Hoid's Motivation

[EdgedancerJacob he/him]

I haven't seen a  thread on this yet, but correct me if I'm wrong.

In Endowment's letter to Hoid, she said... 

Quote

Be content to play with your toys on their world of storms. Or do I have to broadcast what I have learned of your goals? I certainly do not think it a coincidence that you have made a special study of the worlds where legends abound of the dead being raised. You feign altruism. But you have another motive, do you not?

That, in addition to the revelation that Hoid introduced the humans on Ashyn to Odium, makes me question who Hoid is ultimately trying to bring back (if anyone). Any ideas?

[The Sovereign]

1 minute ago, EdgedancerJacob said:

I haven't seen a  thread on this yet, but correct me if I'm wrong.

In Endowment's letter to Hoid, she said... 

That, in addition to the revelation that Hoid introduced the humans on Ashyn to Odium, makes me question who Hoid is ultimately trying to bring back (if anyone). Any ideas?

The "obvious" choice is Adonalsium, though that could definitely be a red herring.

Edited December 23, 2024 by The Sovereign

[EdgedancerJacob he/him]

2 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

The "obvious" choice is Adonalsium, though that could definitely be a red herring.

I thought that, but talked myself out of it because of the "dead being raised" aspect. I don't know if that phrasing aligns with a reforging of Adonalsium. Definitely an option though!

[The Sovereign]

4 minutes ago, EdgedancerJacob said:

I thought that, but talked myself out of it because of the "dead being raised" aspect. I don't know if that phrasing aligns with a reforging of Adonalsium. Definitely an option though!

Well more and more it seems the Vessel of Adonalsium was a man who was killed and separated from the Power. Then the Power was splintered into 16 parts; The Shards.

[EdgedancerJacob he/him]

1 minute ago, The Sovereign said:

Well more and more it seems the Vessel of Adonalsium was a man who was killed and separated from the Power. Then the Power was splintered into 16 parts; The Shards.

Good point! A valid option

[+Child of Hodor]

Maybe the First Gem he was the bearer of. His Topaz ring. Frost refers to it as being "dead" in his letter to Hoid. 

Quote

I'll address this letter to my "old friend," as I have no idea what name you're using currently. Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?
Words of Radiance Frost Letter to Hoid. Letters - The Coppermind - 17th Shard

In Dragonsteel Prime the ring contained a Dawnshard until it transferred to Hoid. Perhaps that much investiture being in the ring for a long enough period of time caused the ring to gain sapience in some way and the transfer of the Dawnshard killed it?  I don't know. 

[MagicMaggot]

I personally wouldn't tie something like that into his world-saving ambitions, and rather leave it as a humanizing thing. The guy is still just a guy, and there must be a plethora of friends, lovers and family-members he lost over the millenia, with new corpses in his wake wherever he goes. If he got a whiff that there might be mechanisms that could bring people back, and he thought he (maybe as the exist-Dawnshard) might be able to actually pull it off, why wouldn't he explore that. Even if he intellectually knows how such stories usually end, he is more than capable of rationalizing himself into stupid ideas as well. He is lonely. 

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[alder24]

42 minutes ago, EdgedancerJacob said:

I haven't seen a  thread on this yet, but correct me if I'm wrong.

In Endowment's letter to Hoid, she said... 

That, in addition to the revelation that Hoid introduced the humans on Ashyn to Odium, makes me question who Hoid is ultimately trying to bring back (if anyone). Any ideas?

At first I thought it's related to Adonalsium, but after the ending I think he was searching for a way to survive being vaporized by Odium or other higher powers. He found it and used it.

[Morty]

Hoid's broader motivations were also referenced in a reading from 2018 ("The Traveler" being Hoid):

Quote

"Did you… find what you were seeking?" the elder man finally asked.  

The Traveler shrugged, picking at another seed and nibbling on it. 

"You will not find a way to restore what you have lost, old friend," the aged man said softly. "It is impossible." 

"You don't know that. The old rules no longer hold." The Traveler turned the pomegranate over in his fingers. "Besides, I've heard of a place… It doesn't matter. I don't care. This isn't about the dead… or it's not JUST about the dead, at least." He dropped the fruit to the ground, wiping his fingers on his riding coat.

"So it's a simple vendetta, then," the aged man said, sighing. "How many years have you lived, and you still can't learn the wisdom of just letting go?"

"A simple vendetta?" the Traveler said. He rose, stalking up to the older man, holding out a finger and touching the man's chest. "You saw what Ati nearly did." The Traveler leaned down, face even with that of his older companion. "I would not think it MY vendetta that should worry you, old friend."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9518

There may be other references, as well, that I don't remember at the moment.

Regardless, I've always read it as a specific person (lover? sibling? parent?) that was lost prior to the Shattering. Seems to suggest that his motivations to join (or lead?) the 17 in the first place were 1) anger with Adonalsium, and 2) the hope of gaining the power to bring this lost person back.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Morty
Clarification

[Jeffo]

I’m sure it’s been mentioned several times in WOB and in the books about him wanting to bring back a former lover?

 

[Nitpicking]

5 minutes ago, Jeffo said:

I’m sure it’s been mentioned several times in WOB and in the books about him wanting to bring back a former lover?

I have no memory of any such thing, but that proves nothing.

[Argenti he/him]

6 hours ago, Jeffo said:

I’m sure it’s been mentioned several times in WOB and in the books about him wanting to bring back a former lover?

 

There's no wobs on it, but I feel like it would make sense.

 

6 hours ago, Morty said:

Hoid's broader motivations were also referenced in a reading from 2018 ("The Traveler" being Hoid):

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9518

There may be other references, as well, that I don't remember at the moment.

Regardless, I've always read it as a specific person (lover? sibling? parent?) that was lost prior to the Shattering. Seems to suggest that his motivations to join (or lead?) the 17 in the first place were 1) anger with Adonalsium, and 2) the hope of gaining the power to bring this lost person back.

Very much agree with this. Hoid reads as someone who lost something very close to him a long time ago, and hasn't really recovered from it.

[Forts Board]

On 12/24/2024 at 4:52 AM, alder24 said:

At first I thought it's related to Adonalsium, but after the ending I think he was searching for a way to survive being vaporized by Odium or other higher powers. He found it and used it.

From Dragonsteel Prime, we know that he has had this specific regrowth capability from his dawnshard for ages and has used it before. So it doesn't exactly make sense that that would have been what he was looking for. 

[Acolyte of Radiance]

Dragon steel prime isn’t totally canon

[RedBlue]

Another theory: it’s not about bringing back one person who Hoid was particularly attached to, but about bringing back a whole bunch of people whose deaths he feels responsible for (maybe in conjunction with the Shattering?)

[Some Shade]

I don't think Hoid is trying to resurrect Ado, but I do think it's possible he inadvertently does something like that by gathering the investiture of all the shards into himself and becoming a sort of miniature Ado. There are a lot of ways that could go, too (maybe he finds a way to invest others with this combo and creates an army of minis, or spreads it everywhere and every person becomes a god onto themselves, maybe this was planned by him and Ado all along as a little walkabout for God and hes just helping get the pieces back together, etc).  

Idk if it's actually possible but it feels like it would have some interesting thematic possibilities around how everything is greater than the sum of its parts and/or how God shouldn't be a monolith

[Nitpicking]

Thematically, Hoid has to have a "become a better person" arc. He's a protagonist. Name me a protagonist who hadn't had an arc like that, throughout the Cosmere? I think @RedBlue is thinking in the right direction.