Why so much hate on the debate?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the debate with Odium for Thaylen City. It was a refreshing break from the battles and added some really interesting insights to the in-world perspectives and deeper character motivations and beliefs. But I have seen a lot of complaints about that part falling flat for people, and the main arguments I keep seeing are below (along with my response to each point):

• Jasnah got torn apart by obvious holes in her preferred philosophy about trying to do the most good for the most people
  • Jasnah didn't 'lose a debate' with Odium. She was preparing for a logical analysis of reasons, pros and cons, etc. Odium came in and made her feel comfortable by hitting some points she expected, then went personal and dug up old things from her past to discredit her reliability as an ally. He went ad hominem and just attacked Jasnah's character to weaken Fen's trust in her. Then he showed Jasnah (and Fen as well) that she could not get Fen to stick with her and the Coalition without going against her own espoused philosophies. I revealed to Jasnah that she didn't actually hold her moral philosophy above all else - she put her family and her people above it first. That's not to say it is necessarily bad or wrong that she does that, but it revealed a blind spot that she had - one which she was previously unaware of.
• Jasnah should have been aware of the conflicts that Odium pointed out to her
  • We all have our own blind spots and things that we subconciously don't let ourselves recognize and admit. Someone stuck in an abusive relationship will deny that and will keep telling themselves it can get better. People who are really, really smart and business savvy can fall for a con or a pyramid scheme because they have a blind spot for a family member or a friend, people (myself included) can live their whole life accepting a religious and/or political view as fact and completely ignore any aspects of it that are false/wrong. As someone who has had an "awakening" in that regard and realized how incorrect I was in a million different ways, Jasnah's reaction to the debate debacle actually resonated with me a LOT. It was extremely well written from the perspective of someone who thinks they have found truth, thinks they have all the answers, only to have it all come crumbling down when you realize that you were lying to yourself. That your certainty was holding you back from seeing things clearly. I certainly don't fault Jasnah for missing the tactics that Odium would employ or for not recognizing the blind spots that she had.
• Fen should not have so easily given in and accepted a deal with Odium
  • She was not going to, but finding out that Jasnah had investigated her with the consideration that she might need to be assassinated is kind of a shocker for any friend. Sure, it could be explained and she should be able to recognize that, but I think it is enough for her to at least pause for a moment and consider just how much better a deal with Jasnah and the Coalition is vs. the deal that Odium could offer. Her city had already been through a couple of massive rebuilds. In her mind, should she refuse, they would be forced into yet another battle for the city, hoping that Taravangian was dishonest about his ability to take it. It would mean many of her people dying, and even if they won the city would be left almost alone as it rebuilt. As Odium pointed out - the other ports would be under Singer control and likely wouldn't be playing nice with them. A merchant city without sales... It would be clinging to an oath just to keep it, leaving the city (at best) in a dire situation. If they took the deal on the other hand, they'd be protected, wealthy, and alive. Not to mention Odium basically gave them a blank check for the negotiations.
  • Quick additional side note - unbeknownst to her, the deepest ones would pretty much kill them and the protective measures they'd taken for the council were useless and manipulated by Odium anyway - there was no winning. So to that point it's also a good thing she made the deal.
• Odium and Taravangian both are known enemies, traitors, and (if not outright liars) deceptive and manipulative to the point that they will undermine any agreement through loopholes anyway
  • This is a great point. But I don't see how that outweighs all of the above responses. All you can do is try your best to make him give explicit promises which he would have to keep, ensuring as much safety, prosperity, and freedom for the city as possible. Which he pretty much said he would give almost any assurances she needed. As a shard he had to keep his direct promises. Sure, he might incite others to try and cause problems for you, but much less so that he would if Thaylen City was opposed to him. Joining him gave them the best possible outcome for the most people. Jasnah herself couldn't deny without lying that she would do the exact same thing. The only reason she was arguing against it was because it was not what was best for her family and people.

And that's what threw Jasnah into a bit of a deconstructive spin - she realized that she didn't truly follow what she claimed. She was totally willing to bend her philosophy when it came to protecting her family first, even at the rist of sacrificing Fen and her city. So she couldn't really blame Fen for making the choice that she did. And neither do I.

[RedBlue]

100% everything in this post.

Jasnah vs Taravangian was one of my favourite sequences in the book. It was really cool to see a conflict play out that wasn’t a physical fight. It played to the strengths of both characters, and Taravangian’s approach was very clever.

The resolution — Fen taking Taravangian’s deal — was heartbreaking because it felt so wrong, but at the same time, so inevitable. Fen had no good options. Rejecting Odium might be the morally upstanding thing, but it requires Fen to recklessly abandon all practicality and common sense. She was understandably unwilling to take that leap of faith, and Jasnah can’t be the person to inspire that kind of faith.

Also, I think this loss was vital for Jasnah’s character. She is capable, intelligent and powerful. If nothing challenges her, she’ll just trundle along doing the same things she has always done. Now, she’s going to have to take a long, hard look at herself, then decide how to pick up the pieces.

[basement_boi he/him]

Yeah I feel like too often people just say “Jasnah is really smart, she shouldn’t do this.” But I think it was good to show that 1. She is fallible, she isn’t perfect in the argumentative sense even though some people think she is 2. Some of her philosophies are at best morally grey and 3. A Shard of Adonalsium with the expanded mind of a god is a scary thing in more than one way.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

I've always felt like Jasnah has internalized the way people talk about her. She's the one who's always right; always logical; she never makes mistakes, etc. But she is fallible and some of her actions are highly questionable, especially the alley murder thing. She puts way too much stock into "pure logic," almost to the point of murdering Renarin in cold blood. I think this scene works really well to set up an arc for her in the back half where she confronts the holes in her philosophy, and maybe realizes that it's okay to put youself/your family/your nation first.

[coolsnow7]

I agree with you. I thought it was one of the more brilliantly executed portions of the book, especially just the basic plot twist of their being no battle in the first place.

And the contradiction in Jasnah’s worldview was apparent for a long time. We all should have picked up on it earlier.

I (briefly) started a PhD in philosophy so I usually find explicitly philosophical content pretty cringe. But Brandon did this beautifully. 

On 12/12/2024 at 6:00 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Jasnah should have been aware of the conflicts that Odium pointed out to her

You are 100% correct to dismiss this argument. It’s laughable. The number of people who have claimed to be hardcore utilitarians only to wind up prioritizing their own friends and family is very, very long - and includes extremely brilliant people. Even people brilliant enough not to fall for pyramid schemes and the like. (To give a perhaps controversial example: I tend to think Sam Bankman-Fried really did believe his rhetoric about Effective Altruism, and found a way to rationalize gifting his parents millions of dollars in property.)

 

The point of the debate wasn’t to get Jasnah to encounter the contradiction for the first time - all of the brilliant people who have fallen for this trap have thought about the topic in the abstract. The point was for her to confront the contradiction and offer a rebuttal strong enough to convince Fen! That is why Jansah was forced to acknowledge the contradiction - to herself, or in abstract philosophical debate, she could rationalize. To a fellow monarch who bears the responsibility for a nation of people, the rationalizations are no longer sufficient. 

In fact, I’d go further and note that Brandon laid the groundwork for this! We constantly heard from Taravangian about how rare it was for him to encounter someone who could relate to the visceral experience of the weight of responsibility. That’s what Odium used against Jasnah: the fact that she was only ever having these debates with fellow philosophers, never with another ruler. 

Edited January 10, 2025 by coolsnow7

[Sedside she/her]

I absolutely agree with you. This is my second favorite sequence in this book, I enjoyed it so much, I think it was brilliant. I hoped that Sadeas' murder could be addressed in a similar way, but *sigh* it wasn't. Because this episode is actually a very good example of the possible ramifications of thinking someone deserves death for whatever reason. There always can be another side, a third party, who thinks otherwise, and it can backfire on you someday. That's why, in my opinion, moral is what it is. Not because of doing the right thing for the sake of the right thing, but mostly because of its possible long term consequences.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Sedside
wording

[Aon Tia she/her]

I agree, I loved this sequence. To see Theylenah, one of the first and strongest allies, notice the fact that Dalinar will go to spritual realm on Cultivation's suggestion, was discussed in front of Fen, no one from Azir was there. 

Fen was that strong an ally. But then to see T win theylenah to his side without needing to raise a single weapon, merely on the basis of his arguments, it was brilliantly done. 

It strengthens that T is extremely smart, not only did he outwit Jasnah, in fact his used her own arguments to show her hypocrisy to Fen and broke them apart.

I think it was an important moment for Jasnah, this is very similar to how she needed to be confronted with her flaws, her utter failure and her hypocrisy. She is not a perfect character and she can not always win. It was necessary and it will provide for a foundation for the character struggle and eventual growth that we will see in her going forward in 2nd arc. She is bound to be a major player in the back 5 books. 

I am surprised that anyone is complaining about this. I am glad that not everything that T one, was through sword. Frankly, that is not his style also.  

[Alcatur]

8 hours ago, basement_boi said:

3. A Shard of Adonalsium with the expanded mind of a god is a scary thing in more than one way.

That was also what I liked it. Jasnah was arguing against Taravodium, but he was playing a crooked game using his divine knowledge. Had she better knowledge of what was going around, her chances would be better. Bringing up Kharbranth fate would probably change things - but she doesn't know that, nor she does a number of things. She thought it was a debate, while it wasn't, it was campaign for PR. I felt that several times she missed her chances - precisely because she was arguing as a scholar, not politician.  

[Forged Herald]

There are a few key things. The main problem with Jasnah, IMO, is she actually tried arguing with Odium. There is no winning in such a discussion, no amount of arguments is going to make you more convincing than a being that is mostly all-knowing. 

Jasnah thought she was going to outsmart T-Odium, but that wasn't going to happen and that hybris is what brought her down. She should have said: "I'm not arguing with you, I trust Queen Fen to make the right choice".

I know Odium had a backup plan, and Thaylenah would probably have fallen anyway (and Queen Fen would be dead) but it would be the way for Jasnah to win (even if she looses Thaylenah).

Also, I loved that Odium didn't argue Philosophy: he just attacked Jasnah personally. Arguments and logic don't really matter when trying to convince someone (the same happened with Kaladin and Nale but Kaladin saw how he couldn't argue logic with Nale).

Lastly it is kind of ironic how surrendering to Odium allowed Thaylenah to get commerce but they literally lost sunlight. I don't know how good a deal it was, but it definitely wasn't worth it.

 

 

10 hours ago, RedBlue said:

100% everything in this post.

Jasnah vs Taravangian was one of my favourite sequences in the book. It was really cool to see a conflict play out that wasn’t a physical fight. It played to the strengths of both characters, and Taravangian’s approach was very clever.

The resolution — Fen taking Taravangian’s deal — was heartbreaking because it felt so wrong, but at the same time, so inevitable. Fen had no good options. Rejecting Odium might be the morally upstanding thing, but it requires Fen to recklessly abandon all practicality and common sense. She was understandably unwilling to take that leap of faith, and Jasnah can’t be the person to inspire that kind of faith.

Also, I think this loss was vital for Jasnah’s character. She is capable, intelligent and powerful. If nothing challenges her, she’ll just trundle along doing the same things she has always done. Now, she’s going to have to take a long, hard look at herself, then decide how to pick up the pieces.

She was willing to take that leap of faith. Jasnah, with all her arguing, undermined it.

If Jasnah had simply said: "I trust Queen Fen to do the right thing" she would have taken the leap.

Odium would probably still have won because of the Deepest ones, but trying to argue was what brought Jasnah down.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Forged Herald

[MagicMaggot]

Not that it was a big problem with the novel for me, but the debate didn't work for me personally, because it was supposed to be a debate between a super genius scholar and a god of enormous intellectual potential, and none gave arguments that impressed me in the slightest. I basically agree with everything said by the op, but that doesn't make it feel any better to me. Jasnah has been build up as the greatest mind of her generation, mostly because other people said so. She didn't really have to prove it to the readers, because it was just implied, and that worked well enough. But that also means that this was basically the first time we got to judge her supposed genius for ourselves. And she didn't impress. Yes, Odium avoided much of the argument, leaving her arguing against personal attacks she wasn't prepared for, which is a fine explanation for her loss, but even the arguments she had prepared were still just basic. 

 

I also think it would have helped, if there had been more work put into the Fen-Jasnah-relationship. As it stands, I find it really, really hard to emphasize with her being shocked at Jasnah's behaviour. Every reader knew that preparing contigency plans like assassinations with cool detachment was fully in character for Jasnah, and we weren't really expecting her to hold foreign interests above her own. If Fen didn't think that of her, and even felt some personal betrayal of a supposed friendship at the revelation, maybe we should have seen more of that friendship before. I know the books are packed as they are, but if the emotional element was supposed to be the deciding factor here, I don't feel it was properly prepared. 

 

The economical arguments seemed much more convincing to me. "Even if the coalition wins, your way of life as a nation is dead, since I control the rest of the seas" is quite a major point that Jasnah couldn't counter intellectually, and would have had to counter with emotional appeals, or appeals to honor. So I'm fine with the resulting treaty with Odium. And I understand how it was good and necessary for Jasnah's character development to have her fail here. I also think having her fail because her argument would have relied on emotional appeals that she hadn't really allowed herself to see and build upon is a good idea. So I am fine with everything these scenes were supposed to accomplish, I think.

But in execution... well, as I said, I wasn't impressed. 

 

[TheOtherDave]

48 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

The economical arguments seemed much more convincing to me. "Even if the coalition wins, your way of life as a nation is dead, since I control the rest of the seas" is quite a major point that Jasnah couldn't counter intellectually, and would have had to counter with emotional appeals, or appeals to honor.

I thought that was the weaker argument. AFAIK, there’s nothing preventing them from trading with lands under Odium’s control. The terms might not be great, but the length of the contract between Odium and Dalinar was, what, 1000 years? I don’t see how trade restrictions matter for the first 900 years.

[Stinbad]

On 12/12/2024 at 9:55 PM, coolsnow7 said:

 

You are 100% correct to dismiss this argument. It’s laughable. The number of people who have claimed to be hardcore utilitarians only to wind up prioritizing their own friends and family is very, very long - and includes extremely brilliant people.

Not to mention!! At the end of the book, we find out that even Taravangian, with the abilities, awareness, and influencing Intent of a shard makes this exact same mistake!!!

I really don’t understand what people aren’t getting about this part of the story.

[Elder]

5 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Not that it was a big problem with the novel for me, but the debate didn't work for me personally, because it was supposed to be a debate between a super genius scholar and a god of enormous intellectual potential, and none gave arguments that impressed me in the slightest. I basically agree with everything said by the op, but that doesn't make it feel any better to me. Jasnah has been build up as the greatest mind of her generation, mostly because other people said so. She didn't really have to prove it to the readers, because it was just implied, and that worked well enough. But that also means that this was basically the first time we got to judge her supposed genius for ourselves. And she didn't impress. Yes, Odium avoided much of the argument, leaving her arguing against personal attacks she wasn't prepared for, which is a fine explanation for her loss, but even the arguments she had prepared were still just basic. 

 

I also think it would have helped, if there had been more work put into the Fen-Jasnah-relationship. As it stands, I find it really, really hard to emphasize with her being shocked at Jasnah's behaviour. Every reader knew that preparing contigency plans like assassinations with cool detachment was fully in character for Jasnah, and we weren't really expecting her to hold foreign interests above her own. If Fen didn't think that of her, and even felt some personal betrayal of a supposed friendship at the revelation, maybe we should have seen more of that friendship before. I know the books are packed as they are, but if the emotional element was supposed to be the deciding factor here, I don't feel it was properly prepared. 

 

The economical arguments seemed much more convincing to me. "Even if the coalition wins, your way of life as a nation is dead, since I control the rest of the seas" is quite a major point that Jasnah couldn't counter intellectually, and would have had to counter with emotional appeals, or appeals to honor. So I'm fine with the resulting treaty with Odium. And I understand how it was good and necessary for Jasnah's character development to have her fail here. I also think having her fail because her argument would have relied on emotional appeals that she hadn't really allowed herself to see and build upon is a good idea. So I am fine with everything these scenes were supposed to accomplish, I think.

But in execution... well, as I said, I wasn't impressed. 

 

The economic concerns were compelling… though, airships would have made their way of life obsolete anyway.

[RedBlue]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

airships would have made their way of life obsolete anyway.

Ports and shipping lanes are still massively important IRL. They don’t become obsolete with the advent of air travel. Transporting things by ship is more economic than air when you’re dealing with large bulk quantity goods which aren’t time sensitive.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12/13/2024 at 6:31 AM, Sedside said:

I absolutely agree with you. This is my second favorite sequence in this book, I enjoyed it so much, I think it was brilliant. I hoped that Sadeas' murder could be addressed in a similar way, but *sigh* it wasn't. Because this episode is actually a very good example of the possible ramifications of thinking someone deserves death for whatever reason.

It was addressed. That very sequence addressed it. Fen put her own people first. She admitted it openly. Jasnah admitted it only in hindsight. By those standards what Adolin did was right. You protect your family. He just took the route through an eyeball into a brain.

8 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Not that it was a big problem with the novel for me, but the debate didn't work for me personally, because it was supposed to be a debate between a super genius scholar and a god of enormous intellectual potential, and none gave arguments that impressed me in the slightest.

Neither of them was working to impress anybody but Fen. They are both practical people. They'll use the simplest way that'll work. Their approach showed their intelligence.

 

[Sedside she/her]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It was addressed. That very sequence addressed it. Fen put her own people first. She admitted it openly. Jasnah admitted it only in hindsight. By those standards what Adolin did was right. You protect your family. He just took the route through an eyeball into a brain.

Sorry, but I read it differently.

[Subvisual Haze]

Odium's argument centered around him being trustworthy to keep his word but all the B-plots in this book (including the debate itself) occur because of a silly loophole in a contract that Odium exploits ignoring intent.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Odium's argument centered around him being trustworthy to keep his word but all the B-plots in this book (including the debate itself) occur because of a silly loophole in a contract that Odium exploits ignoring intent.

Which is still better than the alternative

[Aredor]

Haven't read everything here, but here are my main thoughts on the debate. My thoughts on it now are much different than what I'd said originally. 

I agree with OP with point 1. Jasnah's hubris was her main reason for her loss. She really thought she could best a Shard of Adonalsium. Very convincing point there. 

My main issue with these chapters is with Fen. Taravangian fell into a common debate flaw, in attacking the character of his opponent. He didn't try to convince Fen, he just let Jasnah do it. Essentially, he made no arguments on his own, he merely showed Fen that her supposed ally only cared about her own interests. 

Actually, now that I'm writing it out, Taravangian's plan was brilliant. Showing that he, as a Shard, could be trusted more than her supposed ally.

I've changed my mind. The debate works. 

[SheepAreFluffy]

I didn't outright hate the debate, but I would say that it didn't really work for me, and I've been trying to figure out why. I think that, ultimately, my problem is that it's trying to do too much in too little space. On the one hand, it's supposed to show Jasnah as a genius level intellect who valiantly argued with a god and only narrowly lost; on the other hand it's suppose to show a crushing humiliation that makes her question the very core of her philosophical outlook. In trying to do both things, it failed to properly demonstrate either of them to me.

Part of the problem is that we just haven't seen much of Jasnah's scholarship previously. We've been told that she's an amazing historian and philosopher, but we've not seen it. Compare Jasnah's arc in this book with Adolin's. With Adolin, we've seen multiple examples of his martial prowess over the past five books and been able to follow his own personal journey in coming to terms with the idea that shardbearers were no longer the be-all and end-all on the battlefield. So when he gets stomped on by a thunderclast, it's fine for him to just get resoundingly beaten by something that's bigger and scarier than he is. It doesn't hurt his character because we've seen his bravery, technique and strength countless times before.

But with Jasnah, I think that the idea here was for her to be knocked down so that she could come back even stronger, having rebuilt herself with a different, stronger philosophical core. And this is fine and good, except that it felt to me that she was knocked down without having ever been properly built up previously. So we're trying to both build her up and then knock her down in the same conversation. I don't have the book at hand this second to go and check details, but from memory I believe that we're told that she nearly won and it was a slip of just one wrong word at the end that changed Fen's mind. And I believe as well that Taravangian complimented her on being such a strong opponent. And if this is the case, why is she so down on herself afterwards? If I got into a debate with someone who is effectively a god and came within millimetres of winning, I wouldn't come away thinking that I needed to re-evaluate my life. I'd be proud of doing so well in an impossible scenario. But at the same time, I don't think that I agree that she actually did do well. She went about the entire argument the wrong way, failed to come up with rebuttals that I (definitely not a genius) could think of, and generally wasn't particularly impressive.

To summarise, my problem is with the dissonance and dichotomy that I was left with. It's difficult for me to pull everything together to form a coherent whole. Unless I'm supposed to believe that Jasnah has always been overhyped and has never been particularly smart to begin with? But I'm fairly sure that that is absolutely not the authorial intent here.

[basement_boi he/him]

1 hour ago, Aredor said:

Haven't read everything here, but here are my main thoughts on the debate. My thoughts on it now are much different than what I'd said originally. 

I agree with OP with point 1. Jasnah's hubris was her main reason for her loss. She really thought she could best a Shard of Adonalsium. Very convincing point there. 

My main issue with these chapters is with Fen. Taravangian fell into a common debate flaw, in attacking the character of his opponent. He didn't try to convince Fen, he just let Jasnah do it. Essentially, he made no arguments on his own, he merely showed Fen that her supposed ally only cared about her own interests. 

Actually, now that I'm writing it out, Taravangian's plan was brilliant. Showing that he, as a Shard, could be trusted more than her supposed ally.

I've changed my mind. The debate works. 

Yeah, I don’t get why people are so uptight about the ad hominem issue. Yes, ad hominem attacks are a fallacy and don’t prove anything about anything. But they work. That’s a real world problem that people have, is that often times the better argument/person actually loses because of character attacks.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

For me, I both loved and hated the debate and it has very little to do with the points raised in said debate. Jasnah is and has been one of my favorite characters in SA. She is a badass. And Odium beat her like a drum. He didn't have to do it that way, he could have taken TC without all the drama. I loved the scene because as much as I like Jasnah she did need some character development going forward; this loss will temper her for the troubles ahead. Plus it harkens back to their little debate on religion in WoK. I hate it because it was painful to watch her get murdered in her own field of expertise. If she lost a swordfight or a battle, sure sure. It's not like she trained for that her entire life. But she has been verbally smacking down everyone this entire series and to see her being brought low, well it hurts. Which means it's a well done scene.

[Subvisual Haze]

I liked that it wasn't yet another side plot of armies punching each other.

It felt a little clunky in execution because it felt like an imperfect blend of a couple different ideas/functions.

1) A question on whether it is smart for a small power to seek peace with a larger power rather than get wrecked trying to oppose them.

2) An ethics 101 debate on utilitarianism.

3) Jasnah gets taken down a peg.

The final product felt a little clunky to me as a result.

[Soccorro]

9 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

occur because of a silly loophole in a contract that Odium exploits ignoring intent

And don't forget the fact that Odium's so-called genius plan was possible only because dumb Cultivation told Dalinar to go into spiritual realm and Gavinor accidently ended up there

[The Kings Raven]

I actually really liked the debate, but I actually agree with the criticisms you posted to rebut. It felt like... digs for example... the Battle for Wakanda in Avengers: Infinity War. It was really cool to watch, but if you think about it for five seconds you start asking questions like "why did two armies with advanced technology charge at each other using tactics made obsolete by the Ancient Greek phalanx?".

On 12/12/2024 at 11:00 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

• Jasnah got torn apart by obvious holes in her preferred philosophy about trying to do the most good for the most people
  • <...> Then he showed Jasnah (and Fen as well) that she could not get Fen to stick with her and the Coalition without going against her own espoused philosophies. I revealed to Jasnah that she didn't actually hold her moral philosophy above all else - she put her family and her people above it first. That's not to say it is necessarily bad or wrong that she does that, but it revealed a blind spot that she had - one which she was previously unaware of.

The problem with this is that we've seen Jasnah do bad things for the greater good, Odium brought up examples. But we've never seen Jasnah actually do anything truly bad because she prioritised her own family over the coalition. This means from the perspective of a story it feels unearned for Odium to win by pointing out this flaw.

Quote

• Jasnah should have been aware of the conflicts that Odium pointed out to her
  • We all have our own blind spots and things that we subconciously don't let ourselves recognize and admit. Someone stuck in an abusive relationship will deny that and will keep telling themselves it can get better.

We all do have blind spots, but Jasnah should have been aware of this specific blind spot without a doubt. Its so basic to the debate about utilitarianism that her not having encountered it before and being able to recite counter arguments stretches belief.

Quote

 

• Fen should not have so easily given in and accepted a deal with Odium
  • She was not going to, but finding out that Jasnah had investigated her with the consideration that she might need to be assassinated is kind of a shocker for any friend. Sure, it could be explained and she should be able to recognize that, but I think it is enough for her to at least pause for a moment and consider just how much better a deal with Jasnah and the Coalition is vs. the deal that Odium could offer.

 

I find it completely plausible that in the moment Fen would make the deal. I also think that its reasonable to think she's an idiot for it. Fen is mortal, Odium is a god, Honour is a god. And the contest of champions is Honour's grand plan. Fen should conclude that a god's master plan has a better chance of winning than her skills as a mortal negotiator.

Quote

 

• Quick additional side note - unbeknownst to her, the deepest ones would pretty much kill them and the protective measures they'd taken for the council were useless and manipulated by Odium anyway - there was no winning. So to that point it's also a good thing she made the deal.

 

This is very true. I think Brandon should have focused on this as the very crux of the debate, not the philosophy 101 arguments against utilitarianism.

Unlike bias towards her family, Jasnah has shown on screen a bias to working with monarchies and ignoring the little people, but its so subtly done, and so justifiable because the middle of a war is the wrong time to institute democratic reforms and the monarchs make the decisions; that to suddenly ambush her five books later that working with monarchies has become a reflexive habit that even when there is a democratic council she ignores it would be a brilliant way to get the same outcome of this city changing sides and Jasnah taking a blow to the ego.

Edited December 15, 2024 by The Kings Raven