Rosharan Hemalurgy?

[lirlond]

Crystal spikes used to give investiture sight? Comes at great cost?

Could this be an analogue to Hemalurgy? Would different gems work in the same way as different metals??

[StanLemon]

It's almost certainly Hemalurgy adjacent, bet the crystals even use bind points.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

And Moash has graciously volunteered into becoming the first 'Crystal Inquisitor', with spikes literally poking out the back of his head.

I wonder, since we know from Tress and TLM that the myth of Marsh being Death has been spreading off-world, I wonder how that will work with Moash? Will he suddenly also become known as Death on Roshar? I dunno, that whole thing is just weird.

Still, I wonder what else can be done with these Gem Spikes, could certain effects be given if a Spren was placed into one?

Like if a Flamespren was stuck in a Gem Spike, then placed into someone in the right way, would they gain some type of heat related ability? Maybe even become a living Fabrial?

[Argenti he/him]

Yeah I agree that's it's Hemalurgy adjacent, the only question is how close. I expect it's not 1:1, and uses the polestones instead of the 16 metals, but the question is how much they can replicate, and how much overlap they have. Investiture sights is close to iron sight, but they're not quite the same. It's more like life sense. Does the polestones change the effect? The spren? I assume it's much the same as the polestones in fabrials. What are the chances the spikes are heliodors?

[+robardin he/him]

45 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

It's almost certainly Hemalurgy adjacent, bet the crystals even use bind points.

Yeah, and just like seeing Shardblades inspired some of the visiting Five Scholars from Nalthis to go home and create Nightblood, I'm guessing Battah/Dova ran into Marsh or read/saw something about him somehow.

Hemalurgy per se is called one of the Metallic Arts, in that its effects as known to Scadrians differ based on the metal used as well as the bind points, and that creating a spike requires Intent while "tearing off" Investiture from the donor... but of course, it could be that the expression of hemalurgy through metal is just how Investiture is filtered on Scadrial due to some interplay of Preservation, explaining why Allomancy (purely of Preservation) is all about net-positive Investiture through metal, and the "balanced" Art of Feruchemy all about GIGO in metal.

Vyre's crystal spiked eyes were glowing with Voidlight, so perhaps they're acting as a repository for some "donor voidspren" in there that then grants him the ability to see Investiture the way an Inquisitor sees the "lines of blue" of metal?

 

[Inevitability]

Maybe this is the elusive Voidbinding?

[+robardin he/him]

6 minutes ago, Inevitability said:

Maybe this is the elusive Voidbinding?

I doubt Odium would need Dova/Battah's experiments to discover what could be done with this, though

It's got to be some variant of hemalurgy, which is another Shard's power/magic

[josmarrob]

Is it ridiculous to think that maybe Hemalurgy is merely the process of ripping off a piece of spirit web with a spike, and that there is a grafting mechanic intrinsic to the cosmere which is what we are seeing used to add something to people with Hemalurgy spikes, soulstamps, and the new gemstone spikes?

I don't think what we are seeing with Moash is Hemalurgy because there is no indication that someone else's spiritweb is being used in these gemstone spikes. I think there must be something intrinsic to the cosmere where investiture can be grafted to bind points on a person to do specific things. If I am right, that would make it look like any investiture grafted to the eye sockets would give some sort of sight.

It is very interesting to see where this could go by capturing spren in the gemstones and grafting those to a person. Perhaps could a human with a gemstone in the chest get a form of power if the stone has the right spren?

[+robardin he/him]

16 minutes ago, josmarrob said:

Is it ridiculous to think that maybe Hemalurgy is merely the process of ripping off a piece of spirit web with a spike, and that there is a grafting mechanic intrinsic to the cosmere which is what we are seeing used to add something to people with Hemalurgy spikes, soulstamps, and the new gemstone spikes?

I don't think what we are seeing with Moash is Hemalurgy because there is no indication that someone else's spiritweb is being used in these gemstone spikes. I think there must be something intrinsic to the cosmere where investiture can be grafted to bind points on a person to do specific things. If I am right, that would make it look like any investiture grafted to the eye sockets would give some sort of sight.

It is very interesting to see where this could go by capturing spren in the gemstones and grafting those to a person. Perhaps could a human with a gemstone in the chest get a form of power if the stone has the right spren?

That’s where I suggested the difference was in the “donor”.

The traditional metal spikes for hemalurgy required two things: Intent when spiking someone, to make a hemalurgic spike, and the right metal to “rip out” the right Investiture from the victim/donor. Not necessarily a “magic power” like Allomancy or Feruchemy, but also just properties of being human or being conscious (ordinary humans were used to make koloss or kandra spikes).

Ruin called that “his power”.

I agree that what we see with the crystalline spikes that glow in Vyre’s eyes seem like “same principle, different implementation”, but to me that’s just hemalurgy with a different flavor. The “Principle of Hemalurgy” (anyone can make a spike of right material with Intent while it pulls in Donor Investiture, then stick it into the right place into Recipient to Do Something Magical) could be considered Ruin’s power, where what we saw in Mistborn was simply based on needing metal spikes to draw out the powers of the Metallic Arts, and sufficient to do things like create koloss and kandra.

Crystal spikes where the “Donor Investiture” came from something like Voidspren is what I’m thinking went on with Vyre.

Also, Vyre has more than just two spikes driven all the way through to the back of his head. The crystals also jut out to the side a bit, giving it a look of a “crown of crystals”, albeit one that’s embedded in his skull at eye level instead of resting on his brow. Reminiscent of what happened with Amaram after he took in Yelig-Nar. So definitely a kind of fusion of magics going on.

[DiePie]

13 hours ago, robardin said:

Vyre's crystal spiked eyes were glowing with Voidlight, so perhaps they're acting as a repository for some "donor voidspren" in there that then grants him the ability to see Investiture the way an Inquisitor sees the "lines of blue" of metal?

The metal used in Hemalurgy might just be a storage unit for the investiture that actually grants whatever effects. In that case, crystals become a plausible substitute, as they can hold investiture better than metals can; though I assume conduct it much worse, and that it probably took a few (extra) dead bodies before they figured out how to make the crystals work.

[logicless.bt]

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

The metal used in Hemalurgy might just be a storage unit for the investiture that actually grants whatever effects. In that case, crystals become a plausible substitute, as they can hold investiture better than metals can; though I assume conduct it much worse, and that it probably took a few (extra) dead bodies before they figured out how to make the crystals work.

I actually think the metal would be more about the key, the way it is for Allomancy. In that case the the pole stone used might have an impact. Steel spike = see metal, like burning steel. Heliodor spike = see connection?

Although, there might be six other polestones we don't know about. Since duralumin is the connection metal, maybe there's a nicrosil (investiture) equivalent.

[alder24]

This is Hemalurgy, because Hemalurgy is not tied to Scadrial, it's a Cosmere-wide phenomena just like Lightweaving, Midnight Essence, or even Awakening are, which can manifest differently on different places depending on planets and Shards present there. Awakening can be performed without Breaths, it's still Awakening, Hemalurgy can be performed without metal, it's still Hemalurgy. 

Spoiler

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts.

Brandon Sanderson

There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do

So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well.

Questioner

And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Exactly. You are correct.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

[...]

Argent

There's smoke involved, there's eating of souls, there's a whole bunch of things. So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer.

[...]

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)