The True Voidbringers

[dvoraen]

Hi! Have a wild piece of speculation. As I mentioned in another post, I wanted to talk about something that's been bothering me lately about some of the Silent Gatherers' collections, as well as one other little bit from Jasnah's notes. So let's begin with the major issue:

Some of the descriptions presumed to be about the singers as Voidbringers are antithetical to what is seen in present-day Roshar, as well as anachronistic.

Quote

"They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn... "
—Collected on Palahishev 1172, 21 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a baker's apprentice

Here is the first issue I have that makes matters strange to me. I think many of us presumed this to be about the singers and/or Fused, particularly those with predominantly black-and-red skin patterns. But if that's so, when many singers have a black coloring to their skin, and they purportedly "bring the darkness", how are you seeing anything unless this Death Rattle is being literal? The second issue, is that we have yet to see any singers (Fused, Regal, or otherwise) that even approaches the "aflame" motif, let alone "bring the darkness." While we haven't seen any Division Fused yet firsthand, which is a possibility since Division can cause burns (ref. Malata's engraving demonstration in Oathbringer), I remain unconvinced that they'd be setting themselves on fire. Is it possible this is a potential form of power we have not seen? Yes, but there's still the conundrum about bringing the darkness mentioned. I don't think this alludes to Voidlight, because otherwise the wording of "all you can see" wouldn't be implying the literal lack of light and visibility.

So my conclusion here, is that this isn't talking about singers.

Quote

Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn.

—Collected on Ishashan 1172, 18 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a lighteyed spinster of the eighth dahn.

This is the second problem I have. The speaker is hard to define. My first take was that this was from the perspective of a singer talking about defeating humans, but with what we know about Braize/Damnation now, that makes no sense. The only "burning" that has happened there, that we know of, is the Heralds' torture sessions. In The Sunlit Man, Nomad is explicit that Roshar's version of hell is not fiery or even warm in temperature:

Quote

The Sunlit Man, Chapter 34

... His own planet's Damnation was a cold place, but so many others talked of eternal fire ...

As such,  it makes no sense that a singer would refer to "[burning], as we once did" here. However, we have what happened to Ashyn:

Quote

Rhythm of War, Chapter 76

"I wasn't there when your kind came to our world. My grandmother, however, always mentioned the smoke. At first she thought you had strange skin patterns -- but that was because so many human faces had been burned or marked by soot from the destruction of the world they left behind.

"She talked about the way your livestock moaned and cried from their burns."

So if we take Raboniel at face value here, humans are the only people that make sense with respect to having (literally) been burning.

Quote

"Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness."

A quote from the Iviad probably needs no reference notation, but this comes from line 482, should I need to locate it quickly.

This excerpt from Jasnah's research into the Voidbringers is one of the major problems I have with descriptions of them. Every known Regal and Fused, and even individuals being consumed by some of the Unmade, have had red eyes, a sign of corrupted Investiture at play. Where, then, does this detail about eyes like pits of blackness originate? If the coloring is accurate, the most educated guess that we can currently make is that this is a sign of "pure" Odium Investiture at play.

Quote

Oathbringer, Chapter 57

Then somehow, the flames seemed to burn into a deep blackness, violet and angry.

This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself. It was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside.

Quote

Rhythm of War, Interlude I-2, Sja-anat

She rose up, taking the form of a woman of streaming black smoke with pure white eyes. Shadows and mist, Odium's pure essence.

Given that Odium's Investiture veers strongly towards black-and-violet, as we've seen with Voidlight, I can only speculate that the "pits of blackness" are eyes glowing like Voidlight, much as Radiants' eyes have a glow that matches the Light they've taken in. This would suggest we have entities that could possibly draw upon Odium/Voidlight to use abilities attributable strictly to Odium. Whether that's Voidbinding or something else, I am unsure, but there is evidence (a WoB) directly stating that humans were dabbling in things that were very likely sourced from Odium:

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362/#e11147

Blightsong
In Oathbringer it is revealed that the humans who originally came to Roshar were the first ones to be named Voidbringers and that they carried magical powers. The Stormfather also implies that modern Surgebinding didn't exist before the Heralds. Were the original powers that the humans possessed Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson
So, we're getting into lots of interesting definitional problems here. And also the ways that different entities perceive the definitions of different terms. I will answer this question specifically as we do the flashbacks from Ash and Taln's viewpoints. So you've got a long ways to wait. But understand that definitions are not always-- the way that people define things cannot always be trusted. That said, humans were not using powers from Honor originally.

So putting it all together, this is my belief:

• Voidbringer legends have conflated multiple people (races) together.
• The continued mentions of fire and burning and bringing the darkness are references to Odium-aligned humans from Ashyn.

And because of that:

I think Voidbringers from Ashyn are coming.

[drunkenbotanist]

The soldiers influenced by unmade in Kholinar have shadowed eyes

[Slayd_07]

26 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

have had red eyes, a sign of corrupted Investiture at play

It's generally the opposite in the cosmere - black is generally the colour of corrupted investiture. (Think Nightblood, the darkness in Yumi, etc.)
Besides that, I think this theory relies on some misconceptions about Death Rattles. Sure, flame isn't the best metaphor to describe the appearence of the Parshendi - but it's how a human, on their deathbed, being shown a vision of the future they can barely understand would probably describe them. 

 

31 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

Quote

Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn.

—Collected on Ishashan 1172, 18 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a lighteyed spinster of the eighth dahn.

This is the second problem I have. The speaker is hard to define.

I think the speaker is pretty easy to define. This is probably a human perspective, after the invasion of Roshar and the expellation of the Parsh to Braize. Like you said, the "they shall burn, as we once did" refers to how the humans were burned and soot-stained as they left Ashyn. I believe there have been plenty of references to Damnation as being burning or warm - while the description of it in the Sunlit Man is probably technically correct, I think that's not common knowledge on Roshar. 

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

8 hours ago, dvoraen said:

Quote

"Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness."

A quote from the Iviad probably needs no reference notation, but this comes from line 482, should I need to locate it quickly.

This excerpt from Jasnah's research into the Voidbringers is one of the major problems I have with descriptions of them. Every known Regal and Fused, and even individuals being consumed by some of the Unmade, have had red eyes, a sign of corrupted Investiture at play. Where, then, does this detail about eyes like pits of blackness originate? If the coloring is accurate, the most educated guess that we can currently make is that this is a sign of "pure" Odium Investiture at play.

I do not remember the exact quote, but Navani when she confronts Moash I think talks of his dead eyes, 

[Njvodin]

11 hours ago, Slayd_07 said:

It's generally the opposite in the cosmere - black is generally the colour of corrupted investiture

I was always under the impression that it was red that signifies the corruption of Investiture, just not always. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Questioner

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Questioner

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Questioner

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug.
ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

I think that black doesn't necessarily mean corruption, but red is more likely to be actual corrupted Investiture

[LewsTherinTelescope]

16 hours ago, dvoraen said:

The second issue, is that we have yet to see any singers (Fused, Regal, or otherwise) that even approaches the "aflame" motif, let alone "bring the darkness." While we haven't seen any Division Fused yet firsthand, which is a possibility since Division can cause burns (ref. Malata's engraving demonstration in Oathbringer), I remain unconvinced that they'd be setting themselves on fire.

I think it's plausible they do, actually. All the Fused powers are very internally-directed compared to the Radiants (they can use Surges externally but rarely do)—the Magnified Ones grow their own carapace, the Deepest Ones meld their own axi with nearby stone, the Heavenly Ones almost never Lash anything else, Raboniel only Soulcasts her own breath or weapons stabbed into her, etc. So the Division Fused would most likely be using it on themselves as well, and fire seems like the most useful thing to do there. Probably their carapace would be specially designed to protect them.

16 hours ago, dvoraen said:

Every known Regal and Fused, and even individuals being consumed by some of the Unmade, have had red eyes, a sign of corrupted Investiture at play. Where, then, does this detail about eyes like pits of blackness originate?

Normal singer eyes appear black unless you look closely under the right light. Also, in the reveal scene Shallan adds one key line that isn't included in the original epigraph for some reason which seems preeeeetty singery:

Spoiler

Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness. Music when they kill.

That said,

16 hours ago, dvoraen said:

The speaker is hard to define. My first take was that this was from the perspective of a singer talking about defeating humans, but with what we know about Braize/Damnation now, that makes no sense.

I have no explanation for this one, you're right that it makes no sense to refer to the Fused burning on Braize. So I think your theory is plausible, I just don't think the other quotes are about it.

15 hours ago, Slayd_07 said:

This is probably a human perspective, after the invasion of Roshar and the expellation of the Parsh to Braize.

That doesn't match with what Brandon's said about Death Rattles imo:

Spoiler

R'Shara

Are the Death Rattles always about the future, or can they be about the past?

Brandon Sanderson

They are not always exclusively about the future, but they are not generally going to be about the past either.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

[drunkenbotanist]

16 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

The soldiers influenced by unmade in Kholinar have shadowed eyes

Also Ishar's men in shadesmar in RoW

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

On 11/29/2024 at 6:24 AM, Slayd_07 said:

It's generally the opposite in the cosmere - black is generally the colour of corrupted investiture. (Think Nightblood, the darkness in Yumi, etc.)
Besides that, I think this theory relies on some misconceptions about Death Rattles. Sure, flame isn't the best metaphor to describe the appearence of the Parshendi - but it's how a human, on their deathbed, being shown a vision of the future they can barely understand would probably describe them. 

Red is corrupted Investiture, Black is kind of like excess waste of Investiture. Nightblood consumes so much that he leaks off the excess,

Spoiler

and the Shroud in Yumi was the excess from the mass consumption of souls when they activated the Father Machine. 

 

[alder24]

On 11/28/2024 at 6:24 PM, Slayd_07 said:

It's generally the opposite in the cosmere - black is generally the colour of corrupted investiture. (Think Nightblood, the darkness in Yumi, etc.)

1 hour ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

Red is corrupted Investiture, Black is kind of like excess waste of Investiture. Nightblood consumes so much that he leaks off the excess,

  Reveal hidden contents

and the Shroud in Yumi was the excess from the mass consumption of souls when they activated the Father Machine. 

 

Both red and black colors indicate corrupted investiture. But black is special as it's a sign that corrupted investiture tries to become fully alive and sentient, but it's being stopped by something. 

Spoiler

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Diss the Chris

In Yumi, the outer edge of Kilahito and the Nightmares are being described as being completely nonreflective, and they drip with a black liquid that smokes. The same description has been given to the Midnight Essence and to Nightblood. Are these linked, and indicative of some kind of warped Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They are significantly linked. (There you are; we’ll use “significantly” in that regard.)

YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin.

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

So there is no meaningful connection between Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You weren’t going to let me off the hook. You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO!

Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Strifelover

My question is around connections between corrupted Investiture on different planets. We have the shroud; we have Midnight Essence; we have the nightmares; and we have Nightblood. All of them have, like, oozy black smoke. Are they all connected somehow with the corrupted Investiture of Odium, Ambition...?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. The question is: all of these different manifestations (we've got the Midnight Essence, we've got the shroud, we've got Nightblood), are they connected? Are they all related in some way to Odium or Ambition? The answer is no to the second.

When I was building the Cosmere, one of the things that I knew is that I wanted to explore magic systems really in depth. And in order to do that, I built fundamental principles by how magic, Investiture, would manifest. And I wanted it to be consistent. For instance, I wanted the rules... if you're making illusions in one world, I wanted those illusions to behave a lot the same way that they would on other worlds. So I built these fundamental principles that I build up from. And one of those fundamental principles is about Investiture that is trying to become alive and is being held back by something. And that is where you get Midnight Essence sort of things. It's, like, one step from being able to become self-aware, but it's being held back. And there's even, kind of, some frustration in there, as much as something not truly self-aware can have. So if you watch for that theme, you'll see it more and more.

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)