Why so much hate on the debate?

[Forged Herald]

9 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I don’t see how that would have worked.

Allowing Odium to lay out his case and then refusing to respond to it would not have been convincing at all to Fen. Odium made some extremely valid points, and failing to mount any kind of counter argument would look like conceding.

Fen didn't want to negotiate with Odium at all, it was Jasnah who agreed to the debate. The mayor problem with Jasnah is that in arguing with Odium she undermined all the trust Fen had in her. Fen is the Queen of Theylenah and Jasnah has to trust her allies to make the right choice. Loyalty and trust go a longer way than logic and arguments.

Even if he lays out how Jasnah had plans to murder Fen, she just has to say: "I now trust in you to make the right choice"

[christianrapper]

To me the debate was pointless. Todium gained absolutely nothing from the debate.  He actually lost some things in the agreement. Taravangian admitted that he was just going to kill and replace her anyway if she didn’t agree to his demands at the end. I don’t get the purpose of it in the narrative except to have Jasnah do something. 

[RedBlue]

9 hours ago, heridfel said:

Actually, I could see it. Let him start arguing, then say something like this in her own voice.

”He said that he was going to have me make his case for him. When I refused, he decided to change the rules and start making his own argument. As soon as something doesn’t go his way, he changes his mind. He says that he can be bound by oaths and contracts. I know you are a great negotiator. You had better hope you write the best contract in the world without a single loophole because remember: he isn’t just one of the parties in the contract. He’s also the judge.”

This sounds great in a vacuum, but with Taravangian there to point out how dire Fen’s situation would be if she doesn’t cut a deal, it falls apart. And if Jasnah keeps repeating ‘you can’t trust Taravangian,’ it only highlights that she can’t actually counter his points.

 

2 hours ago, Forged Herald said:

Fen didn't want to negotiate with Odium at all, it was Jasnah who agreed to the debate. The mayor problem with Jasnah is that in arguing with Odium she undermined all the trust Fen had in her. Fen is the Queen of Theylenah and Jasnah has to trust her allies to make the right choice. Loyalty and trust go a longer way than logic and arguments.

Even if he lays out how Jasnah had plans to murder Fen, she just has to say: "I now trust in you to make the right choice"

Loyalty and trust isn’t something Jasnah can argue because it’s antithetical to who she is. Somebody like Navani might have been able to pull it off, but not Jasnah. She perceives herself as, and has a reputation for being, someone who works on cold hard logic. If she pivots now and begins making appeals to loyalty, Fen will see her as not being genuine.

 

2 hours ago, christianrapper said:

To me the debate was pointless. Todium gained absolutely nothing from the debate.  He actually lost some things in the agreement. Taravangian admitted that he was just going to kill and replace her anyway if she didn’t agree to his demands at the end. I don’t get the purpose of it in the narrative except to have Jasnah do something. 

I think what Taravangian gained was emotional leverage over Jasnah. By demonstrating that she ‘agrees’ with him, he’s showing her that their ways of thinking are very similar, and maybe planting the seed of the idea that joining him wouldn’t be so bad. This is something he can use to manipulate her at some later date.

Taravangian seems to value having an ‘in’ with Jasnah over having stronger control over Thaylenah. Given who Jasnah is, I don’t think that’s a bad call.

[Forged Herald]

42 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Loyalty and trust isn’t something Jasnah can argue because it’s antithetical to who she is. Somebody like Navani might have been able to pull it off, but not Jasnah. She perceives herself as, and has a reputation for being, someone who works on cold hard logic. If she pivots now and begins making appeals to loyalty, Fen will see her as not being genuine.

I disagree. She doesn't have to argue loyalty, she has to refuse to argue and just trust. I know it's antithetical to who she is, that's why she lost.

[christianrapper]

What was the point in Jasnah debating to begin with? Why not just take the win without debating? 

[Ewery1]

7 hours ago, christianrapper said:

What was the point in Jasnah debating to begin with? Why not just take the win without debating? 

He’s the god of Passion and Hatred, not the god of Logic! He wants to cause great passion and angst! These are not beings of pure logic!!!!

[MagicMaggot]

I think the logic behind Todium's motivation was alyso pretty clearly spelled out:

Quote

 

There were two on this planet who, even as a divinity, he respected almost as equals. Jasnah Kholin and Dalinar Kholin. If they opposed him, then … he questioned. For in his Ascension to godhood, he’d obtained a wisdom that eluded most mortals. A simple, reasonable precept: if someone you deeply respected disagreed with you, perhaps it was worth reconsidering.[...] Dalinar was wrong. And someone needed to prove it.

Yes, he could have gotten the kingdom without her. But this wasn't about winning the prize, this was about people he respected granting him the victory of being right.  

I don't see a problem with the debate from his perspective. 

Edited December 25, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[LazarusLong]

Jasnah is kind of a loser. She is supposedly the most-experienced, modern Radiant, but she accomplishes very little during the True Desolation. Jasnah never saves entire cities like Adolin, never rescues entire governments like Kaladin, never fights off entire offworld organizations like Shallan, and never comes close to saving the whole world like Dalinar. Before we started getting Jasnah chapters I was expecting to hear that she was managing some sort of off-world trading empire and bringing strength to Alethkar/Radiants that way, but no, she was kind of doing nothing. She doesn't seem to use her Elsecalling abilities at all actually.

She couldn't even do the right thing in Thaylen City which was: kill Fen herself and take control of the city so she could hold it in the final moments before the contest. She didn't even consider doing it. Like, really, she's just ineffectual. How can she reasonably view herself as some cutthroat genius ruler when she never does anything more cutthroat than killing a couple robbers attacking her on the street.

She put assassins on Aseudan, but didn't kill her before she got corrupted: Loss. She did all this research on the Voidbringers, but didn't take any steps to stop the coming of the Everstorm: Loss. She has too many losses to count and no wins.

Edited December 26, 2024 by LazarusLong

[Nitpicking]

@LazarusLong, like the Shardcasters say in WaT Reactions 2, that seems to be narrative necessity. Jasnah has to start from somewhere below "already the best and most respected scholar and Radiant in the world", so she can have a story arc in "her" book.

[Asininity]

I guess most people were put off by the general premise. There was absolutely no point in it, other than some contrived plot device.

The logical course of action for Jasnah would have been to simply refuse, which would have been a win by default. Instead, she inexplicably decided to give a near-omniscient entity a chance to convince Fen. Stupid. 

While Odium could have simply taken over the city without any of this pageantry, he instead chose to offer what he called "the best deal anyone will ever get from him". Also stupid but I can accept that making a point was more important to him.

Many people, myself included, find "debate-bro culture" quite distasteful. Hardly ever it amounts to anything, other than stroking participants' egos, and "confrontation" between Jasnah and Taravangian was perfect example of it.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

For Odium, he's got the entire Cosmere to conquer and for sure he can't do it alone. He needs Generals. Plural. No matter how bad the debate made her look, if a literal God thinks that Jasnah would be a good person to have in his employ that is probably the best proof of concept that she is nearly as awesome as she has been portrayed. And if he is taking time out of his very busy schedule to humble someone for a city he basically had in the bag (nobody on team Honor foresaw any of TO's countermeasures) just to open up the possibility of picking up a great puzzle piece later on it's probably a good bet that she's worth that effort. 

[Raven Wilder]

The debate happens because both Jasnah and Taravangian are driven by pride. While Taravangian could seize Thaylen City by force, they're willing to give up a fair amount just to hear an enemy admit "You were right." And while Jasnah could simply have ignored Odium's request for a debate (as Fen wanted to), it's in Jasnah's nature to view such a challenge as something you must rise to - even admits to themself during the debate that it's exhilarating to pit their skills against a god.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 12/12/2024 at 6:00 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the debate with Odium for Thaylen City. It was a refreshing break from the battles and added some really interesting insights to the in-world perspectives and deeper character motivations and beliefs. But I have seen a lot of complaints about that part falling flat for people, and the main arguments I keep seeing are below (along with my response to each point):

• Jasnah got torn apart by obvious holes in her preferred philosophy about trying to do the most good for the most people
  • Jasnah didn't 'lose a debate' with Odium. She was preparing for a logical analysis of reasons, pros and cons, etc. Odium came in and made her feel comfortable by hitting some points she expected, then went personal and dug up old things from her past to discredit her reliability as an ally. He went ad hominem and just attacked Jasnah's character to weaken Fen's trust in her. Then he showed Jasnah (and Fen as well) that she could not get Fen to stick with her and the Coalition without going against her own espoused philosophies. I revealed to Jasnah that she didn't actually hold her moral philosophy above all else - she put her family and her people above it first. That's not to say it is necessarily bad or wrong that she does that, but it revealed a blind spot that she had - one which she was previously unaware of.
• Jasnah should have been aware of the conflicts that Odium pointed out to her
  • We all have our own blind spots and things that we subconciously don't let ourselves recognize and admit. Someone stuck in an abusive relationship will deny that and will keep telling themselves it can get better. People who are really, really smart and business savvy can fall for a con or a pyramid scheme because they have a blind spot for a family member or a friend, people (myself included) can live their whole life accepting a religious and/or political view as fact and completely ignore any aspects of it that are false/wrong. As someone who has had an "awakening" in that regard and realized how incorrect I was in a million different ways, Jasnah's reaction to the debate debacle actually resonated with me a LOT. It was extremely well written from the perspective of someone who thinks they have found truth, thinks they have all the answers, only to have it all come crumbling down when you realize that you were lying to yourself. That your certainty was holding you back from seeing things clearly. I certainly don't fault Jasnah for missing the tactics that Odium would employ or for not recognizing the blind spots that she had.
• Fen should not have so easily given in and accepted a deal with Odium
  • She was not going to, but finding out that Jasnah had investigated her with the consideration that she might need to be assassinated is kind of a shocker for any friend. Sure, it could be explained and she should be able to recognize that, but I think it is enough for her to at least pause for a moment and consider just how much better a deal with Jasnah and the Coalition is vs. the deal that Odium could offer. Her city had already been through a couple of massive rebuilds. In her mind, should she refuse, they would be forced into yet another battle for the city, hoping that Taravangian was dishonest about his ability to take it. It would mean many of her people dying, and even if they won the city would be left almost alone as it rebuilt. As Odium pointed out - the other ports would be under Singer control and likely wouldn't be playing nice with them. A merchant city without sales... It would be clinging to an oath just to keep it, leaving the city (at best) in a dire situation. If they took the deal on the other hand, they'd be protected, wealthy, and alive. Not to mention Odium basically gave them a blank check for the negotiations.
  • Quick additional side note - unbeknownst to her, the deepest ones would pretty much kill them and the protective measures they'd taken for the council were useless and manipulated by Odium anyway - there was no winning. So to that point it's also a good thing she made the deal.
• Odium and Taravangian both are known enemies, traitors, and (if not outright liars) deceptive and manipulative to the point that they will undermine any agreement through loopholes anyway
  • This is a great point. But I don't see how that outweighs all of the above responses. All you can do is try your best to make him give explicit promises which he would have to keep, ensuring as much safety, prosperity, and freedom for the city as possible. Which he pretty much said he would give almost any assurances she needed. As a shard he had to keep his direct promises. Sure, he might incite others to try and cause problems for you, but much less so that he would if Thaylen City was opposed to him. Joining him gave them the best possible outcome for the most people. Jasnah herself couldn't deny without lying that she would do the exact same thing. The only reason she was arguing against it was because it was not what was best for her family and people.

And that's what threw Jasnah into a bit of a deconstructive spin - she realized that she didn't truly follow what she claimed. She was totally willing to bend her philosophy when it came to protecting her family first, even at the rist of sacrificing Fen and her city. So she couldn't really blame Fen for making the choice that she did. And neither do I.

I actually put the book down for the day after reading the debate. Not because I thought it was poorly written, but because Taravangian was already known to be a liar and a betrayer who will throw anybody under the bus if he thinks it will serve him, and then label that bus the "Greater Good Express." And I don't care who good a deal is, you don't deal with a dirty dealer. And nobody is as dirty as !@#$% Taravangian. 

Also, Odium went out of his way to dig up "secrets" with his god-powers and this was the part that annoyed me, per Jasnah and her character. Jasnah didn't point out or ask for any dirt on Taravangian..since he'd moved directly to character assassination. Even so, Jasnah will learn from this and be a better person in 6-10.

Also, I hope Fen enjoys her perpetual night, and someone tells here It's Always Sunny in Azir.

Edited January 2, 2025 by JohnnyKaizen

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I actually put the book down for the day after reading the debate. Not because I thought it was poorly written, but because Taravangian was already known to be a liar and a betrayer who will throw anybody under the bus if he thinks it will serve him, and then label that bus the "Greater Good Express." And I don't care who good a deal is, you don't deal with a dirty dealer. And nobody is as dirty as !@#$% Taravangian. 

Also, Odium went out of his way to dig up "secrets" with his god-powers and this was the part that annoyed me, per Jasnah and her character. Jasnah didn't point out or ask for any dirt on Taravangian..since he'd moved directly to character assassination. Even so, Jasnah will learn from this and be a better person in 6-10.

Also, I hope Fen enjoys her perpetual night, and someone tells here It's Always Sunny in Azir.

Always sunny in Azir put me into a fit lol that’s amazing

But yeah I get it, I wouldn’t want to deal with Taravangian either. But I still think it was the correct and only good option for Fen to go with at that point. They were in checkmate, and TOdium won. The only other option was to refuse to give in and be killed anyway

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

3 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

But yeah I get it, I wouldn’t want to deal with Taravangian either. But I still think it was the correct and only good option for Fen to go with at that point. They were in checkmate, and TOdium won. The only other option was to refuse to give in and be killed anyway

I had long wondered why Sanderson spent so much time with Dalinar (and others) early in the coalition thinking/saying something along the lines of "It's SOOOOO WEIRD that Thaylenah is ruled more by the council than the Queen" and then after the battle of Thaylen Field..we never heard from the council again.

And while I see what and why Brandon did that now, I'm annoyed by it. Mostly because I expected more from Jasnah..not Dalinar because bless his heart...but I would have assumed that Jasnah would have been in active and frequent communication with the Thaylen Council, and she wasn't. I think that Sanderson did this on purpose to be the cornerstone of why she lost the debate, but it rubs me the wrong way. Because if she had done what I expected of her, Todium would have had a much harder time with his little plan...but that would have complicated the narrative in an already 490,000 word novel and I am mildly suspicious if the debate was, in fact, a wordcount-saving device, but I digress.

As I wrote above, Jasnah will be a better person for it, and I'm willing to let it slide whatever Brandon's reason(s).  I would have done it differently, but I'm not a world-famous author who writes 4-287 novels a year.

[QuantumAce]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Always sunny in Azir put me into a fit lol that’s amazing

But yeah I get it, I wouldn’t want to deal with Taravangian either. But I still think it was the correct and only good option for Fen to go with at that point. They were in checkmate, and TOdium won. The only other option was to refuse to give in and be killed anyway

But did Fen know they were checkmated before she agreed to terms? I thought that wasn't revealed until after. 

[Asininity]

46 minutes ago, QuantumAce said:

But did Fen know they were checkmated before she agreed to terms? I thought that wasn't revealed until after. 

No, you recall it correctly.
If Jasnah deduced that before the debate, she would have an legit reason to participate. 
Taravangian main goal was to humilate and hurt Jasnah, he had Thaylena already but was willing to pay more to do so.
Jasnah woke up and decided it was a good idea to have a verbal match with almost omniscient being. Smart.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

21 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

But did Fen know they were checkmated before she agreed to terms? I thought that wasn't revealed until after. 

No she didn't know about the deepest ones that would have killed them, but it was clear that her options were:

1. Fight and maybe win, leaving her city damaged (again) and nation isolated and surrounded by enemies with no one to trade [fairly] with

2. Fight and likely lose, leaving her city damaged (again), herself likely killed, and Odium's forces in control establishing a new government that would likely result in continued bloodshed along the way

3. Surrender and take a deal with Odium which would guarantee the safety of her people and herself, and would likely allow her to negotiate some favorable terms that would give Thaylenah the opportunity to develop and grow into a superpower.

Odium is a slimy loophole loving lunatic, but at least his being a shard means he would be bound to keep the agreements. Sure, he'll find some ways to undermine some of them, but not enough to do severe damage to the people. Odium had enough motivations to keep the city and nation intact and functioning at full force so long as they agreed to serve under his rule. In my mind it was a no brainer. And then you add in the deepest ones and it's even more obvious that there was no alternative.

Even before the deepest ones were mentioned, Jasnah herself had to admit that she would have done the same thing

20 hours ago, Asininity said:

Taravangian main goal was to humilate and hurt Jasnah, he had Thaylena already but was willing to pay more to do so.

Odium wanted to take the city by negotiations instead of by forced bloodshed. It's much better to keep the current government in place than to have to kill off the ones who oppose you and then set up the new people from there. Sure, he could do it either way, but by going through this debate process he was able to break down Jasnah a little bit (and hopefully loosen her convictions enough to the point that eventually down the road she might work with him, which was clearly a goal of his here) and convince Fen to hand him control of the city without the annoying process of setting up new leadership and cutting down inssurections.

That's why he was willing to make the deal instead of just forcing the attacks with the deepest ones and ending it before it started.

[JDM]

On 12/14/2024 at 7:27 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

For me, I both loved and hated the debate and it has very little to do with the points raised in said debate. Jasnah is and has been one of my favorite characters in SA. She is a badass. And Odium beat her like a drum. He didn't have to do it that way, he could have taken TC without all the drama. I loved the scene because as much as I like Jasnah she did need some character development going forward; this loss will temper her for the troubles ahead. Plus it harkens back to their little debate on religion in WoK. I hate it because it was painful to watch her get murdered in her own field of expertise. If she lost a swordfight or a battle, sure sure. It's not like she trained for that her entire life. But she has been verbally smacking down everyone this entire series and to see her being brought low, well it hurts. Which means it's a well done scene.

 

I'm with you. It was an incredibly painful outcome, because I really like Jasnah and seeing her lose someone that it really felt like she had won over at a personal level was rough. I'm hoping we see her build from it in the second arc. 
 

One thing worth noting is that despite (because?) being humbled so badly, she made the right choice to get the Shattered Plains into the hands of the Listeners, who both deserved the legitimacy the treaty granted and are likely to play a huge role in finding a path where both peoples can find a path to peace. I don't think the book was super clear on exactly who had what input into the plan happening, but at bare minimum she signed off on it.

Edited January 4, 2025 by JDM
Nonsensical typos

[rabidhexley]

Just got to this discussion since the debate bothered me. My personal problem wasn't with Jasnah, who was defeated in the exact way that made sense for her character. My personal problem was with how the discussion framed Fen.

 

The debate framed Fen's point-of-view as a moral one, she trusted in her allies. Jasnah was already established as incredible pragmatic, Fen had already decided to side with Dalinar- the Blackthorn -and trusted that people could change. In the course of the entire conflict, Jasnah and Dalinar had indeed proved to be trustworthy allies. They opened with the pragmatic arguments, and Fen shot them down.

 

I do think that flipping Fen could have made sense. But given her character in made more sense to play on her fears for her people, building them up to a breaking point where she saw no other way out, backing her into a corner. But those arguments were downplayed in favor of the points about utilitarianism. I know the sequence was more about Jasnah, but the way Fen was swayed just made her seem dumb and inconsistent.

 

So it felt very incongruous for the debate to seemingly pivot on questions of Jasnah's moral character. From Fen's POV, Jasnah has questionable moral character....and? Fen has already decided to side with the Blackthorn, and they have done nothing to earn her distrust. Regardless of Jasnah's mixed words, the things she has actually done, pushing for equality, freeing slaves, using the Oathgates to assist their allies economically, putting herself in personal danger in defense of Theylenah, she was established as trustworthy.

Quote

"Jasnah," Fen said, "I know you'd take the deal. He's been correct all along."

 

Except Jasnah literally wouldn't, because she has already had the opportunity to do so multiple times. And Fen should be aware of this. Alethkar has literally the most skin in the game of the entire coalition, and the most to gain in siding with Odium. (this was the one point in the debate where I had a problem with Jasnah's character, she should have known this point, she and Alethkar have sacrificed a great deal in the name of opposing Odium.)

 

Even the question about Dalinar's contract with Odium doesn't hold water. I mean obviously he singled out Alethkar, it was literally in enemy hands and he was trying to free his people. If they were truly self-serving, Jasnah and Dalinar had literally every opportunity to sell their allies out to Odium. If they were self-serving why would they choose to continue opposing Odium at every turn, they could have just negotiated for their own safety and called it a day.

 

Arguably Alethkar above all others got the first seat at the table in terms of having a chance to sell out the other kingdoms for their own safety, while continuously sacrificing the safety of their own people in the name of continuing to oppose him. With their own ruling family constantly putting themselves on the front-lines in battles in defense of ally territory at the expense of defending their own.

 

The only reason Fen is getting an opportunity to negotiate to betray her allies at all is because Jasnah specifically rules one of the only kingdoms Odium absolutely knows won't turn against their allies.

 

While Taravangian is conniving, a traitor, and could easily be described as unapologetically evil, he killed thousands, betrayed them, and argues from the perspective of being in the right for doing so. And... Odium is the literal God of hate. And has established that he plans on bringing war to the entire universe. Regardless of whatever contract they hash out, Fen is putting herself and future of her people into the hands of the established antithesis to morality. It makes no sense for any question of Jasnah's moral character to win out against the simple facts on display.

 

So in the making of that argument, it feels pretty weird for Fen to then literally commit the ultimate betrayal to her allies who bled and fought by her side. If she fell to fear it would have made more sense to me, not to the idea that her allies aren't trustworthy.

Edited January 8, 2025 by rabidhexley

[Letryx13]

On 12/20/2024 at 3:37 AM, christianrapper said:

To me the debate was pointless. Todium gained absolutely nothing from the debate.  He actually lost some things in the agreement. Taravangian admitted that he was just going to kill and replace her anyway if she didn’t agree to his demands at the end. I don’t get the purpose of it in the narrative except to have Jasnah do something. 

He was trying to humble Jasnah, to teach her a lesson, as I think he phrased it in one of the interludes.  Taravangian respects Jasnah, as his belief in his own superiority probably motivated him to try and prove he was better than her. 

On 12/20/2024 at 6:21 AM, RedBlue said:

This sounds great in a vacuum, but with Taravangian there to point out how dire Fen’s situation would be if she doesn’t cut a deal, it falls apart. And if Jasnah keeps repeating ‘you can’t trust Taravangian,’ it only highlights that she can’t actually counter his points.

The problem with that is that there is a valid argument to be made that Taravangian is untrustworthy, even bound by oaths as a shard. So literally everything he was saying was suspect. Sure, Jasnah couldn't just keep repeating that without looking weak, but Fen didn't know about the deepest ones, and the 'invading force' had been exposed as a likely ruse.

On 12/20/2024 at 6:21 AM, RedBlue said:

I think what Taravangian gained was emotional leverage over Jasnah. By demonstrating that she ‘agrees’ with him, he’s showing her that their ways of thinking are very similar, and maybe planting the seed of the idea that joining him wouldn’t be so bad. This is something he can use to manipulate her at some later date.

Taravangian seems to value having an ‘in’ with Jasnah over having stronger control over Thaylenah. Given who Jasnah is, I don’t think that’s a bad call.

Unfortunately, this is true. I very much doubt that Taravangian cared about how he got Thaylena. What he really wanted to was get the better of Jasnah, and teach her a lesson. The upside of which is that this sets up a fantastic opportunity for her to turn the tables on him in the back half of the series either by proving Taravangian is a hypocrite, or by proving him wrong about her in some other way.

On 12/20/2024 at 7:06 AM, Forged Herald said:

I disagree. She doesn't have to argue loyalty, she has to refuse to argue and just trust. I know it's antithetical to who she is, that's why she lost.

Agreed. My reaction to the debate challenge was that Jasnah should have just walked in, told Fen to do what she's gotta do and walked out.

On 12/25/2024 at 4:02 AM, christianrapper said:

What was the point in Jasnah debating to begin with? Why not just take the win without debating? 

He wanted to humble her, to prove he was better than her. The only thing bigger than Taravangian's ambitions is his ego.

On 12/25/2024 at 11:17 AM, MagicMaggot said:

I think the logic behind Todium's motivation was alyso pretty clearly spelled out:

Yes, he could have gotten the kingdom without her. But this wasn't about winning the prize, this was about people he respected granting him the victory of being right.  

I don't see a problem with the debate from his perspective. 

Exactly. If he merged with the shard of Ambition instead of Honor, he'd have been Arrogance.

On 1/2/2025 at 2:08 AM, Raven Wilder said:

The debate happens because both Jasnah and Taravangian are driven by pride. While Taravangian could seize Thaylen City by force, they're willing to give up a fair amount just to hear an enemy admit "You were right." And while Jasnah could simply have ignored Odium's request for a debate (as Fen wanted to), it's in Jasnah's nature to view such a challenge as something you must rise to - even admits to themself during the debate that it's exhilarating to pit their skills against a god.

Sadly, that probably was part of her motivation.

On 1/2/2025 at 3:40 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

I actually put the book down for the day after reading the debate. Not because I thought it was poorly written, but because Taravangian was already known to be a liar and a betrayer who will throw anybody under the bus if he thinks it will serve him, and then label that bus the "Greater Good Express." And I don't care who good a deal is, you don't deal with a dirty dealer. And nobody is as dirty as !@#$% Taravangian. 

Also, Odium went out of his way to dig up "secrets" with his god-powers and this was the part that annoyed me, per Jasnah and her character. Jasnah didn't point out or ask for any dirt on Taravangian..since he'd moved directly to character assassination. Even so, Jasnah will learn from this and be a better person in 6-10.

Also, I hope Fen enjoys her perpetual night, and someone tells here It's Always Sunny in Azir.

I was much the same. Fen's betrayal irked me so much I had trouble sleeping the night after I listened to it. Jasnah, Dalinar, Adolin, and the radiants fought to defend her city, against Alethi yes, but against people under Odium's influence. And she tossed them aside as soon as a more convenient option came along. 

And I agree about not dealing with a dirty dealer. Especially when the deal is as 'good' as the one Taravangian was offering. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

On 1/2/2025 at 3:44 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Always sunny in Azir put me into a fit lol that’s amazing

But yeah I get it, I wouldn’t want to deal with Taravangian either. But I still think it was the correct and only good option for Fen to go with at that point. They were in checkmate, and TOdium won. The only other option was to refuse to give in and be killed anyway

She didn't know they were in checkmate with the deepest ones.  That's what makes it galling. If he had threatened to have them assassinated or something, that would be different. But she gave in, not because of threats to her kingdom, but because it was more beneficial to betray her allies.

I figured from the start that his plan to take Thaylena involved someone already inside the city. I didn't guess an assassination was the plot, but I guessed that he had agents in Thaylen city as soon as they were talking about how nearly impregnable it was.

On 1/2/2025 at 6:18 PM, Asininity said:

No, you recall it correctly.
If Jasnah deduced that before the debate, she would have an legit reason to participate. 
Taravangian main goal was to humilate and hurt Jasnah, he had Thaylena already but was willing to pay more to do so.
Jasnah woke up and decided it was a good idea to have a verbal match with almost omniscient being. Smart.

Exactly.  The smart thing to do would be to evacuate the council and Fen to Uritheru, assuming they could be persuaded to do so. 

On 1/3/2025 at 3:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

No she didn't know about the deepest ones that would have killed them, but it was clear that her options were:

1. Fight and maybe win, leaving her city damaged (again) and nation isolated and surrounded by enemies with no one to trade [fairly] with

2. Fight and likely lose, leaving her city damaged (again), herself likely killed, and Odium's forces in control establishing a new government that would likely result in continued bloodshed along the way

3. Surrender and take a deal with Odium which would guarantee the safety of her people and herself, and would likely allow her to negotiate some favorable terms that would give Thaylenah the opportunity to develop and grow into a superpower.

As far as they knew, however, the invading force about to attack Thaylen city was a distraction, not a military. Jasnah had already figured that out, which meant a straight up fight was one Thaylen city was likely to win. Taravangian had probably planned on the assassination from the start. Which meant that Fen had no reason to assume they were going to lose the city in a battle. As for trading, they still had the oath gates. Besides, it's still a bad reason to betray allies just to have more people to sell to, even if they are a country of merchants. And I still seriously doubt Taravangian won't try to find some way to wriggle out of the deal he made with Fen. He's too underhanded for me to believe anything else.

On 1/3/2025 at 3:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Odium is a slimy loophole loving lunatic, but at least his being a shard means he would be bound to keep the agreements. Sure, he'll find some ways to undermine some of them, but not enough to do severe damage to the people. Odium had enough motivations to keep the city and nation intact and functioning at full force so long as they agreed to serve under his rule. In my mind it was a no brainer. And then you add in the deepest ones and it's even more obvious that there was no alternative.

Fen didn't know about the deepest ones. And Taravangian wasn't doing it to get Thaylena. If that was all he wanted, all he had to do was have the deepest ones attack, and that would be that. He did it to prove his superiority to Jasnah.

On 1/3/2025 at 3:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Even before the deepest ones were mentioned, Jasnah herself had to admit that she would have done the same thing

People think that sort of thing all the time, but then find themselves unable to do it in the moment. Look at what happened with Renarin during the battle of Thalen field.

On 1/3/2025 at 3:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Odium wanted to take the city by negotiations instead of by forced bloodshed. It's much better to keep the current government in place than to have to kill off the ones who oppose you and then set up the new people from there. Sure, he could do it either way, but by going through this debate process he was able to break down Jasnah a little bit (and hopefully loosen her convictions enough to the point that eventually down the road she might work with him, which was clearly a goal of his here) and convince Fen to hand him control of the city without the annoying process of setting up new leadership and cutting down inssurections.

That's why he was willing to make the deal instead of just forcing the attacks with the deepest ones and ending it before it started.

I seriously doubt he actually cares about whether he takes territory by negotiation or marshal force. He says that he wants to make things peaceful, but that's nothing more than his justification. He wants power, and he'll do whatever it takes to get it. Negotiation skills, military size, it doesn't matter. It's all power to him. And it doesn't make sense for him to care about setting up a new government, since he already had people on the council that served him. New leadership would have been easy to establish.

On 1/3/2025 at 7:17 PM, JDM said:

I'm with you. It was an incredibly painful outcome, because I really like Jasnah and seeing her lose someone that it really felt like she had won over at a personal level was rough. I'm hoping we see her build from it in the second arc. 
 

One thing worth noting is that despite (because?) being humbled so badly, she made the right choice to get the Shattered Plains into the hands of the Listeners, who both deserved the legitimacy the treaty granted and are likely to play a huge role in finding a path where both peoples can find a path to peace. I don't think the book was super clear on exactly who had what input into the plan happening, but at bare minimum she signed off on it.

Unlike a lot of people, I really don't like the Jasnah of the first half of the series.  I was put off by her ever since the 'lesson' she gave to Shallan. I never liked how ruthless she was, such as when she suggested killing the heralds to set up the oath pact prison again. And the fact that she seems to have regularly hired assassins.  But I agree that the humility she's hopefully gained from this will help to make her a better person going forward. 

1 hour ago, rabidhexley said:

Just got to this discussion since the debate bothered me. My personal problem wasn't with Jasnah, who was defeated in the exact way that made sense for her character. My personal problem was with how the discussion framed Fen.

 

The debate framed Fen's point-of-view as a moral one, she trusted in her allies. Jasnah was already established as incredible pragmatic, Fen had already decided to side with Dalinar- the Blackthorn -and trusted that people could change. In the course of the entire conflict, Jasnah and Dalinar had indeed proved to be trustworthy allies. They opened with the pragmatic arguments, and Fen shot them down.

 

I do think that flipping Fen could have made sense. But given her character in made more sense to play on her fears for her people, building them up to a breaking point where she saw no other way out, backing her into a corner. But those arguments were downplayed in favor of the points about utilitarianism. I know the sequence was more about Jasnah, but the way Fen was swayed just made her seem dumb and inconsistent.

 

So it felt very incongruous for the debate to seemingly pivot on questions of Jasnah's moral character. From Fen's POV, Jasnah has questionable moral character....and? Fen has already decided to side with the Blackthorn, and they have done nothing to earn her distrust. Regardless of Jasnah's mixed words, the things she has actually done, pushing for equality, freeing slaves, using the Oathgates to assist their allies economically, putting herself in personal danger in defense of Theylenah, she was established as trustworthy.

 

Except Jasnah literally wouldn't, because she has already had the opportunity to do so multiple times. And Fen should be aware of this. Alethkar has literally the most skin in the game of the entire coalition, and the most to gain in siding with Odium. (this was the one point in the debate where I had a problem with Jasnah's character, she should have known this point, she and Alethkar have sacrificed a great deal in the name of opposing Odium.)

 

Even the question about Dalinar's contract with Odium doesn't hold water. I mean obviously he singled out Alethkar, it was literally in enemy hands and he was trying to free his people. If they were truly self-serving, Jasnah and Dalinar had literally every opportunity to sell their allies out to Odium. If they were self-serving why would they choose to continue opposing Odium at every turn, they could have just negotiated for their own safety and called it a day.

 

Arguably Alethkar above all others got the first seat at the table in terms of having a chance to sell out the other kingdoms for their own safety, while continuously sacrificing the safety of their own people in the name of continuing to oppose him. With their own ruling family constantly putting themselves on the front-lines in battles in defense of ally territory at the expense of defending their own.

 

The only reason Fen is getting an opportunity to negotiate to betray her allies at all is because Jasnah specifically rules one of the only kingdoms Odium absolutely knows won't turn against their allies.

 

While Taravangian is conniving, a traitor, and could easily be described as unapologetically evil, he killed thousands, betrayed them, and argues from the perspective of being in the right for doing so. And... Odium is the literal God of hate. And has established that he plans on bringing war to the entire universe. Regardless of whatever contract they hash out, Fen is putting herself and future of her people into the hands of the established antithesis to morality. It makes no sense for any question of Jasnah's moral character to win out against the simple facts on display.

 

So in the making of that argument, it feels pretty weird for Fen to then literally commit the ultimate betrayal to her allies who bled and fought by her side. If she fell to fear it would have made more sense to me, not to the idea that her allies aren't trustworthy.

Could not agree more. That's the main reason why the debate bothers me so much. The radiants had saved Thaylena before, but Fen turned her back on them the moment a better option came along. Fen had been built up nicely as a strong ally, since she had doubted Dalinar so much in Oathbringer but had then supported the coalition so strongly. For her to turn traitor like that is frustrating, no matter what Jasnah had done. I don't like Jasnah, and I don't like that she investigated her allies, but on the other hand, you don't work with people you don't know. And Jasnah probably would have been able to see the holes in Taravangian's arguments if he hadn't spent most of the time attacking Jasnah's character.

[rabidhexley]

Quote

Could not agree more. That's the main reason why the debate bothers me so much. The radiants had saved Thaylena before, but Fen turned her back on them the moment a better option came along. Fen had been built up nicely as a strong ally, since she had doubted Dalinar so much in Oathbringer but had then supported the coalition so strongly. For her to turn traitor like that is frustrating, no matter what Jasnah had done. I don't like Jasnah, and I don't like that she investigated her allies, but on the other hand, you don't work with people you don't know. And Jasnah probably would have been able to see the holes in Taravangian's arguments if he hadn't spent most of the time attacking Jasnah's character.

 

Pretty much. I actually think the deconstruction of Jasnah's moral character was a good move, but it should have served as the means to break her down before playing on Fen's fears. It shouldn't have swung the debate because it was a losing argument, Jasnah is obviously more trustworthy than Taravangian, contract or not. There are few people that can less trustworthy than Taravangian, and it seems plainly obvious that a being of his capability could find a means of making Fen regret whatever terms they came to.

 

What breaking down Jasnah's moral framework does do is draw into question her unassailable competence, as so much of her image is based on the impression of having a supernatural level of raw capability and eternal rightness. This opens Fen up to doubting that her allies are really on the right track, if they can really stand up against something like Odium, that their path is really the right one given their situation. Allowing Fen to then fall to arguments playing on her fears, as Jasnah can no longer portray the image of an immovable bulwark.

 

"What is the right move Jasnah, do you even know?" feels like a stronger chink in the armor than "Yes, Jasnah totally would betray her allies in this situation even though that's inconsistent with what she's done thus far."

 

I think the main problem structurally is that Sanderson really wanted to end the chapter on Jasnah's darkest hour, as that was the most important moment for her character. But in doing so really made Fen look like a chump and a traitor.

Edited January 8, 2025 by rabidhexley

[Through the Living Questio he/him]

On 12/19/2024 at 4:13 AM, coolsnow7 said:

Well no, she thought that her arguments were so ironclad that not even Odium could find a hole. Even God can’t prove that 2+2=5! 

I CAN! 

I MADE CHATGPT BELIEVE THAT 2+2=3 ONE TIME!

[Letryx13]

On 1/8/2025 at 1:21 PM, rabidhexley said:

 

Pretty much. I actually think the deconstruction of Jasnah's moral character was a good move, but it should have served as the means to break her down before playing on Fen's fears. It shouldn't have swung the debate because it was a losing argument, Jasnah is obviously more trustworthy than Taravangian, contract or not. There are few people that can less trustworthy than Taravangian, and it seems plainly obvious that a being of his capability could find a means of making Fen regret whatever terms they came to.

 

What breaking down Jasnah's moral framework does do is draw into question her unassailable competence, as so much of her image is based on the impression of having a supernatural level of raw capability and eternal rightness. This opens Fen up to doubting that her allies are really on the right track, if they can really stand up against something like Odium, that their path is really the right one given their situation. Allowing Fen to then fall to arguments playing on her fears, as Jasnah can no longer portray the image of an immovable bulwark.

 

"What is the right move Jasnah, do you even know?" feels like a stronger chink in the armor than "Yes, Jasnah totally would betray her allies in this situation even though that's inconsistent with what she's done thus far."

 

I think the main problem structurally is that Sanderson really wanted to end the chapter on Jasnah's darkest hour, as that was the most important moment for her character. But in doing so really made Fen look like a chump and a traitor.

I agree. That would have made far more sense, a much better way to approach it. I completely agree that Jasnah needed to hit her low point in this book. It was the best possible way for her story to progress. And frankly, even personally I feel like Jasnah could stand to learn some humility (much like Taravangian) but having her not know the right answer makes way more sense than to suggest she’d turn traitor. It’s totally inconsistent with her character. 

[MagicMaggot]

Another idea how the same effects might have been created with a similar debate setup:

Jasnah also has her own kingdom. Todium could have had a debate with her about Alethkar's treatment (or even its freedom) instead of Thaylenah's, in exchange for some minor treason, and pretty much hit all the same beats in there, and got the same kinds of admissions out of her. And it could still have convinced Fen to hand over Thaylenah, if Todium either made Fen a hidden witness somehow, or played a recreation of the debate for her. The offer could and should have been so good that Jasnah should have really struggled with accepting it, with all her rational arguments against it failing, and in the end she could either have rejected it out of pure sentiment, or even tried to accept it with Taravangian mockingly withdrawing the offer after his point was made. And with Fen being convinced by Jasnah arguing for her own interests to do the same, Jasnah could easily have had her crisis of faith. Without expecting Fen in the audience, the showmanship could have been cut out, and with a fellow philosopher, talking about treason in a wholly utilitarian fashion would have been totally in character for Jasnah. 

I haven't thought about it too much, yet, but I feel that might have worked?

Edited January 9, 2025 by MagicMaggot