Taravangian: big old hypocrite

[Nitpicking]

Like they just said on Shardcast, saving Kharbranth makes him a big old hypocrite.

I find it interesting that Brandon made his love for his city and family less redeeming than it might have been, by having him memory-edit them all so they can't be aware of his terrible crimes.

[StanLemon]

Yeah, Taravangian is one of if not the biggest hypocrits in the Cosmere. He spent a whole lot of time dumping on Jasnah, and then tried to force Dalinar to do the thing he himself wasn't willing to do. Frankly, Taravangian's lies were centerfold as soon as he chose to continue the war after taking up Odium 

[MagicMaggot]

Should we then apply the "Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing" to him, or are we inverting that in some way?

[StanLemon]

No, I don't think that applies for him. It's not that he's changing his values, but that he is trying to uphold values on others that he refuses to uphold himself to. Had he started changing his tune after saving Karbaranth that would be one thing however he still wanted to force Dalinar to do something that he himself wouldn't do

[therunner he/him]

I think he might yet change.

He now holds Honor as well, which seems to be changing and might grow into something better (Oaths -> Promises? ). And he notes at the end that Dalinar was right and he was wrong.

His explicit goal for Contest was to force Dalinar to prove Taravangian right, and instead opposite happened, and I think that combined with having to make allowances for Honor will shift Taravangian further.

[MagicMaggot]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

No, I don't think that applies for him. It's not that he's changing his values, but that he is trying to uphold values on others that he refuses to uphold himself to. Had he started changing his tune after saving Karbaranth that would be one thing however he still wanted to force Dalinar to do something that he himself wouldn't do

Taravangian certainly hasn't decided to change at this point, true. But I wouldn't be so certain about him not being in the process of changing, with the hypocracy being a possible sign of that process.

First. I just find it generally hard to believe that a character that will likely stick with us for another 5000+ pages or so as the main antagonist isn't going to change. So looking for the seeds of that development in his hypocrisies doesn't sound like a bad place to start for me. Note that that change can still lead him to double down, and go further into the wrong direction (for example, he could still destroy his Kharbranth), but it doesn't have to, either. 

More specifically, his own WaT story was about proving the philosophy that justifies his plans of conquest right to his frenemies. It was important to him that Jasnah made the arguments that furthered his own plans, and it was important to him that Dalinar either sacrificed the beloved innocent or proved himself unable to lead effectively. If people like these had to accept his reasoning in practice, if not in word, it would have been proven to be valid. Which is important, because his own hypocrisy shows that in practice he himself doesn't fully believe it, and wants (and maybe needs) the validation to stay commited. Being wary of being dominated by his shard(s) like Rayse was supposedly, his reasoning must be sound. And anything that undermines it, like Dalinar's final gambit, is something that could be part of what makes him rexamine his thinking. 

We're not at the end ot that story, just at the halfway point. Maybe in the end this is just a personal weakness that will be exploited to beat him, and he'll just stay what he is now. But maybe not.

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[+robardin he/him]

His own family and the thousands of saved people now populating his SR Simulated Kharbranth might change on him here, too.

He’s changed their memories so they don’t remember reports of his death, believe that peace was made with Odium at the cost of never leaving the city, that the missing people in the city had died of some strange disease…

All so he can visit in avatar form, sit on the throne, and have his living daughter and grandchildren with him, on his lap, etc.

Even if they never start to pull on the threads of that story, won’t they notice that… He doesn’t age? At some point his granddaughter will grow up in the SR just as Gavinor had done, right?

[Treamayne]

On 12/15/2024 at 10:18 AM, Nitpicking said:

Like they just said on Shardcast, saving Kharbranth makes him a big old hypocrite.

On 12/15/2024 at 10:47 AM, MagicMaggot said:

Should we then apply the "Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing" to him, or are we inverting that in some way?

Hey, Dalinar never said the change was for the better. . .

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Even if they never start to pull on the threads of that story, won’t they notice that… He doesn’t age? At some point his granddaughter will grow up in the SR just as Gavinor had done, right?

Sure, sometime. But I thought Gavinor's "20 years in a day" was because Vargo deliberately stored him in  a super-fast-time vision to torment, gaslight, and train him. Unlikely he does the same to his own granddaughter. More likely he does the opposite and slows down the Kharbranth vision to ensure she stays as young as possible for as long as possible (which, itself, may pull those threads).

 

[+robardin he/him]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

…I thought Gavinor's "20 years in a day" was because Vargo deliberately stored him in  a super-fast-time vision to torment, gaslight, and train him. Unlikely he does the same to his own granddaughter. More likely he does the opposite and slows down the Kharbranth vision to ensure she stays as young as possible for as long as possible (which, itself, may pull those threads).

Yes, he definitely sped up time for Gavinor to bring him from like 4 years old to 18 years old in the matter of a day in the Physical Realm.

But putting Simulated Kharbranth in an envelope of Slo-Time can’t quite work the same way, because from their perspective, time is still flowing normally but Taravangian is not aging (further) somehow.

If Taravangian’s daughter was already being groomed to take the throne, with Taravangian over 70 years old and (supposedly) going “senile but kindly”, won’t she notice that 10-15 years on (in Local Kharbranth time), he’s still around, the same as ever?

20? 25 years? How long could he possibly expect to keep this going? Or does he just keep resetting everybody’s memories?

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, robardin said:

If Taravangian’s daughter was already being groomed to take the throne, with Taravangian over 70 years old and (supposedly) going “senile but kindly”, won’t she notice that 10-15 years on (in Local Kharbranth time), he’s still around, the same as ever?

20? 25 years? How long could he possibly expect to keep this going? Or does he just keep resetting everybody’s memories?

I don't disagree - I'm only saying that in the 80 years of Cosmere Standard mentioned by Thaidakar, which will be about 10 years for Roshar, I expect Taravangian will only allow 1 year (or less) to pass for Kharbranth.

[Leuthie]

Taravangian is Machiavelli

He's a hypocrite as a secondary characteristic to him being radically consequentialist. "Ends justify the means" was something he believed in life (he was killing people to get information via their death rattles) and seems to be the primary tenet of his "godhood."

He agreed with everything he was arguing against Jasnah about. His goal was to convince Fen, so using his own belief in consequentialism against Jasnah's belief in consequentialism just made sense, even if it was the definition of hypocritical. 

His destruction and mind wiping Kharbranth just to foil Cultivation is further proof of his mental state. I fully believe their was a chance he would have become the Odium that Cultivation wanted him to be. He turned as far from that path as he possibly could.

[alder24]

20 hours ago, robardin said:

His own family and the thousands of saved people now populating his SR Simulated Kharbranth might change on him here, too.

He’s changed their memories so they don’t remember reports of his death, believe that peace was made with Odium at the cost of never leaving the city, that the missing people in the city had died of some strange disease…

All so he can visit in avatar form, sit on the throne, and have his living daughter and grandchildren with him, on his lap, etc.

Even if they never start to pull on the threads of that story, won’t they notice that… He doesn’t age? At some point his granddaughter will grow up in the SR just as Gavinor had done, right?

They all are a sort of Cognitive Shadows now, they will all age as long as they perceive themselves as aging. And that's a problem. I'm pretty sure Taravangian will be forced to delete their memories periodically, or even worse, make them relive the same day over and over again, to prevent them from realizing that something is wrong. Yumi spoilers:

Spoiler

just like what the Father Machine did to Yumi. 

Spoiler

Cheyenne Sedai

Given what happens at the end of the book, is Yumi immortal now? If not, does she age?

Brandon Sanderson

Her perception is going to influence this. She's going to need a small bit of power to persist, but she is so highly invested that it would take a very long time for that to be noticeable. Particularly because she's not even using that power. There's no out let for it. She's a Cognitive Shadow, much like the Heralds or Vasher, that is more self sustaining because of how highly she is invested. Imagine someone like Vasher with thousands of Breaths. You're just never going to notice. But her perception of herself will cause her to age. Probably not to age to the point that she dies though. Basically the answer is yes. You've got an immortal being running a noodle shop in a backwater corner of the Cosmere.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

They all are a sort of Cognitive Shadows now, they will all age as long as they perceive themselves as aging. And that's a problem. I'm pretty sure Taravangian will be forced to delete their memories periodically, or even worse, make them relive the same day over and over again, to prevent them from realizing that something is wrong. Yumi spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

just like what the Father Machine did to Yumi. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Cheyenne Sedai

Given what happens at the end of the book, is Yumi immortal now? If not, does she age?

Brandon Sanderson

Her perception is going to influence this. She's going to need a small bit of power to persist, but she is so highly invested that it would take a very long time for that to be noticeable. Particularly because she's not even using that power. There's no out let for it. She's a Cognitive Shadow, much like the Heralds or Vasher, that is more self sustaining because of how highly she is invested. Imagine someone like Vasher with thousands of Breaths. You're just never going to notice. But her perception of herself will cause her to age. Probably not to age to the point that she dies though. Basically the answer is yes. You've got an immortal being running a noodle shop in a backwater corner of the Cosmere.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

I didn’t think so; In Yumi,

Spoiler

the people had actually been killed/died originally when the Father Machine had been activated.

With the people from Kharbranth, it was more like what happened with Gavinor, and of course with Dalinar, Navani, Shallan, Rlain, Adolin, Mraize, and Iyatil: they were taken physically (living) into the Spiritual Realm, and could exit still whole and living at some later point, though time dilation is quite possible:

Quote

Taravangian emerged into the Spiritual Realm in his avatar form, joining a vision he himself had created and kept going indefinitely. It was populated by tens of thousands of people. His daughter. His grandchildren. Adrotagia. Each of whom was real, and not a fake made of this realm. Kharbranth was dead, but in the moment that Cultivation had looked away, Taravangian had summoned his power and taken the people. The city had indeed been destroyed, but he’d saved the occupants. In utter secret.

It’s the city around the people that is “a fake made of [the Spiritual Realm]”, the way that Our Heroes kept finding little pockets to hide from Odium in the SR by creating visions of past homes — the one in the Physical Realm being destroyed by the waves.

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, robardin said:

I didn’t think so; In Yumi,

  Hide contents

the people had actually been killed/died originally when the Father Machine had been activated.

With the people from Kharbranth, it was more like what happened with Gavinor, and of course with Dalinar, Navani, Shallan, Rlain, Adolin, Mraize, and Iyatil: they were taken physically (living) into the Spiritual Realm, and could exit still whole and living at some later point, though time dilation is quite possible:

It’s the city around the people that is “a fake made of [the Spiritual Realm]”, the way that Our Heroes kept finding little pockets to hide from Odium in the SR by creating visions of past homes — the one in the Physical Realm being destroyed by the waves.

I haven't thought of this in that way. I thought that Taravangian invested their souls after they were killed by the wave and hid them in SR, but now looking back at those quotes it does seem that they didn't die (unlike Cultivation's forces who were said to die from the wave)

Cognitive Shadows are real and aren't a part of the SR simulation so it made sense they were all turned into CS.

So, will Taravangian allow them to live and die, or will he mess with their Spirit Web to stop them from aging or even make them into CS and just periodically remove their memories? This is the only way to keep them from discovering that something is wrong, unless he fakes his own death (again).

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I haven't thought of this in that way. I thought that Taravangian invested their souls after they were killed by the wave and hid them in SR, but now looking back at those quotes it does seem that they didn't die (unlike Cultivation's forces who were said to die from the wave)

Cognitive Shadows are real and aren't a part of the SR simulation so it made sense they were all turned into CS.

So, will Taravangian allow them to live and die, or will he mess with their Spirit Web to stop them from aging or even make them into CS and just periodically remove their memories? This is the only way to keep them from discovering that something is wrong, unless he fakes his own death (again).

Yeah, that was the point I was raising: how long can he keep this going on? Not from the POV of the people in the Physical Realm; he could dilate time so that this "city in a bottle" in the SR could have barely a day go by, as decades passed in the real world.

But any time he dips into the vision to spend time with them in avatar form, posing as human Taravangian, that's one day less he can spend with them as real, mortal people, in "simulated Kharbranth time"; one more grain of sand drops in the hourglass. And how many days can he have like that?

[boolamoo]

I don't think he's a quite as big a hypocrite as everyone is saying. He was willing to go through it all in RoW when he thought it was the end. If Cultivation hadn't turned, I think he'd have gone through with it. 

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, boolamoo said:

I don't think he's a quite as big a hypocrite as everyone is saying. He was willing to go through it all in RoW when he thought it was the end. If Cultivation hadn't turned, I think he'd have gone through with it. 

I could almost agree with that, except at the very end, Taravangian knows that Dalinar was right, even if he can't admit it.

[AlmightyGir]

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I could almost agree with that, except at the very end, Taravangian knows that Dalinar was right, even if he can't admit it.

He can and does admit it, and hates Dalinar for it. What he refuses to do is hate himself for it.

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

He can and does admit it, and hates Dalinar for it. What he refuses to do is hate himself for it.

I may be misremembering, but I thought the power of the shard was what accepted Dalinar was right, not Taravangian himself.  Either way, Taravangian knows that he wouldn't sacrifice his family for what was "right" despite chiding and belittling Dalinar and Jasnah for not being able to do so either. That makes him a massive hypocrite. 

[Treamayne]

32 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I may be misremembering, but I thought the power of the shard was what accepted Dalinar was right, not Taravangian himself.  Either way, Taravangian knows that he wouldn't sacrifice his family for what was "right" despite chiding and belittling Dalinar and Jasnah for not being able to do so either. That makes him a massive hypocrite. 

The wording is specifically ambiguous. WaT Ch 147:

Spoiler

The entire city would persist in here, isolated and protected from whatever he did in the cosmere. One perfect place of peace and love.

His secret. His dangerous, shameful secret. Because in the end, although no one could ever know it, there were things even Taravangian—in a moment of pain and passion—had refused to sacrifice.

He embraced his grandchildren, weeping, and the power simmered. Hating Dalinar Kholin.

For having been right.