Cultivation (full WaT spoilers)

[Ewery1]

I still have this deep suspicion that Cultivation is nefarious here & will be a villain in the back half. Very curious about the moment when Nale mentions that Taln tried to kill her. To me it seems she plays a nervous & unsure/incapable role but who could have better future sight? Tanavast claimed she didn’t like to use it… maybe that was true in the beginning but I don’t buy it. She claimed to be nervous to confront Rayse but had their contract ready to go. And the Nightwatcher has yet to take any action… she placed Lift here with the ability to create Lifelight on purpose. She knew about the coming of Retribution, even through Renarin & Rlain’s shroud. There was also the mention of the other Shards fearing not just Odium & Honor, but Cultivation as well. I am exceedingly suspicious of her.

Edited December 8, 2024 by Ewery1

[the_archduke]

Taravangian is certain he outplayed her.  An immortal dragon whose portfolio is specifically long term growth.  I would not be shocked if everything is going according to get plan. 

[+Child of Hodor]

She did say to Taravangian in RoW that she changed him into someone could “bear this Power with honor”.

Now he is holding both Odium and Honor. She may have gotten what she wanted or a thing she wanted anyways. 

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

She did say to Taravangian in RoW that she changed him into someone could “bear this Power with honor”.

Now he is holding both Odium and Honor. She may have gotten what she wanted or a thing she wanted anyways. 

The only thing that points it against it being part of her master plan is how she fled. 

We know Cultivation (the shard) is unhappy with how Korv is acting. It's possible that the *shard's* plan is different from hers, and while her plan failed, its did not.

[Ewery1]

On 12/8/2024 at 10:31 AM, Argenti said:

The only thing that points it against it being part of her master plan is how she fled. 

We know Cultivation (the shard) is unhappy with how Korv is acting. It's possible that the *shard's* plan is different from hers, and while her plan failed, its did not.

I really do think it’s an act and Roshar simply doesn’t need her presence right now, but possibly.

All throughout this book we got the theme of “when to leave/flee is not a bad thing” and especially in the game of Towers - two powers against one is a losing battle. Why fight the battle when your pieces are already in motion?

Edited December 10, 2024 by Ewery1

[Argenti he/him]

48 minutes ago, Ewery1 said:

I really do thing it’s an act and Roshar simply doesn’t need her presence right now, but possibly.

All throughout this book we got the theme of “when to leave/flee is not a bad thing” and especially in the game of Towers - two powers against one is a losing battle. Why fight the battle when your pieces are already in motion?

It really depends on how we see her next, if she left a large chunk of her power (beyond the spren) behind then it probably wasn't intended. If she didn't... then it looks intended, and she's just on step 20 of her 340000 step plan.

[TheOneKEA]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

It really depends on how we see her next, if she left a large chunk of her power (beyond the spren) behind then it probably wasn't intended. If she didn't... then it looks intended, and she's just on step 20 of her 340000 step plan.

Does Lift count as a large chunk of her power? If Lift is able to accept her perceived dysmorphia and allow herself to grow and change, she may discover that her ability to generate Lifelight also grows and changes, and might be sufficient to do something awesome.

[Subvisual Haze]

We're told that Cultivation is very smart and sneaky.  Thus every time Cultivation falls directly on her face and fails it is just further proof that she is playing 4D chess and this was all part of her plan.  Losing is winning, trust the plan.

[Argenti he/him]

45 minutes ago, TheOneKEA said:

Does Lift count as a large chunk of her power? If Lift is able to accept her perceived dysmorphia and allow herself to grow and change, she may discover that her ability to generate Lifelight also grows and changes, and might be sufficient to do something awesome.

Lift does not. I'm talking about investment in roshar; like as part of the planet's soul, not people.

[logicless.bt]

I definitely noticed that Tanavast said Cultivation's Intent wanted to get offworld, and that she was offworld by the end of the book. Similarly, she's only played two out of three cards -- and that third card is now immune to the world-shaking changes that just happened AND being trained by one of the oldest and most intelligent non-shard.

[Cocoa he/him]

I suspect that Cultivation was legitimately blindsided by Dalinar's Retribution gambit and hit the panic button, mostly because of what Hoid says at the end about it being an almost-impossible-to-see route among infinite possibilities. She might have been aware of it, but I don't think she was gambling on it the same way she was when trying to create Todium, in part because Todium was already a gamble on a minuscule possibility, and events playing out as they did would have required not only that plan succeeding but also that it would ultimately backfire with her failing to convince him to see things her way. Impossible plans within failures within impossible plans.

I don't know whose side she'll be on (other than her own) when she next shows up, but I expect that she'll be much more reactive and will be repurposing old plans and preparations to adapt to unforeseen circumstances, rather than having Retribution dancing in the palm of her hand.

[Nef]

I wonder if Taln being unbreakable on Braize is another 4D chess thing that Cultivation imparted on Taln when he tried "kill her".

[Isilel]

WaT mentioned that Cultivationspren don't contain any Honor, while Honorspren have a little bit of Cultivation in them. She was also training the Nightwatcher - whose name interestingly relates to the Night of Sorrows? Given that I find it difficult to believe that she didn't foresee the eventual possibility of it.

And, of course, there is Lift. Who not only doesn't need stormlight, but was also the reason for why Gav was in the Spiritual Realm.

I don't see the Intent of Cultivation being compatible with betting on a single outcome. And we know that her power wanted to leave Roshar for a long time. So, Koravellium the person may have preferred the peaceful outcome, which she knew to be temporary anyway, but her Shard could be quite happy with how things fell out.

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 12/8/2024 at 8:31 AM, Argenti said:

The only thing that points it against it being part of her master plan is how she fled. 

We know Cultivation (the shard) is unhappy with how Korv is acting. It's possible that the *shard's* plan is different from hers, and while her plan failed, its did not.

Cultivation didn’t even want to be there to begin with. She did it for love and then sort of got stuck holding the bad when things went wrong. This outcome means others can now try their hand at solving the problem. 

[TheOneKEA]

I am curious to know where Cultivation went. Could she have fled to another Shardworld to regroup, or has she completely withdrawn from the Physical and Cognitive Realms?

[teknopathetic he/him]

Cultivation absolutely nailed her goals 100% though, right? Like, amazingly. 

1. Get Taravangian to "hold Odium with honour" (literal thing she says to Taravangian)
2. Be free to leave the world and go somewhere new (she was trapped by love)
3. Convince the other shards that they actually have to help
4. Get Taravangian to make a secret but vulnerable pocket universe he must protect at all costs (force a weak spot)
5. Maintain a chess piece on the board with Lift (her 3rd touched person)
6. Keep the Heralds locking Taravangian power a bit (protecting the spren with their oathpact).
7. Keep the cultivation-based spren safe.
8. Redeem the image of her lover to the world.


That's everything she wanted....

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by teknopathetic

[coolsnow7]

On 12/8/2024 at 7:44 AM, the_archduke said:

Taravangian is certain he outplayed her.  An immortal dragon whose portfolio is specifically long term growth.  I would not be shocked if everything is going according to get plan. 

It is very explicitly not going according to her plan. Did we read the same book? The book made clear that these Shards are operated by bumbling, fallible humans who barely even understand what they’re doing half the time. 

12 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Keep the Heralds locking Taravangian

The Heralds are not locking Taravangian. They are protecting the Spren. Taravangian is, explicitly, free.

I really do not get how anyone read this book and convinced themselves that what Cultivation wanted was for a shard who hates her and all others and is more powerful than any of them to take over the planet with the strongest fighting forces and be free of all restrictions. Like, seriously I wonder if someone sent you all copies of fan fiction in the mail/to your devices wherein Cultivation is revealed to actually be Adonalsium wearing a hat. But in the book I read, Cultivation got the opposite of what she wanted and looks like a fool.

[teknopathetic he/him]

3 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

It is very explicitly not going according to her plan. Did we read the same book? The book made clear that these Shards are operated by bumbling, fallible humans who barely even understand what they’re doing half the time. 

The Heralds are not locking Taravangian. They are protecting the Spren. Taravangian is, explicitly, free.

 

Sorry, I was inporecise. I know they arent locking Taravangian, but they are kind of locking his ability to kill all the spren in a sense. I was using it more metaphorically. 

[coolsnow7]

16 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Be free to leave the world and go somewhere new (she was trapped by love)

She wasn’t trapped by anything. She withdrew because if she did not Retribution was going to immediately annihilate her. We even have WoB’s that she will have difficulty extricating herself and will lose something substantial in the process.

[teknopathetic he/him]

6 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

She wasn’t trapped by anything. She withdrew because if she did not Retribution was going to immediately annihilate her. We even have WoB’s that she will have difficulty extricating herself and will lose something substantial in the process.

I got the impression that she had long wanted to leave the system. She actually never wanted to be there in the first place but ended up agreeing out of love for Tanner. Deals and oaths and bonds were made resulting in Cultivation finding herself in a situation where it would be very hard to extricate herself from her situation. She could have left anytime, but doing so would have been difficult, costly, and risky. 

If we change her plan from "Stop Odium" to "Leave this system without destroying it", Cultivation finally gets what she had been asking for for 1000s of years - to leave and make something of her own. 

Then Dalinar renounces the oaths which is followed byCultivation ripping out of the system. Once could say she fled, but one could also imagine that she had been set free. Not only set free mechanically, but also morally. With the other shards forced to act, the entire burdon was no longer on herself to ward against Odium. 
 

Edited December 10, 2024 by teknopathetic

[DangerousPants]

I think Cultivation gets some of what she wants, but she is probably the most optionality planning shard in existence.  

Her ideal situation might be what happens, even though it's costly to her.  Or it could just as easily be that Dalinar holds the Honor Shard, wins the contest and/or Todium has to leave, and then she can leave.  She can't leave without suffering a penalty as per the WOB.  That implies she would also make herself vulnerable to Todium if she left while Honor was without a vessel.  

At this point Tanner has been dead for thousands of years.  He very much appeared to check out for a thousand plus years as he dissociated from Honor slowly (and then quickly).  One could imagine a lot of vessel mixed emotions from Honor breaking Tanner, to Tanner being not good enough for Honor and losing his way, Tanner going on a bender and picking fights with Odium (however justified), to the Cultivation shard changing her enough that the original relationship isn't the same (except, at least, for being willing to attack Odium if he made himself vulnerable).   She might literally hate the Honor shard for ruining her relationship.  

But if Dalinar holds Honor and kicks the can?  She has replaced Honor, her love is long dead, she can responsibly leave (or not) without being exposed to harm/death.   And she manages to get the Vessel she has directly changed/influenced to be for two shards, not just one? 

She orchestrated to have both of the inheritors of the Shards under her influence, picking them decades before those events happened.  The Cultivation Vessel may or may not be aligned (hard to argue that it would have been impossible for any Vessel to be prepare for a Shard, or for their personality/self to survive over time), but the capability to cultivate situations and grow them to something better than doing nothing?  Top notch.  

We don't get any Cultivation POV.  She could have been planning something like this the moment Tanner started slipping or even sooner.  That might be the reason her and Tanner settled in the system, knowing Odium would later arrive.  Hard to say how well her Fortune sight works, but its probably quite good.  Whose would be better?

You could even believe a narrative where she sees Odium without Honor is an utter disaster for everyone, chooses to nudge Honor/Tanner into fighting Odium, collaborates with Odium to get Tanner in a position to be killed even though it breaks her heart even if he's already mostly checked out (hence the "We killed you" from Odium to Dalinar Unity), and then sets up so that her chosen influenced are the only folks who would end up with the Shards.  All in the name of growth of the shards and/or a safer Cosmere.  Arguably Retribution is less dangerous than Odium alone, now the hate has rules to follow. 

But you can imagine that she knew it was possible that Todium got Honor too.  It isn't like the power wasn't there looking for a vessel, and Todium did make sense as someone who had relentlessly kept his word.   But what exactly would Cultivation do to get ahead of that?  There is no halfway leaving, probably, and she's going to try to succeed.  You just know if it happens you have to bail out, even though it is costly.  But at the same time, that also might be the thing she would hope for, even if personally costly.  

Edited December 10, 2024 by DangerousPants