Could The Recreance Have Been Intended to Kill Honour?

[teknopathetic he/him]

I’m beginning to wonder if the thing people were afraid of was what Honour might do, and a mass breaking of oaths at once may have been the only way anyone could think of to take him out. 
 

Or alternatively, it was done as an act of compassion. But either way, I’m beginning to think walking away was to stop Honour. 
 

EVERYONE did it. At once. That’s nuts. That’s such a horrific breaking of bonds all together. 

Edited November 27, 2024 by teknopathetic

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I’m beginning to wonder if the thing people were afraid of what Honour might do, and a mass breaking of oaths at once may have been the only way anyone could think of to take him out.

Fascinating idea. But what specifically did they fear?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Fascinating idea. But what specifically did they fear?

Well, we do know that Honor eventually became more concerned with Oaths and not the meaning of them. I also can't help but remember a WOB about why Odium wouldn't just smite the Fused and the Singers when they betrayed him in ROW.

It was because that's more of an Honor thing to do.

So maybe Honor became far more strict and controlling and started to force people to follow any oath they followed, no matter what, or he would severely punish them for not keeping it to the letter.

I can't help but wonder if the reason that the Skybreakers never quit was because they were already buying into Nale's crazy level of lawfulness, and thus exempt from any of this and had no reason to go against Honor and his madness.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I can't help but wonder if the reason that the Skybreakers never quit was because they were already buying into Nale's crazy level of lawfulness, and thus exempt from any of this and had no reason to go against Honor and his madness.

I am afraid this idea has one core issue. Why did the spren cooperate? And why would this affect the Skybreakers negatively even after it was done?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid this idea has one core issue. Why did the spren cooperate?

Because not all Spren would have liked a stark raving tyrant god any more than their human partners?

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

And why would this affect the Skybreakers negatively even after it was done?

I didn't say it did, in fact I said that they wouldn't be on Honor's bad side if they were adopting Nale's "Justice Does Not Expire" type of thinking, since the Honor that only cares for Oaths he would have probably been all for that kind of thing, so Honor wouldn't be oppressing them to keep to their oaths and they would have no reason to go against Honor.

[teknopathetic he/him]

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Because not all Spren would have liked a stark raving tyrant god any more than their human partners?

But as far as we know, every single bonded spren agreed to cooperate. Mya, and the other bonded spren, chose to break the bond. 
 

Then there seems to be some cover up. Sure the Stormfather would have known what happened. Or unbonded spren like the ambassador Inkspren should have heard at least rumours of people preparing to break their oaths. That inkspren even says it’s super weird no one knew that bonded spren chose to break their oaths. 
 

So what would cause all the bonded spren and all the radiants to unbond? Maybe a super big issue with the good of bonds. 

[Master Silver]

One of the more recent chapters said at the beginning, I pray you have the wisdom to know when to walk away. I think Honor swore an oath to defeat or bind Odium and being Honor he was incapable of going against this oath. So, he started a forever war which appealed to Odium's vanity and lust for battle and destruction. The Heralds and the Fused broke roughly at the same time. The spren saw what was happening over thousands of years and did what they had to in order to stop the cycle. Not sure if the Recreance was a response to Honor's death (because without him limiting surges they become more dangerous) or if it caused it. All three things, the breaking of the Oath pact, the Recreance and Tanavast's death are connected somehow. The Stormfather knows something though. There is a plan perhaps to have the Shard of Honor absent a human host bind Odium forever maybe? 

[Confused]

6 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

So what would cause all the bonded spren and all the radiants to unbond? Maybe a super big issue with the good of bonds.

I wrote about this in a 2019 post, "New Theory on the Recreants." I said,

Quote

Note the homophone in the OP’s title. The idea the name “Recreance” began as an epithet for the faithless, cowardly Knights Radiant - “the Recreants” - goes back at least to this 2012 post and others have periodically raised it. I buy this idea.

I think the Radiants believed they acted in the only way they could. Melishi’s plan enslaved the Singers and stopped their transformations. When the Radiants learned this, nine of the orders concluded honor demands “a spren for a spren.” If Singers couldn’t bond spren and transform, Radiants wouldn’t bond spren either. Their own spren may even have agreed. Only the Skybreakers demurred, thinking the result “just.”

I still believe this. BAM's imprisonment caused Singer slave form. The Radiants felt obligated to give up their own bonds in response. The Skybreakers disagreed. Since their primary divine attribute is "just," I think they concluded BAM's imprisonment was "just" and chose not to break their oaths. This is the only explanation that IMO addresses each of the concerns people raise: Why did they all break their oaths at once? Why did their spren go along? Why didn't the Skybreakers go along?

Edited November 27, 2024 by Confused

[teknopathetic he/him]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

I wrote about this in a 2019 post, "New Theory on the Recreants." I said,

I still believe this. BAM's imprisonment caused Singer slave form. The Radiants felt obligated to give up their own bonds in response. The Skybreakers disagreed. Since their primary divine attribute is "just," I think they concluded BAM's imprisonment was "just" and chose not to break their oaths. This is the only explanation that IMO addresses each of the concerns people raise: Why did they all break their oaths at once? Why did their spren go along? Why didn't the Skybreakers go along?

Thanks for sharing that again! 
 

I like it, but I’m not sure it gels entirely with what Mya says at the trial. Mya says we did it to save …” and then cuts off because she’s so tired. 
 

It seems like it was actively done to save something/someone more so then a tit for tat trade. 
 

Your theory could still be true though if they though this tit for tat would save the world. But it’s unclear to me that this is the cases based on what Mya was trying to say. 

Edited November 28, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

On 11/27/2024 at 7:59 AM, teknopathetic said:

I’m beginning to wonder if the thing people were afraid of was what Honour might do, and a mass breaking of oaths at once may have been the only way anyone could think of to take him out. 
 

Or alternatively, it was done as an act of compassion. But either way, I’m beginning to think walking away was to stop Honour. 
 

EVERYONE did it. At once. That’s nuts. That’s such a horrific breaking of bonds all together. 

How would breaking Oaths kill or even hurt Honor? They weren't even bound to him and Honor was already dying before the Recreance happened. I don't think this would work like this. Also the Recreance happened in the span of days and the decision was made individually by each Radant and their spren - there was no grand meeting where everyone decided to break their Oath at a specific time or something like this. I still think that the best explanation, which is also supported by the books, is that they saw the consequences of imprisoning BAM and realized that they already did destroy Roshar, just like Honor promised them, just like their ancestors destroyed their homeworld, and thus they decided to break their Oaths to save Roshar from Surgebinding and further destruction. There might be something else to it, but I think the core reason was just that. OB ch 113:

Quote

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying.

 

Spoiler

Questioner: (paraphrased)

In RoW was see Kaladin telling Syl that he believes that the Recreance took place not as one event such as fever stone keep, but on an individual basis. This has created many discussions in the fandom about how the spren could have been unaware that they would become deadeye's. Is this because it took people years later to discover how to summon and dismiss shards through an ornementation mishap, and deadeye's weren't seen by the other spren in shadesmar until there was no stopping anyone. 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The recreance wasn't something that happened over months, more like days. And the decision was made in the heat of the moment by the spren and their knights.

Footnote: I don't have the exact wording unfortunately, but he did say 'days not months' and explained that this was something that he hoped to be totally cleared up by the end of book 5. 
Miscellaneous 2021 (July 1, 2021)

 

[Master Silver]

they question of how does breaking oaths hurt Honor is a good one. I think the answer can be found in the phrase, "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men." Perhaps Honor saw something in mankind that He thought would better allow him to keep his intent so he abandoned the Singers who maybe were easier for Odium to influence. Depending on how closely Honor bound himself to mankind might have affected Honor's power.