Kelsier's Decension? Is Harmony "wrong"?

[Qianweilian He/him]

When I was reading, this passage caught my attention when Hoid is talking to Dalinar about the Spiritual Realm. The passage is this on page 244:

Quote

Wit grew distant, a faint smile on his lips. “Once. It wasn’t a full Ascension, but a mortal did give up the power once. It proved to be the wrong choice, but it was the most selfless thing I believe I’ve ever witnessed. So yes, Dalinar, it is possible. But not easy.”

 

To my knowledge, this is Kelsier when he gave up Preservation to Vin in Secret History. But here, Hoid says it was the "wrong" choice. Does this mean Vin killed Ati was the "wrong" outcome? Should Kelsier have united Ruin and Preservation? Should they have stayed apart? Or is it just Hoid saying it wasn't the best for Kelsier. I see two possibilities, either it's nothing and Kelsier himself would be better off as a Shard, or... Harmony was not supposed to happen. What if Sazed isn't the Hero of Ages? What if Autonomy somehow corrupted the prophecies like Ruin did in the original series? I think this is critical to focus on...

 

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, Qianweilian said:

When I was reading, this passage caught my attention when Hoid is talking to Dalinar about the Spiritual Realm. The passage is this on page 244:

To my knowledge, this is Kelsier when he gave up Preservation to Vin in Secret History. But here, Hoid says it was the "wrong" choice. Does this mean Vin killed Ati was the "wrong" outcome? Should Kelsier have united Ruin and Preservation? Should they have stayed apart? Or is it just Hoid saying it wasn't the best for Kelsier. I see two possibilities, either it's nothing and Kelsier himself would be better off as a Shard, or... Harmony was not supposed to happen. What if Sazed isn't the Hero of Ages? What if Autonomy somehow corrupted the prophecies like Ruin did in the original series? I think this is critical to focus on...

 

What he was talking about was when Vin took up the well of ascension, then let the power go. Releasing ruin was the wrong choice. 

[Qianweilian He/him]

Just now, Argenti said:

What he was talking about was when Vin took up the well of ascension, then let the power go. Releasing ruin was the wrong choice. 

But, Kelsier also gave up the shard. If you are right, is he saying Kelsier didn't give up Preservation?

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, Qianweilian said:

But, Kelsier also gave up the shard. If you are right, is he saying Kelsier didn't give up Preservation?

Kelsier isn't mortal. He's a shadow.

[Qianweilian He/him]

You may be right

[NattyBo]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

What he was talking about was when Vin took up the well of ascension, then let the power go. Releasing ruin was the wrong choice. 

This was my interpretation also.

[RedBlue]

Wit appears to be referencing Vin giving up Preservation’s power at the Well.

Which is very interesting, considering that Kelsier did give up Preservation in a way that is very relevant to the conversation Wit and Dalinar are having. The fact that Kelsier was a Cognitive Shadow, not fully mortal, at the time seems like a semantic nitpick.

Either Wit doesn’t think Kelsier counts — in which case I would like to know why not — or Wit doesn’t know that Kelsier gave up Preservation.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Or in his oppinion Kelsier could not have held onto Preservation anyway, so his decision affected only the timing.

[Jbbi]

Kelsier didn’t truly hold Preservation. Needed the Ire shenanigans to make the connection. 
 

I think of Kelsier more like a Regent rather than a monarch in that respect. 

[David Cuccia]

Neat discussion here - I read the Mistborn series long ago, but it would be interesting to revisit in the context of The Stormlight Archive. Silly me...thought Hoid was referring to Jesus. :)

[AlmightyGir]

Just a point of order, and I might be incorrect here...

But while Vin takes up the Power at the end of Well of Ascension, she does so in the same way Rashek does. This makes her a sliver at the time, rather than a shardbearer. Leras is still the shardbearer at the time, his death and Vin's true ascension don't occur until later on.

While it is certainly noble of her to give up the power she held, it's distinctly different from giving up the full power of a shard.

That said, I also think Wit is referring to Vin.

[PanicPug]

Iirc Kelsier wasn't aligned enough with the Intent of Preservation to be able to hold it and only could do with the Connection(?) orb by the Ire.

[Letryx13]

7 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

Just a point of order, and I might be incorrect here...

But while Vin takes up the Power at the end of Well of Ascension, she does so in the same way Rashek does. This makes her a sliver at the time, rather than a shardbearer. Leras is still the shardbearer at the time, his death and Vin's true ascension don't occur until later on.

While it is certainly noble of her to give up the power she held, it's distinctly different from giving up the full power of a shard.

That said, I also think Wit is referring to Vin.

Wit specifically says it wasn't a full ascension, which strongly points to Vin. We don't know for certain that he even knows about Kelsier holding the power of Preservation in-between Leras and Vin. But assuming he does know, since the power hadn't truly chosen Kelsier, it probably was easier for Kelsier to let go of it. That being said, it was still one of the more noble things Kelsier ever did.

On 12/11/2024 at 1:07 AM, Oltux72 said:

Or in his oppinion Kelsier could not have held onto Preservation anyway, so his decision affected only the timing.

I've wondered that too. Could that orb have allowed Kelsier to hold the power indefinitely? I'd wager not. At least, not unless the person were already aligned with the power, which Kelsier wasn't.

On 12/10/2024 at 10:28 AM, Argenti said:

What he was talking about was when Vin took up the well of ascension, then let the power go. Releasing ruin was the wrong choice. 

Agreed. 

[Argenti he/him]

8 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

Just a point of order, and I might be incorrect here...

But while Vin takes up the Power at the end of Well of Ascension, she does so in the same way Rashek does. This makes her a sliver at the time, rather than a shardbearer. Leras is still the shardbearer at the time, his death and Vin's true ascension don't occur until later on.

While it is certainly noble of her to give up the power she held, it's distinctly different from giving up the full power of a shard.

That said, I also think Wit is referring to Vin.

Ascension doesn't just reffer to becoming a vessel. Odium claimed Dalinar Ascended right after the battle of Thaylen Field; Dalinar certainly wasn't a Shard yet, so it Ascension has to have a wider definition than that.

There's also, of course, the fact it's called "The Well of Ascension," which lends credence to the idea that anyone who holds it Asends. 

[AlmightyGir]

6 hours ago, Argenti said:

Ascension doesn't just reffer to becoming a vessel. Odium claimed Dalinar Ascended right after the battle of Thaylen Field; Dalinar certainly wasn't a Shard yet, so it Ascension has to have a wider definition than that.

There's also, of course, the fact it's called "The Well of Ascension," which lends credence to the idea that anyone who holds it Asends. 

Undoubtedly correct, however I think there should be a distinction between one who has Ascended by taking a portion of the power (in the case of the well, the naturally accumulating physical portion of the power at a perpendicularity), and being an actual shardbearer.

I imagine that giving up the shard in its totality is something entirely different from Ascension via the pool.

This is further complicated by the fact that, if I remember correctly, Leras was already dying at this point, and his power/essence unravelling.

8 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I've wondered that too. Could that orb have allowed Kelsier to hold the power indefinitely? I'd wager not. At least, not unless the person were already aligned with the power, which Kelsier wasn't.

Can a cognitive shadow even hold a shard fully?

[Letryx13]

48 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

Can a cognitive shadow even hold a shard fully?

I've wondered about that too. At this point, Kelsier is almost identical to a spren, which means he's nearly pure investiture. I kept wondering how Ba-Ado-Mishram could take up the shard when she's effectively the same.

[RedBlue]

This is Kelsier’s Ascension, from Secret History part 6 chapter 4:

Quote

Kelsier bowed his head as he felt Preservation fade, finally, and stretch into the darkness.

Then, full of borrowed light, Kelsier seized the threads spinning around him and Pulled. The power resisted. He didn’t know why—he had only a rudimentary understanding of what he was doing. Why did the power attune to some people and not others?

Well, he’d Pulled on stubborn anchors before. He yanked with all his might, drawing the power toward him. It struggled, defying him almost like it was alive . . . until . . .

It broke, flooding into him.

And Kelsier, the Survivor of Death, Ascended.

With a cry of exultation, he felt the power flow through him, like Allomancy a hundred times over. A feverish, molten, burning energy that washed through his soul. He laughed, rising into the air, expanding, becoming everywhere and everything.

I think that’s unambiguously a full Ascension, regardless of the Connection tricks he pulled to make it happen.

Kelsier then tries to use the power to attack Ruin, but is ineffective. Ruin chalks that up to Kelsier being a Cognitive Shadow. We get this description:

Quote

Ruin turned his attention from Kelsier, and so Kelsier took to trying to acquaint himself with the power. Unfortunately, each thing he tried was met with resistance—both from Ruin’s energy and from the power of Preservation itself. He could see himself now, in the Spiritual Realm— and those black lines were still there, tying him to Ruin.

The power he held didn’t like that at all. It tumbled inside him, churning, trying to break free. He could hold on, but he knew that if he let go, it would escape him and he would never be able to recapture it.

In other words: Kelsier is holding the Shard, and believes he can keep holding it, despite the Connection issues. He’s not an effective Vessel, but he is a Vessel.

Hijinks ensue for a few weeks, until part 6 chapter 7, where Kelsier gives up the Shard:

Quote

Kelsier took a deep breath. He felt Preservation’s energy being ripped from him. He felt Ruin’s fury pummeling him, flaying him, ravenous to destroy him. For one last moment he felt the world. The farthest ashfall, the people in the distant south, the curling winds, and the life straining—struggling—to continue on this planet.

Then Kelsier did the most difficult thing he’d ever done.

“Giving you power!” he roared to Vin, letting go of Preservation’s essence so she could take it up.

Vin drew in the mists.

That’s Kelsier making the very deliberate (and difficult) choice to let go of Preservation. It’s not that the power rejected him, and it’s not that he wasn’t fully holding it. He chose to give up the power.

Having gone over that, I feel pretty confident in saying that Kelsier does count, and should have merited a mention in Wit’s discussion with Dalinar.

I think it’s likely that Hoid doesn’t know that Preservation had changed hands, and believes that Leras managed to cling on up to that point. As demonstrated by Taravangian, it’s not necessarily clear to an observer when a Vessel swap happens, and Hoid doesn’t know everything.

Given the animosity between Hoid and Kelsier, this does make me wonder if Hoid’s opinion of Kelsier would change if he had this info.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

27 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Given the animosity between Hoid and Kelsier, this does make me wonder if Hoid’s opinion of Kelsier would change if he had this info.

Or alternatively, Hoid is so mean that he intentionally strikes Kelsier from the historical record.

[Rorzikel]

7 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I've wondered about that too. At this point, Kelsier is almost identical to a spren, which means he's nearly pure investiture. I kept wondering how Ba-Ado-Mishram could take up the shard when she's effectively the same.

Sja-Anat’s interlude in RoW stated that most of the unmade were like her, with their forms split between the physical and cognitive realms. Maybe that’s like having a pseudo-physical aspect for shard taking purposes.

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 1/13/2025 at 7:10 AM, Oltux72 said:

Or alternatively, Hoid is so mean that he intentionally strikes Kelsier from the historical record.

How often have we seen Hoid straight up lie?

[AlmightyGir]

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

How often have we seen Hoid straight up lie?

Can Hoid actively lie? Ommiting the truth is one thing. But lies are harmful, and Hoid has been so affected by the Dawnshard he holds that he cannot actively cause harm. Currently stated in print at least as being physical harm, but he can't even consume meat anymore, which means it's not just limited to things that are strictly speaking alive, and capable of being harmed. The animal is already dead, he's incapable of harming it further.

Do lies count as harm in this way? Would the Dawnshard stop him being able to actively lie?

[Argenti he/him]

25 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

Can Hoid actively lie? Ommiting the truth is one thing. But lies are harmful, and Hoid has been so affected by the Dawnshard he holds that he cannot actively cause harm. Currently stated in print at least as being physical harm, but he can't even consume meat anymore, which means it's not just limited to things that are strictly speaking alive, and capable of being harmed. The animal is already dead, he's incapable of harming it further.

Do lies count as harm in this way? Would the Dawnshard stop him being able to actively lie?

I really really  doubt it stops him from lying. He betrayed Shai, and I really doubt he said "I'll take the moonscepter when we're done!"

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/15/2025 at 5:25 PM, Qianweilian said:

How often have we seen Hoid straight up lie?

Whenever he introduces himself - arguably. He'd probably tell you that it is a matter of perspective.

He'd tell you that Kelsier wasn't mortal at that time. However, would that be his reason as opposed to be his justification?

[RedBlue]

20 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He'd tell you that Kelsier wasn't mortal at that time. However, would that be his reason as opposed to be his justification?

Given the context of Wit’s discussion with Dalinar, the status of Kelsier’s mortality seems like a pointless semantic nitpick. Regardless of Kelsier’s being a Cognitive Shadow at the time, his choice to give up Preservation is extremely pertinent to Dalinar’s situation as he is pondering his options.

I know Wit can be petty, and he often omits information, but this is Serious Mode Wit. His best interest is served by Dalinar having good, relevant information so that he can be effective. There is no good reason for him to deliberately exclude one of only two examples of giving up a Shard.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I know Wit can be petty, and he often omits information, but this is Serious Mode Wit. His best interest is served by Dalinar having good, relevant information so that he can be effective. There is no good reason for him to deliberately exclude one of only two examples of giving up a Shard.

I am afraid there is an extreme good reason for him to exclude that example. In fact, possibly two or three of them. The obvious one is that to him the worst outcome to Odium being freed from Roshar would be the vessel of Odium being freed bearing an additional Shard of vessel having voluntarily relinquished it.

Or alternatively he may doubt that a full human being could do what Kelsier did. In fact, technically we have no precedent.