Impressed By Cultivation

[teknopathetic he/him]

While at first i was shocked to see Cultivation fail so hard, I then started to think of Cultivation's moves like a game of Towers. While it looks like she face planted, she actually seems to have gotten everything she could ever want out of her gambits. She owned the board and then recalled her cards without losing anything major to her: 

Freedom From Her Oaths and Obligations:
1. Cultivation is free to leave the world and go somewhere new and cultivate new things (she was trapped by love and then oaths)
2. Her spren can now leave, meaning Odium cant hurt them all and that the spren can cultivate new identities

Duties to Morality: 
3. She is not morally stuck. She can leave without letting the world/cosmere be destroyed
4. The heralds are being restored and have reforged the oathpact.
5. Have the planet slowed down so others can prepare defenses
6. Cultivation spren, the sibling, and the Nightwatcher appear to be the most safe of the spren
7. The deadeyes are being healed and are cultivating a new type of bond

8. Ba Ado Mishram is free. Cultivation broke up with Tanavast for this betrayal. That wrong is now righted  

Weakening Taravangian:
8. Get Taravangian to make a secret but vulnerable pocket universe he must protect at all costs (force a weak spot)
9. Maintain a chess piece on the board with Lift (her 3rd touched person)
10.  Let the power of Honour continue to question and grow (maintain its secret sentience) 

11. Ba Ado Mishram is free and hidden. Ba Ado Mishram can oppose Odium. 

12. Taravangian does not have control of his Pool. The Listeners know where it is and can use it. 
13.  Appear to have no power anymore on the planet, but still have subtle plays

Love:
13. Free the last remnants of Tanavast.
14. Redeem her ex lover's image.
15. Keeping the sibling alive (her child)

Growth:
16. A new type of deadeye bond exists
17. Sja-Anat is cultivating new types of true spren

18. Ba Ado Mishram is free and may work with Sja Anat and Venli to design a new world. 
14. New technologies must be invented with this new world.
15. New relationships are being forged with peoples and greatshells

If we focus on Honour’s goals, then it looked like Cultivation failed. However, Kor was not her ex-husband. Over and over again in the visions we learn that Cultivation never wanted to move to Roshar and that her power did not like the stagnation of oaths. Cultivation always wanted to leave, and after she broke up with Tanavast for betraying Mishram, I think Cultivation started designing her exit strategy. I hope she and her daughter the Nightwatcher find somewhere good to inhabit. 

Edited December 10, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Ewery1]

This is what I’m saying! Thank you for spelling it out so clearly, you’re completely right.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Sort of. It still looks to me like she had to execute plan B or C. But she did plan for the eventuality and got an acceptable outcome.

I guess she could have gotten a better outcome without Hoid interfering. She is not going to be pleased with him.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

I'm interested to see what her plan for Lift is/was. I thought it was pretty clear that she was expecting a full new set of three with how she had arranged Dalinar, Taravangian and Lift, but perhaps not?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

I'm interested to see what her plan for Lift is/was. I thought it was pretty clear that she was expecting a full new set of three with how she had arranged Dalinar, Taravangian and Lift, but perhaps not?

Why would she give up her power?

I'd say Lift is a backup for the very worst case. She is a source of Lifelight in case Cultivation were forced to flee Roshar.

[teknopathetic he/him]

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why would she give up her power?

I'd say Lift is a backup for the very worst case. She is a source of Lifelight in case Cultivation were forced to flee Roshar.

It’s really unclear to me if Lift was special, or if cultivation had many agents like her. 
 

We see people with weird veins attack Karbradth, so were those Lifelight users? 
 

Are there more agents with weird veins? Did they all get used in the Karbrandth attack, or are there still more all around the story? 
 

Heck. We also know that it’s hard for a shard to leave a planet they have invested in. Maybe killing all her agents made it easier for her to leave? 

Edited December 11, 2024 by teknopathetic

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

21 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sort of. It still looks to me like she had to execute plan B or C. But she did plan for the eventuality and got an acceptable outcome.

I guess she could have gotten a better outcome without Hoid interfering. She is not going to be pleased with him.

I agree this is plan B, C maybe D?  She had hoped to convince T-Odium to see he did not have to rule it all. I think she underestimated his desire to be the one to Rule it all, like many but Dalinar who was able to see that he pretended, and unlike Dalinar had not changed. 
So when T-Odium let her know he did not agree with her,  and then Dalinar threw her for a loop too, so she had to flee. 

But I do think she had planned it as a possible outcome,.


 

34 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It’s really unclear to me if Lift was special, or if cultivation had many agents like her. 
 

We see people with weird veins attack Karbradth, so were those Lifelight users? 
 

Are there more agents with weird veins? Did they all get used in the Karbrandth attack, or are there still more all around the story? 
 

Heck. We also know that it’s hard for a shard to leave a planet they have invested in. Maybe killing all her agents made it easier for her to leave? 

Lift is long term plan, she will still have her surges no matter what happens to stormlight. 
The people with weird veins that attacked Karbradth are Women from Babatharnam 

 

Quote

Notable race: the Babath (People of Babatharnam)
1) Common features: [women] patterns of veins beneath the skin [WoK Ch. 46] (result of Aimian hybrids

 

 

 

[alder24]

I'm not convinced it all went according to Cultivation's plan, even if you listed it like this and it sounds reasonable. I got the impression that Retribution was not her plan, however she foresaw it and was prepared just in case, but she still feared it coming - and that's why she ran away.

She spent way too much time trying to teach and convince Taravangian to do the right thing, which failed. Then she even tried to threaten Taravangian's family to get him to withdraw, which failed spectacularly (this pocket universe didn't really change anything, Taravangian already had a weak point before Cultivation intervened). But she was prepared for this, she foresaw this might happen and Dalinar was her backup plan. He was meant to Ascend to Honor and deal with Taravangian, but I think he didn't do what she wanted him to do. She didn't want him to break all oaths and give Honor to Taravangian. She might have predicted it, but it was rather the worst case scenario and Lift is probably her backup backup plan. Taravangian said that Cultivation ejected herself from Roshar while being terrified and I think that's true. She feared this outcome, even if she was preparing Lift for it.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I think the pocket universe does change things. 

In the real world, over 1000s of years Taravangian’s connections to his friends and family would weaken as people passed away and the world revolutionized. He’d likely care less with his friends and his family long dead and gone. His humanity would fade. 

Cultivation’s gambit did end up working, but just delayed the effect. Now, he is stuck connected to the same people forever. People that he loves and that he would protect. I think this leaves an opening. 

Im open to the idea that Cultivation didn’t see it coming or had it as a plan B, but it really does seem like this gives her everything she wanted. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[MagicMaggot]

Cultivation was heavily invested in Roshar, though, and cutting all ties and rushing off does seem like it could have a high cost for her. Preservation made it sound like a pretty extreme measure in Secret History: “We… grow attached easily, and it takes one who is particularly dedicated to leave.”. I guess we'll have to wait and see on that, but that's why I don't think we have all the information required to judge her damages here. It also makes a big difference if this is actually part of a long-term strategy, with her intending to return someday, or if this was an emergency exit just to survive. If she abandoned her ressources and creatures here without a plan that might even clash with her power's Intent. 

And I get that the reactions to Taravangian were all from his perspective, and she could have been fooling him (and us) all along, but taken on face value it did seem like everything she was working for fell down around her. Taravangian was ostensibly meant to be an improvement to Rayse, and he wasn't. Dalinar was ostensibly groomed to take up Honor, and he threw that away. And even if her grasp of the future is better than most shards', she isn't there to guide it in the foreseeable future. The time-dilation is certainly a boon, but if she hasn't prepared anything off-world, she won't really be in a position to make much use of it. 

It would really help, if we had more of an understanding of her personal goals. I'd say considering she didn't want conflict with Odium and didn't even necessarily want to stop the wars on Roshar, it's quite plausible that she genuinely wanted the bearer of Odium to just stop with his plans of conquest, like she told Taravangian. So if that was part of it, she failed. Freedom from Roshar might be a positive, but creating Retribution was hardly the easiest way to get it, considering that Dalinar had the power to free her and wasn't above being manipulated. And "not losing her spren" is certainly better than the alternative, but far from a win. Any plausible result except Retribution's emergence would have left her spren unharmed. Much of the harm she narrowly averted was only a possibility because of her meddling. 

So with what I can see in the short-term, she seems like a clear loser to me. There will hopefully be long-term plans that play out better, we'll likely get a better understanding what she actually wants to accomplish, and she still has some powerful cards on the board, but right now we can only speculate on that. 

Edited December 14, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

Cultivation was heavily invested in Roshar, though, and cutting all ties and rushing off does seem like it could have a high cost for her. Preservation made it sound like a pretty extreme measure in Secret History: “We… grow attached easily, and it takes one who is particularly dedicated to leave.”. I guess we'll have to wait and see on that, but that's why I don't think we have all the information required to judge her damages here. It also makes a big difference if this is actually part of a long-term strategy, with her intending to return someday, or if this was an emergency exit just to survive. If she abandoned her ressources and creatures here without a plan that might even clash with her power's Intent. 

And I get that the reactions to Taravangian were all from his perspective, and she could have been fooling him (and us) all along, but taken on face value it did seem like everything she was working for fell down around her. Taravangian was ostensibly meant to be an improvement to Rayse, and he wasn't. Dalinar was ostensibly groomed to take up Honor, and he threw that away. And even if her grasp of the future is better than most shards', she isn't there to guide it in the foreseeable future. The time-dilation is certainly a boon, but if she hasn't prepared anything off-world, she won't really be in a position to make much use of it. 

It would really help, if we had more of an understanding of her personal goals. I'd say considering she didn't want conflict with Odium and didn't even necessarily want to stop the wars on Roshar, it's quite plausible that she genuinely wanted the bearer of Odium to just stop with his plans of conquest, like she told Taravangian. So if that was part of it, she failed. Freedom from Roshar might be a positive, but creating Retribution was hardly the easiest way to get it, considering that Dalinar had that power and wasn't above being manipulated. And "not losing her spren" is certainly better than the alternative, but far from a win. Any plausible result except Retribution's emergence would have left her spren unharmed. Much of the harm she narrowly averted was only a possibility because of her meddling. 

So with what I can see in the short-term, she seems like a clear loser to me. There will hopefully be long-term plans that play out better, we'll likely get a better understanding what she actually wants to accomplish, and she still has some powerful cards on the board, but right now we can only speculate on that. 

She fled Roshar, but do we know if she fled the system?  
She may have set up a hiding place or bolt hole on one of the other planets or moons in the same system. 

[MagicMaggot]

Her perpendicularity vanished with her, though. I wouldn't bet on her being around right now. 

 

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 12/10/2024 at 3:28 AM, Oltux72 said:

Sort of. It still looks to me like she had to execute plan B or C. But she did plan for the eventuality and got an acceptable outcome.

Yeah, this is my impression as well. I think, based in part on what she said in RoW, that her strategy is less focused around very specific long-term plans (like Preservation or Ruin), and more around trying to maximize her options and then improvising based on what ends up happening (sowing seeds and then seeing what grows from them, so to speak).

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wish we knew if Cultivation took The Nightwatcher with her or if Cultivation left The Nightwatcher on Roshar. 

I LOVE the idea of The Nightwatcher being abandoned and then seekinging out Sja Anat for Enlightenment. That would be such a cool way to explore this Bondsmith spren in a new an exciting way. Or even finding out that The Nightwatcher was pulled into The Tower and now people have to deal with her. Maybe she will make use of that little room The Sibling made for her. 

Edited December 17, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Nitpicking]

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I wish we knew if Cultivation took The Nightwacther with her or if Cultivation left The Nightwatcher on Roshar. 

I LOVE the idea of The Nightwatcher being abandoned and then seekinging out Sja Anat for Enlightenment. That would be such a cool way to explore this Bondsmith spren in a new an exciting way. Or even finding out that The Nightwatcher was pulled into The Tower and now people have to deal with her. Maybe she will make use of that little room The Sibling made for her. 

Where could the Nightwatcher even survive on Roshar? She seems to be a wild plant-based being, and none of the (non-agricultural) Rosharan plants are going to survive except in the Tower and Azimir. No sunlight anywhere else. That could be an interesting plot thing.

Does the Old Magic still exist, if the Nightwatcher survives? Would La Resistance seek it out to substitute for the lost Surgebinding?

Will Lift have more trouble making Lifelight, if Cultivation is out of the Roshar system? I don't think so (Awakening and Allomancy don't seem to weaken when used on Roshar), but who knows? Apparently Surges do weaken if the spren and its human are separated.

[BridgeBoi]

Wyndle is still with Lift so she should be fine. 

In fact, she will probably be one of the more powerful beings, with a independent source of Light.

[Aon Tia she/her]

I like this post. You have made some really good points. 

Also, i want to mention that she did achieve the goal of preserving Roshar. Rayse hated this planet/system and saw this as his prison. He had said to Dalinar also that he would destroy Roshar. While making his deal with Taravangian also, he was willing to only spare Kharbranth. So, in having Taravangian replace Rayse, she also ensured continued existence of Roshar. In fact, T'Odium would not want to destroy Roshar, he wants to rule it. 

She also ensured that T'Odium will not try to kill Cultivation atleast not immediately. 

Yes she tried to make his see that he can give up war but she must have known that that would not work and that is not something Taravangian can do, given the nature of his power. So, it might have been a ruse, to keep him busy. buy time. 

She also went to Dalinar and pointed him towards Honor, Did she really thought Dalinar will take up honor and save them? Because I think she knows the reason Honor can never really defeat Odium, that path would only lead to a temporary truce at max and continued war on Roshar. May be she foresaw the possibility of Retribution, may be not, it is hard to tell at this point. But her nudging Dalinar towards SR and learning about Honor's history caused Retribution to form. Was that what she had secretly intended? it is an intriguing possibility. 

You are right that she has wanted to be free of Roshar for a long time, she finally managed to be free. 

After Dalinar, she is probably the single person/entity who knows and understand Taravangian and the shard of Odium and the shard of Honor. 

I hope that she makes up for it, even if it indeed was a mistake and not part of her plan. 

 

[PrestigiousOwl]

On 12/12/2024 at 12:47 PM, alder24 said:

She spent way too much time trying to teach and convince Taravangian to do the right thing, which failed. Then she even tried to threaten Taravangian's family to get him to withdraw, which failed spectacularly (this pocket universe didn't really change anything, Taravangian already had a weak point before Cultivation intervened). But she was prepared for this, she foresaw this might happen and Dalinar was her backup plan. He was meant to Ascend to Honor and deal with Taravangian, but I think he didn't do what she wanted him to do. She didn't want him to break all oaths and give Honor to Taravangian. She might have predicted it, but it was rather the worst case scenario and Lift is probably her backup backup plan. Taravangian said that Cultivation ejected herself from Roshar while being terrified and I think that's true. She feared this outcome, even if she was preparing Lift for it.

I guess this is my issue: is she just a horrible manipulator? Conspicuously, literally every time she tries to convince T of something, he comes away from the conversation thinking the opposite or more entrenched in his beliefs.

Its possible she's just really bad at her job. But I guess it feels like its ALSO possible she was INTENTIONALLY pushing him down the path he went on

[Keitea]

16 hours ago, PrestigiousOwl said:

I guess this is my issue: is she just a horrible manipulator? Conspicuously, literally every time she tries to convince T of something, he comes away from the conversation thinking the opposite or more entrenched in his beliefs.

Its possible she's just really bad at her job. But I guess it feels like its ALSO possible she was INTENTIONALLY pushing him down the path he went on

I mean, it seems she was also unable to convince her lover to just sit still and stop messing with the world, so, she might really not be very good at making people do what she wants them to do. (Granted, the powers Intents made them inherently resistant to change, so Cultivation, by her own intent, would have been powerless with them).

[Isilel]

And let's not forget that it has been revealed that Taln was in all likelihood also one of Cultivation's "cards", one that was brought into play very early and is still in the game. Bringing the number of people directly touched by her up to the "strong" number of 4?

[Deathfuzz]

On 12/14/2024 at 8:43 AM, FollowYourMuse said:

She fled Roshar, but do we know if she fled the system?  
She may have set up a hiding place or bolt hole on one of the other planets or moons in the same system. 

If she did stay in-system, Ashyn would be my guess for where she set up. Cultivation would most likely want to stay in an inhabited planet to align with the shards intent and unlike Roshar and Braize, Ashyn seems to have been abandoned/ignored by Odium and Honor after humans and Odium traveled to Roshar. We also know from wobs and the state of the sanderson that we will be getting 1-2 books set there (Silince Divine + Unknown title) and the disease based magic would align more with cultivation than the other shards.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Deathfuzz said:

If she did stay in-system, Ashyn would be my guess for where she set up. Cultivation would most likely want to stay in an inhabited planet to align with the shards intent and unlike Roshar and Braize, Ashyn seems to have been abandoned/ignored by Odium and Honor after humans and Odium traveled to Roshar. We also know from wobs and the state of the sanderson that we will be getting 1-2 books set there (Silince Divine + Unknown title) and the disease based magic would align more with cultivation than the other shards.

I highly doubt it because from the realmatic point of view, Ashyn, Braize and Roshar are the same place. Moreover, she already was on Ashyn, she visited it once and most of the magic on Ashyn is Cultivation-based. When Odium arrived on Ashyn, it was very visible to Tanavast and Kor, Cultivation fleeing to Ashyn would be as good as staying on Roshar - she would be dead already. 

Spoiler

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the Heralds/Fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

[...]

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

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