bmcclure7 Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) Iyatil And Mraize are both radiant now. Do you have any guesses as to what order they might be a part of? Edited October 28, 2024 by bmcclure7
The Sovereign Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) Based on Sja-Anat's indication that her children will be able to help them navigate the Spiritual Realm and Tumi and Glys's willingness to be Enlightened I would guess they are Enlightened/Corrupted Mistspren; So, Truthwatchers. It should also be noted that the 2nd Ideal of the Truthwatchers is related to Seeking Truth: I.E. A Hunt. Edited October 28, 2024 by The Sovereign Apparently I typed "Awakened" rather than "Enlightened, fixed for clarity. 2
bmcclure7 Posted October 28, 2024 Author Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Sovereign said: Based on Sja-Anat's indication that her children will be able to help them navigate the Spiritual Realm and Tumi and Glys's willingness to be awakened I would guess they are Awakened Mistspren; So, Truthwatchers. It should also be noted that the 2nd Ideal of the Truthwatchers is related to Seeking Truth: I.E. A Hunt. We don’t know that she could have corrupted other Spren Edited October 28, 2024 by bmcclure7
Ninth of the Night Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 We haven't seen any other Radiant spren willing to let Sja-anat touch them. So we're left to presume for now that she's only convinced mistspren so far. But who knows. Shallan seems to think they could be of a different order so maybe...
logicless.bt Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 Said this in the main discussion thread, but if they've bonded enlightened Mistspren then I think the Ghostbloods will remain active and relevant in the second half of the series. They now have a method of subverting the future sight of any Roshar-friendly Shards. Previously I was of the opinion that Shallan would basically chase them off-world and decrease their relevance, while Roshar and Scadrial would offically have contact in the second half and we'd follow their nation dynamics that way. 3
The Sovereign Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said: We don’t she could have corrupted other Spren We don't what? But yes, she certainly could have Enlightened/Corrupted other Radiant Spren. We know both from the books and WOBs that the Mistspren are at least willing to listen to what Sja-Anat is offering. On the other hand, Regarding their implied ability to help Iyatil and Mraize navigate the Spiritual Realm, that could be tied in with the Transportation Surge which means Inkspren or Lightspren, in this case I would lean towards Lightspren as the Inkspren as a whole seem unwilling to bond currently, Ivory excluded. As @Ashbringer pointed out, we have already seen Sja-Anat is Enlightening the Inkspren of the Oathgates, so there is precedence there. 36 minutes ago, logicless.bt said: Previously I was of the opinion that Shallan would basically chase them off-world and decrease their relevance, while Roshar and Scadrial would offically have contact in the second half and we'd follow their nation dynamics that way. We do know from Kelsier's comments in The Lost Metal that Iyatil is causing some havoc on Roshar as of post Stormlight 5, Pre-Stormlight 6. Edited October 28, 2024 by The Sovereign 2
alder24 Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) Mistspren or Highspren. I think this confirms that the group of Ghostblood asking if sinking ships was lawful were Surgebinders, but they weren't Radiants, they were bonded to Enlighten Highspren. TLM ch 70: Quote “Perhaps we can help,” the man in the lead said. “You are certain this is legal? The mass sinking of private ships?” [...] Nearby, the leader of the eight people nodded to her, then launched into the air. Spoiler Matias_Leibo Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers? Brandon Sanderson Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case. Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway. Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Edited October 28, 2024 by alder24 4
Ashbringer he/him Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 26 minutes ago, The Sovereign said: We don't what? But yes, she certainly could have Enlightened/Corrupted other Radiant Spren. We know both from the books and WOBs that the Mistspren are at least willing to listen to what Sja-Anat is offering. Enlightening sentient Radiant spren seems to need to be a willing process. But, we’ve got evidence of partially-Enlightened Inkspren, so it could extend to other Orders. 3
The Sovereign Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 Yeah, I hadn't made the connection here that we've already seen Sja-Anat is Enlightening the Inkspren of the Oath Gates. I guess on my second point regarding Transportation, this would tip the scale more towards the Inkspren. 2
Ashbringer he/him Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 Another thought I had - ashspren. We’re missing some Dustbringers, and even unenlightened ashspren may be willing to be experimental with their bonds.
Elder Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) While I don’t doubt Sja-Anat’s ability to “enlighten” other Spren, her Mist Spren seem to have a particular bond with the Spiritual Realm… they’d probably make better guides for the Ghostbloods. Edited October 28, 2024 by Elder 2
bmcclure7 Posted October 28, 2024 Author Posted October 28, 2024 5 hours ago, Elder said: While I don’t doubt Sja-Anat’s ability to “enlighten” other Spren, her Mist Spren seem to have a particular bond with the Spiritual Realm… they’d probably make better guides for the Ghostbloods. Good point though of course we can’t know for certain since we only have one example of a corrupted mist spren . But certainly a high possibility. 1
Ashbringer he/him Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: Good point though of course we can’t know for certain since we only have one example of a corrupted mist spren . But certainly a high possibility. Two, I think. Glys and Tumi are both Enlightened (bound to Renarin and Rlain), which means we actually have more Enlightened Truthwatchers than normal ones. I'd thought that Tumi was meant for Mraize, at first. But apparently not so.
bmcclure7 Posted October 29, 2024 Author Posted October 29, 2024 8 hours ago, Ashbringer said: Two, I think. Glys and Tumi are both Enlightened (bound to Renarin and Rlain), which means we actually have more Enlightened Truthwatchers than normal ones. I'd thought that Tumi was meant for Mraize, at first. But apparently not so. I meant that we only have one example of a corrupted mist Spren with the void of illumination that grants access to the spiritual realm. We don’t know if tumi will have the void of illumination. It could easily have the void of regrowth which we have no idea about.
Kfish Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: I meant that we only have one example of a corrupted mist Spren with the void of illumination that grants access to the spiritual realm. We don’t know if tumi will have the void of illumination. It could easily have the void of regrowth which we have no idea about. I don't know if we have any evidence that the enlightened Spren can provide different powers than other enlightened Spren of the same order. Honestly, we've seen so little of truthwatchers we don't know how much being enlightened has changed Renarin's powers and we DO have evidence that a truth watcher in the past could see the future. That said, I think Adolin and Shallan in RoW showed us that even Honorspren may be willing to go to Odium's side. If they're willing to go to Odium's side then I don't see why they would say no to being enlightened. I think any and all Spren orders are up for grabs at this point. 2
bmcclure7 Posted October 29, 2024 Author Posted October 29, 2024 Just now, Kfish said: I don't know if we have any evidence that the enlightened Spren can provide different powers than other enlightened Spren of the same order. Honestly, we've seen so little of truthwatchers we don't know how much being enlightened has changed Renarin's powers and we DO have evidence that a truth watcher in the past could see the future. That said, I think Adolin and Shallan in RoW showed us that even Honorspren may be willing to go to Odium's side. If they're willing to go to Odium's side then I don't see why they would say no to being enlightened. I think any and all Spren orders are up for grabs at this point. It is a common theory that the truth watcher in the past could see the future, however it has been debunked by Brandon Sanderson himself. You’re right we don’t have any evidence that they give different powers, but we don’t have any evidence that they don’t either. We simply don’t have evidence because we only have one example. It appears from what’s happening to rinarin that he gets one surge and one void . In his case, he has the surge of regrowth and what I am calling for a lack of better term to void illumination. But without any other examples we can’t know if he is the standard. It could be Other corrupted truthwatchers have the surge illumination and the void of regrowth 1
Kfish Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said: It is a common theory that the truth watcher in the past could see the future, however it has been debunked by Brandon Sanderson himself. You’re right we don’t have any evidence that they give different powers, but we don’t have any evidence that they don’t either. We simply don’t have evidence because we only have one example. It appears from what’s happening to rinarin that he gets one surge and one void . In his case, he has the surge of regrowth and what I am calling for a lack of better term to void illumination. But without any other examples we can’t know if he is the standard. It could be Other corrupted truthwatchers have the surge illumination and the void of regrowth His illumination is still a Surge. I'm not sure where this "Void" is coming from. Also worth noting that Brandon has said their powers will be similar though Rlain's connections to the Rhythms may alter some things. I can't find the WOB saying the ancient truth watcher did not see the future, only that Renarin is the first to have an Enlightened Mistspren. Can you show me the WOB, please? 3
The Sovereign Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kfish said: His illumination is still a Surge. I'm not sure where this "Void" is coming from. Also worth noting that Brandon has said their powers will be similar though Rlain's connections to the Rhythms may alter some things. I can't find the WOB saying the ancient truth watcher did not see the future, only that Renarin is the first to have an Enlightened Mistspren. Can you show me the WOB, please? I could not find the Ancient Truthwatcher WoB either but here are a few of relevant WoBs: Quote Wyndlerunner So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed? Brandon Sanderson What an excellent question. Yes he is. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Quote TGJackass The Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are depicted separate from the other Orders in that neat little chart. Why is that? I get that the Bondsmiths are special, but why are the Truthwatchers beneath them, in the middle? And is there a reasoning behind how the other Orders are placed, beyond just what surge they share? Brandon Sanderson So, yes and originally I had a lot more with this chart that was going to be meaningful for the magic system and things like that. And it turns out this was way too complicated to work into the book. You can maybe see some of it in Way of Kings Prime. I can't remember how much of it's in there, but at the end of the day, when I was building it, I'm like, "I am... this is one of those times where I'm doing a little too much, getting too much into the weeds," so to speak. But you can, you will be able to... See, it's tricky because you're gonna be seeing a lot of Renarin version of Truthwatchers and less of other version of Truthwatchers. But let's say that Truthwatchers have some sort of abilities relating to Cognitive and Spiritual Realm set in a similar way to Bondsmiths, and because of that they were often kind of opposed but aligned, and the chart is a human construction trying to explain things—much as the same way that the Allomantic chart is—and because of that, they're responding to things that have happened, that are partially cultural partially, part of the magic and they built the charts, if that makes sense. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Quote SteelITriceps I'm going to make the assumption that Rlain will have the same basic powers as Renarin. Brandon Sanderson This is a RAFO for now, though you can assume basic similarities between their powers--but Rlain's deeper connection to the rhythms might tweak his powers somewhat. General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020) Edited October 29, 2024 by The Sovereign 2
alder24 Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 2 hours ago, Kfish said: His illumination is still a Surge. I'm not sure where this "Void" is coming from. Also worth noting that Brandon has said their powers will be similar though Rlain's connections to the Rhythms may alter some things. Well, it's not a Surge. Renarin is using the "Void" of Illumination from the Voidbinding chart. This has been confirmed by WoBs. Look at the topic linked in footnotes of the first WoB, where this is discussed further: Spoiler Argent Renarin, his visions of the future are they connected to one of his Surges? Both of them? Are they a side-effect of his order? Brandon Sanderson Umm... Argent Like I can kind of fit in the two of them... Brandon Sanderson Alright, how much of a spoiler do you want on this? Argent All of it. Brandon Sanderson *Incredulously* Really? Argent Is that even a question for me? Brandon Sanderson Do you want to know something secret that you then can't post? Argent *sighs* How-- Is it something that is going to come up in Book 3-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent --or later. Brandon Sanderson It comes up in Book 3. Argent I'll bear the burden. Brandon Sanderson You'll bear the burden meaning I can tell you? Argent I'm going to pause this actually... *Audio paused* Footnote: Argent and Brandon revealed some of the secret discussion here. Argent explained a bit more on the 17th Shard as well. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) Spoiler Argent Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent Is that what voidbinding is? Brandon Sanderson No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings. Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017) The name "Void" is a fan given name for Voidbinding abilities. Renarin has access to the normal Surge of Progression, which works just like Progression we've seen so far, but his Illumination is different, much different even from other Truthwatchers. This is because he doesn't use Surge of Illumination, he has the Voidbinding equivalent of it - the "Void" of Illumination, from the Voidbinding chart. Oh, and the WoB posted earlier by @The Sovereign might explain why Mraize and Iyatil can use their spren to guide them through SR and seems to also indicate that they has to be Enlightened Mistspren - Truthwatchers have some abilities related to SR, similar to Bondsmith abilities: Spoiler TGJackass The Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are depicted separate from the other Orders in that neat little chart. Why is that? I get that the Bondsmiths are special, but why are the Truthwatchers beneath them, in the middle? And is there a reasoning behind how the other Orders are placed, beyond just what surge they share? Brandon Sanderson So, yes and originally I had a lot more with this chart that was going to be meaningful for the magic system and things like that. And it turns out this was way too complicated to work into the book. You can maybe see some of it in Way of Kings Prime. I can't remember how much of it's in there, but at the end of the day, when I was building it, I'm like, "I am... this is one of those times where I'm doing a little too much, getting too much into the weeds," so to speak. But you can, you will be able to... See, it's tricky because you're gonna be seeing a lot of Renarin version of Truthwatchers and less of other version of Truthwatchers. But let's say that Truthwatchers have some sort of abilities relating to Cognitive and Spiritual Realm set in a similar way to Bondsmiths, and because of that they were often kind of opposed but aligned, and the chart is a human construction trying to explain things—much as the same way that the Allomantic chart is—and because of that, they're responding to things that have happened, that are partially cultural partially, part of the magic and they built the charts, if that makes sense. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) 2
elihaun Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 (edited) Reading the title, I thought you were going to suggest that Radiant (Shallan's alter ego) was a full-blooded ghostblood. That would be an interesting idea! Not just in the killing of Ialai, but imagine if she has been able to manifest physically for a while? she could have been working counter to what shallan/veil wanted the whole time, and since Radient does not need to be bound to shallans body, it would be VERY subtle. Also, does Radient ever use Pattern, or does she just use testament? could it be possible that she has oaths separate from Shallan? (reminds me of the Ted Dekker book 'Thr3e'. Not a great book, but a novel idea). As for the actual ideas, I think that the ghost bloods would want powers that could be 'masked' in other lands. Highspren/honor spren would work on scadrial, since they can pretend to be misborn (flying especially, but also the windrunners ability to use 'gravity' to fake coinshots with spren-coins), but truthwatchers or edgedancers would work well on Nalthis. I think they would try their best to pick spren based on how well they could hide on other planets. heck, a Truth watcher would be PERFECT on first of the sun due to their future sight. Edited October 29, 2024 by elihaun 1
bmcclure7 Posted October 29, 2024 Author Posted October 29, 2024 5 hours ago, Kfish said: His illumination is still a Surge. I'm not sure where this "Void" is coming from. Also worth noting that Brandon has said their powers will be similar though Rlain's connections to the Rhythms may alter some things. I can't find the WOB saying the ancient truth watcher did not see the future, only that Renarin is the first to have an Enlightened Mistspren. Can you show me the WOB, please? We know from Brandon Sanderson, that what Renarin does is half surge binding half void binding. We know from row that he regrown the same as all other truth watchers While his illumination (or at least what he thinks of as illumination behaves like a different if someone similar power different from the illumination of his other truthwatchers.
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