Battar Going Forward?

[teknopathetic he/him]

I am still surprised that Battar returned to support the Oathpact. I was sure she would not return based on what we saw and in light of all Taravangian could promise her. What more could someone offer Battar than Taravangian?

In the glimpse of her during the reforming of the Oathpact, she seemed very curious and confused, but i didn't get the impression that she was crying with joy at the chance to be at peace, protect the spren, or defy Odium.

So which do we think it is?

1.  Battar Honestly and Earnestly Rejoined the Oathpact
   1. Battar values being at peace the most of all.
   2. Healing Ishar made her a bit less greedy perhaps.
   3. She will eventually heal and be less easy to bribe
   4. Friendship is magic 
       
2. Battar is Willing to Betray the Oathpact
   1. Battar was curious about the Oathpact and decided to join but doesn't care as much as others
   2. She is still very or at least a little willing to work with Taravangian 
   3. She may eventually try to alert Taravangian to what is going on
   4. She may be willing to break or plans on breaking eventually
   5. Possibly Battar feared being irrelevant or consumed by Odium/Retribution, but will be willing to deal again
   6. Since she was last to join, possibly she quickly spoke to Taravangian and made a plan. 
       
3. Mix: Battar is Honestly Joining, but is Bound by an Oath to Odium
   1. Not sure if she made a formal Oath with Odium
   2. Not sure if her deal with Odium means she has conflicted oaths
   3. Not sure exactly what she promised
   4. Not sure if a merging of shards changes the legality of her oath.

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[+robardin he/him]

My take: she's a mole now, that look on her face that Kaladin found "curious" as she took her place in the circle (the last to arrive) was because he had never seen someone's expression while resuming a holy oath and vow to represent Honor while thinking about betraying it for a "small planet" that she'd been promised.

[logicless.bt]

44 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I am still surprised that Battar returned to support the Oathpact. I was sure she would not return based on what we saw and in light of all Taravangian could promise her. What more could someone offer Battar than Taravangian?

In the glimpse of her during the reforming of the Oathpact, she seemed very curious and confused, but i didn't get the impression that she was crying with joy at the chance to be at peace, protect the spren, or defy Odium.

So which do we think it is?

1.  Battar Honestly and Earnestly Rejoined the Oathpact
   1. Battar values being at peace the most of all.
   2. Healing Ishar made her a bit less greedy perhaps.
   3. She will eventually heal and be less easy to bribe
       
2. Battar is Willing to Betray the Oathpact
   1. Battar was curious about the Oathpact and decided to join but doesnt care as much as others
   2. She is still very or at least a little willing to work with Taravangian 
   3. She may eventually try to alert Taravangian to what is going on
   4. She may be willing to break or plans on breaking eventually
   5. Possibly Battar feared being irrelevant or consumed by Odium/Retribution, but will be willing to deal again
   6. Since she was last to join, possibly she quickly spoke to Taravangian and made a plan. 

I think that with her madness healed, she earnestly believes in the Pact once more. Unfortunately, she made a binding deal with a Shard, so eventually he is going to be able to lean on her and force her to break.

The Heralds' minds are in the Spiritual Realm, right? The same place that Odium was able to reach Shallan, Renarin, and Rlain?

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 minutes ago, logicless.bt said:

The Heralds' minds are in the Spiritual Realm, right? The same place that Odium was able to reach Shallan, Renarin, and Rlain?

The Wind seems to think they will be hidden completely. Not sure exactly how that works, but I assume there will be ways to get in and out if people poke around enough. I am not even sure if Taravangian knows where the minds of the Heralds went, or if that is completely shrouded knowledge. 

[Moirne she/her]

Hm. Do we think Taravangian let her come along to fake Kharbranth, so she has knowledge of it which could compromise him? Or did he just explain her away as one of the ones that died?

[RedBlue]

I’m pulling for option 3.

It would be too easy for her bargain with Odium to just go away, and it would be too obvious for her to be a straightforward traitor. If she’s genuine, but stuck with a binding oath to Retribution, that’s juicy.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

I think in her mind, she's going to play both sides until she can decide what gets her more personal gain. This might change if she gets Kaladin Therapy(tm) though.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

That interlude existed for a reason. I can almost guarantee that she will be a problem at some point, no matter how conflicted she feels about it.

[coolsnow7]

In the RoW scene where Dalinar Connects with Nale, we learn that of the 9 remaining Oathpact members, one’s connection was severed entirely, whereas one was still fully strong. Obviously the strong one is Taln.

Quote

“No, only one line of it is completely broken. The rest are there, but weak, impotent.” Dalinar pointed to one line, bright and powerful. “Except one. Still vibrant.”
 

- Rhythm of War, p. 609

I feel pretty comfortable believing that Battar is the one who fully disconnected from the Oathpact by betraying it. At an absolute minimum, she knew her work on the Diagram was contrary to the purpose of the Oathpact; more likely she also knew that the Diagram was going to bring Taravangian to power, and made a conscious decision to fully break the Oathpact.

(It’s worth noting that the way the broken Oathpact gets described by Kelek in RoW is different than just restating obvious things:

Quote

“Your current battle? Against Odium?” Kelek laughed. “Boy, you’re doomed. You realize that, right? Tanavast is dead. Like, completely dead. The Oathpact is broken somehow. The only thing left is to try to get off the ship before it sinks.”
 

- Rhythm of War, p. 932

The implication - both here and in the earlier quote, is that it wasn’t Honor dying or Jezrien dying that broke the Oathpact - and the cause of the Oathpact breaking wasn’t something obvious to the Heralds.)

Where that leaves us is: it’s not at all clear to me that the “mind healing” that took place put Battar back to her original Heraldic self. Far more likely, IMO, is that she is now a fully deliberate double agent for Retribution and is going to cause major problems in the back half, along with the other people Odium reached out to: Moash and El.

[Subvisual Haze]

You can't save everyone, and Battar will be that one who is unwilling to be redeemed by Kaladin.  Both because of the greed primary motivation and that's she's just too morally far gone to be redeemed.  The others can claim various levels of magical incompetence so as to not be fully accountable for their actions.  Battar's hospitals are beyond forgiveness, and anyways I doubt she'll show any actual remorse for what she did.  She also can't hide behind the "I made moral compromises for the greater good" defense because she flipped to Team Odium the minute it was convenient.

Basically I think she'll be alternative expression of Kaladin's 4th oath - can't save them all.

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

At the time she wouldn't have been working for Odium, correct? I need to reread RoW, but I don't think Taravangian was even thinking he could be Odium at that point. So I don't think she would be considered a traitor at that point. I always read the broken line as from Jezrien's death back in Oathbringer. His death is what put the Oathpack on life support and required someone to replace him to reforge it. 

That said, I do think she will be an issue going forward. Ishar binding to the others and then taking in some of the power from Odium's well may have been what twisted the heralds intents, but they say a lot that their mental issues weren't all from that alone. The books also do a good job showing that mental recovery is a long process and does reoccur. So even if the supernatural flaw is fixed, I expect she will still have to deal with the real issues and consequences of her actions. 

[coolsnow7]

9 minutes ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

I need to reread RoW, but I don't think Taravangian was even thinking he could be Odium at that point.

So this is incredibly subtle, but my fringe view is that there were enough hints for Taravangian to know what he was doing. For example when Taravangian is explaining to Dalinar why he believes they can’t win, there’s this intriguing line:

 

Quote

“I … I…” Taravangian rubbed his brow. “I don’t have the intelligence right now to explain it to you. Odium will arrange things so that no matter what choice you make, he will win. Knowing that, I made the difficult decision to save at least one city.”

- Rhythm of War, p. 773

Edited December 13, 2024 by coolsnow7

[Moony009]

I didn't think of this immediately, but after seeing peoples' thoughts here, I think Battar coming back makes sense in the lens of self-preservation.  Tara/bution was seemingly going to call back all of the spren, including the pieces of Honor born by the Heralds, and unmake/remake them.  She could be salvageable like some of the Heralds seem to be, but I think her continuing as an agent of Tara/bution in the back half could make sense still, even if she came back to reforge the Oathpact.  Because even though that was an act against Tara/bution's best interest, it was arguably in Battar's best interest, as failing to reforge the Oathpact could have seemingly put her utterly in his power.

Binding Tara/bution and protecting the spren would make sense in that scenario, because she could still find a way to work with him in a more mercenary fashion as she had been, without letting herself become a slave/servant.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Moony009

[Darvys]

I expect she'll be the reason the Heralds are thrown back to Roshar ahead of schedule, and Team Taravangian can't all be centered on El, so a conflicted double agent who eventually turns full traitor would be my bet. I hope we don't get many Herald casualties but if we do, I think she'll be the main cause.

[Alcatur]

5 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

In the RoW scene where Dalinar Connects with Nale, we learn that of the 9 remaining Oathpact members, one’s connection was severed entirely, whereas one was still fully strong. Obviously the strong one is Taln.

I feel pretty comfortable believing that Battar is the one who fully disconnected from the Oathpact by betraying it.

I am pretty certain that the severed one is Jezrien who is (mostly) dead by this point and thus cannot by connected. Arguably Battar actions weren't that much worse that those of others, such as Nale murderous spree or Ishar everything. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Not all of the Herald's madness was caused by Ishar's foolhardy use of Odium's Perpendicularity.

Tanavast himself saw what the Heralds were becoming, with him viewing Nale as becoming too rigid, Jezrien hating himself, Vedel becoming indifferent, and as for Battar.

Tanavast saw Battar as becoming 'so cruel'.

And that was before they broke the Oathpact.

That fact, combined with the interlude, makes it quite clear that she will inevitably betray the others, though it won't be for Taravangian, it'll be for her own gain and no one else's. Taravangian already saw that, with how mercenary she has become. Battar will fight for the highest bidder, which unfortunately is Taravangian.

[Aon Tia she/her]

I personally do not trust her much! Her expression, her greed, not to mention the prize which T offered, getting off the Rosharan System was something too tempting for her. 

Some of the blackness has lifted after BAM was released but I dont think that magically completely cures them, so she is, if not a mole, then a dangerous opportunist. She is a big liability on the Team Herald.  

[Argenti he/him]

8 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

In the RoW scene where Dalinar Connects with Nale, we learn that of the 9 remaining Oathpact members, one’s connection was severed entirely, whereas one was still fully strong. Obviously the strong one is Taln.

I feel pretty comfortable believing that Battar is the one who fully disconnected from the Oathpact by betraying it. At an absolute minimum, she knew her work on the Diagram was contrary to the purpose of the Oathpact; more likely she also knew that the Diagram was going to bring Taravangian to power, and made a conscious decision to fully break the Oathpact.

The broken link is Jezrian, is it not? He died at this point. That part of the oathpact is broken, fully.

[coolsnow7]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

The broken link is Jezrian, is it not? He died at this point. That part of the oathpact is broken, fully.

No! Jezrien’s link is simply not there!

[alder24]

19 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I am still surprised that Battar returned to support the Oathpact. I was sure she would not return based on what we saw and in light of all Taravangian could promise her. What more could someone offer Battar than Taravangian?

Keep in mind that despite what Ishar claimed, Ishar was the primary reason for Herald's madness. By holding the power of Odium, Ishar corrupted Heralds through their bond. Battar greed was caused by it, just like Nale's condition and when Kaladin swore the 5th Ideal, he cleansed Ishar and the rest of the Heralds. They are still insane with their individual problems, but most of their madness should be gone now.

If Battar after all of this was still wanting to work for Odium, she would have refused to join the new Oathpact and thus doom them, which would serve Taravangian the most. She joined it, which I think strongly suggests that she genuinely wanted to help fight against Retribution. WaT ch 140:

Quote

Kaladin felt he could see the power of the Fifth Ideal pushing back the blackness through that tether, like a drain being flooded in the wrong direction, until it reached Ishar and he gasped again. Black smoke exploded out of the Herald, pushed from his pores like Stormlight.
Kaladin distinctly thought he heard, echoing through that failing bond, the gasps of eight other people as an unacknowledged darkness left them. An oppressive cloud that Ishar thought he’d been holding back, but had in reality been infecting every Herald. The blackness he’d absorbed from Odium centuries ago, by finding his pool of power.
It wouldn’t heal them, lifting this dark cloud. Their wounds stretched back millennia before Ishar’s terrible decision. However, this might help open a path to healing.

 

19 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Mix: Battar is Honestly Joining, but is Bound by an Oath to Odium

Yeah, I think this will happen. It looks like Odium made at least a promise to Dova, if not a binding deal. If that was an Oath, then Battar will have to carefully balance on the edge of the knife, otherwise she will be put fully in the hand of Tara and he will be able to destroy her, breaking the Oathpact. 

 

12 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I feel pretty comfortable believing that Battar is the one who fully disconnected from the Oathpact by betraying it.

That was Jezrien, because he's dead. Battar was not working with Odium back then.

3 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

No! Jezrien’s link is simply not there!

The one that's not there is Nale's. The Oathpact Connects every Herald with each other, that means every Herald is Connected to 9 other Heralds - Nale can't be Connected to himself. The broken one is Jezrien, the strong one is Taln, the rest are Connecting him to other Heralds, including Battar. 

[+robardin he/him]

15 hours ago, Ookla the Pancake said:

I think in her mind, she's going to play both sides until she can decide what gets her more personal gain. This might change if she gets Kaladin Therapy(tm) though.

The problem is, her "contract" with Odium is probably still binding. And the reason they're able to form the New Oathpact is because they contain so much of Honor from being made Heralds in the first one, which in turn is going to hold her to that, even if she made it while "corrupted".

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I’m going to toss in that Ishar bribed Battar to rejoin the Oathpact, as no one seems to have suggested that highly entertaining angle. 
 

On a more serious note, the most interesting thing narratively would be if she is a double agent and still works for Retrivangian. The specific mention of her reaction to the reforging implies that something is still up with her, while the other Heralds are more ”normal” again. 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Toaster Retribution

[Subvisual Haze]

I was kind of surprised by the absolute lack of care Honor put into vetting the Heralds in the first place.  He basically just choose 10 people who were available and willing!  It's not surprising if one or two bad apples snuck in who just enjoyed the prospect of being immortal (what if Battar was just an equivalent of Gavilar?).  Clearing up the trauma via Kaladin-brand therapy in such a case wouldn't necessary result in a good person.  At best therapy process the trauma and help self-actualize, but that doesn't necessarily result in a "good person". 

The Sopranos rather cleverly covered this limitation of therapy as a mechanism for betterment.  Take a mob boss suffering from panic attacks, apply therapy, yield a more efficient mob boss?  I guess maybe if you apply Clockwork Orange therapeutic techniques you could change a "bad person" into a "good person", but you shatter free will in the process.

[RedBlue]

I find it very interesting how fans have reacted to the various Heralds’ personal issues. It seems that there are some character flaws that are seen as sympathetic, or at least possible to overcome. Then there are other character flaws which are read as automatic signs of villainy.

Megalomania? Kaladin can fix it. Murderous fanaticism? Fixable. Cowardice? How sad. Compulsive vandalism? Barely an issue.

But greed? Better keep an eye on her! Who knows what she might get up to?

To be clear, I’m not discounting the set-up of Battah making a deal with Odium, because that interlude exists for a reason. But I think it’s premature to jump to the conclusion that Battah is inherently a worse person than the others.

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

1 minute ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I was kind of surprised by the absolute lack of care Honor put into vetting the Heralds in the first place.  He basically just choose 10 people who were available and willing!  It's not surprising if one or two bad apples snuck in who just enjoyed the prospect of being immortal (what if Battar was just an equivalent of Gavilar?).  Clearing up the trauma via Kaladin-brand therapy in such a case wouldn't necessary result in a good person.  At best therapy process the trauma and help self-actualize, but that doesn't necessarily result in a "good person". 

The Sopranos rather cleverly covered this limitation of therapy as a mechanism for betterment.  Take a mob boss suffering from panic attacks, apply therapy, yield a more efficient mob boss?  I guess maybe if you apply Clockwork Orange therapeutic techniques you could change a "bad person" into a "good person", but you shatter free will in the process.

From what I understood he needed people with a connection to Odium. I think they may have been the few invested enough when on Ashen to have their aging slowed and so were the only survivors that could be used for the binding oaths.