What was Autonomy Doing?!

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

So now that we know that Retribution exists before the events of the Wax and Wayne novels, and that the Shards of the Cosmere took notice of it very quickly...

why on Earth would Autonomy move against Harmony? Did we get any hints that she was for the purposes of trying to unite the powers against a coming threat? I don't remember any such references, but it has been a while so I could be wrong. Another potential option is that Autonomy decided to side with retribution, and we were seeing the beginnings of an inter-Shardic war, but if that's the case how did Sazed not see any of it coming?

Additionally, in The Lost Metal, we get a line (that if I remember correctly is from Kelsier's perspective) that states that Dlavil's sister runs rampant on Roshar. Wouldn't Kelsier have the knowledge of Iyatil's death by this point? Or is the time distortion so great that by the time he and Shallan manage to have their conversation about the Ghostbloods the events of The Lost Metal have already happened?

Am I missing some things?

[Arceoxys he/him]

I believe based on the timeline that Retribution was made concurrently with TLM, not before. Kelsier mentioned that the time will normalize in 70-80 years off-world, and 10 years on-world. BS has said that the next Mistborn trilogy will take place 70-80 years after Wax & Wayne.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

4 minutes ago, Arceoxys said:

I believe based on the timeline that Retribution was made concurrently with TLM, not before

I don't know if this can be correct though, because Hoid's ending has him waking up on Scadrial and then applying for a job as Wax's coachman after the last one 'drove off a cliff,' (ie. the accident that faked Edwarn's death) and I'm fairly certain that he is Wax's driver as early as Shadows of Self, so as far as I can tell that's where our timelines align with each other.

Which means that Retribution is known to them throughout the majority of Era 2.

[i’m in the details]

I actually think it makes sense for autonomy to make her move for two reasons: an avatar invested in Scadrial is safe from retribution until Harmony is killed, and if she wants that protection she needs to slip in before discord/prevent discord. So Bav was making her play at the perfect time

[Elder]

16 minutes ago, Arceoxys said:

I believe based on the timeline that Retribution was made concurrently with TLM, not before. Kelsier mentioned that the time will normalize in 70-80 years off-world, and 10 years on-world. BS has said that the next Mistborn trilogy will take place 70-80 years after Wax & Wayne.

Hoid applies for his job as the Ladrian coachman (the job he has in TLM) at the end of WaT.

 

to answer the main question of this thread, I’ll point out that Autonomy has been working slowly against Harmony for a long time.  Trellism predated the Lord Ruler.  The Set was operating before Wax left the Roughs.  We’re seeing a vast conspiracy come to a head, not a sudden attack.  She probably felt the need to get the situation settled so she could focus on the new threat, but her operations against Harmony started back when she probably figured the Shards on Roshar were going to kill one another.

Plus, Autonomy, with all her avatars, is probably quite good a multitasking.

[Forged Herald]

“Autonomy is driven to divide off from the rest of us, go her own way. She pushes her followers to prove themselves, and she rewards those who are bold, who survive against the odds. She respects big plans and big accomplishments. ”

—Harmony^[1]

I was reading the Coppermind on Autonomy to refresh what we know (I don't really like W&W, even though I like Wax and love Wayne) and this first quote stood out.

[Elder]

34 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

So now that we know that Retribution exists before the events of the Wax and Wayne novels, and that the Shards of the Cosmere took notice of it very quickly...

why on Earth would Autonomy move against Harmony? Did we get any hints that she was for the purposes of trying to unite the powers against a coming threat? I don't remember any such references, but it has been a while so I could be wrong. Another potential option is that Autonomy decided to side with retribution, and we were seeing the beginnings of an inter-Shardic war, but if that's the case how did Sazed not see any of it coming?

Additionally, in The Lost Metal, we get a line (that if I remember correctly is from Kelsier's perspective) that states that Dlavil's sister runs rampant on Roshar. Wouldn't Kelsier have the knowledge of Iyatil's death by this point? Or is the time distortion so great that by the time he and Shallan manage to have their conversation about the Ghostbloods the events of The Lost Metal have already happened?

Am I missing some things?

Iirc, that chapter was from the perspective of Twin Soul, who may also be in the dark about Iyatil’s death.

[Isilel]

On 12/12/2024 at 3:21 PM, a Faceless Immortal said:

I don't know if this can be correct though, because Hoid's ending has him waking up on Scadrial

 

Yes, but Hoid was... ejected from Roshar either before the slowing started or a couple of minutes in it. Shallan had wandered in Rosharan Shadesmar for a couple of months before contacting Kelsier, when the slowing was at it's strongest. Therefore years passed on Scadrial between Hoid's last appearance in WaT and hers. In their talk, Kelsier mentioned a crisis*, that they had just had, which fits the events of TLM.

*I wrote "incident" at first, but the real quote is "crisis".

Edited December 14, 2024 by Isilel

[Elder]

10 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

Yes, but Hoid was... ejected from Roshar either before the slowing started or a couple of minutes in it. Shallan had wandered in Rosharan Shadesmar for a couple of months before contacting Kelsier, when the slowing was at it's strongest. Therefore years passed on Scadrial between Hoid's last appearance in WaT and hers. In their talk, Kelsier mentioned a serious"incident" they had just had, which fits the events of TLM.

The incident could just as easily have been the bands of truth.  Or even Melaan’s little uprising 

[Argenti he/him]

26 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

Yes, but Hoid was... ejected from Roshar either before the slowing started or a couple of minutes in it. Shallan had wandered in Rosharan Shadesmar for a couple of months before contacting Kelsier, when the slowing was at it's strongest. Therefore years passed on Scadrial between Hoid's last appearance in WaT and hers. In their talk, Kelsier mentioned a serious"incident" they had just had, which fits the events of TLM.

Yes, this makes sense.  The timeline is a little tight, but it works.

[NH2316]

I appreciate this thread. Autonomy's motivation in those books didn't make a ton of sense to me when reading them the first time, and that specifically took a lot of enjoyment away from me. Brandon is pretty good at writing well-characterized villains with clear and interesting motivations (e.g. taravangian, the Lord Ruler, Szeth, Moash, Gavilar, Sadeas), but Trell/Autonomy's motivation felt to me (back when I read MB Era 2) very vague and confusing....which ultimately made them seem like a relatively generic "cosmic bad guy".

I'm interested to re-read the Wax & Wayne books now post-WaT, to see if it is clearer now what/why Autonomy moved on Sazed & Scadrial.  

WaT did clear up for me one of the other issues I had with the W&W books, namely the motivation of the Ghost Bloods on Scadrial vs. on Roshar (I know not everyone may feel this way, but Ialtyl & Mraize's goals & seeming divergence from Kelsier made a lot more sense to me after WaT).  Ironically, if I were recommending a cosmere reading order to a new reader, I'd probably now suggest reading W&W after finishing Stormlight Arc 1 for that reason on its own.

[StanLemon]

Autonomy was clearly in action on Scadrial well before the events of WaT. Knowing that, I think Autonomy had no intention of calling quits just because Retribution came into existence. 

Hoid was on Scadrial during AoL and was the Ladrian coachman during SoS. Considering this, the events of WaT had to have happened at latest, just a bit before SoS. Possibly even before AoL, but maybe he went to that wedding during the the time skip between OB and RoW.

[Forged Herald]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

Yes, but Hoid was... ejected from Roshar either before the slowing started or a couple of minutes in it. Shallan had wandered in Rosharan Shadesmar for a couple of months before contacting Kelsier, when the slowing was at it's strongest. Therefore years passed on Scadrial between Hoid's last appearance in WaT and hers. In their talk, Kelsier mentioned a serious"incident" they had just had, which fits the events of TLM.

I don't know in TLM there are A LOT of Roshar fugitives. Could be due to the True Desolation and not because of Retribution and Night of Sorrows

[Markolius]

After reading this thread, a few questions crept into my mind:

In LM, when Steris saves a day, we saw a group of possible Ghostblood Skybreakers (we can't be sure, but they very suspiciously asked about laws). 

1. So how did they come to Scadrial from Roshar so quickly if on Roshar time was warped?

2. Which type of investiture do they use to power their abilities?

3. Why was Mraize requested to recruit a Radiant for Ghostbloods if they have a full group of them?

4. Which Skybreakers are they? I think it's probably a group that left Nale, but who knows...

Of course, maybe they weren't Skybreakers, and all this question doesn't make sense. But what are your thoughts?

 

[Brgst13]

14 minutes ago, Markolius said:

After reading this thread, a few questions crept into my mind:

In LM, when Steris saves a day, we saw a group of possible Ghostblood Skybreakers (we can't be sure, but they very suspiciously asked about laws). 

1. So how did they come to Scadrial from Roshar so quickly if on Roshar time was warped?

2. Which type of investiture do they use to power their abilities?

3. Why was Mraize requested to recruit a Radiant for Ghostbloods if they have a full group of them?

4. Which Skybreakers are they? I think it's probably a group that left Nale, but who knows...

Of course, maybe they weren't Skybreakers, and all this question doesn't make sense. But what are your thoughts?

 

There is the "dissident group" mentioned in WaT.  But how are they powering their abilities?

[Isilel]

3 hours ago, Elder said:

The incident could just as easily have been the bands of truth.  Or even Melaan’s little uprising 

 

Sorry, I looked at their conversation again and Kelsier spoke of a crisis not an incident. Which neither of events you mentioned was for the Ghostbloods, since they chose not to involve themselves. And generally vastly underestimated the Set.

 

1 hour ago, Forged Herald said:

I don't know in TLM there are A LOT of Roshar fugitives. Could be due to the True Desolation and not because of Retribution and Night of Sorrows

 

There clearly are some Iriali in Bilming, but not a country's worth. IMHO, those are the forerunners and the main migration got caught in the slowness bubble and didn't yet arrive. I have thought since OB that Iriali leaders had known that exodus was at hand and that was one of the reasons why they didn't join the Coalition. Would make sense for them to have sent some scouts ahead. 

 

46 minutes ago, Markolius said:

 

In LM, when Steris saves a day, we saw a group of possible Ghostblood Skybreakers (we can't be sure, but they very suspiciously asked about laws). 

1. So how did they come to Scadrial from Roshar so quickly if on Roshar time was warped?

2. Which type of investiture do they use to power their abilities?

 

If they were dissident Skybreakers, who were living at the edge of Rosharan Shadesmar, then it would have been possible for them to get out as soon as their spren could leave and not get slowed down too much. In this case, they would have become Ghostbloods after their escape and wholly independently of the Rosharan operation.

And Kelsier released purified Dor for use by all Ghostblood cells that could help, so that's what they'd power their abilities with. However, it would have been pretty dumb not to send at least some of them to Bilming, since they could have flown there in time and would have been a lot of help.

I hope that they are not Skybreakers, but after WaT a very slim possibility exists. 

[Forged Herald]

14 minutes ago, Isilel said:

There clearly are some Iriali in Bilming, but not a country's worth. IMHO, those are the forerunners and the main migration got caught in the slowness bubble and didn't yet arrive. I have thought since OB that Iriali leaders had known that exodus was at hand and that was one of the reasons why they didn't join the Coalition. Would make sense for them to have sent some scouts ahead. 

I don't remember all that well, because, as I said, I don't really like era 2 as much and haven't reread anything, but I remember distinctly Wayne eating Chouta and at least one Horneater. There where more implications about Rosharan refugees, but I don't remember the details.

[Elder]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

Sorry, I looked at their conversation again and Kelsier spoke of a crisis not an incident. Which neither of events you mentioned was for the Ghostbloods, since they chose not to involve themselves. And generally vastly underestimated the Set.

 

 

 

A fair assumption, but frankly we don’t know what the Ghostbloods were or weren’t doing during those books. They were also operating a lot more among the Malwish, so the problem could have been there.

More definitively, Hoid was literally applying for the job he had in The Lost Metal (if not sooner). He had a crisis on Scadrial to resolve before he could go seek Valor.  That was TLT, where he directly interacted with Wax and Wayne.

 

Edited December 12, 2024 by Elder