt like they worked for him, like "soldier thoughts". I don't mind him having a hard time maneuvering when to speak, when to listen, and what to say. He is an amateur.

YOU AND I know that Kaladin is a soldier, not a Palanaeum-educated scholar (albeit he does have some training as a surgeon on a pre-industrial-ish, medieval-ish world), but it’s like the story forgets that when we get to Wind and Truth.

Quote

“Do you ever look back and feel intimidated by the flow of time? Bemused how its current snatched you up and carried you away?”

Kaladin what are you talking about, this is a Wendy’s drive thru.

Szeth what are you talking about, this is Roshar Wendy’s won’t be invented by American business tycoon Dave Thomas until 1969 on Earth in Columbus, Ohio.

Brandon what are you talking about, this is a fantasy story why is there a Wendy’s here.

Readers, what are you talking about modern language has always been in my books my prose is accessible it’s translated magically so somethings may be hazy it’s the time dilution bubble I’ll be releasing a timeline soon.

Quote

Perhaps Szeth knew he was being baited, because he hesitated.  But Kaladin had tried cajoling and offering help.

This was another method of getting someone to talk: to assert something they found incorrect, and wait for them to explain why.

This is (clunkily written) psychologically aware introspection for an amateur.  It’s this kind of “Brandon, you copied that right out of a book on basic counseling strategies and techniques” stuff that feels out of place in Kaladin’s amateur “first of its kind” attempt at helping heal the minds of those who struggle journey in this book that hits so different (and to me, doesn’t hit well at all).

[KnightBlade]

One thing i will say, iz i get why they sped up the healing. Stories flow based on plot progression. IMO i get why they skipped over the years it would take to help Szeth get over his issues

[Nitpicking]

1 hour ago, KnightBlade said:

One thing i will say, iz i get why they sped up the healing. Stories flow based on plot progression. IMO i get why they skipped over the years it would take to help Szeth get over his issues

You're right.

But that doesn't make it anything but clumsy writing. Why not leave Szeth with his problems and have him learn to deal with them during the 10-year-gap? Why not lay the foundation of Kaladin-as-therapist in Words of Radiance? (That last one, because Brandon didn't outline that far in advance.) Why rush it, if rushing makes it so implausible, I guess is the summary? This book was already so long it physically couldn't be longer without being split into two physical volumes. Why not leave out the whole psychology part, which can't be made to make sense, and leave a little space for Lirin or Rushu to do anything? For Hesina to even appear? (Hesina and Rushu would probably have a fascinating conversation!)

[drunkenbotanist]

The plot of the book would have been helped by another page of dialogue about Kaladin at the very end realizing that he did a poor job when he tried to be a therapist, but helped/inspired people whenever he acted as an example. And then some of the on the nose joking could have been saved for "herald of second chances" being a little more ironic because he was going to need a do-over on the therapy.

 

But that's because Kaladin was a bad therapist came through as part of the plot to me. And I do think Brandon has an understanding that improvement is not based on sudden revelations. I agree with previous comments that there is no reason to think that Szeth, Nale, Ishar are "fixed"