Kaladin and the Oathpact

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

I'm almost certain at this point that Kaladin is going to replace Jezrien in a new, reforged Oathpact. Why do I think this?

1. In the latest chapter, The Wind is talking about how Kaladin must "preserve a remnant of Honor." I believe that the Oathpact is a large part of Honor's investiture (like the Mists on Scadrial), and to preserve it would require a new member to take Jez's place

2. In one of the previous chapters, Renarin sees a vision that is 12 figures in a field, and goes on to describe the rough races that comprise the heralds, plus a blue woman. These 12 are probably the heralds, Kaladin, Szeth and Syl.

3. Even further back, Dalinar offers to make Kaladin next in line in for the throne in Urithiru, making him King of the Radiants, a position previously held by Jezrien, Herald of Kings.

4. Kaladin is all about protecting. What better way to protect people than to stave off the invasion of Roshar by the Fused? It makes sense to me as the conclusion to his arc. With Kaladin among them to provide mental support, the new Oathpact will hopefully be more resilient than before.

Any thoughts/pushback on this? Forgive me if this isn't exactly original, but I couldn't find any recent mention of it, and was compelled to write this out after reading the latest chapter 

[feruchemicalrockband]

I'm in agreement with you, but the biggest counter-argument I've had when bringing this up is "Why would they refound the Oathpact? The Fused can no longer be trapped on Braize because of the Everstorm." That being said, I don't think any character has ever said that the Oathpact reforged would be circumvented by the Everstorm. Odium just states that he can't hold them back.

The other side of the argument is that it's fairly unbelievable that Kaladin would willingly subject himself to torture on Braize at this point of his story. I do think there's something there with the Wind coming with them to Braize, supporting the Heralds. In RoW, Kaladin's mental torture may have been happening on a place similar to Braize, where the wind "hated him". Perhaps this is why the Wind disappears at the end of the book?

 

Here are some extras ideas I had that lean towards Kaladin as the Windrunner Herald, (or just the Oathpact being reforged):

- The Fused have to leave Roshar for some time, otherwise having a 10-15 year gap between books 5 and 6 makes no sense. That's a lot of room for a lot of conflict in an era that is absolutely stuffed with progress, and saying that nothing overly important happens during that period would be wild.

The 10-15 year gap allows the singers and humans to create some common ground, turning the conflict in Arc 2 into a very different one.

 

- Adding onto your thoughts about the 12 people in Renarin's vision, Szeth may also be in a position to become the new Herald (I really like the narrative element of him starting the story with Jezrien's Honorblade and ending it with it as well), but he's not a good fit.

 

- The Kholin house's symbol of the tower and crown will likely end up meaning something else. Kholinar has a lot of references to the Windrunners (Wind blades and the Windrunner river). I could see the tower and crown having a relation to Jezrien. Alluding to the tower, crown and spear death rattle.

 

- In the prelude to the Stormlight Archive, I do not believe there is a single mention of Honor, the god. There is a lot of talk of Heralds, the Oathpact, and forgiveness, but nothing on Honor or shards. That's worth mentioning since a prelude typically refers to a short opening piece of music that conveys the major themes of a work.

 

Long winded, but yeah that's all.

 

Oh also I think it would be really cool to see the other Heralds be all "Don't make this choice lightly, this will not be an easy task" and Kaladin responds with something like "it's fine, I was in Bridge Four."

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

4 hours ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

The Fused can no longer be trapped on Braize because of the Everstorm.

Do we know this is true? And even if it is, I'm fairly sure between a lucid Ishar, Hoid and the Stormfather we could work out a solution. I understand that the fused come back with every loop of the Everstorm, but if the heralds went to Braize, would they now bar the way and prevent them from coming back? That would mean that the coalition would no longer be facing and endless war against ever-returning enemies, which would be a huge win.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

4. Kaladin is all about protecting. What better way to protect people than to stave off the invasion of Roshar by the Fused? It makes sense to me as the conclusion to his arc. With Kaladin among them to provide mental support, the new Oathpact will hopefully be more resilient than before.

Any thoughts/pushback on this? Forgive me if this isn't exactly original, but I couldn't find any recent mention of it, and was compelled to write this out after reading the latest chapter 

What would be the point of a new Oathpact? The Parshendi are free. Kaladin is not going to massacre them. The point now is to end the cycle of Desolations.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

56 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What would be the point of a new Oathpact? The Parshendi are free. Kaladin is not going to massacre them. The point now is to end the cycle of Desolations.

It's been a while since my last reading of the series, but the Oathpact existed to keep the Fused at bay, right? I don't see the Fused ceasing there attacks any time soon (especially since the majority of the leadership are gripped by some sort of madness), regardless of what the Parshendi want. Reforging the Oathpact in order to lock the Fused back on Braize is in my opinion the surest way to give the peoples of Roshar time to come up with a more permanent solution.

The only Parshendi who would need to die are the ones currently possessed by Fused, and only the Fused who refuse to come to peaceful terms.

[BinarySecond]

3 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Do we know this is true? And even if it is, I'm fairly sure between a lucid Ishar, Hoid and the Stormfather we could work out a solution. I understand that the fused come back with every loop of the Everstorm, but if the heralds went to Braize, would they now bar the way and prevent them from coming back? That would mean that the coalition would no longer be facing and endless war against ever-returning enemies, which would be a huge win.

The purpose of the Everstorm was to circumvent the Oathpact. After 4000 years Taln never broke so they (Team Odium) were looking for another way to continue the conflict.

[+Child of Hodor]

5 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Do we know this is true? And even if it is, I'm fairly sure between a lucid Ishar, Hoid and the Stormfather we could work out a solution. I understand that the fused come back with every loop of the Everstorm, but if the heralds went to Braize, would they now bar the way and prevent them from coming back? That would mean that the coalition would no longer be facing and endless war against ever-returning enemies, which would be a huge win.

1 hour ago, BinarySecond said:

The purpose of the Everstorm was to circumvent the Oathpact. After 4000 years Taln never broke so they (Team Odium) were looking for another way to continue the conflict.

"He won't remain bound by this. The enemy. He'll find a way around it. You know he will" Kalak in the prelude. 

The everstorm is the "barrier storm" in the cognitive on Braize as mentioned in RoW. It is presumably the mechanism that kept the Fused locked on Braize. It was meant to contain the Fused there (for)ever. But a piece of it was broken off and moved to Roshar connecting it and the Fused to Roshar serving as a bridge to Roshar. 

Right now, even Odium could not contain the Fused to Braize if he wanted to, he says as much to Dalinar in RoW. However, if that piece of the everstorm on Roshar was either moved back to Braize or destroyed it might be enough to break the connection. 

I think we do get a new Herald, but it is Dalinar as both Herald and Vessel of Honor and they modify the Oathpact to apply to Odium himself. Cognitive Shadows (heralds) were enough to trap Cognitive Shadows (fused). Now Vessel traps Vessel. The Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds Dalinar would be both Honor and Herald so he can agree with himself so that as long as he remains on Braize Odium is stuck there as well. Even if Dalinar loses the contest and becomes one of the Fused, Fused go back to Braize automatically which would engage the lock. 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

I'm almost certain at this point that Kaladin is going to replace Jezrien in a new, reforged Oathpact. Why do I think this?

1. In the latest chapter, The Wind is talking about how Kaladin must "preserve a remnant of Honor." I believe that the Oathpact is a large part of Honor's investiture (like the Mists on Scadrial), and to preserve it would require a new member to take Jez's place

2. In one of the previous chapters, Renarin sees a vision that is 12 figures in a field, and goes on to describe the rough races that comprise the heralds, plus a blue woman. These 12 are probably the heralds, Kaladin, Szeth and Syl.

3. Even further back, Dalinar offers to make Kaladin next in line in for the throne in Urithiru, making him King of the Radiants, a position previously held by Jezrien, Herald of Kings.

4. Kaladin is all about protecting. What better way to protect people than to stave off the invasion of Roshar by the Fused? It makes sense to me as the conclusion to his arc. With Kaladin among them to provide mental support, the new Oathpact will hopefully be more resilient than before.

Any thoughts/pushback on this? Forgive me if this isn't exactly original, but I couldn't find any recent mention of it, and was compelled to write this out after reading the latest chapter 

I don't like the idea of reforging the Oathpact, I think this is a dead end simply because it was tried once before and it failed spectacularly. The Oathpact is bound to end in a disaster. Making 10 people suffer through endless torture isn't any solution, it's just a delaying tactic which will bakfire one day. And now when Fused know that they just need to capture Heralds in gemstones to eliminate the Oathpact entirely, there is no reason to even try reforging the Oathpact. Sooner than later Heralds will break again, this will start another Desolation, Fused will capture Heralds and Kaladin in gemstones and then what's next? Making another Oathpact and sacrificing another 10 people? Oathpact is useless now, they need a new solution, a permanent solution - something that Rayse has agreed to.

And why would you want Kaladin, who already struggles immensely with his own depression, to be tortured for an eternity on Braize? That's just cruel. I don't want him to be a Herald. Kaladin isn't just about protecting people, he did an unhealthy amount of protecting, sacrificing himself for others. He needs to learn to protect himself as well, how to live for himself and those around him. Leaving the army was a step in the right direction and he didn't do this to protect others - he did it for himself.

 

[Kfish]

My issue with this is that reforging the Oathpact would kind of undo the work of the last two books showing that this isn't a one-sided conflict of good versus evil. It's just not good from a narrative aspect disregarding the fact Odium has already implied it wouldn't work.

[Master Silver]

4 hours ago, Kfish said:

My issue with this is that reforging the Oathpact would kind of undo the work of the last two books showing that this isn't a one-sided conflict of good versus evil. It's just not good from a narrative aspect disregarding the fact Odium has already implied it wouldn't work.

I actually don't think that this is true. Odium said that his people are growing tired of the conflict and seek a terrible ending (anti-light). Anti-light means that the Cycle of Desolations have to end. Both Fused and Radiant spren can face a true death. So, we have heard that there is a 20 year gap between books. This means that a generation can grow up and prepare for the last war. Odium likely thought that with Honor dead he would be able to finally win, so humankind surviving, is in itself a victory. The Radiants reformed. All three bondsmith (possibly) active. The Shard of Honor being taken up and the Heralds functioning again. I think that is really a huge victory for mankind. They have 20 years to prep for the war to end all wars. I imagine there are going to be lots of surprises for us though.

[Kfish]

4 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I actually don't think that this is true. Odium said that his people are growing tired of the conflict and seek a terrible ending (anti-light). Anti-light means that the Cycle of Desolations have to end. Both Fused and Radiant spren can face a true death. So, we have heard that there is a 20 year gap between books. This means that a generation can grow up and prepare for the last war. Odium likely thought that with Honor dead he would be able to finally win, so humankind surviving, is in itself a victory. The Radiants reformed. All three bondsmith (possibly) active. The Shard of Honor being taken up and the Heralds functioning again. I think that is really a huge victory for mankind. They have 20 years to prep for the war to end all wars. I imagine there are going to be lots of surprises for us though.

I really don't think the back half will be about Odium vs Honor. I think that's the front half conflict regardless of how it ends. 

[BinarySecond]

On 11/26/2024 at 12:41 PM, Child of Hodor said:

The everstorm is the "barrier storm" in the cognitive on Braize as mentioned in RoW. It is presumably the mechanism that kept the Fused locked on Braize. It was meant to contain the Fused there (for)ever. But a piece of it was broken off and moved to Roshar connecting it and the Fused to Roshar serving as a bridge to Roshar. 

Can you send me the reference for that? I would like to re-read it. I am doubtful.

[Treach]

On 11/25/2024 at 9:08 PM, feruchemicalrockband said:

I'm in agreement with you, but the biggest counter-argument I've had when bringing this up is "Why would they refound the Oathpact? The Fused can no longer be trapped on Braize because of the Everstorm." That being said, I don't think any character has ever said that the Oathpact reforged would be circumvented by the Everstorm. Odium just states that he can't hold them back.

The other side of the argument is that it's fairly unbelievable that Kaladin would willingly subject himself to torture on Braize at this point of his story. I do think there's something there with the Wind coming with them to Braize, supporting the Heralds. In RoW, Kaladin's mental torture may have been happening on a place similar to Braize, where the wind "hated him". Perhaps this is why the Wind disappears at the end of the book?

 

Here are some extras ideas I had that lean towards Kaladin as the Windrunner Herald, (or just the Oathpact being reforged):

- The Fused have to leave Roshar for some time, otherwise having a 10-15 year gap between books 5 and 6 makes no sense. That's a lot of room for a lot of conflict in an era that is absolutely stuffed with progress, and saying that nothing overly important happens during that period would be wild.

The 10-15 year gap allows the singers and humans to create some common ground, turning the conflict in Arc 2 into a very different one.

 

- Adding onto your thoughts about the 12 people in Renarin's vision, Szeth may also be in a position to become the new Herald (I really like the narrative element of him starting the story with Jezrien's Honorblade and ending it with it as well), but he's not a good fit.

 

- The Kholin house's symbol of the tower and crown will likely end up meaning something else. Kholinar has a lot of references to the Windrunners (Wind blades and the Windrunner river). I could see the tower and crown having a relation to Jezrien. Alluding to the tower, crown and spear death rattle.

 

- In the prelude to the Stormlight Archive, I do not believe there is a single mention of Honor, the god. There is a lot of talk of Heralds, the Oathpact, and forgiveness, but nothing on Honor or shards. That's worth mentioning since a prelude typically refers to a short opening piece of music that conveys the major themes of a work.

 

Long winded, but yeah that's all.

 

Oh also I think it would be really cool to see the other Heralds be all "Don't make this choice lightly, this will not be an easy task" and Kaladin responds with something like "it's fine, I was in Bridge Four."

This could go a lot of different ways, so not speculating so much as adding fuel. 

I don't remember who posted it, but IIRC it was a canonical source, but the Knight's Radiant symbol has changed. The center sword was Sunmaker in the old logo, and it is Nightblood in the new one. Do with that nugget what you will. 

[Zackarcanum he/him]

On 11/26/2024 at 3:04 PM, alder24 said:

I don't like the idea of reforging the Oathpact, I think this is a dead end simply because it was tried once before and it failed spectacularly. The Oathpact is bound to end in a disaster. Making 10 people suffer through endless torture isn't any solution, it's just a delaying tactic which will bakfire one day. And now when Fused know that they just need to capture Heralds in gemstones to eliminate the Oathpact entirely, there is no reason to even try reforging the Oathpact. Sooner than later Heralds will break again, this will start another Desolation, Fused will capture Heralds and Kaladin in gemstones and then what's next? Making another Oathpact and sacrificing another 10 people? Oathpact is useless now, they need a new solution, a permanent solution - something that Rayse has agreed to.

And why would you want Kaladin, who already struggles immensely with his own depression, to be tortured for an eternity on Braize? That's just cruel. I don't want him to be a Herald. Kaladin isn't just about protecting people, he did an unhealthy amount of protecting, sacrificing himself for others. He needs to learn to protect himself as well, how to live for himself and those around him. Leaving the army was a step in the right direction and he didn't do this to protect others - he did it for himself.

 

Whoops…:)

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

Well, I'm certainly glad that I wasn't simply seeing things where there was none to see. I'm also glad that the objections that other people brought up (namely, why would you want Kaladin to be tortured?) were resolved.

As to what is in store for Kaladin now... I am unsure. Presumably the Heralds are going to want stay locked away until Retribution manages to find them, lest they open the spren to his will, but that hardly seems to make an engaging storyline for the next arc, and we know that Taln and Ash are both flashback PoVs in the second arc, which implies that they will be at least somewhat active (hopefully more so than Venli).

Maybe the Heralds will simply be out of commission for book 6, taking the time to recuperate before returning, like Taln did at the end of WoK, to take up prominent roles in book 7 onwards? Perhaps the most impactful thing about the Heralds is that they have knowledge of binding Surges without Stormlight, which I could see being very useful in a world where Warlight is accessible exclusively through their enemy, and as stated in WaT, it is possible for them to do so if any of the Three who made the agreement are not present - and Cultivation conveniently peaced out as fast as she could.

That being said, we did just read through an entire book on how terrible of an idea it would be to unleash unbound Surgebinders on Roshar.

I very much hope that Kaladin can return for that drink with Shallan and Adolin, and I would find immense joy in seeing him return to Szeth, finding him in a little farmhouse with his wife and kids and some sheep too.

And if the chapter arches return, will we get to see our favourite bridgeboy staring back at us? 

[Inevitability]

Hey, props on the theory. This one aged well!

[NewGuy 16]

If chapter arches return I would be insanely happy to see the Herald of Second Chances staring out at us!

Also, I wonder if that aspect of Kaladin’s heraldship means there’s more in store between him and Moash. Not saying I want a redemption arc to happen, but…

[Moirne she/her]

3 hours ago, NewGuy 16 said:

If chapter arches return I would be insanely happy to see the Herald of Second Chances staring out at us!

Also, I wonder if that aspect of Kaladin’s heraldship means there’s more in store between him and Moash. Not saying I want a redemption arc to happen, but…

Too bad, Moash is on at least his 5th chance. 

[RedBlue]

I didn’t see this twist coming, but I really like the way it panned out.

I think it’s really cool how the New Oathpact is almost an inversion of the old one. Instead of locking away enemy Fused in a state of perpetual conflict, this one protects both innocent and combatant spren from attack. Instead of inflicting torture on the Heralds, this one gives them an opportunity to rest and recuperate.

It’s like the beginning of a new, better era for the Heralds. 

[+mdross81 he/him]

This feels like the right thread to drop this. I love these little moments when Brandon is so obviously winking at us but we just don’t know it yet. Kal talking to Skar in chapter 9 of WaT

Quote

“You’ll be back,” Skar said.

”I don’t know if I will, Skar. Not this time.”

”I was there when the storms tried to claim you. We went out to cut down a corpse and found you alive. There’s more than a bit of the wind to you, Kal, and the east wind sees tomorrow before anyone else does. You’ll be back.”

Indeed, Kal will Return.

[RedBlue]

10 years later

Kaladin: um hello everyone. Sorry you spent ten years thinking I was dead. That must have been upsetting. Anyway, I am back, and I’m an immortal Herald now

Everyone, literally everyone who knows Kaladin: I storming KNEW it

[Elder]

40 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

10 years later

Kaladin: um hello everyone. Sorry you spent ten years thinking I was dead. That must have been upsetting. Anyway, I am back, and I’m an immortal Herald now

Everyone, literally everyone who knows Kaladin: I storming KNEW it

Adolin: he’s probably their leader now

[alder24]

On 12/8/2024 at 8:58 PM, Zackarcanum said:

Whoops…:)

Good thing I've stayed away from the forum since friday

I'm satisfy with this outcome, the difference is that this Oathpact is not meant to prevent Fused from Returning (as it was clearly established in the book that it won't work anymore, Fused are reborn in the Everstorm without the need to return to Braize), but it's shielding spren from Retribution. The goal of the Oathpact is different now, which makes it reasonable. Most importantly, no torture is involved. It's a new Oathpact that fixes the problems of the old one. Lastly, Kal's character arc was completed, he did say the Words that he will protect himself (to protect the others).

Congratulations on seeing all the clues leading to this @Faceless.Immortal, that was a great catch and it makes sense now.

[Starla]

On 12/10/2024 at 3:57 PM, NewGuy 16 said:

If chapter arches return I would be insanely happy to see the Herald of Second Chances staring out at us!

Check out the arch in the epilogue. Looks like Herald Kaladin has already begun to rebuild it.

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 12/11/2024 at 4:56 PM, Elder said:

Adolin: he’s probably their leader now

Kaladin Stormblessed: I'm back! I'm not dead! I'm the Herald of Kings, Herald of the Wind, and Herald of Second Chances.

Adolin: Yeah, we know!

Oroden: Gagadin?! Wan to pay bocks?!

Kaladin: ...