Kelsier's Decension? Is Harmony "wrong"?

[RedBlue]

58 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid there is an extreme good reason for him to exclude that example. In fact, possibly two or three of them. The obvious one is that to him the worst outcome to Odium being freed from Roshar would be the vessel of Odium being freed bearing an additional Shard of vessel having voluntarily relinquished it.

 

If Wit wanted Dalinar to believe that the power could not be relinquished by a Vessel, he would have excluded the Vin example as well. He could have just told Dalinar ‘nope, the Vessel can’t give up the power, it’s never been done’ and Dalinar wouldn’t have known any better.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Or alternatively he may doubt that a full human being could do what Kelsier did. In fact, technically we have no precedent.

We know now (from Dalinar) that a fully alive human can give up a Shard after a full Ascension. We have no reason to think that Wit believed this to be impossible, even before Dalinar confirmed it.

[alder24]

I think Hoid simply doesn't know Kelsier holds Preservation for this short period of time. How long Kelsier was a Shard? A few days or weeks at most? He missed Taravangian's Ascension so he probably missed Kelsier's Ascension because he didn't pay much attention to Preservation who was impotent at this time. There was no change in Preservation's behaviour he could have noticed, there was not much that Preservation could have done anyways so it would have been very easy for him to miss. And while Sazed did mention it in the Words of Founding, I highly doubt Hoid read all 80+ massive tomes filled with religious, philosophical and other knowledge Sazed had in his Copperminds - Hoid seems to be much more interested in romance novels than something like that. 

And while the release of Ruin was inevitable, Vin's decision was wrong - it led to the death of more than 99% of the Scadrian population. It's hard to call it a good decision, even though it had to be done one day and it was the only way of dealing with Ruin for good.

[Qianweilian He/him]

I wonder what Hoid would think of Kelsier if he knew that, considering that he was the only one besides Hoid who gave up/turned down a shard that didn't immediately die.

[LeondeBowa]

Sorry but isn't Hold just making a veiled reference to himself again? He was in position as one of the original 16 but at the last minute refused. Part of him regrets the choice imo

[RedBlue]

5 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said:

Sorry but isn't Hold just making a veiled reference to himself again? He was in position as one of the original 16 but at the last minute refused. Part of him regrets the choice imo

Hoid had the opportunity to take up a Shard, but ultimately didn’t. He isn’t an example of giving the power up because he never Ascended.

I think people earlier in the thread have explained why he’s talking about Vin.

[Leuthie]

Kelsier held and gave up Preservation. Vin held Preservation and was mutually destroyed by Ruin. Sazed then picked up both Shards. Vin didn't willingly give up Preservation.

Kelsier did.

And both were full Ascensions.

I think Hoid was talking about himself.

Edited January 19, 2025 by Leuthie

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 12/10/2024 at 10:26 AM, Qianweilian said:

It wasn’t a full Ascension

That makes it sound like there was an Ascension. I think it's probable that the only people who know Kelsier ascended are himself, Sazed, and maybe Spook

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Kelsier held and gave up Preservation. Vin held Preservation and was mutually destroyed by Ruin. Sazed then picked up both Shards. Vin didn't willingly give up Preservation.

Kelsier did.

And both were full Ascensions.

I think Hoid was talking about himself.

Hoid has never held a Shard. Hoid said it wasn't a full Ascension and that could only be Vin Ascending to the power of the Well, giving it up instead of using it to maintain Ruin's prison. 

[Rashekin he/him]

Well, in the Words of Founding, Sazed does say that Kelsier was Preservation's Vessel. Marasi tells MeLaan in SoS so it's common knowledge so Hoid should know.

But perhaps this may clarify the doubts: in Spanish, when Hoid mentions "a mortal", he uses feminine pronoun and prefix (Spanish stuff haha) so I immediately assumed he was referring to Vin. It could be a simple decision of the translator but I doubt it, it's the type of thing that was probably consulted with someone at Dragonsteel.

English:

Quote

Wit grew distant, a faint smile on his lips. “Once. It wasn’t a full Ascension, but a mortal did give up the power once. It proved to be the wrong choice, but it was the most selfless thing I believe I’ve ever witnessed. So yes, Dalinar, it is possible. But not easy.”

Spanish:

Quote

La mirada de Sagaz se perdió en la lejanía, mientras una tenue sonrisa asomaba a sus labios.

—Una vez. No era una Ascensión plena, pero una mortal sí que renunció al poder una vez. Resultó ser la opción errónea, pero creo que nunca he presenciado un acto más altruista que ese. De modo que sí, Dalinar, es posible. Pero no fácil.

 

Edited January 20, 2025 by Rashekin
Quote

[Qianweilian He/him]

Still though, Kelsier giving up the shard ia very relevant to the discussion they're having. 

[LeondeBowa]

More I hear about this, the more I think this is a RAFO. The fact there are many shards we haven't seen much of and the fact the idea of a shard giving up the power is an interesting plot hook, makes me think it's something we haven't seen yet.

Btw, which shard was it that shattered themselves? And what was their gender?

[Nitpicking]

3 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said:

Btw, which shard was it that shattered themselves? And what was their gender?

In Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, Hoid refers to Komashi as "the place where Virtuosity Splintered herself."

[LeondeBowa]

1 minute ago, Nitpicking said:

In Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, Hoid refers to Komashi as "the place where Virtuosity Splintered herself."

Sounds like a shard giving up their power, and the conciquences were quite not good imo

[Qianweilian He/him]

Isn't Yumi and the Nightmare Painter chronologically much later then WaT?

[LeondeBowa]

15 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Isn't Yumi and the Nightmare Painter chronologically much later then WaT?

Maybe but the shattering of vertuosity happened long before the creation of the thing that caused the story in yumi which happened long before the time the story took place.

 

Soz if that doesn't make sense trying to speak around spoilers

Basically I mean that the shattering of vertuosity could have happened before WaT

[Nitpicking]

10 hours ago, LeondeBowa said:

Soz if that doesn't make sense trying to speak around spoilers

This is the Cosmere Spoilers area.

Yes, Yumi happens much later than WaT.