Disappointed in wat a take back of oathbringer

[Sedside she/her]

5 hours ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

I can't speak for others, but part of my frustration with Adolin is that his seeming inability to do wrong, removes tension from the story for me. As gripping as I found his chapters during the siege, there was no single doubt in my mind that they would retake the Azish throne. Now to be fair, a predictable outcome can still be entertaining when it's executed well. However this has become a pattern with Adolin which for me is getting to much to ignore. He laments the loss of his foot and with the absence of stormlight, the likely reality that this loss is permanent. Will this impact his view of himself, his sense of self worth? Will he be forced to reevaluate his place in the world do to being prohibited from being a expert duelist and his passion for the art and swordplay in general?

This. I hoped he was going to be OC, but when I was reading this book I already knew it's not what happens. And so reading his story I was 100% sure he will both succeed with his task and stay alive. Actually, I thought he would also get his leg back, he didn't but whatever, no problem, he will defeat the fused with no normal weapon and no leg as well. In RoW it was Maya who saved him in 20v1 fight, which I also was sure he will be totally fine with, and here his armor spren suddenly protect their sir. Whatever.

5 hours ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

While I'd like to hope the answers to those questions being in the affirmative and that Brandon might give us a character that struggles with phantom pain and the mental trauma that comes with it. The established rack record implies the opposite. He has a shard prosthetic now so if anything he's going to even more awesome than before. It will not have a negative impact on him in  anyway, or offer a change in perspective. He's still going to be the endless bastion of support and wisdom for others, he will intuitively come to the right conclusions, make the correct decisions. He will bond Maya unwittingly because he's that special. During his trial in RoW he will end up making the best argument even though his legal knowledge is by his own admission scarce. Even his killing of Sadeas was ultimately the correct and moral thing to do. It's Dalinar's rigid and foolish adherence to oaths that was the problem.

He had been given firemoss to deal with pain, will he get addicted to it during the timeskip? Of course not. Or maybe he will off-screen, but then we will be just told that he had an addiction but overcame it with his endless power of will because he is so amazing and honorable.

He was a womanizer in the past, now he is away from his wife for who knows how many years, he is surrounded by women who adore him, he doesn't like oaths and don't want to sit on the chair until told he could stand, will he be cheating on Shallan? Of course not, because his wandering eyes had magically disappeared when he found The One, and his dislike of oaths is for any oath but this particular one. And as well, because he is honorable and amazing.

He is bad with words and doesn't understand Shallan's humor, she thinks he is goofy, will they have problems during years of long-distance relationship? Of course not, Adolin will magically become good with words and gain sense of humor. Because he is amazing. And honorable.

Will his Unoathed turn out to be something bad, because oaths are the cornerstone of Stormlight Archive? No, it will turn out that oaths are bad, because Adolin doesn't like oaths.

They all could have been points of character growth and a message from author to the readers, but instead we have a message "be born a noble rich prince, manage to be miraculously saved everytime something goes wrong, and you can do anything you want, murder anyone you want, throw any responsibility away, have a happy sunshine and rainbows marriage out of nowhere by arrangement, and your only problem in life will be to choose the right suit to wear today".

2 hours ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

Yes I'm well aware, in fact Kholinar and the gravity of its loss should have been weighing on his mind as soon as OB. As should the Battle of the Tower, were I think it was mentioned that a good number of his friends have been killed.

And he should have been eternally grateful to Kaladin and Bridge Four for saving his, his father's and their men's lives, but what does he do? Swings an unprotected Shardblade at him and kicks him in the chest while wearing Shardplate. Amazing honorable Adolin. And only after Kaladin saves his life two more times he goes for him to prison, where he can have bath, use cologne, chat with Shallan via spanreed, and also he can leave it anytime he wants. And everyone adores him for that. Yay, look how friendly he is with Kaladin, he helped him overcome his hatred for lighteyes!

2 hours ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

A stepping stone in that arc, could have been Kaladin reevaluating his killing of Heleran. Yes, Heleran was an enemy combatant. Kaladin doesn't owe him any pity or remorse especially with how brutally he killed Kaladin's squad mates. By all accounts Heleran was faceless monster deserving of death and yet later he meets someone who was deeply hurt by Heleran's passing. By all rights, he doesn't feel guilty for having killed her brother but can't ignore the pain he's caused to Shallan in having done so. Like I said it could have been used as a stepping stone where Kaladin starts to have doubts about fighting and being forced to kill.

My problem with Helaran is that at this point it could have just been any other random Shardbearer, and nothing would have changed for the story. While at the same time Helaran has so much hype from Shallan and her backstory, and that hype seems pointless too, because Helaran does literally nothing, except for giving Shallan drawing tools, what could have been done by someone else. Though I think this arc is not finished yet (but I don't know what to think of Sanderson's writing anymore, so it can be another annoying red herring or whatever), because Helaran was brought up several times in WaT, and also we have a bit of new info about him being a bastard, I believe. My crack theory is that he can be alive, though it will undermine the possible conflict here. But it looks like Sanderson doesn't like conflicts at all.

[Asininity]

16 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Minor point, but Devotion, Dominion, and Ambition are dead and barring Shard-resurrection are not involved any more. We don't actually know that Virtuosity is dead at this era, do we? We just know that by the time of Yumi, she is.

Oh yes, they are totally dead. But with Honor developing sentience and chaos of Cosmere War I, I wouldn't leave out any possibility.
Dunno about Virtuosity, haven't read that one, but I assume not much is known?

@Deianira
I don’t hate Adolin. In fact, some of my favorite moments in the series involve him. But every time he gets a chance to shine, it’s immediately undercut by anticlimactic nonsense. He was never supposed to be part of the main cast, yet he has all the pieces to be one of the most nuanced characters in the series.

He has so much untapped potential: the consciousness of guilt, feelings of inadequacy, refusal to grow up, and dedication to his craft. But every opportunity to properly explore these themes is made irrelevant or reduced to a gag.
The Duel? Undercut by the king throwing a tantrum and his “imprisonment”—“you had cologne in jail?” Hilarious.
Unable to keep up? He keeps up anyway, gets mortally wounded, walks it off, and complains about his ruined shirt.
Murder? Daddinar gives him an earful. That should at least ground him, right?
Disability? It lasts a couple of hours. For his next duel, maybe hand him a candelabra.

This isn’t really a critique of Adolin himself. It’s about poor writing choices that robbed him of depth and gravitas. If he’s a main character now, maybe it’s time to treat him like one instead of comic relief.

[Nitpicking]

1 hour ago, Asininity said:

Dunno about Virtuosity, haven't read that one, but I assume not much is known?

Yumi spoiler:

Spoiler

In Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, Hoid says that Virtuosity splintered herself. He doesn't (to my memory) say when she did that.

 

[MagicMaggot]

18 hours ago, Sedside said:

He had been given firemoss to deal with pain, will he get addicted to it during the timeskip? Of course not. Or maybe he will off-screen, but then we will be just told that he had an addiction but overcame it with his endless power of will because he is so amazing and honorable.

He was a womanizer in the past, now he is away from his wife for who knows how many years, he is surrounded by women who adore him, he doesn't like oaths and don't want to sit on the chair until told he could stand, will he be cheating on Shallan? Of course not, because his wandering eyes had magically disappeared when he found The One, and his dislike of oaths is for any oath but this particular one. And as well, because he is honorable and amazing.

He is bad with words and doesn't understand Shallan's humor, she thinks he is goofy, will they have problems during years of long-distance relationship? Of course not, Adolin will magically become good with words and gain sense of humor. Because he is amazing. And honorable.

Will his Unoathed turn out to be something bad, because oaths are the cornerstone of Stormlight Archive? No, it will turn out that oaths are bad, because Adolin doesn't like oaths.

...if any of that is the alternative, I'll take the Mary Sue any time. I like Adolin as he is now. I think a lot of readers do. And I think all of these suggestions would be hard to pull off without making me dislike the character. Creating drama and new character weaknesses during the plot, as you are suggesting here, is quite different from giving us characters that come with these weaknesses and learn to overcome them. I certainly wouldn't enjoy Shallan's and his relationship more, if there only was more drama and conflict in it, eating up the pages. I'm not saying that there isn't potential for good stories in following the fall as well as the rise of a character, but I can tell you that that's not what I read Sanderson for. 

Could there have been some more stumbling blocks in Adolin's road, without making it needlessly dramatic? I guess so. But I didnt miss any. And well, with the end of the world and all that going on, I kinda don't mind having a character around where I know that things are gonna be fine. Though I can't even really say that for Adolin, since he wasn't really far down on many "character most likely to die this book"-lists.

Edited January 5, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Yumi spoiler:

  Hide contents

In Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, Hoid says that Virtuosity splintered herself. He doesn't (to my memory) say when she did that.

 

YatNP Spoiler (minor):

Spoiler

1763 years prior to that story is when Virtuosity Splintered, give or take a year~ish. Not that it helps since we don't know how far in the future that book is from the birth of Retribution.

 

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

On 1/4/2025 at 1:21 AM, Sedside said:

He was a womanizer in the past, now he is away from his wife for who knows how many years, he is surrounded by women who adore him, he doesn't like oaths and don't want to sit on the chair until told he could stand, will he be cheating on Shallan? Of course not, because his wandering eyes had magically disappeared when he found The One, and his dislike of oaths is for any oath but this particular one. And as well, because he is honorable and amazing.

I don't know where you get the idea that Adolin dislikes oaths because he wants a reason to be dishonest. He dislikes oaths because he thinks they're too dogmatic, especially within the context of his personal experience.

Edited January 6, 2025 by Mage of Lirigon

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

YatNP Spoiler (minor):

  Hide contents

1763 years prior to that story is when Virtuosity Splintered, give or take a year~ish. Not that it helps since we don't know how far in the future that book is from the birth of Retribution.

 

Yumi:

Spoiler

That was the day the Father Machine was turned on and when the Shroud was created but not the day when Virtuosity Splintered herself. She likely did that even before that as the Shroud and Nightmares are a direct consequence of a Shard missing in the system. Yumi ch 5:

Spoiler

By Painter’s time, it had been seventeen centuries—and as far as they were concerned, the blackness of the shroud was normal.

Yumi ch 38:

Quote

“It’s in Torio City, isn’t it?” Yumi asked. “The festival. Did you turn it on during the festival?”
Another of the scholars spoke up, tentatively. “One thousand seven hundred and sixty-three years. Yes…festival day. The day we would create power for our people from the spirits themselves.”

 

Spoiler

ArgentSun

The way Painter transforms nightmares into other things is reminiscent of the way spren are affected by perception - only much more extreme. Is perception (and the way the world is set up) the only important factor here, or is Painter using Investiture too somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

What's going on here is not Painter using Investiture really. It's the fact that the nightmares have less control over them from another source. Spren have an oversight from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and this is kind of leaving them less at the whims of other people's perception. The nightmares do not have that. I'm not going to say they don't have it at all, but Painter is not using Investiture, but the nightmares are specifically more susceptible to what's going on. So for instance, a good way to answer this is if he went and did this for a spren he would not have the same level of power.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

 

Spoiler

[...]

Argent

Was that a side effect of the magic system that was used to Awaken the machine, or was there something else going on?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a side effect of what Virtuosity did and the bit of Virtuosity in all the people allowing the Machine to have enough of a plausible Connection to them to draw upon them.

[...]

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

[Raven Wilder]

My take on Adolin's oaths vs. promises thing is that an oath is you swearing to do something to an abstract principle, while a promise is you swearing to do something to another person - a person capable of understanding context and human limitations, and forgiving you if (despite your best efforts) you weren't able to keep it.

That fits with how we're shown that Adolin is all about building relationships with people, connecting to them on a personal level, and isn't so much invested in grand ideals.

[Isilel]

On 1/4/2025 at 7:21 AM, Sedside said:

I hoped he was going to be OC

 

This would have been wholly out of character, though. Yes, there were misleading hints like "born under the sign of the nine", which people seemed to forget was not just Odium's number, but also Talenel's. Or the Odium's champion having eyes that looked familiar to Dalinar in a vision - because they were supposed to be his own. But I never understood why killing Sadeas was treated as something that needed to have apocalyptic consequences. I am with Sebarial and Palona on this. And no, I don't doubt for a second that if Sadeas had survived into OB, he would have jumped at a chance to side with Odium and likely with worse results than what happened with Amaram. IMHO, the books already have a bit too much comic book morality and it was nice that this incident was treated as the grey, but necessary action that it was.

 

On 1/4/2025 at 7:21 AM, Sedside said:

And so reading his story I was 100% sure he will both succeed with his task and stay alive.

 

I was certain that Jasnah would fail, for character-building purposes, and that at least one of Adolin or Sigzil would succeed. I fully expected Adolin to die even if he won though, much as I like his character. I guess that he didn't for the sake of suitable culmination for Mayalaran's plot-line, leading to the UnOathed.

And honestly, I feel that punches were pulled far too much in WaT, which I otherwise enjoyed. And Sanderson really needs to ease up on the heroes going against ridiculous odds, with everyone we had even a little reason to care about miraculously surviving.

 

On 1/4/2025 at 7:21 AM, Sedside said:

He was a womanizer in the past, now he is away from his wife for who knows how many years, he is surrounded by women who adore him, he doesn't like oaths

 

Aren't you forgetting that while Adolin was a flirt, he didn't have sex with these women back in WoK? And the idea that only reverence towards oaths could prevent an otherwise loving spouse from cheating during a lengthy separation is quite a take.

Speaking of YA sensibilities in Sanderson's writing, Adolin's disastrous courting  plot-line in WoK was very much that. He was the most desirable bachelor in Alethkar, young ambitious noblewomen and their families weren't believably going to drop their pursuit of him for a bit of inattentiveness, occasional boorisheness, or wandering eyes. 

Regarding firemoss, we shall see, but according to Teft's PoVs, usually people don't get addicted to it from a single dose and many can even use it occasionally ditto. But with phantom pains and what not, maybe? Though, frankly, I'd very much prefer if the second arc dove into the new main characters, instead.

Wasn't Adolin intially treating Kaladin with rudeness and suspicion exactly the kind of imperfection that you appear to clamor for?

As to Helaran, yea, it looks like one of a number of possible revelations that should have had an emotional pay-off, but were just dropped in a somewhat contrived manner instead. What Gavilar was up to is another example of this. It really made no sense that Amaram kept what he knew about it back instead of throwing it in Dalinar and Jasnah's faces after WoR, but alas... Well, maybe Helaran's death will be a source of drama between Kaladin and Chana instead?

 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

On 12/30/2024 at 7:56 AM, Soccorro said:

It was also stated that by Alethi’s law killing a high prince = killing a king and punishment is either execution or exile. It was such a huge problem in book 2 but it disappeared in book 3 completely.

Sorry for the late reply on this one, but Adolin is very much in a state of exile from his family and kingdom at the end of WaT with no real idea on when or how he'll ever be able to get back to anyone. For all intents and purposes he's stuck in Azir. 

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

Aren't you forgetting that while Adolin was a flirt, he didn't have sex with these women back in WoK? And the idea that only reverence towards oaths could prevent an otherwise loving spouse from cheating during a lengthy separation is quite a take

Exactly, Adolin was never a "womanizer" in the common usage of that word. He dated many women casually, but there is never any indication that he took advantage of any of them sexually.

Also true about the take being quite one.

There might be a misunderstanding with some woman in Azir who adores Adolin in the back half of SA that might lead to some IC drama or something, but I don't think for a second just because Adolin was bad at relationships before it's indicative of his willingness to cheat on Shallan. 

Edited January 7, 2025 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Sedside she/her]

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

Speaking of YA sensibilities in Sanderson's writing, Adolin's disastrous courting  plot-line in WoK was very much that. He was the most desirable bachelor in Alethkar, young ambitious noblewomen and their families weren't believably going to drop their pursuit of him for a bit of inattentiveness, occasional boorisheness, or wandering eyes. 

Oh yeah, 100% agree with you here, I'm glad someone else thinks this is very strange and unbelievable.

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

Regarding firemoss, we shall see, but according to Teft's PoVs, usually people don't get addicted to it from a single dose and many can even use it occasionally ditto. But with phantom pains and what not, maybe? Though, frankly, I'd very much prefer if the second arc dove into the new main characters, instead.

The only thing I am referring to regarding firemoss, is that is was mentioned in the book, like, hey, we gave him firemoss, this thing is very addictive, hey hey, and then it looks like that it served nothing plot wise (maybe I've missed something). But the same happened to a lot of other stuff in WaT, so I'm sure it will be totally forgotten and will go nowhere. It was like Brandon thought "Adolin has lost his leg, my readers will think why he isn't dying from pain, all right, here we go, firemoss", which is dumb, imo. It looks to me like this firemoss stuff could be completely removed and nothing would have changed.

10 hours ago, Isilel said:

Wasn't Adolin intially treating Kaladin with rudeness and suspicion exactly the kind of imperfection that you appear to clamor for?

Yes, but this imperfection wasn't overcame by Adolin, it was overcame by Kaladin. He saved Adolin's life three times, and only then Adolin thought Kaladin is worthy of his friendship (I'm exaggerating on purpose). If it was Adolin's merit to overcome this imperfection, it would have been done differently. For example (just example, don't think that's what I would like to see in the book, please), after swinging Shardblade at Kaladin Adolin would think "oh my, that's not right, he saved my and my father's life, I overreacted, I have to apologize and compensate it somehow" and then takes a step toward Kaladin. But that's not what happens. Kaladin risks his own life two more times and only then Adolin takes a step. So it's like three huge steps from Kaladin and one little step from Adolin. That's how it reads to me. I don't view it as Adolin's merit.

Btw, I've thought today, how OC Adolin could have fit into the current story, and I think it would be awesome and much better if it happened like this: Adolin and Dalinar fight, Dalinar tries to take Honor, but Honor refuses him, then Adolin kills Dalinar, then some weird realmatic shenanigans, Adolin kills Taravangian and Ascends to Retribution. Now, that would be juicy. I think Adolin and Retribution are 100% match. It's exactly what he did with Sadeas and a lot of other things in his character I think are both of Honor and Odium. I really think it was initial plan for this story, but Brandon decided to take the easier path with all this Adolin worship in the fandom. Hope someone writes a fanfic about it, it will be my headcanon  And no, I won't discuss it with you if you don't like it, it's amazing and I will die on that hill

Anyways, I'm tired of Adolin discussion, I'm totally aware now that Brandon prefers vanilla mary sue story in regards of him to a good tension, conflict, drama etc, so nothing will happen, Adolin will keep crushing enemies with one little finger of his safeleft hand and everyone will keep praising him for that, it's ok. I'll just be skipping his chapters, if I ever read SA6 

10 hours ago, Isilel said:

As to Helaran, yea, it looks like one of a number of possible revelations that should have had an emotional pay-off, but were just dropped in a somewhat contrived manner instead. What Gavilar was up to is another example of this. It really made no sense that Amaram kept what he knew about it back instead of throwing it in Dalinar and Jasnah's faces after WoR, but alas... Well, maybe Helaran's death will be a source of drama between Kaladin and Chana instead?

Yes, a lot of potential was wasted with both Helaran and Sons of Honor. And Envisagers probably too. I have a vague hope for these Skybreaker dissenters, maybe Helaran is one of them, if he is alive, which to me seems absolutely possible. About Chana - maybe, but I believe he is not her son? And it looks like she was willing to kill her own daughter to make her a Herald... to be eternally tortured in Damnation instead of herself... I don't know... 

[Treamayne]

Sorry for the slight OT:

4 hours ago, Sedside said:

Brandon prefers vanilla mary sue story

You keep using this term, and I am confused. Do you really mean to imply that you think Adolin is a paragon of Femininity, or do you perhaps mean Gary Stu instead of Mary Sue (or, perhaps, some other definition)?

Excerpt:

Spoiler

Mary Sue

Quote

The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trek fanfic A Trekkie's Tale. Originally written as a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic of the time (as opposed to any particular traits), the name was quickly adopted by the Star Trek fanfiction community. Its original meaning mostly held that it was an Always Female Author Avatar, regardless of character role or perceived quality.

<snip>

As this essay reveals, suspiciously Mary Sue-like characters were noted in subscriber-submitted articles for 19th-century childrens' magazines, making this trope Older Than You Think.

<snip>

The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish-Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series. (See Common Mary Sue Traits for more detail on any of these cliches.)

In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

Gary Stu (a. k. a. Marty Stu)

Quote

Mary Sue, and the plot bias indicative of it, is hardly limited to those of a female persuasion. For probably just as long (if not even longer) as there has been Mary Sue, so too has there been Marty Stu. All the same rules apply, but a couple variations do tend to show up, expressing different ideas of what constitutes male and female "perfection". Also referred to as "Gary Stu" by those who prefer rhyming to alliteration.

<snip>

Marty Stu will be the personification of action, action, and more action. Or, if he is of an intellectual bent, he thinks his way through problems, inventing whole new branches of science and technology in the process, and in some cases, the character is often portrayed as the personification of both, completing missions as both the brains and the brawn, taking up the roles usually shared between the main character and a team or a partner. He's an unstoppable fighter, a rogue agent, a fearless freedom fighter, a master of disguise. But whether he is a Blood Knight or an Omnidisciplinary Scientist, Marty Stu will be devastatingly handsome (or if not, possessed of a strange, saturnine magnetism) and desired by all significant women, although as the works involved are usually aimed at a male audience, romance is not likely to be the main dish.

<snip>

Marty Stus are often subject to a Double Standard where they tend to be noticed and hated to a much lesser degree than Mary Sues are. See also The Ace, which often uses this trope as a minor character for comic relief, and Memetic Bada** when a character is turned into a Marty Stu by the fandom.

 

Again, sorry for the OT, but I just wondered what you mean when you use that description. Thank you very much. 

Edited January 7, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[boonboon]

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[Sedside she/her]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You keep using this term, and I am confused. Do you really mean to imply that you think Adolin is a paragon of Femininity, or do you perhaps mean Gary Stu instead of Mary Sue (or, perhaps, some other definition)?

I don't mean it to be gendered, I just like Mary Sue more than male variants, that's it

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

7 hours ago, Sedside said:

Anyways, I'm tired of Adolin discussion, I'm totally aware now that Brandon prefers vanilla mary sue story in regards of him to a good tension, conflict, drama etc, so nothing will happen, Adolin will keep crushing enemies with one little finger of his safeleft hand and everyone will keep praising him for that, it's ok. I'll just be skipping his chapters, if I ever read SA6 

You didn't actually answer Treamayne's question about what you mean when you use that term.

Regardless of the gender of the term... are you serious with this statement or just trolling at this point? Adolin is the least Mary/Gary character that ever Stu'd. 

He never crushes anyone with ease...anywhere. He constantly loses or barely wins most of the things he tries to do

Does he survive them? Yes. As do most of the main characters in Sanderson books. That doesn't leave his chapters devoid of tension/conflict/drama. 

He's good at two things, fighting/combat and fashion. The first, he has spent literally his entire life training to do with the best teachers money could buy and natural talent as well. The second is what he's most passionate about and spends much of his free time thinking about and doing whenever we see him. 

Outside of that, he is essentially useless... which is the opposite of what a Mary/Gary Stu are supposed to be in literature. 

[Returned he/him]

Heroic fiction is the natural habitat of the Mary Sue. They can be handled well or poorly, but if you can't stand this sort of character then Sanderson's genre is never going to be for you.

As far as the "every major character survives impossible odds, nearly every time", that too is a trope of heroic fiction. It used to not be so bad with Sanderson, both because it didn't happen as thoroughly or as often (e.g., Mistborn). But at this point I think that the roster of characters is too big and the expectation/delivery of massive battles too well established for the problem to fly under the radar any more. Stormlight alone was enough to push things into this range, but with the explicit merging of Cosmere series I think it's going to stay prominent.

[Sedside she/her]

1 hour ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Adolin is the least Mary/Gary character that ever Stu'd. 

Fine. You've changed my 5 years old pretty solid established opinion on his character. Thank you.

Edited January 7, 2025 by Sedside

[Knuti]

9 hours ago, Sedside said:

Yes, but this imperfection wasn't overcame by Adolin, it was overcame by Kaladin. He saved Adolin's life three times, and only then Adolin thought Kaladin is worthy of his friendship (I'm exaggerating on purpose). If it was Adolin's merit to overcome this imperfectin, it would have been done differently.

I am sorry, but in the books, that I have read, Adolin let himself be imprisoned next to Kaldin after the second time. Actions speek louder than words and that broke the ice between them. Shallan's part in the chasm scene did not hurt either. Less her direct effort, that I find clumsy, more that she could convince him, that she is a human being, so Light-Eyes can be human beings. I would even state, that these are main influences for Kaladin to rethink the Elhokar assassination attempt.

Btw I do not use the term Mary-Sue. IMO the term is derogative against book characters and that means derogative against the people who love them.

[agrabes]

I think we got a bit off topic here  - but I thought I'd chime in a bit about what I think was the original topic of this thread: Was this book a renunciation of the themes of Oathbringer and is Dalinar dodging responsibility in his move of letting go of the Honor shard?

Part 1: I don't know about Oathbringer in particular, but if we're talking about the series as a whole, then I believe the answer is yes.  The theme of the books so far had been that oaths are meaningful and that there is a lot of moral value in sticking to your oaths/promises even when it doesn't make sense.  For example - keeping a promise even when doing so is hurtful to you in some way, or the cost outweighs the benefit of keeping the promise.  This is more of an old school ethical/moral philosophy.  The earlier books in the series I think also gave a little more nuance to the idea that keeping oaths is good - they imply that the content and intent behind the oath must be good (even if the Shard of Honor doesn't care, it's clear that pretty much everyone else does).

When we get to WaT, the message seems to change.  Rather than the idea that holding to your word and keeping oaths being a good thing in and of itself, we are given the message that it is really not a good thing to even make those kinds of promises.  We see that through two of the main arcs - Kaladin with the way he continually tries to convince Szeth that he should not keep his promises, and Adolin with his Oath/Promise speech.  I thought both were a bit distasteful.  Kaladin was disrespecting Szeth's moral values and personal ethics - Szeth believed that following the law was important because it represented an objective standard even if it is flawed, and Kaladin was not willing to accept that and told Szeth he must abandon his own values because Kaladin knew better.  To Sanderson's (partial) credit, he had Nale give what I thought was a really good response to Kaladin, though he also undermined it by having Kaladin claim Nale was talking crazy.  On Adolin - in my view it's self-delusion and rationalization.  Adolin makes a big speech about promises vs oaths and tries to create a distinction when there really is not one.  His main argument seems to be that people will understand if you break a promise, so it's ok to break them but that an oath is not OK to break.  I disagree - a promise or an oath are the same thing - making a commitment to do something.  If you make an important promise or oath and then fail to live up to it, it's not OK.  Calling it one or the other has no meaning.  In both cases, you need to give yourself some grace (and forgiveness to others if you are the injured party) if you try your best but still fail or be able to have open and honest discussions about changes if circumstances change.  It comes off as a way to rationalize that it's OK to break promises.

I feel like this adds up to a changing moral/ethical theme for the book.  I liked the old message, but I don't love the new one.  

Part 2: Is Dalinar refusing to take responsibility for his own failures and/or is the book saying its OK for him to avoid responsibility?  No, not in my opinion.  He is continually looking for ways to create a permanent solution to the problem of Odium on Roshar.  His plan at the start of WaT is to take up the shard of Honor in hopes of using its power to defeat Odium in "single combat."  He learns throughout the course of the book that this isn't practical because even if he wins he would destroy Roshar.  The culmination of the book is him realizing that his original goal just will not work and he needs to find a new way.  He sacrifices himself to send out a message to get help for Roshar from the only people who can help - other Shards.  I don't think it's a lack of responsibility to call for help when you recognize you aren't capable of the job.  And you can't say he did not pay the price - he willingly sacrificed his own life to give Roshar a chance at a better future and to try to avoid perpetuating war.  I think you can debate all day about a lot of things such as whether or not he was right that he couldn't have won a long war of attrition with Odium, but I think the author's intent is to convey to us as readers that Dalinar could not have won had he taken up Honor.  I personally thought the message of Dalinar's actions was to force the people who took the Shards to take responsibility for their own actions rather than force their problems on people like Dalinar and the Rosharans.  Ultimately, it was Hoid & Pals who shattered Adonalsium and sent Odium out into the world to wreak havoc.  If we're going to use analogies - it would be like saying Dalinar is the environmental manager at a factory who is responsible to clean up any spills so that his factory doesn't pollute the local water supply.  He works nonstop but he just can't keep ahead of the spills and he's worried that it's only getting worse.  He then realizes that the CEO of the company decided to buy faulty equipment and knows about the pollution issue and will not offer any resources to fix it.  So after trying everything through the proper channels and getting nowhere, he sacrifices his career by becoming a whistleblower to the authorities and forcing the company to act.

[Nitpicking]

On 1/7/2025 at 11:27 PM, agrabes said:

... On Adolin - in my view it's self-delusion and rationalization.  Adolin makes a big speech about promises vs oaths and tries to create a distinction when there really is not one.  His main argument seems to be that people will understand if you break a promise, so it's ok to break them but that an oath is not OK to break ...

I read it as the exact opposite. Adolin says that promises last even after oaths are broken. That's the whole point of the Forgotten deadeyes coming to help when no human expected or asked them to. Even with the Nahel Bond broken, the oaths renounced, they still feel bound by their promises.

[agrabes]

23 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I read it as the exact opposite. Adolin says that promises last even after oaths are broken. That's the whole point of the Forgotten deadeyes coming to help when no human expected or asked them to. Even with the Nahel Bond broken, the oaths renounced, they still feel bound by their promises.

I can understand where you are coming from - but I think you are looking at something different from what I am looking at.  If you narrowly define an Oath as only the magical binding element of the Nahel bond which allows a Radiant to use Honor's powers, then sure.  In my mind, I view an oath as much broader - primarily the moral/ethical content of what you are promising to do.

Adolin's argument is that people should not make commitments about what they will do or what values they will live their life by because it is too restricting and puts stress on the person to live up to their commitment.  He explicitly says he did not want to become a Radiant because he felt living up to the Radiant oaths was too restrictive.  He's essentially saying he believes in promises rather than oaths because it's less bad to break a promise and therefore it's not as restricting.  I don't agree with that - in my opinion it's equally bad to break either.  He (and I think you?) also implies that you can still fulfill a promise after breaking it, but not an oath.  I don't agree with that - I think you can return to either a promise or an oath after breaking it.  Kaladin even returns to his Radiant/Nahel Bond Oaths after breaking them.

I think the deadeyes come back to help Adolin in WaT because they are still honoring the spirit of their oaths.  The oaths the deadeye spren made were to provide power to the followers of Honor if they prove themselves worthy.  That is exactly what they are doing in the end of WaT, just in a different way than before.  So, I would argue that they still feel bound by their Oath and want to fulfill it in the ways they can.  We don't know if they made any promises separate from their Oath, all we know is that they have come back to do something similar to their original oath. 

[Nitpicking]

Adolin's actual words here disagree with your summary:

Quote

He felt it an important one, for him. An oath could be broken, but a promise? A promise stood as long as you were still trying. A promise understood that sometimes your best wasn’t enough. A promise cried with you when all went to Damnation. A promise came to help when you could barely stand. Because a promise knew that sometimes, being there was all you could offer.

Chapter 135.

Did you notice, by the way, how the Shardblades appeared around Adolin in a circle, deliberately (I assume) echoing how the Heralds stood when they renewed the Oathpact?

Edited January 10, 2025 by Nitpicking

[boonboon]

On 1/8/2025 at 11:27 AM, agrabes said:

Adolin makes a big speech about promises vs oaths and tries to create a distinction when there really is not one.  His main argument seems to be that people will understand if you break a promise, so it's ok to break them but that an oath is not OK to break.  I disagree - a promise or an oath are the same thing - making a commitment to do something. If you make an important promise or oath and then fail to live up to it, it's not OK.  Calling it one or the other has no meaning.  In both cases, you need to give yourself some grace (and forgiveness to others if you are the injured party) if you try your best but still fail or be able to have open and honest discussions about changes if circumstances change.  It comes off as a way to rationalize that it's OK to break promises.

Hard agree. The distinction makes even less sense if we take into consideration how Kaladin's Windrunner oaths would contradict each other if taken at face value, but there's obviously more than that. 

And even if we speculate that Brandon's final idea is "promise is the next level of oath, because it's less restrictive", one still has to prove himself worthy of trust in his promises by fulfilling/staying true to his oaths, perhaps? Because one of the downsides of promises is that you can give them left and right without any consequences (I wonder why Adolin is so eager about them). And I, personally, wouldn't trust Unoathed Adolin with anything.

There's one particular character though..

Spoiler

Shallan lingered a moment, then poked Kaladin in the side. “I refuse,” she told him, “to say goodbye.”

“I’m … um, leaving anyway, Shallan.”

“Leave, then,” she said. “But we started this. You and I. Radiants before anyone else.”

“Except Jasnah. And maybe Lift. And perhaps—”

“You and I,” she said, “were there at the start. We meet at the end, like Adolin said. When the world is safe, and Dalinar’s done what he needs to do, we can all laugh and joke again.”

“Shallan, you have to—”

“Promise.”

He sighed. “I can’t promise what the future will be.”

“Reality warps around you, Kaladin. It always has. Promise me. If there’s a promise, then we can make it happen.”

He met her eyes, then nodded. “Drinks. Jokes. Laughter. At the end. I promise.”

Frustrating that it's hard to properly analyze anything, because BS has proven in RoW/WaT that he's willing to butcher his books/ideas/characters sacrificing all the consistency.

 

 

[agrabes]

12 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Adolin's actual words here disagree with your summary:

Chapter 135.

Did you notice, by the way, how the Shardblades appeared around Adolin in a circle, deliberately (I assume) echoing how the Heralds stood when they renewed the Oathpact?

That is Adolin's opinion - which I disagree with.  If you look at the paragraph above the one you quoted, he himself says it's likely foolish semantics which Radiants would disagree with.  (In that sense, I'll give Sanderson credit for flagging this idea as something that is not an absolute truth, which addresses my argument in terms of the moral of the story.)  There is no reason an Oath couldn't do all the exact same things he says, and there's no reason a promise must do those things (in other words, a promise can be held just as strictly as an oath).  If you make an oath to me that you'll do something that is important to me and then you don't do it, I'm going to be upset with you.  If you call that commitment a promise instead, I'm going to feel the exact same way if you don't follow through.

I think it's cool that Adolin and the deadeyes get to do something cool like this, but all this oath/promise stuff was really lame for multiple reasons we already discussed.

8 hours ago, boonboon said:

There's one particular character though..

  Reveal hidden contents

Shallan lingered a moment, then poked Kaladin in the side. “I refuse,” she told him, “to say goodbye.”

“I’m … um, leaving anyway, Shallan.”

“Leave, then,” she said. “But we started this. You and I. Radiants before anyone else.”

“Except Jasnah. And maybe Lift. And perhaps—”

“You and I,” she said, “were there at the start. We meet at the end, like Adolin said. When the world is safe, and Dalinar’s done what he needs to do, we can all laugh and joke again.”

“Shallan, you have to—”

“Promise.”

He sighed. “I can’t promise what the future will be.”

“Reality warps around you, Kaladin. It always has. Promise me. If there’s a promise, then we can make it happen.”

He met her eyes, then nodded. “Drinks. Jokes. Laughter. At the end. I promise.”

Interesting - I forgot about that scene.  I do wonder if it will mean anything.  She might be the one to find him before others considering where she is at the end of WaT.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

15 hours ago, boonboon said:

And I, personally, wouldn't trust Unoathed Adolin with anything.

There's one particular character though..

  Reveal hidden contents

Shallan lingered a moment, then poked Kaladin in the side. “I refuse,” she told him, “to say goodbye.”

“I’m … um, leaving anyway, Shallan.”

“Leave, then,” she said. “But we started this. You and I. Radiants before anyone else.”

“Except Jasnah. And maybe Lift. And perhaps—”

“You and I,” she said, “were there at the start. We meet at the end, like Adolin said. When the world is safe, and Dalinar’s done what he needs to do, we can all laugh and joke again.”

“Shallan, you have to—”

“Promise.”

He sighed. “I can’t promise what the future will be.”

“Reality warps around you, Kaladin. It always has. Promise me. If there’s a promise, then we can make it happen.”

He met her eyes, then nodded. “Drinks. Jokes. Laughter. At the end. I promise.”

Frustrating that it's hard to properly analyze anything, because BS has proven in RoW/WaT that he's willing to butcher his books/ideas/characters sacrificing all the consistency

I'm not sure how we're all reading the same book. Adolin has proven himself THE most trustworthy and loyal character in the entire series thus far

And this book is NOT the end, so no one has even begun to break that promise yet. Why are people treating things that happen in WaT as if there aren't 5 more books with almost all the same characters present still to come?