athosdebro86 he/him Posted December 4, 2024 Posted December 4, 2024 -REALLY Curious about why VALOR would be hiding from Odium, or indeed anyone. She was willing to talk with Harmony and Hoid, so it seems she's specifically shielding her presence from Odium. -WHAT is the "Right Thing" that Cultivation is hoping that Taravangian will do??? Could have to do with the Cultivation comment of making him someone "who could bear this power [Odium] with honor."??? -Taravangian is MUCH more willing to ask (and LISTEN to) for advice than his predecessor. He asked Hoid who to choose a champion, he asked El for advice on the fights about to happen in WaT, he was willing to see what Cultivation wanted to show him, even though he initially twisted the intended lesson. 1
CtrlAltDepressed Posted December 4, 2024 Posted December 4, 2024 11 hours ago, eriwancoselyn said: tbh, I'm not convinced that Toduim could even hold honor right now. This is fair, but I do see it a different way. I agree that Taravangian has not been Honorable by standard definitions. He has lied, cheated, and killed to achieve his goals. But, what are those goals? To save everyone. This is certainly honorable, even if the execution of that goal is not. He desires no praise or recognition for his work, and has even accepted that many will hate him for what he does, but that is his burden to bear as King. We see that compassionate Taravangian weeps for those he has hurt, and for what he has become / done. This is certainly honorable. He hates what he has to do, but he believes it to be the right thing and so he does it anyway. That is the definition of Honor. We know that Honor was obsessed with oath keeping at the end, and didnt care about the contents of that oath - just that it was upheld. Honor is not about being a nice person, it is about sticking to a code of conduct. Taravangian does that. From Taravangians perspective, he has acted with Honor. Not all the time, but who does ? Even Kaladin falls short sometimes. (Taravangian is definitely a villian and a terrible person, that is not what i mean) 11 hours ago, eriwancoselyn said: At worst, the conflicting forces of Honor and Odium inside him would combine with his logical/emotional issue to create something even more impotent then Harmony, completely unable to take even basic actions. Yes, I think this is the point. This would be a semi permanent solution to the Odium problem. Taravangian doing 'the right thing' would be taking up Honor to temper Odium, even though he doesnt want to. That act, if he chose to do so, would itself be a great example of Honor. 4
alder24 Posted December 5, 2024 Posted December 5, 2024 23 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: But, what are those goals? To save everyone. This is certainly honorable, even if the execution of that goal is not. JOURNEY BEFORE DESTINATION! It's not the end goal that makes you honorable, it's your actions. Taravangian's actions weren't honorable and he knew it. He cried because of the sins he committed. While many say that Honor is about keeping your words, there are others who would argue that it's about doing the right thing, the moral thing - that's not Taravangian. Can Taravangian Ascend to Honor? I think yes in the right circumstance, but his interpretation of Honor would be vastly different from that of Tanavast, Dalinar or Kaladin. In his hands, Honor would be something else, not about morality or personal code, probably more about "end justifies the means," or something like this. But as Taravangian is right now, he would have a hard time Ascending to Honor. 1
jamskinner Posted December 5, 2024 Posted December 5, 2024 On 12/4/2024 at 7:20 AM, CtrlAltDepressed said: This is fair, but I do see it a different way. I agree that Taravangian has not been Honorable by standard definitions. He has lied, cheated, and killed to achieve his goals. But, what are those goals? To save everyone. This is certainly honorable, even if the execution of that goal is not. He desires no praise or recognition for his work, and has even accepted that many will hate him for what he does, but that is his burden to bear as King. We see that compassionate Taravangian weeps for those he has hurt, and for what he has become / done. This is certainly honorable. He hates what he has to do, but he believes it to be the right thing and so he does it anyway. That is the definition of Honor. We know that Honor was obsessed with oath keeping at the end, and didnt care about the contents of that oath - just that it was upheld. Honor is not about being a nice person, it is about sticking to a code of conduct. Taravangian does that. From Taravangians perspective, he has acted with Honor. Not all the time, but who does ? Even Kaladin falls short sometimes. (Taravangian is definitely a villian and a terrible person, that is not what i mean) Yes, I think this is the point. This would be a semi permanent solution to the Odium problem. Taravangian doing 'the right thing' would be taking up Honor to temper Odium, even though he doesnt want to. That act, if he chose to do so, would itself be a great example of Honor. I doubt most people believe that the ends justify the means. Journey before destination.
Recommended Posts