Cognitive time dilation

[Jbbi]

We see at the end of WAT that the impact of Retribution creation has warped time both in physical and cognitive realm, which raises a couple of questions for me:

1) we see Shallan communicating with Kelsier via Seon from Shadesmar to (guessing) Scadrial physical realm. From the conversation we’re told of the time dilation (showing that Shadesmar was affected by time/investiture timewhimey stuff) but eventually it will match back up. BUT is the time difference the same for both Shadesmare and Roshar physical?

Given how cognitive realm is effected by how it’s thought. If vast majority of sapience in Roshar physical see time as normal is that what dictates the time impacting term for Shadesmar? What impact do we think rest of Cosmere perception of the time difference will have?

2) Given how both the investiture of Dominion and Devotion- The Dor is in Sel’s cognitive realm, does time there also move differently and that’s a big part why is difficult to travel? Could it behave more like the spiritual realm time?

3) Was Seon communication ‘simple’ because they’ve experienced this from the above question?

4) could there be any weird impacts for a  Cadmium or Bendalloy user?

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, Jbbi said:

1) we see Shallan communicating with Kelsier via Seon from Shadesmar to (guessing) Scadrial physical realm. From the conversation we’re told of the time dilation (showing that Shadesmar was affected by time/investiture timewhimey stuff) but eventually it will match back up. BUT is the time difference the same for both Shadesmare and Roshar physical?

 

I would assume so, or nearly the same. The cognitive is shaped by sentients in the world, so even if the cognitive isn't directly effected (It probably is), the perceptions of time should affect it.

2 hours ago, Jbbi said:

Given how cognitive realm is effected by how it’s thought. If vast majority of sapience in Roshar physical see time as normal is that what dictates the time impacting term for Shadesmar? What impact do we think rest of Cosmere perception of the time difference will have?

 

As above. It's probably affected by the same investiture storm, but if it isn't, everyone's perceptions should do it anyway.

2 hours ago, Jbbi said:

2) Given how both the investiture of Dominion and Devotion- The Dor is in Sel’s cognitive realm, does time there also move differently and that’s a big part why is difficult to travel? Could it behave more like the spiritual realm time?

 

Yes, Sel has some time warping, due to the "closeness" of the shard's power warping spacetime, but the cognitive realm shouldn't act like the spiritual. It's dangerous to get there cus of the GIANT PLASMA STORM THAT BLANKETS THE ENTIRE SUBASTRAL. It should still follow the normal cognitive realm rules.

2 hours ago, Jbbi said:

3) Was Seon communication ‘simple’ because they’ve experienced this from the above question?

 

   I assume it's just cause they're magical, instant, and work across all realms. Way better than a letter, no?

 

2 hours ago, Jbbi said:

4) could there be any weird impacts for a  Cadmium or Bendalloy user?

I doubt it. They're relative to motion, so they're probably relative to time too. It might be harder to go for an exact time, since time's passage is changing, but overall it should remain the same.

[Elder]

I wondered if Kelsier could have used a Cadmium allomancer to sync up the communication… but I doubt that would be practical.  Losing time for the sake of avoiding lag is putting the cart before the horse… but I’d be tempted.

Remind me of the scale here?  How long on Roshar before they get synced?

Edited December 11, 2024 by Elder

[Argenti he/him]

2 minutes ago, Elder said:

I wondered if Kelsier could have used a Cadmium allomancer to sync up the communication… but I doubt that would be practical.  Losing time for the sake of avoiding lag is putting the cart before the horse… but I’d be tempted.

Remind me of the scale here?  How long on Roshar before they get synced?

80 years on the outside, 10 inside.

[Elder]

 

Just now, Argenti said:

80 years on the outside, 10 inside.

Thank you.  So, right on time for SA 6-10  and Mistborn Era 3.  This should be great.

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, Elder said:

 

Thank you.  So, right on time for SA 6-10  and Mistborn Era 3.  This should be great.

Yeah It was a convenient trick to help line up the timelines of roshar with mistborn, tress, and the secret novels.

[feruchemicalrockband]

Was the temporal anomaly due to two Shards merging, or specifically because of Honor and Odium merging? If it was just because of two Shards, doesn't this change the timeline of Scadrial? Era 1 to Era 2 would be roughly 400 years to the rest of the Cosmere, not 300 as we've been told.

[Forged Herald]

3 minutes ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

Was the temporal anomaly due to two Shards merging, or specifically because of Honor and Odium merging? If it was just because of two Shards, doesn't this change the timeline of Scadrial? Era 1 to Era 2 would be roughly 400 years to the rest of the Cosmere, not 300 as we've been told.

My explanation is more Meta:

 

Brandon was playing around with the timeline and it didn't quite fit so he used time dilation to get exactly to the point he wanted to. He may decide later if that means 80 or 120 years.

Scadrial has pretty much passed the Industrial Revolution in Era 2 so 80 years time in earth would be somewhere between WW1 and WW2. But it could be more years and with unlocked metalminds advancements could be way faster than here on earth (specially if preparing war against Roshar).

 

 

[Elder]

40 minutes ago, Forged Herald said:

My explanation is more Meta:

 

Brandon was playing around with the timeline and it didn't quite fit so he used time dilation to get exactly to the point he wanted to. He may decide later if that means 80 or 120 years.

Scadrial has pretty much passed the Industrial Revolution in Era 2 so 80 years time in earth would be somewhere between WW1 and WW2. But it could be more years and with unlocked metalminds advancements could be way faster than here on earth (specially if preparing war against Roshar).

 

 

I think Mistborn Era 3 is supposed to be early computers, which could translate to early space exploration (rockets, Apollo program, nothing too fancy).

[Forged Herald]

4 minutes ago, Elder said:

I think Mistborn Era 3 is supposed to be early computers, which could translate to early space exploration (rockets, Apollo program, nothing too fancy).

Yeah, Cold War vibes. It feels kind of reasonable with the speed at which technology can advance with Investiture and a little of Sazed guidind plus whtever they can pry off of Worldhoppers.

[Elder]

15 minutes ago, Forged Herald said:

Yeah, Cold War vibes. It feels kind of reasonable with the speed at which technology can advance with Investiture and a little of Sazed guidind plus whtever they can pry off of Worldhoppers.

Cold War is a pretty good parallel, given Relations between Elendel and the Malwish.  And they’ll need to get their act together with Retribution out there.

[DiePie]

5 hours ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

Was the temporal anomaly due to two Shards merging, or specifically because of Honor and Odium merging? If it was just because of two Shards, doesn't this change the timeline of Scadrial? Era 1 to Era 2 would be roughly 400 years to the rest of the Cosmere, not 300 as we've been told.

My headcannon rn is that this was a purposeful ploy to try and manage escalation with other shards. He already has armies, and so doesn't need that long to build up before starting skirmishing with minor planets, perhaps controlled by shards nobody likes (or ones without any shards at all). He is also inheriting all the governments of Roshar, rather than having to spend generations building institutions, and perhaps the 3rd most technologically advanced (though most rapidly advancing) planet in the Cosmere. If he attacked immediately, the rest of the shards might try to gang up on him (I believe there's a throwaway line the final Retributions chapter about how he went into hiding for 3 months for this reason). So he could wait, and let his armies decay and his people let generations of peace accustom them to only fighting among themselves. Or speed up time a little, and let Scadrial pass Roshar technologically, and let all the other shards say "now Scadrial is stronger than Roshar, so they'll just deal with each other". Then they can go back to kicking cans down roads, or whatever shards do these days.

[alder24]

On 12/11/2024 at 1:55 PM, Jbbi said:

1) we see Shallan communicating with Kelsier via Seon from Shadesmar to (guessing) Scadrial physical realm. From the conversation we’re told of the time dilation (showing that Shadesmar was affected by time/investiture timewhimey stuff) but eventually it will match back up. BUT is the time difference the same for both Shadesmare and Roshar physical?

Given how cognitive realm is effected by how it’s thought. If vast majority of sapience in Roshar physical see time as normal is that what dictates the time impacting term for Shadesmar? What impact do we think rest of Cosmere perception of the time difference will have?

Perception shouldn't matter here, time dilation is the same for PR and CR.

Spoiler

Stuart Eliason

If a planet was orbiting a black hole, would time be distorted in the Cognitive Realm in that area the same way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good question. And in fact, if you could get enough Investiture, it will do the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

On 12/11/2024 at 1:55 PM, Jbbi said:

2) Given how both the investiture of Dominion and Devotion- The Dor is in Sel’s cognitive realm, does time there also move differently and that’s a big part why is difficult to travel? Could it behave more like the spiritual realm time?

It's mainly because Selish CR is filled with a deadly plasma storm, but there is time dilation there. How big it is we don't know, it might have partially caused problems in getting in and out of Sel and there is one WoB that suggests time dilation affected Kaise from Sel who was on Scadrial during TLM. Whether this happened because of the Dor on Sel, or due to some other things related to common methods used by Worldhoppers to slow down aging is unknown.

Spoiler

Jeremy

If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that.

That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Argent

We've always understood Elantris to be one of the earliest books in the Cosmere, but we see Kaise as Codenames in The Lost Metal, one of the latest books. Has the timeline contracted significantly, or are we just looking at the typical Shadesmar time dilation tricks?

Brandon Sanderson

So, here's thing, Argent. I'm not going to be able to give you strict timelines until I write Elantris 2 and 3. So my plan, originally, which might have been a bad plan, was Elantris 2 to take place some ten or fifteen years after Elantris 1. Maybe a little less than that. But years have passed. It was called Dakhor, in my notes. And then for 3 to be hundreds of years later. I don't know if that's the right move anymore, and if 3 isn't hundreds of years later, then where we slot Elantris in is going to change because of where I need certain characters to be in some of these things, and certain things to happen. We are getting really close to where this is going to be nailed down and locked down, and I'll get locked down. Probably right when we start Era 3 is when all of this is just gonna start... I've promised you guys a timeline. Once we've released that, we don't want to retcon it, does that make sense? So that's why we're waiting to release it.

But Kaise does have some time dilation going on, though. Though I say her name wrong because I'm not from Sel. But yeah, she has time dilation going on, she is... yeah. More time has passed than the ten or so years that... she's like what, 7 in Elantris? And she's like young 20s now, visibly, the age that she appears. I believe, something like that. So yeah, there you go. There's some information for you on that. I'm playing loose and free with this until I really get down to writing these. My loose plan is still write Mistborn Era 3 book 1, Elantris 2, Era 3 book 2, Elantris 3, Era 3 book 3. Five years of writing there that I can't even really think about until I've got Stormlight 5 in Tor's hands, if not your hands.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

[teknopathetic he/him]

We know of another Cognitive anomaly on Nalthis. I wonder if it is a related phenomenon at all. Although maybe Endowment was trapped somehow. It seems like she only recently was allowed to give people breath for some reason. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Argenti he/him]

53 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

We know of another Cognitive anomaly on Nalthis. I wonder if it is a related phenomenon at all. Although maybe Endowment was trapped somehow. It seems like she only recently was allowed to give people breath for some reason. 

What do you mean? She's always been able to give people breaths? 

[teknopathetic he/him]

23 minutes ago, Argenti said:

What do you mean? She's always been able to give people breaths? 

As far as we have heard from Vasher, the active use of the magic system is less than 1000 years old on Nalthis. Breath manipulation is a really new turn of events, people only recently started returning 300 years before Vasher returned, the flowers were only recently found, and collecting large amounts breaths seems to be a very new as well. Nalthian magic is very localized and only seems to have been actively manipulates for less than 1000 years. Maybe people each had a breath for a long time, but things like returning seem new. 

The indigenous population doesn't seem to have claimed that they used to manipulate breaths, return, or use the flowers for any particularly dramatic magical use. Cosmere readers have wondered why there seems to be a dramatic change in what Endowment lets people access on Nalthis. Some people even thought maybe she only recently showed up on the planet or only recently created the planet. We also have that strange Cognitive Anomaly which has never been explained.

Coppermind:

Quote

Three hundred years after the arrival of Vo,^[3] these Returned would be renamed as Talaxin and Shashara respectively and joined with other Returned^[25] Arsteel, Yesteel, and VaraTreledees to form the Five Scholars. The years preceding the Manywar were ones of quick discovery about Awakening led by the Scholars.^[3] Beyond this, some of them became worldhoppers.^[26] Their discoveries about Awakening and their exploration of the cosmere cemented the legacy of these Nalthians as early scholars of the cosmere by those at Silverlight.^[27]

-----

Wind and Truth Letter Between Hoid and Endowment: 

Quote

I have kept my part of the bargain, and will not be budged. I have stayed upon my land, bringing blessings to the people of Nalthis—gifting them the power of gods, as I was so long denied. I do not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Originally I read the quote below as meaning Endowment was denied the ability to grant her Endowment powers to her followers until recently. Maybe there is another meaning? Edgli is not a dragon as far as I know, so i don't think anyone was denying her dragon powers. Maybe Edgli was denied god powers before she ascended? Or maybe my reading was right and for some reason she was denied the ability to grant returns etc until recently.

I had discounted Edgli as a dragon because Brandon said only 1 vessel was a gragon. However, now that Valor is also a dragon, perhaps Edgli is one as well.

One theory I had was that she had promised Honour not to grant "surges" as it were, but once he died she started doing it. 
 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

As far as we have heard from Vasher, the magic system only has a few hundred years of history on Nalthis. Breath manipulation is a really new turn of events, people only recently started returning, the flowers were only recently found, and collecting breaths seems to be a very new. The indigenous population doesnt seem to have claimed that they used to manipulate breaths, return, or use the flowers for any particularly dramatic magical use. People have wondered why there seems to be a dramatic change in what Endowment lets people access on Nalthis. SOme people even thought maybe she only recently showed up on the planet.

We also have that strange Cognitive Anomaly which has never been explained.

Originally I read the quote below as meaning Endowment was denied the ability to grant her Endowment. powers to her followers until recently. Maybe there is another meaning? Edgli is not a dragon as far as I know, so i don't think anyone was denying her dragon powers.

People discovered how to use breaths; at least to awaken. It's not a simple thing to do. You need a single, specific command to even get enough breaths to fool around with it. You won't get instinctual awakening from anyone other than a returned, and they're kind of screwed if they awaken. I suspect that breaths have been around for longer, the average person just didn't know how to use it. It seems like hoid is storing his memory in them, and while it could be a recent thing, he probably would have gone mad if he didn't have a different way to store them. Fortune, along with being super invested would help with figuring out commands. Plus, no one around him speaks yolish, so no one will figure out a command! 

As for the quote... It's possibly referring to something pre-shattering? Binding a shard from their power, while never even going into their system is hard. Blocking the giving shard from giving is probably even harder.

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

People discovered how to use breaths; at least to awaken. It's not a simple thing to do. You need a single, specific command to even get enough breaths to fool around with it. You won't get instinctual awakening from anyone other than a returned, and they're kind of screwed if they awaken. I suspect that breaths have been around for longer, the average person just didn't know how to use it. It seems like hoid is storing his memory in them, and while it could be a recent thing, he probably would have gone mad if he didn't have a different way to store them. Fortune, along with being super invested would help with figuring out commands. Plus, no one around him speaks yolish, so no one will figure out a command! 

As for the quote... It's possibly referring to something pre-shattering? Binding a shard from their power, while never even going into their system is hard. Blocking the giving shard from giving is probably even harder.

Possible for sure. But the fact people discovered how to actively manipulate breaths around the time Vo became the first returned is suspicious timing. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

Possible for sure. But the fact people discovered how to use breaths around the time Vo became the first returned is suspicious timing. 

Well, Vo had very deep knowledge about breaths, and his circumstance. It wouldn't be too surprising if he said something that enabled breath research. Vision Six, Anyone?

[teknopathetic he/him]

6 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Well, Vo had very deep knowledge about breaths, and his circumstance. It wouldn't be too surprising if he said something that enabled breath research. Vision Six, Anyone?

Vo was one of the foreign invaders that explored the valley for the first time (for his people I mean).

Coppermind:

Quote

Vo was a member of the Chedesh people that dominated ancient Nalthis. Around three hundred years prior to the Manywar, the Chedesh sent expeditions west across the Inner Sea in search of new lands. Vo was a member of an expedition that discovered a paradise-like valley with numerous unusual properties, including the only known habitat of Tears of Edgli.^[1] Unbeknown to the Chedesh, the jungles of this valley held Endowment's perpendicularity.^[6] Vo died under unknown circumstances around the same time the valley was discovered, and was soon reborn in the bay adjacent to modern-day T'Telir.^[1] Endowment chose to give him a divine Breath hoping that he would fulfill some sort of unknown purpose.^[7][8]

Vo was presumably an adult when he died; although he only lived for a week after Returning, he spoke the five Visions and impregnated his wife in that time.^{[1][fn 1]} The circumstances of his death are unknown, but he likely lived seven days before his body consumed its divine Breath on the eighth day.^[9][10]

Vo shouldn't have known anything about awakening until the return - and even if he did know, he would forget about it as he returned with a mind-wipe. This means Endowment or another entity would have had to share the information with Vo after dying and then let Vo return to spread the information on how to utilize breaths in the first place. 

So Vo could be both the first returned and the way Endowment got people to start playing around with breath. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Argenti he/him]

9 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Vo was one of the foreign invaders that explored the valley for the first time (for his people I mean).

Coppermind:

Vo shouldn't have known anything about awakening until the return - and even if he did know, he would forget about it as he returned with a mind-wipe. This means Endowment or another entity would have had to share the information with Vo after dying and then let Vo return to spread the information on how to utilize breaths in the first place. 

So Vo could be both the first returned and the way Endowment got people to start playing around with breath. 

Yes. That's exactly what I mean. His return either granted him access to fortune, or Endowment put it in his brain.

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

Yes. That's exactly what I mean. His return either granted him access to fortune, or Endowment put it in his brain.

But why then? Maybe she hadn’t been allowed to for some reason like that quote from WoT might imply. 

[Argenti he/him]

10 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

But why then? Maybe she hadn’t been allowed to for some reason like that quote from WoT might imply. 

Absolutely no idea! I assume she has good future sight, so maybe time was ripe?

[Calten_Gnomercy]

So if there is a time dilation of 80:10 that means Scadrial will realize 80 years of technical advancement starting from a point with automobiles, guns, and skyscrapers. Where Roshar will advance 10 years from a point of clocks, horse back and carriage travel?

 

I guess they’re more advanced on Roshar with fabrials, but there’s no stormlight to advance right now. Thus all advancement at this point comes from the Singers using War light?

 

On the surface it feels like Scadrial will be WAY ahead technologically.

 

Or am I thinking about it backwards?

[Elder]

10 hours ago, Calten_Gnomercy said:

So if there is a time dilation of 80:10 that means Scadrial will realize 80 years of technical advancement starting from a point with automobiles, guns, and skyscrapers. Where Roshar will advance 10 years from a point of clocks, horse back and carriage travel?

 

I guess they’re more advanced on Roshar with fabrials, but there’s no stormlight to advance right now. Thus all advancement at this point comes from the Singers using War light?

 

On the surface it feels like Scadrial will be WAY ahead technologically.

 

Or am I thinking about it backwards?

Mistborn Era 3 is supposed to be right around that 80 year mark.  As I understand it, the tech level will be early computers.  Possibly early space exploration on the level of, say, the Apollo program.  
 

Artifabrians among the singers or even in Urithiru could indeed come up with the space tech to match as they develop and refine Navani’s discoveries with conjoined Fabrials.  
 

if Retribution is smart, he’ll spur this on.  That said, he seems much more of an authoritarian god. That may or may not help.