The Bands Weren't Drained (Probably)

[Trusk'our he/him]

I know this horse has been beaten to death, eaten by a Mistwraith and then beaten senseless again, but I just had an epiphany that I think would reasonably tie it all together. 

We know the Malwish Consortium wanted the Bands, seeing them as an artifact from their god, the Sovereign.

With them, they could probably expand their Unsealed Metalmind tech enormously. You can't do that if they're drained though. 

Plus, we know from Steris that things seemed off with them. That there was a practiced air to their interaction with the Bands' seeming uselessness. 

I think now that an Allomantic grenade was used in conjunction with the power of aluminum, temporarily preventing anyone from tapping the Bands, but leaving their power intact.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/470-the-dusty-wheel-show/#e14829

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

So, I think we will see the Bands again at some point and their impact on Southern Scadrian Metalmind tech.

Thoughts on this take?

[Quantus he/him]

41 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I know this horse has been beaten to death, eaten by a Mistwraith and then beaten senseless again, but I just had an epiphany that I think would reasonably tie it all together. 

We know the Malwish Consortium wanted the Bands, seeing them as an artifact from their god, the Sovereign.

With them, they could probably expand their Unsealed Metalmind tech enormously. You can't do that if they're drained though. 

Plus, we know from Steris that things seemed off with them. That there was a practiced air to their interaction with the Bands' seeming uselessness. 

I think now that an Allomantic grenade was used in conjunction with the power of aluminum, temporarily preventing anyone from tapping the Bands, but leaving their power intact.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/470-the-dusty-wheel-show/#e14829

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

So, I think we will see the Bands again at some point and their impact on Southern Scadrian Metalmind tech.

Thoughts on this take?

I figure they are indeed drained of their stored power reserves, but that they are still functional as All Metal's medallions. Which would mean that there's a possibility that they could be recharged, but also that studying the Bands might teach them to make medallions with more metals/powers than the current limit.  Or at least I think the Malwish believe it to be possible enough to consider them strategically valuable to them enough to want to control them before others can. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I know this horse has been beaten to death, eaten by a Mistwraith and then beaten senseless again, but I just had an epiphany that I think would reasonably tie it all together. 

We know the Malwish Consortium wanted the Bands, seeing them as an artifact from their god, the Sovereign.

With them, they could probably expand their Unsealed Metalmind tech enormously. You can't do that if they're drained though. 

Plus, we know from Steris that things seemed off with them. That there was a practiced air to their interaction with the Bands' seeming uselessness. 

I think now that an Allomantic grenade was used in conjunction with the power of aluminum, temporarily preventing anyone from tapping the Bands, but leaving their power intact.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/470-the-dusty-wheel-show/#e14829

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

So, I think we will see the Bands again at some point and their impact on Southern Scadrian Metalmind tech.

Thoughts on this take?

I like this take, there did seem to be a weirdness to the interaction there

[Isilel]

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

With them, they could probably expand their Unsealed Metalmind tech enormously.

 

When the kandra took the Bands at the end of BoM to guard and study, I expected them to kick-start the unsealed metalmind tech in the Basin with their findings. Imagine my disappointment when it turned out that they had apparently learned nothing in the 6 years before TLM, and the Bands got precipitously whisked away.

I guess that Kelsier must finally get off his posterior and share the principles of medallion creation with the Basiners, if he truly wants a strong Scadrial. 

Though, I am pretty convinced that he orchestrated the Bands-napping and will get them, instead of the Mawlish.

But yes, if allomantic aluminium  grenade AoE also stops Feruchemy from functioning without draining the reserves in metalminds, then this very likely was the method.

 

12 hours ago, Quantus said:

I figure they are indeed drained of their stored power reserves,

 

Without the power reserves, they are just a lump of metal. The PoVs who used them felt Nicrosil portions of them actively draining, which means that wiping the reserves would have destroyed the function completely.

They are not like the medallions - though those, too, are inexplicably drained and useless in TLM, even though the weight-storing part of them should have remained useable - and would have been a benefit for both Wayne and Marasi.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

When the kandra took the Bands at the end of BoM to guard and study, I expected them to kick-start the unsealed metalmind tech in the Basin with their findings. Imagine my disappointment when it turned out that they had apparently learned nothing in the 6 years before TLM, and the Bands got precipitously whisked away.

Part of Kandra culture, the old parts anyway, was that Kandra took their Contract extremely seriously. To experiment with the Bands is the same as using them, which is against the agreement they agreed to.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I guess that Kelsier must finally get off his posterior and share the principles of medallion creation with the Basiners, if he truly wants a strong Scadrial. 

I think the very discovery of the Bands and Medallions is enough, just having the possibility of such things being confirmed would be enough for the Basin to really start trying to figure it out, especially since they're in a Cold War with the Malwish.

Kelsier doesn't need to spoon feed them to get them to do it, they already have a bunch of Feruchemists in Elendel who can help with this.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Though, I am pretty convinced that he orchestrated the Bands-napping and will get them, instead of the Mawlish.

I don't believe so, because I don't think he can do anything with them.

They must not be able to work for him, otherwise he wouldn't still be searching for a way to regain his Allomancy.

I think the main reason of getting the Bands back to the Malwish was to encourage the development of Invested Technology, giving the North a taste of the power they may yet be able to figure out, and giving the Malwish what they need to advance their Medallions even more, perhaps allowing them to create Medallions that have more than 3 powers and more substantial powers like F-Steel or F-Gold, maybe even Allomancer Medallions. All the things that have been heavily implied that they don't have for whatever reason.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

They are not like the medallions - though those, too, are inexplicably drained and useless in TLM, even though the weight-storing part of them should have remained useable - and would have been a benefit for both Wayne and Marasi.

Where was this said? I'd really like to know because I have no idea where this is said in the book.

Also yeah, a bit of a shame not to have the pair to use some Medallions, Marasi already gets Harmonium grenades after all.

My personal assumption is that Brandon's didn't let them use Medallions so that he can show them off better in Era 3, though it is still a bit of a copout. 

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Without the power reserves, they are just a lump of metal. The PoVs who used them felt Nicrosil portions of them actively draining, which means that wiping the reserves would have destroyed the function completely.

They are not like the medallions - though those, too, are inexplicably drained and useless in TLM, even though the weight-storing part of them should have remained useable - and would have been a benefit for both Wayne and Marasi.

For several reasons dont think that's true. For one, the Malwish claimed they'd be able to tell if they were fake even drained, meaning they believe the Bands to be qualitatively different that a similar lump of metal.  For another, Medallions have more Identity that most metalminds per the Arc Arcanum, and that combined with the Connections we know would remain to what it used to be means it should still be useful realmically to worldhopppers (even if pure metallic arts probably dont offer the needed functions).  Plus the Malwsih could still very much believe they can reverse engineer better medallions from it even if they prove to be wrong about that.  

If nothing else, the physical construction of them with all the different layers welded directly without corrupting the individual alloy mixtures is a non-trivial accomplishment in it's own right. 

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I know this horse has been beaten to death, eaten by a Mistwraith and then beaten senseless again, but I just had an epiphany that I think would reasonably tie it all together. 

We know the Malwish Consortium wanted the Bands, seeing them as an artifact from their god, the Sovereign.

With them, they could probably expand their Unsealed Metalmind tech enormously. You can't do that if they're drained though. 

Plus, we know from Steris that things seemed off with them. That there was a practiced air to their interaction with the Bands' seeming uselessness. 

I think now that an Allomantic grenade was used in conjunction with the power of aluminum, temporarily preventing anyone from tapping the Bands, but leaving their power intact.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/470-the-dusty-wheel-show/#e14829

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

So, I think we will see the Bands again at some point and their impact on Southern Scadrian Metalmind tech.

Thoughts on this take?

It's possible, but I think that an aluminum primer cube would still allow you to feel the reserve, but prevent you from accessing it (just like when Vin tried to burn Sazed metalminds). They would have felt the power inside the Bands, instead they felt nothing.

[Quantus he/him]

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's possible, but I think that an aluminum primer cube would still allow you to feel the reserve, but prevent you from accessing it (just like when Vin tried to burn Sazed metalminds). They would have felt the power inside the Bands, instead they felt nothing.

Was the OP theory that the Malwish were using a grenade to dampen it as part of their play to get them back, or that some third party was tricking them?  If the Malwish were behind it they might have simply been lying. Did anyone else "confirm" they they were empty?

Edited December 20, 2024 by Quantus
Awful spelling...

[Duxredux he/him]

This feels like it should be easier to validate. Perhaps erroneously, I would assume that the Elendel Governor would warrant Metalborn guards. Seeker, Tineye, and Coinshot are all logical options for passive surveillance - though I don't remember any of this being conclusively stated. Alternately, perhaps some of the noble lords with their purer Allomantic lineages (Wax being the prime example), may have been Allomancers.

I think Seekers can hear when Aluminum is burned. Kar seemed to know immediately when Vin was forced to burn Aluminum to wipe her metal reserves, so I assume a Seeker would know if Aluminum were burned or if their powers were nullified. Even if they didn't recognize the pulse of Aluminum, they absolutely should report any unusual Allomantic pulses near the Governor. If the Tineye was close to the Governor or in the room, they probably would have been able to hear the buzzing of the grenade since those grenades require proximity. It also seems logical to call in a Coinshot to check with Steelsight if the Bands are drained. Those seem like obvious checks that both the Basin and the Malwish should have expected, and I'm not sure how this underhanded method would circumvent those checks unless Daal thought he could intimidate and talk his way into getting the Bands fast enough to bypass this. Seems sloppy and risky though.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Duxredux

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Was the OP theory that the  Malwish were using a grenade to dampen it as part of their play to get them back, or that some third party was tricvking them?  If the Malwish were behind it they might have simply been lying. Did anyone else "confirm" they they were empty?

Yes, most of them, Steris and TenSoon included. TLM ch 48:

Quote

“How…” she said. “How do I activate them?”
“It was natural for Wax,” Steris said, walking over. She hesitantly poked the Bands, and felt nothing.
They passed them around, letting everyone try. Finally TenSoon took them, his face scrunched up in thought. Then horror followed. “They’re drained,” he whispered. “Something has happened … How…?”

[Isilel]

@JustQuestin2004:

The agreement was that the Basiners wouldn't be able to use the Bands, it didn't apply to the kandra, an ostensible neutral party and agents of a local deity. And IIRC, it has been specifically mentioned that they were going to study them.

As to "spoon-feeding", well, Kelsier gave the first principles of medallion creation to the Mawlish, why not give them to the Basin, if he wants to strengthen Scadrial ASAP? Particularly, since I suspect that either hemalurgy or a Mistborn and a full Feruchemist are needed to create the initial tools to jump-start the process. The Bands surely could have been used for it too, but... Well.

The way Allik talked about the Excisors suggested that they hadn't been able to duplicate them and are still using whatever the Sovereign had provided them with.

And I agree that Sanderson is saving medallion use for Era 3, but it felt extremely contrived and jarring to me in TLM when not only Marasi and Wayne, but also the Ghostbloods weren't using them. You are telling me that Kelsier could procure purified Dor and Awakened safes, as well as recruit off-worlders with exotic powers, but was unable to provide his people with fairly common SoScad technology?! Ditto Ghostbloods not having allomantic grenades. Etc.

Concerning Kelsier's limitations - he must be able to use _something_ to store his memories in copper (as seen by Wax at the end of BoM) and to con his organisation into believing that he still has Allomancy. So, he might be able to use the Bands as well. 

Re: Bands being different from the medallions and using up Nicrosil Feruchemy reserves, I don't have a copy of BoM to hand, but there have been a lot of discussions about that on this forum.

 

@Duxredux:

But that's the thing, in Era 2 nobody uses Seekers and Tin Metalborn as security anymore (except for Innate Jr. for a hot minute). Because if they did, it would have really crimped the ability of Our Heroes to sneak into places.

And nobody not associated with the Set or crime has any other type of Metalborn as security either, when they really should have. It is all very reminiscent of superhero comics.

So, the vice-governor Adathwyn(?), a Zinc Ferring, was the only Metalborn on the scene when the Bands were tested and she most likely had been bought by the Mawlish.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Isilel

[Duxredux he/him]

41 minutes ago, Isilel said:

But that's the thing, in Era 2 nobody uses Seekers and Tin Metalborn as security anymore (except for Innate Jr. for a hot minute). Because if they did, it would have really crimped the ability of Our Heroes to sneak into places.

And nobody not associated with the Set or crime has any other type of Metalborn as security either, when they really should have. It is all very reminiscent of superhero comics.

So, the vice-governor Adathwyn(?), a Zinc Ferring, was the only Metalborn on the scene when the Bands were tested and she was likely bought by the Mawlish.

Wax and Wayne take potential Seekers into account in every infiltration it would be relevant. Wax gets pinged while wandering through Lady Kelesina's party for his use of Allomancy. Wax has to surrender weapons at various parties lest the house Lurcher/Coinshot be summoned to check his possessions. Sneaking into the Set fort in BoM required Wax and Wayne to avoid using Allomancy right up until Telsin shot a guard. We don't see Wax bother when infiltrating the Vanisher hideout or the Set tower in TLM because he wasn't sneaking, he was the Lawman/Sword on the hunt. Wax does think about the possibility of a Seeker in the mansion when he breaks into Innate's safe, but he figured he would have enough time to grab and run, particularly when the Governor was not on site. Basically, Metalborn security does crimp Wax's ability quite frequently. Wayne is good enough at disguises for it to not matter in his case. Besides, we don't really see Wax hunt anyone down except the Set and Bleeder and known criminal elements. It's hardly fair to say everyone else (who aren't antagonizing Dawnshot) are stupid when Wax was usually working with them legitimately.

I think my point still stands that it would have been foolhardy for Daal to assume that the basin was this shortsighted when we're talking about sneaking in a grenade into the Senate. Security this lax is pretty inexcusable, particularly as Daal would have had equal opportunity to blast the majority of the Elendel governing officers with a more conventional grenade on his way out with the Bands. Actually, this is really my main issue with the OP. Foreign power sneaks in a bona fide grenade into the Elendel Senate, gets away with it, and does nothing else to further military interests like bombing the government.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Duxredux

[Trusk'our he/him]

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

Was the OP theory that the  Malwish were using a grenade to dampen it as part of their play to get them back, or that some third party was tricvking them?  If the Malwish were behind it they might have simply been lying. Did anyone else "confirm" they they were empty?

I was thinking along the lines of the Malwish pulling the stunt, as their actions were commented as being odd.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's possible, but I think that an aluminum primer cube would still allow you to feel the reserve, but prevent you from accessing it (just like when Vin tried to burn Sazed metalminds). They would have felt the power inside the Bands, instead they felt nothing.

Perhaps since Unsealed Metalminds use a bond mechanism the aluminum field could suppress it, making it undetectable?

6 hours ago, Quantus said:

For another, Medallions have more Identity that most metalminds per the Arc Arcanum, and that combined with the Connections we know would remain to what it used to be means it should still be useful realmically to worldhopppers (even if pure metallic arts probably dont offer the needed functions).  Plus the Malwsih could still very much believe they can reverse engineer better medallions from it even if they prove to be wrong about that.  

If nothing else, the physical construction of them with all the different layers welded directly without corrupting the individual alloy mixtures is a non-trivial accomplishment in it's own right.   

I guess if they really were drained that Kelsier's crew got ahold of them they could fix it with comparatively few issue, assuming they can't make a new one (which may be the case. Depends on whether Spook's Mistborn powers or a Full Feruchemist was necessary).

Kelsier was instrumental in their construction, so he knows their past. Use that information plus some Unkeyed Dor with a Forger like Shai and you could simply rewrite them to not have been drained. 

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

They are not like the medallions - though those, too, are inexplicably drained and useless in TLM, even though the weight-storing part of them should have remained useable - and would have been a benefit for both Wayne and Marasi.

While the weight medallions would have been useful in a number of situations, I think it's likely they were either returned to the airship's crew or given to another group for experimentation- after all, the non-Trellium spikes Marasi recovered went somewhere (a college,  I think?) for study.

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I think my point still stands that it would have been foolhardy for Daal to assume that the basin was this shortsighted when we're talking about sneaking in a grenade into the Senate. Security this lax is pretty inexcusable, particularly as Daal would have had equal opportunity to blast the majority of the Elendel governing officers with a more conventional grenade on his way out with the Bands. Actually, this is really my main issue with the OP. Foreign power sneaks in a bona fide grenade into the Elendel Senate, gets away with it, and does nothing else to further military interests like bombing the government.

Could the Malwish have invented a more subtle device in which to create an Investiture nullification field? Perhaps lined with aluminum itself to escape detection from Metalsight, maybe integrated with some kind of jewelry or clothing, maybe hidden in Daal's mask?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

In the last chapter of tLM it is shown that the Malwish ambassador that took the metal minds was part of Kelsier's crew, and he remarked, "I am sad that the Bands of Mourning didn't work." (Paraphrased)

[alder24]

10 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

In the last chapter of tLM it is shown that the Malwish ambassador that took the metal minds was part of Kelsier's crew, and he remarked, "I am sad that the Bands of Mourning didn't work." (Paraphrased)

No, nothing suggested that Daal was a Ghostblood. In Epilogue 4 Kelsier said that Lerasium and Hemalurgy didn't work on him, but he didn't mentioned the Bands at all in the entire TLM. I can' remember a quote like this and I can't find it. 

TLM Epilogue 4:

Quote

That gave him hope for himself though. Lerasium wouldn’t have worked on him, and Hemalurgy had proven ineffective on what he’d become. It held his soul and body together, but no more.

 

16 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Perhaps since Unsealed Metalminds use a bond mechanism the aluminum field could suppress it, making it undetectable?

I don't think aluminum can fully suppress bonds, but maybe.

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't think aluminum can fully suppress bonds, but maybe.

These bond would be extremely weak by the standard of the cosmere as a whole and operate on Physical Contact without any function at distance, so the Bond involved might not be Spiritual enough to get around Aluminum's type of local interference.  Im thinking of the way it'll block Seeker senses but not [SA stuff]

Spoiler

Singer Rhythms

.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

These bond would be extremely weak by the standard of the cosmere as a whole and operate on Physical Contact without any function at distance, so the Bond involved might not be Spiritual enough to get around Aluminum's type of local interference.  Im thinking of the way it'll block Seeker senses but not [SA stuff]

  Hide contents

Singer Rhythms

.

I doubt a weak bond would give powers, it has to be relatively strong to get into the spirit web. SA:

Spoiler

like an Honorblade bond. Not as strong as a Radiant bond, but still strong. And from WoBa we know that medallions are comparable to Honorblades - the same mechanic, different magic systems.

 

[Quantus he/him]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

I doubt a weak bond would give powers, it has to be relatively strong to get into the spirit web. SA:

  Hide contents

like an Honorblade bond. Not as strong as a Radiant bond, but still strong. And from WoBa we know that medallions are comparable to Honorblades - the same mechanic, different magic systems.

 

Medallions operate on the same mechanic but almost certainly a weaker Bond than the Honorblades since the

Spoiler

Honorbaldes still bond like a shardblade, changing your eye color and allowing things like summoning and dismissal, etc with lasting effects after the object is put down

, while with Medallions effects and so presumably the Bond Ends immediately when contact is lost.    

Edited December 20, 2024 by Quantus
Awful spelling...

[Isilel]

So, having searched BoM a bit, the passage that suggests that the Bands function differently from the medallions is probably this from chapter 29:

 

Quote

"His resources were diminishing. Not merely the metals inside of him, but the reserves stored inside the Bands. Stores that changed his level of Investiture."

 

In conjunction with this from chapter 21:

 

Quote

"This inner ring is nicrosil. You tap it, and it grants you Investiture - turning you into a temporary Feruchemist."

 

And the fact that it is not mentioned that the characters feel nicrosil stores diminishing when using the medallions.

There is also this WoB:

 

 

Quote

 

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

 

that again suggests that nicrosil part of the medallions doesn't perceptibly diminish with use - as that of the Bands seems to.

 

Concerning aluminum grenade fake-out of the Bands being drained, this WoB provides a good argument for the possibility:

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/470/#e14829

 

This passage in particular:

 

Quote

Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents.

 

Which, IMHO, could very well include inability to sense storages. Particularly since only the Vice-Governer could have done so natively of those present and she was likely in on the scam.

 

On 12/19/2024 at 5:26 PM, Duxredux said:

Wax and Wayne take potential Seekers into account in every infiltration it would be relevant.

 

So, it seems that there are a couple more mentions of Seekers than I remembered. There was indeed a "blink and you miss it" one at Kelesina's in BoM. And possibility of one being present at the crash site was mentioned. But ultimately Wax used his Steelpushing to fling Wayne into the area and it wasn't detected, so they clearly didn't have one on guard despite knowing that Wax and Co. would be coming. There was also a Seeker constable in the Bilming police precinct, but he did absolutely nothing except  wear a patch identifying him as such. Entrone's mansion and secret underground facilities of the Set didn't have Seekers stationed in them.

At no point in the books are Tin Metalborn look-outs/security even considered. And, in fact, they would have prevented all of Our Heroes' sneaky break-ins from happening as they had been presented.

Looking back on the entities not associated with the Set (Kelesina was) or criminals (including Winstig Innate), I don't remember anyone having Metalborn security.

In AoL, the Tekiels didn't, despite the importance of their endeavour for the very survival of their business, the society wedding didn't, despite several high-profile robberies and abductions.

In SoS the banks didn't, which enabled the Marksman's exploits. And the Governer had no Metalborn security either. Of course, Paalm could have dismissed them, or sent them away, but you'd think that Wax would have brought it up, if that lack had been unusual.  The police had 2 Coinshot messengers and a Leecher as contractors(?). No Seekers, or Marasi wouldn't have needed to deduce what was happening with the Set's emotional allomancers whipping up the crowd.

In TLM there are no Metalborn other than the protagonists in the police team sent to Bilming. It would track if the Governer didn't have any among his security yet again. He certainly didn't volonteer any to help prepare for the disaster, did he? Alternatively, the Vice-Governer could have sent them away, as well as made sure that Daal was able to bring in his grenade as part of the scheme.

This is actually something that bugged me throughout the Era 2 a bit - I remember that someone wrote that in TLM the obstacles had been artificially tailored to the characters powers, but this has been the thorough-line of the whole tetralogy, IMHO. Our Protagonists are always the only Metalborn on the scene other than the criminals/the Set and all the challenges are obviously structured so that the heroes could overcome them with their power-sets, without needing to cooperate with anyone outside of their small, tight-knit group. So, everything that could present real difficulty or provide real competition from people working on the same side as them got omitted.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Isilel

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Isilel said:

So, having searched BoM a bit, the passage that suggests that the Bands function differently from the medallions is probably this from chapter 29:

Quote

"His resources were diminishing. Not merely the metals inside of him, but the reserves stored inside the Bands. Stores that changed his level of Investiture."

In conjunction with this from chapter 21:

Quote

"This inner ring is nicrosil. You tap it, and it grants you Investiture - turning you into a temporary Feruchemist."

And the fact that it is not mentioned that the characters feel nicrosil stores diminishing when using the medallions.

There is also this WoB:

Quote

 

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

that again suggests that nicrosil part of the medallions doesn't perceptibly diminish with use - as that of the Bands seems to.

I believe Malwish medallions only grant Feruchemical powers, the Bands also are a medallion like this that gives only Feruchemy, where the nicrosil portion acts like a Coppermind. What's happening with Allomancy granted by the Bands is that they are stored as normal attribute in an Nicrosilmind, just like weight or heat is stored. You're using Feruchemical nicrosil given by the Bands to tap the Nicrosilmind and get Allomancy, which is not stored like memories, but like other attributes and thus can run out. So the Bands would run out of Allomancy fully, but would still grant Feruchemical powers (they can't run out), however in TLM all metalminds were drained so they were just empty, giving you powers you can't used. It would take all Mistings to store their powers in the Bands (like Wax stores his weight) to refill the Bands with Allomancy. At least that's how I think it works. The Bands are therefore a medallion that grants all 16 Feruchemical powers, in which all Allomantic powers were stored using normal Feruchemical nicrosil granted by the Bands.

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

the nicrosil portion acts like a Coppermind. What's happening with Allomancy granted by the Bands is that they are stored as normal attribute in an Nicrosilmind, just like weight or heat is stored.

 

Ok, but if it was that straightforward, why wouldn't SoScads make such gadgets too? With 3 powers limit, like with Feruchemy. Surely, they must have tried, given that they need Steel Allomancy to prime aircraft engines.

Also, if the medallion part granting Nicrosil Feruchemy  was not drained like everything else for some reason (why?) and remained functional, shouldn't people trying to use the Bands have at least felt something? It also seems to me that even in such a case, it would be a considerable sacrifice to lose the massive storages, no doubt created through Era 1 style hemalurgic Compounding. Yes, Marasi and Wax between them nearly depleted some of them, but they wouldn't have had reasons or metals to use others.

IMHO, a con where the Bands weren't drained, but seemed so, would be more likely. And the WoB about how allomantic grenades charged with Aluminum Allomancy could affect Metalborn powers suggests a plausible method, IMHO. 

Checking BoM, I also noticed that Wax thought that there might have been a second "bracer" there somewhere and looked for it before departing the temple. Could this be a hint that there is/was one?

 

 

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Ok, but if it was that straightforward, why wouldn't SoScads make such gadgets too? With 3 powers limit, like with Feruchemy. Surely, they must have tried, given that they need Steel Allomancy to prime aircraft engines.

Don't know. There are not a lot of Metalborn in the South, they simply might not have enough of them to do that with all medallions, or something special is required to make them work like the Bands.

6 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Also, if the medallion part granting Nicrosil Feruchemy  was not drained like everything else for some reason (why?) and remained functional, shouldn't people trying to use the Bands have at least felt something?

No, because there was nothing stored in the metalminds. Nicrosil Feruchemy and all other Feruchemical powers are given like memories in Coppermind, that's why they won't be drained. But that alone is not an attribute, in TLM there were no attributes stored in metalminds, no reserves to feel, that's why they felt nothing. Just like in BoM epilogue when Wax realized the coin is a medallion, he could felt a new reserve to tap - a coppermind, not a nicrosilmind. I think the nicrosil portion of medallions gives you the powers of Feruchemy so you can tap metalminds. 

Quote

Could it be? he wondered, holding up the coin. Two different metals. One was silvery. Could that be nicrosil? The other was copper. A Feruchemical metal. Though the pattern printed on the face wasn’t the same, and the coin itself was smaller, this didn’t look all that different from one of the Southerner medallions.
As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap. Wax gasped.
They called them copperminds. A very special kind of Feruchemical storage. One that stored memories.
He tapped it.

 

14 minutes ago, Isilel said:

It also seems to me that even in such a case, it would be a considerable sacrifice to lose the massive storages, no doubt created through Era 1 style hemalurgic Compounding. Yes, Marasi and Wax between them nearly depleted some of them, but they wouldn't have had reasons or metals to use others.

True, but I was just talking about how the Bands might work, not how they appeared drained in TLM. 

16 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Checking BoM, I also noticed that Wax thought that there might have been a second "bracer" there somewhere and looked for it before departing the temple. Could this be a hint that there is/was one?

Unlikely because at this point he didn't know the Bands were made by Kelsier, he thought they were made by Rashek and he had multiple of them.