therunner he/him Posted October 27, 2024 Posted October 27, 2024 I am doing a re-read in preparation of WaT, and I noticed a few things regarding Stormlight, and enhancements it provides. Healing: No need to comment here I think, this is the most visible of enhancements. Strength: In discussions here and elsewhere, it is typically held that Stormlight does not enhance physical strength to superhuman levels (like Pewter). However, even in Way of Kings we can easily find evidence to the contrary. In prologue: Quote The Shardbearer grunted, dropping to one knee, raising a hand to his side. Szeth raised a foot to the man’s side and shoved him backward with a Stormlight-enhanced kick. The heavy Shardbearer crashed into the door of the king’s quarters, smashing it and falling partway into the room beyond. Plate weights at ~500 kg, and here Szeth kicks a Shardbearer through a door, specifically calling it Stormlight enhancend. This is certainly beyond human strength, Kaladin achieves similar feat by lashing dozens of times in WoR. At the end, Teft specifically calls out Stormlight as strengthening and enhancing Quote Teft had only a fragmentary recollection of the things his family had tried to teach him, but those memories all agreed. Stormlight did not grant skill. It could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, it invigorated. Kaladin slams butt of the spear hard enough to shatter both it, and Parshendi carapace helm (which is comparable to steel) Quote As that Parshendi fell, Kaladin pulled his spear free and slammed the end into a Parshendi head that had gotten too close. The butt of the spear shattered with a spray of wood, and the Parshendi’s carapace helm exploded. Shattering wood + destroying steel helmet with a strike is certainly beyond human strength. in WoR, Kaladin easily lifts Lopen while on Stormlight Quote Taking a deep breath, he picked up Lopen—the slender man was startlingly easy to lift, particularly with a measure of Stormlight still inside Kaladin’s veins. and later notes that Stormlight gives him extra strength and speed Quote and the extra speed and strength the Stormlight lent. Later in RoW, Kaladin matches Stormform in strength, and Stormform is noted to be stronger than Warform, which in turn is stronger than human. (don't have it on hand for citation, it is in the surgery room I think). I'd estimate that Stormlight puts human at 1.5-2x the amount of usual strength at minimum (based on Lopen lifting, matching Stormform), with short bursts even beyond that (shattering carapace, kicking Shardbearer). But without a doubt it does grant superhuman strength. Resilience of body: In prologue, Szeth withstands a punch from Shardbearer to the face. Quote Just as Szeth hit the helm a second time—shattering it—Gavilar punched with his off hand, slamming his gauntleted fist into Szeth’s face. Blinding light flashed in Szeth’s eyes, a counterpoint to the sudden agony that crashed across his face. Everything blurred, his vision fading. ... The blow would have killed an ordinary man. ... Blood streamed from the side of his face, and Stormlight rose from his skin, blinding his left eye. The Light. It would heal him, if it could. His jaw felt unhinged. Broken? He’d dropped his Shardblade. Shardplate enhances strength about 15x-20x, even grazing, held-back punch breaks ribs and organs (Moash to Kaladin in WoR). Here Szeth got punched right in the face, which should have basically went right through his head. Instead, it seems his brain was mostly intact, and he was healed rather fast (despite it being Honorblade healing). This suggests Stormlight helps withstand damage. Kaladin drops ~40 feet (12 meters) with little Stormlight and does not break bones Quote “If I leave the rope here, someone might spot it while crossing the bridge.” “So cut it free.” He looked at her, raising an eyebrow. “While dangling from it?” “You’ll be fine.” “That’s a forty-foot drop! I’d break bones at the very least.” ... He dropped in a rush, one hand still holding the sliced rope, stomach lurching with the jarring distress of falling. The bridge shot away as if rising, and Kaladin’s panicked mind immediately sent his eyes downward. This wasn’t beautiful. This was terrifying. It was horrible. He was going to die! ... He stood up straight. Lopen gaped. Kaladin felt an ache in his legs from hitting, but it was like that of having leaped four or five feet. This is before he learns Lashings, so it could not have been due to that (and the fall takes only 1.5 seconds). Additionally, it is not that they broke and healed, as Stormlight does not remove the pain (see WoR where Kaladin kicks Plate and shatters both legs). Again, this shows that Stormlight helps withstand damage, and to considerable degree. Enhanced reflexes: Kaladin notes that he dodges faster with Stormlight Quote Arrows sliced the air around him, dangerously close. But while infused with the Stormlight, his muscles reacted quickly. He dodged between arrows, then turned in the other direction, moving erratically. Increased speed: Szeth notes his speed increases when breathing in Stormlight Quote He took a deep breath as he ran, drawing in Stormlight from the lanterns. His body came alive with it, and his speed increased, his muscles bursting with energy. In WoR, Kaladin notes Stormlight grants him extra speed and strength Quote and the extra speed and strength the Stormlight lent. Generally then, Stormlight grants enhanced strength, speed, reflexes, resilience and healing, all boosted to superhuman levels. It also seemingly helps with endurance, however this is difficult to separate from the healing. The stormlight strength enhancement is likely in the ballpark of 1.5-2x strength, with peaks beyond that. (kicking Shardplate, matching Stormform in strength etc.) The stormlight speed and reflex enhancement is likely comparable to enhancement provided by Shardplate, as Kaladin can keep up with them. 7
Treamayne Posted October 27, 2024 Posted October 27, 2024 Thank you for the rundown and collected quotes. 2 hours ago, therunner said: it is typically held that Stormlight does not enhance physical strength to superhuman levels (like Pewter). However, even in Way of Kings we can easily find evidence to the contrary. I cannot recall anybody making that assertion. The only arguement I have seen is that Stormlight does not provide as much enhancement as Pewter - and that is only because of specificity vs generality, Stormlight does a lot - and therefore does not quite do it as well as an MOI that does one thing specifically (Pewter, especailly flared will be stronger - as per your comparison) but it definitely enhances all of those traits. Just as we see the Dor in an Elantrian (non-Reod) also enhances all of those traits (Raoden in Teoras is stronger and faster, able to match the base-enhanced Dahkor). But having it all laid out is a good thing and we can always link back to this post when the question arises again (and again, etc.)
alder24 Posted October 27, 2024 Posted October 27, 2024 6 hours ago, therunner said: Strength: In discussions here and elsewhere, it is typically held that Stormlight does not enhance physical strength to superhuman levels (like Pewter). However, even in Way of Kings we can easily find evidence to the contrary. The strength enhancement is a bit unclear. As you pointed out, there are moments where it seems Stormlight gives some boost to strength, on the other hand Kaladin in RoW specifically stated that it doesn't. RoW ch 39: Quote Kaladin shifted Teft on his shoulders, then strode after Rlain. Stormlight didn’t seem to give one much additional raw strength, but it did steady the limbs, repairing the muscles if they began to tear beneath strain. So he could bear Teft at a brisk jog, even without Lashing him. 1
Rorzikel Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 I like to look at it as six Red Bulls and the knowledge that if you punch a steel wall you won't need to go to the emergency room. Maybe it's not true superstrength, but it might as well be. 1
therunner he/him Posted October 28, 2024 Author Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) 18 hours ago, alder24 said: The strength enhancement is a bit unclear. As you pointed out, there are moments where it seems Stormlight gives some boost to strength, on the other hand Kaladin in RoW specifically stated that it doesn't. I am aware of that quote. I see two options: BS changed his mind and decided to downplay that part of Stormlight. Kaladin is so used to it (and so strong without it, thanks to Bridges) that he does not realize the strength enhancement it provides. I lean towards option two, because Kaladin in RoW matches Stormform in strength when grappling, and those are superhumanly strong. This is rather strong evidence that Kaladin is simply mistaken there. The quote does not actually say Stormlight does not provide strength, only "Stormlight didn’t seem to give one much additional raw strength". Adding what would be ~50% improvement to average man, to someone who is already very near peak human strength would not seem as much. However, either way it is clear that Stormlight does provide additional strength. 23 hours ago, Treamayne said: I cannot recall anybody making that assertion. The only arguement I have seen is that Stormlight does not provide as much enhancement as Pewter - and that is only because of specificity vs generality, Stormlight does a lot - and therefore does not quite do it as well as an MOI that does one thing specifically (Pewter, especailly flared will be stronger - as per your comparison) but it definitely enhances all of those traits. Just as we see the Dor in an Elantrian (non-Reod) also enhances all of those traits (Raoden in Teoras is stronger and faster, able to match the base-enhanced Dahkor). There were those statements, typically in the large RoW Scadrial vs Roshar thread ~3 years ago. In later Mistborn vs Radiant as well, though not as much as they were moderated to only Pewter being superior. Though you could still see people saying Mistborn burning Pewter would have general advantage in close quarters due to being stronger, faster and more dexterous than Radiant. This post is partly to show that the discrepancy might not be as large as some assume, and to organize this for my own sake as well. I'll note that I was personally surprised that Stormlight also seems to increase resiliency to injury, as that was not something typically discussed and noticed. Most assumed it was due to healing only. Edited October 28, 2024 by therunner 1
Treamayne Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 2 hours ago, therunner said: There were those statements, typically in the large RoW Scadrial vs Roshar thread ~3 years ago. In later Mistborn vs Radiant as well, though not as much as they were moderated to only Pewter being superior. That explains it - I avoid "vs" threads since I feel they provide nothing but bad feelings (results cannot be verified or even agreed-upon) IIRC, I posted once or twice in the Jedi one to point out the absurdity af trying to resolve such things when there were far to many factors being ignored in scenario. Not a fan of that kind of Forum drama - I would rather look up refrences and discuss known and unknown information that deal with contrived scenarios. My Apologies. 2
alder24 Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 4 hours ago, therunner said: Kaladin is so used to it (and so strong without it, thanks to Bridges) that he does not realize the strength enhancement it provides. If Kaladin is so strong without Stormlight, than with it he would be even stronger and would most definitely see the difference. 4 hours ago, therunner said: Kaladin in RoW matches Stormform in strength when grappling, and those are superhumanly strong. This is rather strong evidence that Kaladin is simply mistaken there. He didn't match him in strength, Kaladin stated the Regal was still stronger than he was. RoW ch 43: Quote Unfortunately, Kaladin hadn’t done a lot of wrestling. He knew enough to keep himself from being pinned easily, but the Regal was stronger than he was, and that carapace kept jabbing in surprising places and interfering with his holds. The Regal leveraged his superior weight and strength, twisting Kaladin around with a grunt. Yes, Kaladin caught his swinging arm earlier, but that's not enough to state he matched him in strength. 5 hours ago, therunner said: The quote does not actually say Stormlight does not provide strength, only "Stormlight didn’t seem to give one much additional raw strength". Adding what would be ~50% improvement to average man, to someone who is already very near peak human strength would not seem as much. Based on this quote, what Stormlight does is heal your muscles when they are pushed beyond their normal capabilities, allowing you to do more with the same strength.
therunner he/him Posted October 28, 2024 Author Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) 6 hours ago, Treamayne said: That explains it - I avoid "vs" threads since I feel they provide nothing but bad feelings (results cannot be verified or even agreed-upon) IIRC, I posted once or twice in the Jedi one to point out the absurdity af trying to resolve such things when there were far to many factors being ignored in scenario. Not a fan of that kind of Forum drama - I would rather look up refrences and discuss known and unknown information that deal with contrived scenarios. My Apologies. No need for apologies And fair enough, different strokes for different folks and all that. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, Kaladin caught his swinging arm earlier, but that's not enough to state he matched him in strength. If someone who is at least twice as strong as you swung at you with intent to hurt/kill, do you think you could catch that arm? Could a child catch an arm of adult? If someone swings at you, to catch it, you have to put in more force than they put in the swing. Him catching that arm (which surprises the Regal if I recall right) does require Kaladin to be in the same ballpark as the Regal. Still weaker sure, per the rest of the fight, but he must be able to compete at least a bit. Quote Based on this quote, what Stormlight does is heal your muscles when they are pushed beyond their normal capabilities, allowing you to do more with the same strength. No, that is not what it says. Kaladin directly does say that Stormlight does provide extra strength, just not too much (per his judgement) Quote Kaladin shifted Teft on his shoulders, then strode after Rlain. Stormlight didn’t seem to give one much additional raw strength, but it did steady the limbs, repairing the muscles if they began to tear beneath strain. So he could bear Teft at a brisk jog, even without Lashing him. Reparing the muscles is in addition to additional raw strength Stormlight provides. If it did not provide any strength, the sentence would read "Stormlight didn't seem to give one additional raw strength, but ...". The very fact he qualifies how much raw strength implies that it does provide some. Which is in line with evidence from all the other books. Edited October 28, 2024 by therunner
alder24 Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, therunner said: No, that is not what it says. Kaladin directly does say that Stormlight does provide extra strength, just not too much (per his judgement) Quote Kaladin shifted Teft on his shoulders, then strode after Rlain. Stormlight didn’t seem to give one much additional raw strength, but it did steady the limbs, repairing the muscles if they began to tear beneath strain. So he could bear Teft at a brisk jog, even without Lashing him. Reparing the muscles is in addition to additional raw strength Stormlight provides. If it did not provide any strength, the sentence would read "Stormlight didn't seem to give one additional raw strength, but ...". The very fact he qualifies how much raw strength implies that it does provide some. Which is in line with evidence from all the other books. It said "it didn't seem to give much" - whatever it was giving (if it was giving anything) was too small for Kaladin to distinguish it from effects of healing. Healing is the primary "source" of strength in this case. Stormlight might give something, but it's a small amount. Your previous estimate of 50% is way too big as that's a significant and noticeable improvement, I would expect it to give something around 10% at best. Healing provides the main boost to strength. Or Stormlight gives no additional strength as Kaladin doesn't know for sure. It just seems to not give much. Zero is not much as well. I'm not trying to argue that it gives nothing at all (but my previous post may sound like this), but what it gives isn't that much and healing is how Stormlight makes you stronger - based on that quote. As I said earlier, in books there were conflicting moments and statements about it. 1 hour ago, therunner said: which surprises the Regal if I recall right He wasn't, quote below. 1 hour ago, therunner said: If someone who is at least twice as strong as you swung at you with intent to hurt/kill, do you think you could catch that arm? Not at me, at Kaladin. Kaladin was carrying bridges for 100 days, he was fighting for years in the army, then as a Windrunner. He's exceptionally skilled in fighting, almost unnaturally so. He has the ability and skill needed to catch a swing of a stronger person early enough, before it gains too much momentum, especially if that swing isn't made at full force (which probably isn't as swinging a top-heavy weapon seems like a good way to lose your balance and your leg - but I don't know much about sword fighting). In this fight Kaladin was balanced, while the Fused wasn't - and balance is the key, it's even more important than raw strength. RoW ch 43: Quote Lirin grabbed Kaladin from behind. Kaladin stood quietly on that precipice. Balanced. The Regal leaped forward, swinging his axe. And Kaladin stepped off the edge. He shook free of his father’s grip and shoved him backward with one hand, then caught the Regal’s arm with his other before the axe could fall. Kaladin braced himself for the jolt of energy that shot through him at touching a stormform—he’d fought these before. It stunned him for a moment nonetheless, so he wasn’t ready to guard as the Regal cuffed him across the face, ripping his cheek with the barbed carapace on the back of his hand. Stormlight would heal that. Kaladin got his other hand up, preventing another punch while continuing to hold back the axe. The two struggled for a moment, then Kaladin managed to get the advantage, tipping their center of balance forward so he could twist and ram his shoulder into the Regal. Edited October 28, 2024 by alder24 2
Duxredux he/him Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 (edited) Just saying... if you're debating this for 3 years and hundreds if not thousands of words, just ask Brandon for a WoB. This doesn't seem like RAFO territory. Bridge Four consistently believes that they are not significantly stronger, even after Sigzil's gauntlet of tests complete with baselines to try to quantify and measure the extent that Stormlight and Lashings enhance the Windrunners. I'm going to just assume that the exception is in the specific scenario that seems to disprove it, rather than assuming Brandon is wrong or pulling a fast one on us. Yes, he totally would do that to us, but I don't see why this would be one of those times. I also have a hard time believing that no one in Dragonsteel has pointed it out if it is an error by SA4, considering his plethora of early readers includes members of 17th Shard who read debates like these, and have done so for years. With that Stormform scenario, as noted by alder24, Kaladin also was grabbing the Stormform's arm, with no further explanation for location. Was that the wrist, forearm, upper arm? Leverage will make a huge difference, particularly if he is using a fully extended arm to brace against the Stormform's upper arm as they are holding an axe above their head. Beyond that, has anyone pitched the idea that when Kaladin got electrocuted his muscles spasmed from the shock, considering it stunned him? In my opinion, there's enough uncertainty in the factors of this scenario that I would lean towards what is repeatedly stated as what the characters believe. Edited October 29, 2024 by Duxredux 3
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 30 minutes ago, Duxredux said: Just saying... if you're debating this for 3 years and hundreds if not thousands of words, just ask Brandon for a WoB. This doesn't seem like RAFO territory. How do we do that again? I've got a few questions I don't think are RAFO worthy, but would be useful for figuring stuff out.
Treamayne Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Duxredux said: just ask Brandon for a WoB And that's part of the problem. There are many here who will never have a chance to ask for a WoB because we aren't on the right internet accounts, cannot stream and/or cannot attend live appearences (Cons or signings) - so our only hope is asking things here on the forums (usually here) and praying that somebody, at some future opportunity, will ask our question (or something similar). Or, in a very distant hope, maybe somebody Dragonsteel will take AMA questions from the forum, but I doubt it. We don't get enough traffic for that kind of interaction or cnosideration. Edited October 29, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG
therunner he/him Posted October 29, 2024 Author Posted October 29, 2024 8 hours ago, alder24 said: It said "it didn't seem to give much" - whatever it was giving (if it was giving anything) was too small for Kaladin to distinguish it from effects of healing. If it "does not give much additional strength" the clear implication (supported by all the other evidence in the OP) is that it does give something. Kaladin clearly does separate it from healing in the quote. Quote Healing is the primary "source" of strength in this case. ... Healing provides the main boost to strength. Source on this? Because e.g. kicking over Shardbearer or shattering steel is not something merely 'healing' would let you do. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Stormlight might give something, but it's a small amount. Your previous estimate of 50% is way too big as that's a significant and noticeable improvement, I would expect it to give something around 10% at best. 10% is insufficient to for example, let Szeth kick over Shardbearer through doors. Kaladin does something similar while Lashing himself dozens of times, which is equivalent to falling far more than 12 meters at least (since Kaladin did not break bones when falling from 12 meters, and here shattered both legs). Show me a grown man who can kick with the force of grown man falling 12 meters. As such, the strength improvement has to be reasonable. Quote Or Stormlight gives no additional strength as Kaladin doesn't know for sure. It just seems to not give much. Zero is not much as well. That cannot be the case, as the rest of the evidence shows: TWoK: Szeth kicking over Shardbearer (over 500 kg), with explicitly 'Stormlight-enhanced' kick. Teft noting that all records agree that Stormlight strenghtens. Kaladin noting improved speed and strength. Kaladin literally shattering hardened wood and steel-like carapace. WoR: Kaladin noting that Lopen feels lighter to lift when holding Stormlight. (which would not be the case if Stormlight only let you exert muscles more). Kaladin noting after fight Lopen, Rock and Sigzil that instead of using Lashings, it would have been easier for him to fight the only with his Stormlight enhanced speed and strength. O: Bridge 4 sprints with the bridge the entire distance to Rock's families caravan, is effectively throwing the bridge across chasms, and the bridge is noted 'light as reed' (can be partially discounted as emotional state as well). Kaladin notes that Rock pulling Shardbow (intended for Shardbearer 15x-20x as strong as human) could not be done with just Stormlight enhanced strength, as it does not improve strength 'vastly.' (from this we can conclude that "vastly"for Kaladin is Shardbearer-level increase in strength, so mere 50% increase could be 'small' increase it to him). RoW: Kaladin lifting Warform in Hearthstone, noting his increased strength. Venli noting she could use Stormlight to strengthen herself, to better keep up with Stormform. Kaladin in RoW, when under influence of the Tower (which explicitly reduces effect of Stormlight) carrying Teft (noting additional strength) and grappling with Stormform (which is stronger than Warform, already stated to be about twice as strong as human). Adolin explicitly noting superhuman strength of Radiants. There is more evidence that Stormlight provides strength boost than there is that it does not (which is zero evidence). Quote I'm not trying to argue that it gives nothing at all (but my previous post may sound like this), but what it gives isn't that much and healing is how Stormlight makes you stronger - based on that quote. As I said earlier, in books there were conflicting moments and statements about it. I'd say the only conflicting is how much strength Stormlight provides, evidence is clear that it is some, and it cannot be accounted to only healing. Again, if healing was the sole method of strength enhancement, Lopen would not feel lighter to Kaladin, since all Stormlight would do is let Kaladin exert himself more. And mere 10% boost would not explain how Kaladin can completely destroy hardened wood and steel like carapace, or Szeth can kick over Shardbearer. Quote He wasn't, quote below. Fair enough, thank you for the quote. I'll note few additional things for that scene, and why we should not take it as the baseline scenario Kaladin at that point is weakened by the Tower, which as we later learn explicitly reduces benefits of holding Stormlight (Kaladin for example heals much slower). As such, any strength boost coming from healing alone would be much diminished. As such, any direct strength boost from Stormlight would be weakened as well. So when Kaladin thinks this Quote Stormlight didn’t seem to give one much additional raw strength, but it did steady the limbs, repairing the muscles if they began to tear beneath strain. So he could bear Teft at a brisk jog, even without Lashing him. this is while he is actively weakened compared to baseline. Quote Not at me, at Kaladin. Kaladin was carrying bridges for 100 days, he was fighting for years in the army, then as a Windrunner. He's exceptionally skilled in fighting, almost unnaturally so. He has the ability and skill needed to catch a swing of a stronger person early enough, before it gains too much momentum, especially if that swing isn't made at full force (which probably isn't as swinging a top-heavy weapon seems like a good way to lose your balance and your leg - but I don't know much about sword fighting). If Kaladin is less than half as strong as Stormform, skill alone won't do much. E.g. Stormform could simply overpower him after catching the swing. And note that he does not simply stop the swing and then lets go, he holds the Stormform hand and than blocks a second hand and Stormform struggles with him while Kaladin keeps holding that axe hand Quote Kaladin got his other hand up, preventing another punch while continuing to hold back the axe. The two struggled for a moment, then Kaladin managed to get the advantage, tipping their center of balance forward so he could twist and ram his shoulder into the Regal. So what happens is, Kaladin catches first one hand, then blocks two punches of Stormform, and then they struggle all the while Kaladin is holding back the axe. There are only two options: One, Stormform for whatever reason did not choose to press advantage (i.e. his axe), despite being over twice as strong. Two, Kaladin is in the same strength ball park as Stormform. I think option one is far less likely, which leaves us with the conclusion that Kaladin's strength is in fact enhanced., which is consistent with numerous evidence from both rest of the book, and rest of the series. I'll also note that earlier in the RoW, we have these instances "Strengthened by the Light, Kaladin grabbed the soldier and lifted him up." (Kaladin explicitly notes he is strengthened) pg.125 "As a Radiant, she could have used Stormlight to strengthen her. But that would have been far too dangerous. She would have to be satisfied with the strength her Regal form gave her. Certainly she was better off than an average singer would have been. The rest of the force, however—in stormform—was stronger than she was, and Raboniel kept an aggressive pace." Venli notes that using Stormlight would make her stronger compared to her Regal form, and so implies it would bring her closer to strength of Stormform. pg.538 "He could not train himself to the level of a Radiant; they could heal from wounds and strike with supernatural grace and strength. " Adolin notes that Radiants have supernatural strength and grace (something he is in good position to judge as trained duelist and soldier) pg. 1006 So again and again, across all the books so far, Radiants are noted to have increased (and indeed supernatural) strength. If it was mere 10% increase, that would not be noticeable enough to be called 'supernatural'. I don't know what more evidence to use, since this point is repeated across all the books, starting with the very first prologue. To sum up: Kaladin carrying Teft (and grappling with Stormform) is while he is actively weakened by the Tower, which diminishes his healing (and likely other benefits of Stormlight). There are numerous instances across all books, were Stormlight is noted to strengthen the user, and indeed Radiant holding Stormlight performs feats of strength beyond that of human. This level of strength is occasionally called to be supernatural, and indeed most other feats in fact suggest that the increase is relatively considerable, letting user exert great force (to kick Shardbearers, shatter steel-like material, narrow the gap to explicitly super-human Stormform), ruling out a mostly small (10%) increase. 4 hours ago, Duxredux said: Just saying... if you're debating this for 3 years and hundreds if not thousands of words, just ask Brandon for a WoB. This doesn't seem like RAFO territory. With that Stormform scenario, as noted by alder24, Kaladin also was grabbing the Stormform's arm, with no further explanation for location. Was that the wrist, forearm, upper arm? Leverage will make a huge difference, particularly if he is using a fully extended arm to brace against the Stormform's upper arm as they are holding an axe above their head. Beyond that, has anyone pitched the idea that when Kaladin got electrocuted his muscles spasmed from the shock, considering it stunned him? In my opinion, there's enough uncertainty in the factors of this scenario that I would lean towards what is repeatedly stated as what the characters believe. As @Treamayne notes, for most us that is not an option. Over the ~7 years of reading Sanderson, I had a single chance to ask for a WoB. (which I used to ask if Lightweaving is solely PR phenomenon, or if it affects other Realms). Quote Bridge Four consistently believes that they are not significantly stronger, even after Sigzil's gauntlet of tests complete with baselines to try to quantify and measure the extent that Stormlight and Lashings enhance the Windrunners. I'm going to just assume that the exception is in the specific scenario that seems to disprove it, rather than assuming Brandon is wrong or pulling a fast one on us. Yes, he totally would do that to us, but I don't see why this would be one of those times. I also have a hard time believing that no one in Dragonsteel has pointed it out if it is an error by SA4, considering his plethora of early readers includes members of 17th Shard who read debates like these, and have done so for years. They in fact primarily focused on the Lashings, not Stormlight enhancements alone. In WoR, the test scene is only about Lashings (and in fact Kaladin notes that Lopen feels lighter when he holds Stormlight, again being evidence for Stormlight strengtening). Then they fight, and after that Kaladin again notes about "extra speed and strength Stormlight lent", so again the book explicitly tells us Stormlight makes user stronger. In Oathbringer, they again don't test strength, only endurance while carrying items across ~mile. Considering the fact that every single book shows and tells us that Stormlight makes the user stronger, I think the simplest explanation is that Stormlight does make user stronger. It is not Brandon pulling fast one, if he is telling us that from the very first chapter. 2
alder24 Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 16 hours ago, therunner said: If it "does not give much additional strength" the clear implication (supported by all the other evidence in the OP) is that it does give something. Kaladin clearly does separate it from healing in the quote. "Stormlight didn’t seem to give one much additional raw strength" - seem is the keyword here. 16 hours ago, therunner said: Source on this? Because e.g. kicking over Shardbearer or shattering steel is not something merely 'healing' would let you do. That very quote we're constantly referencing... I'm discussing ONLY that quote and that chapter, nothing else. That's why I said we have conflicting examples. 16 hours ago, therunner said: 10% is insufficient to for example, let Szeth kick over Shardbearer through doors. Kaladin does something similar while Lashing himself dozens of times, which is equivalent to falling far more than 12 meters at least (since Kaladin did not break bones when falling from 12 meters, and here shattered both legs). Those situations are not comparable in the slightest. Kaladin did significant damage to several sections of a plate, Szeth didn't. Szeth kicked Gavilar, who was already down on one knee, due to a powerful Shardblade strike he just received to the side and that kick made him fall onto the door, which was crushed by the sheer weight of the Shardplate. He didn't fly through the room. Gavilar was on his knee, out of balance, it would not require that much strength to push him further out of his balance and make him fall and it's certainly not comparable to what Kaladin did. I do not want to question if Szeth was stronger due to Stormlight or not, just that those situations are not comparable and kicking Gavilar in his state would not require as much strength as you suggest. 16 hours ago, therunner said: There is more evidence that Stormlight provides strength boost than there is that it does not I do agree with you. I appreciate the amount of examples you've given in this post. 16 hours ago, therunner said: Kaladin at that point is weakened by the Tower, which as we later learn explicitly reduces benefits of holding Stormlight (Kaladin for example heals much slower). That's irrelevant in the context of the quote. Kaladin made a statement based on his past experience, how he thinks Stormlight affects his strength in general, not in that very moment. He didn't notice any unusual reduction of strength, nor any other effects of the Tower suppression on enhancements given by Stormlight. And as @Duxredux said, Kaladin's statement isn't just some random thought, it's fact based on tests and measurements done over the past year and a half with Sigzil - this is an important quote, which shouldn't be disregarded just because. I don't remember if Stormlight effects were at first affected by the suppression fabrial - they were after later notes were destroyed, but I don't remember if the activation of the fabrial itself made Stormlight weaker and I don't see anything in this and next chapter that said Sotrmlight itself was weaker than normally. 16 hours ago, therunner said: If Kaladin is less than half as strong as Stormform, skill alone won't do much. E.g. Stormform could simply overpower him after catching the swing. And note that he does not simply stop the swing and then lets go, he holds the Stormform hand and than blocks a second hand and Stormform struggles with him while Kaladin keeps holding that axe hand Skill matters much more in a fight than brute strength. Yes, Kaladin stopped and held Regal's arm, but they struggled - the arm of the Stormform wasn't just frozen in place, they were struggling, pushing and pulling, moving their arms around etc. Kaladin held that arm and prevented it from swinging again. This absolutely can be done against a stronger opponent. 16 hours ago, therunner said: If it was mere 10% increase, that would not be noticeable enough to be called 'supernatural'. I'm not saying that it's just 10% or nothing at all, I'm saying that based on that one quote, Stormlight can add raw strength in small amount (like 10%), but the healing that repairs tearing muscles allow you to push yourself beyond normal limits and can account for what would seem like additional strength, adding to what raw strength was given by Stormlight. So it could be like 30% in total, 20% from healing, 10% from additional raw strength. But again, that's only based on that single quote and I'm trying to argue how Stormlight is making you stronger. I'm thinking in that quote Brandon tried to explain by what mechanism Stormlight is giving you strength, because it gives you strength even if that's just an illusion of healing, it allows you to do something you can't do without it. Is this correct? Can repairing tears in muscles allow you to push that much beyond your normal strength? I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but the quote implies that's how Stormlight works. 1
StanLemon Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 (edited) I've long felt that Stormlight enhancements to strength are presented more like adrenaline. It pushes the body to the maximum strength that it can output constantly and that the problems that come with that normally are instantly healed by the Stormlight allowing 100% of your strength 100% of the time as long as you have Stormlight to burn. That would seem supernatural compared to what people naturally would expect. Edited October 29, 2024 by StanLemon 2
Duxredux he/him Posted October 29, 2024 Posted October 29, 2024 23 minutes ago, StanLemon said: I've long felt that Stormlight enhancements to strength are presented more like adrenaline. It pushes the body to the maximum strength that it can output constantly and that the problems that come with that normally are instantly healed by the Stormlight allowing 100% of your strength 100% of the time as long as you have Stormlight to burn. That would seem supernatural compared to what people naturally would expect. So... to use weight lifting terminology, it's as if your 1 repetition max (1RM) can suddenly be pumped out continuously? The maximum strength isn't actually raised, but it's called a 1 rep max for a reason because of how much energy it uses in a single motion - internet had people who ended up sore and exhausted for up to 3 days after setting their 1RM. I'm not a weightlifter, but the National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM) 1RM calculator on the internet suggests that if someone can bench press 200 lbs (90.7 kg) for 10 reps, they could potentially do a 1RM of 265 lbs (120.2 kg). That's 32.5% higher than a repeatable lift. With Stormlight healing and directly fueling oxygen and caloric needs to allow someone to work at that peak strength continuously, that seems plausible. I'd agree that with the perceived result is that yes, Stormlight can let you hit harder and faster, but the mechanism may not be just straight force enhancement. As an addendum, while looking up stuff about bench presses, the world record has a couple of major categories because specialized shirts that stabilized the shoulders were invented and allowed for nearly double the record without equipment. The record without is a bit over 700 lbs in a drug-tested competition lift, the current record with a shirt and not with a drug-test is 1,401 lbs. It's been noted that Renarin has abnormally fast healing considering he basically ignored getting squashed by a Thunderclast, but Stormlight healing may be able to stabilize some of the smaller muscles, tendons, and ligaments. For the record, since it hasn't been posted here yet as far as I've seen, per WoB, A-Pewter roughly doubles strength at a regular burn, triples at a flare. Spoiler Sandastron I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring. Brandon Sanderson Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning? Sandastron Yes. Brandon Sanderson Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly. Sandastron Double your strength? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that. Sandastron So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Flaring would go higher. Sandastron Would it be like triple? Brandon Sanderson Maybe like triple. Sandastron Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple. Brandon Sanderson Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car. Sandastron Right, exactly. Brandon Sanderson You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch. Sandastron Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability? Brandon Sanderson I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it. Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016) 22 hours ago, Treamayne said: And that's part of the problem. There are many here who will never have a chance to ask for a WoB because we aren't on the right internet accounts, cannot stream and/or cannot attend live appearences (Cons or signings) - so our only hope is asking things here on the forums (usually here) and praying that somebody, at some future opportunity, will ask our question (or something similar). Or, in a very distant hope, maybe somebody Dragonsteel will take AMA questions from the forum, but I doubt it. We don't get enough traffic for that kind of interaction or cnosideration. Point, I retract that suggestion, though I wouldn't discount someone from Dragonsteel throwing us a bone if they knew how long it has been discussed for. 4
Treamayne Posted October 30, 2024 Posted October 30, 2024 37 minutes ago, Duxredux said: Point, I retract that suggestion, though I wouldn't discount someone from Dragonsteel throwing us a bone if they knew how long it has been discussed for. I apologize if it seemed your suggestion was without merit - the point I was hoping to make was not that you should not suggest "ask during an AMA/signing/etc." it was so others that may read this know "hey if this interests me, these other people will never get to ask the question, so maybe I can if I get a chance to do so." The Criticlal problem is, of course, this was previously abused - and so is now frowned upon (which feels, from some perspecitves, like another way of saying "have-nots shall not be allowed to get questions answered" - I know in my head that is not the reality, but it feels in my heart like they are saying "hey, if you can't attend because money, life, etc. then - tough luck, you can't have others ask for you") Spoiler Sharing Questions This topic comes up pretty much every tour, so I figured I'd address it here. We here, in the 17th Shard, tend to be a little bit on the obsessive side. We want to know more, we ask a lot of questions. Most of the time that's a good thing. Most of the time Brandon is happy his fans obsess over his books. Sometimes some of us go too far though. In our quest of getting more and more answers, some people inevitably arrive at the idea of... utilizing the attendees who don't have questions, kicking around the idea of printing questions and handing them out. Something like this is extremely bad form. Brandon already doesn't like it when people just grab questions from the Ultimate List; going to him with a question you were handed earlier is much worse. One of the reasons Brandon answers so many questions is because all, or at least most of them are things his fans are personally interested in. It's why some of us maintain our own lists these days. The moment it starts looking like attendees are treating him like a WoB vending machine, he'll clam up, maybe forever. Don't be that guy. Of course situations where you are asking a question on behalf of a friend or family member who couldn't make it to the event, that's completely fine. So, the only recourse is to discuss the questions we have, and hope that somebody with access will also find the questions interesting and ask because they also want to know. I'm sorry everybody for the digression </rant>
Light In the Darkness Posted October 30, 2024 Posted October 30, 2024 9 hours ago, alder24 said: That's irrelevant in the context of the quote. Kaladin made a statement based on his past experience, how he thinks Stormlight affects his strength in general, not in that very moment. So, IIRC it does matter a lot. Teft was just knocked out by the influence of the repression fabrial (which was activated before the defense one with nodes). If Kaladin breathed in the light immediately before the sentence we keep quoting, which is I think how the scene goes, the way he says this could very easily be him remarking on the odd situation with his stormlight. I’ve always read this as him saying “The stormlight he just acquired didn’t seem to be giving him as much strength as usual, but at least it would help stabilize his muscles via healing, since that seemed to be working.” He’s already acknowledged the weird situation, so an additional oddness with stormlight would be important to document to the audience but not necessarily for him to react to. Additionally, all the quotes that imply that stormlight doesn’t grant additional raw strength come from this time while Kal is in the tower, suppressed, from what I’ve seen on this discussion and what I remember from reading. 9 hours ago, StanLemon said: I've long felt that Stormlight enhancements to strength are presented more like adrenaline. It pushes the body to the maximum strength that it can output constantly and that the problems that come with that normally are instantly healed by the Stormlight allowing 100% of your strength 100% of the time as long as you have Stormlight to burn. That would seem supernatural compared to what people naturally would expect. I do agree a lot with this, though. This is something of what the other bonuses resemble too - faster reflexes, more precise and flawless execution of combat maneuvers, increased energy, faster movement, etc. Under intense emotional duress, we do see people whose bodies essentially forget to impose the limits they normally do to protect us from damaging ourselves, so we see people in the real world who are untrained and desperate able to lift cars, at seemingly random moments and with very low reproducibility. If the stormlight allowed a state like that to be essentially your 1-rep-max, with 100% or more of what you would call your “natural strength” being available constantly (as described above), it probably would reproduce the same effect as if stormlight gave a sizable increase in real strength. Thus, the debate becomes one over terminology: what do you call raw strength? Any way it’s put, though, the otutward effect seems to be significant super strength, whether from a combination of damage resistance, healing, and deactivating normal bodily restrictions, or actually increasing the “raw strength” of your muscle mass. The only difference is choosing how literally you interpret the quote from RoW and how much you put on the Tower’s suppressor. IMO at least. 1
therunner he/him Posted October 30, 2024 Author Posted October 30, 2024 (edited) 9 hours ago, alder24 said: Those situations are not comparable in the slightest. Kaladin did significant damage to several sections of a plate, Szeth didn't. Szeth kicked Gavilar, who was already down on one knee, due to a powerful Shardblade strike he just received to the side and that kick made him fall onto the door, which was crushed by the sheer weight of the Shardplate. He didn't fly through the room. Gavilar was on his knee, out of balance, it would not require that much strength to push him further out of his balance and make him fall and it's certainly not comparable to what Kaladin did. I do not want to question if Szeth was stronger due to Stormlight or not, just that those situations are not comparable and kicking Gavilar in his state would not require as much strength as you suggest. True, however the mere fact of kicking over the plate does require more than human strength. And Kaladin effectively 'fell' much further than 12 meters, since he broke his legs. The 12 meters is distance we know Radiant can fall without breaking legs (if they fall right), and so I used it as point of comparison for how much strength Szeth could exert with his legs. Quote I do agree with you. I appreciate the amount of examples you've given in this post. Thank you. Quote That's irrelevant in the context of the quote. Kaladin made a statement based on his past experience, how he thinks Stormlight affects his strength in general, not in that very moment. He didn't notice any unusual reduction of strength, nor any other effects of the Tower suppression on enhancements given by Stormlight. He didn't notice issues with healing until later on, but they were there. Same way, he might not have noticed strength being reduced. Quote And as @Duxredux said, Kaladin's statement isn't just some random thought, it's fact based on tests and measurements done over the past year and a half with Sigzil - this is an important quote, which shouldn't be disregarded just because. No test we see tested strength enhancement, and frankly Kaladin pays little attention to the quantitative part of testing anyway (only Lopen bothers to keep count with Sigzil for example). So I don't think his thought in the middle of chaotic scenario is as precise as you are making it out to be. Similarly, why do you disregard every other piece of evidence, in favor of this single quote? Kaladin and other state on numerous occasions that Stormlight does grant enhanced strength, one that is explicitly supernatural. Quote I don't remember if Stormlight effects were at first affected by the suppression fabrial - they were after later notes were destroyed, but I don't remember if the activation of the fabrial itself made Stormlight weaker and I don't see anything in this and next chapter that said Sotrmlight itself was weaker than normally. It got progressively worse as nodes got destroyed, so the effect gradually increased. It is reasonable to assume that all effects were there at first as well, just on smaller scale than later on. Quote Skill matters much more in a fight than brute strength. Yes, Kaladin stopped and held Regal's arm, but they struggled - the arm of the Stormform wasn't just frozen in place, they were struggling, pushing and pulling, moving their arms around etc. Kaladin held that arm and prevented it from swinging again. This absolutely can be done against a stronger opponent. He held that arm with a single arm of his own, that requires strengths to be comparable, not being half as strong. Kaladin is also self-described as not particularly good at grappling, so this is not like they are fighting with spears, were Kaladin would have advantage. While skill does matter, so does strength, that is why we have weight categories for combat sports, and someone who is twice as strong would simply steamroll their opponent. As a simple example, average man is circa 30% stronger than average woman. If they are similarly trained, the woman does not stand a chance in grappling fight. And that is just 30% difference in strength, now triple that difference. Simply put, Kaladin could not do what he did if Stormform is twice as strong as he is, hence his strength must be enhanced (like books state it is). Quote I'm not saying that it's just 10% or nothing at all, I'm saying that based on that one quote, Stormlight can add raw strength in small amount (like 10%), but the healing that repairs tearing muscles allow you to push yourself beyond normal limits and can account for what would seem like additional strength, adding to what raw strength was given by Stormlight. So it could be like 30% in total, 20% from healing, 10% from additional raw strength. Why are you focusing on just that one quote thought, when there are multiple other instances? Again, healing cannot account for all of the examples from the books, e.g. why would Lopen feel lighter to Kaladin? If he feels lighter to him, it is because he must be stronger than without Stormlight, and enough that it is noticeable. If it was healing, all it would let him do is exert himself more, which would not lead to Lopen feeling lighter. Quote I'm trying to argue how Stormlight is making you stronger. I'm thinking in that quote Brandon tried to explain by what mechanism Stormlight is giving you strength, because it gives you strength even if that's just an illusion of healing, it allows you to do something you can't do without it. And I disagree, because from TSM we know the mechanism, that merely holding enough Investiture increases your physical attributes. Quote As long as he maintained certain levels, his body could do exceptional things. Each cost a tiny bit of Investiture, but that cost was minimal—so long as he kept his thresholds ... Nomad forced his eyes open and ripped his right hand out of the manacle, his supernatural strength shattering the thumb and tearing the skin along the sides of his hand. ... Nomad, you’re dangerously low on Investiture, Auxiliary said. You’re going to start dipping beneath five percent if you need much more healing. It will weaken you, and remove many of your endurance and strength enhancements. So holding Investiture makes you stronger, and Nomad later uses sunlight to get Invested a bit, and Aux compares sunlight on Canticle to Stormlight as source of Investiture. And this strength enhancement is separate from healing. As such, we can conclude that merely holding Stormlight means that Radiants are more Invested, hence they should be getting those enhancements, which is supported by evidence we see in books. So we do have mechanism for that. They are getting all the other enhancements (speed, reflexes, resilience, endurance) why would strength be exception? Quote Is this correct? Can repairing tears in muscles allow you to push that much beyond your normal strength? I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but the quote implies that's how Stormlight works. It could, but the issue is that it would not lead to you feeling stronger, it would just let you exert yourself more. Lopen feels lighter to Kaladin, which means Kaladin must be stronger as whole. 9 hours ago, StanLemon said: I've long felt that Stormlight enhancements to strength are presented more like adrenaline. It pushes the body to the maximum strength that it can output constantly and that the problems that come with that normally are instantly healed by the Stormlight allowing 100% of your strength 100% of the time as long as you have Stormlight to burn. That would seem supernatural compared to what people naturally would expect. I used to think that too, but it is not consistent with observations. One, Lopen feels lighter to Kaladin, which does not make sense if he is just exerting himself more. Two, if Stormlight suddenly ran out mid fight/training, they should be left with rather bad damage to their muscles, which does not seem to be the case. And three, Stormlight does not stop pain, and repeatedly tearing your muscles would hurt, and no one notes that. So I think that: Holding Stormlight enhances your strength (per the universal mechanism described in TSM). This would be 'minor' improvement, but still considerable enough to be noticed, hence my estimate of 50%. It would explain all the instances talking about improved strength from Kaladin, Venli and Adolin. Stormlight healing in addition lets you push yourself even beyond that for short moments (adrenaline-like effect). This would explain the more extreme effects, like Kaladin shattering haft of spear and exploding the carapace helmet (which is comparable to steel in strength). Edited October 30, 2024 by therunner 1
StanLemon Posted October 30, 2024 Posted October 30, 2024 (edited) 12 hours ago, therunner said: I used to think that too, but it is not consistent with observations. One, Lopen feels lighter to Kaladin, which does not make sense if he is just exerting himself more. This phenomenon actually happens when people have a lot of oxygen flow in their muscles. A common thing that happens to people post adrenaline high or post weightlifting is a sensation that things don't weigh as much as normal. 12 hours ago, therunner said: Two, if Stormlight suddenly ran out mid fight/training, they should be left with rather bad damage to their muscles, which does not seem to be the case. And three, Stormlight does not stop pain, and repeatedly tearing your muscles would hurt, and no one notes that. Not necessarily. First of all, Stormlight healing is quick, so it probably takes less than a second to heal micro tears in the muscles. And we know that Stormlight healing makes the pain go away as it's healed. This leads to my second point. Other than initial the burn of exertion, most people don't really feel the pain from muscle exertion until well after. That's why it's so common that people are sore the day after a workout. With the near instantaneous healing from Stormlight there wouldn't be much in the way of pain. Even if a Surgebinder runs out of Stormlight, they likely have already had the strained muscles healed Edit: Not to say you don't have a lot of good arguments, it's just that based on character comments and the adrenaline like nature of Stormlight, it seems to me that it's not a supernatural increase in strength but just Stormlight's ability to push the body to it's limits and keep it there. Edited October 30, 2024 by StanLemon 1
Light In the Darkness Posted October 30, 2024 Posted October 30, 2024 2 hours ago, StanLemon said: This phenomenon actually happens when people have a lot of oxygen flow in their muscles. A common thing that happens to people post adrenaline high or post weightlifting is a sensation that things don't weigh as much as normal. This is important. The perception of a thing's weight is related to both your muscle strength/mass and by how much effort/exertion/strain you put into it. If Stormlight is allowing 100% output (or more; what we perceive as 100% could be less because our bodies don't really ever let us do 100% output because it would likely break things) 100% of the time, plus some occasionally, then it probably reduces the strain your body feels when doing anything. This is the same reason that stimulants, like coffee, are so common and popular; they make everything feel easier, even though you haven't gained any real capacity, because you have more energy with which to act. Any given task takes up a lower percent of your available energy than normal, so it would seem and feel easier, whether it be physical or mental work. The additional healing in microtears that the Stormlight would provide would amplify this effect and perception significantly, as the pain at any given time from microtears is going to be proportional to their number, meaning that if Stormlight is working fast, the pain from the tear starting will still happen, but the pain from them remaining would be nearly non-existent, and it would never build-up until the damage comes faster than the Stormlight can fix it. Combined, the increased source of energy, stimulant effect reducing perception- and physically-created barriers to strength expression, and healing for micro-damage would have the effect of creating superhuman strength: things feel lighter to you, you can do things easier, faster, and harder than without, and you barrel through obstacles that should kill you. This micro-healing piece of Stormlight is actually impressively relevant here, along with the adrenaline-like central nervous system stimulant effects of Stormlight. Investiture in general should have a similar effect, but when it's less prone to moving/leaking, aka it isn't a gas, then it probably doesn't produce the urge to act quite as strongly as Stormlight seems to, while still providing the healing and super-human abilities that we see in the books. Given all that, though, it would be functionally indistinguishable from just having 50% more strength plus micro-healing &c. The sentence that we've been debating seems to be more an explanation of why he proceeded to carry Teft, someone about his size, at a brisk jog. Dunno about any of you, but I couldn't carry around an extra body weight at a brisk jog for very long, let alone someone who weighs as much more than me as Kaladin and Teft do, and let alone for nearly a mile, which I believe is what he did. That still sounds a bit like super-strength, though dampened from what we normally see with this effect due to the Tower's suppressor. Essentially, it would look and behave like super-strength either way, probably in much the same way as A!pewter, so a measurement of "how much stronger are you" would probably turn up the same results either way. The perception will just be different. 3
StanLemon Posted October 30, 2024 Posted October 30, 2024 I've got to say though, it's nice to have this discussion outside a VS thread. Thanks @therunner for starting it. Another reason I prefer the adrenaline like hypothesis is I find it to just be a more interesting explanation personally. 2
therunner he/him Posted October 31, 2024 Author Posted October 31, 2024 (edited) 14 hours ago, StanLemon said: This phenomenon actually happens when people have a lot of oxygen flow in their muscles. A common thing that happens to people post adrenaline high or post weightlifting is a sensation that things don't weigh as much as normal. Huh, TIL. Thanks, I was not aware of that, useful to know. Quote Not necessarily. First of all, Stormlight healing is quick, so it probably takes less than a second to heal micro tears in the muscles. And we know that Stormlight healing makes the pain go away as it's healed. This leads to my second point. Other than initial the burn of exertion, most people don't really feel the pain from muscle exertion until well after. That is why I mentioned that it would happen when Stormlight runs out suddenly or is blocked, then no matter how fast healing is, it would not have opportunity to heal all damage done. Quote That's why it's so common that people are sore the day after a workout. With the near instantaneous healing from Stormlight there wouldn't be much in the way of pain. But if people on Stormlight don't have supernatural strength, then they push themselves far beyond regular human limits, into realm of tearing ligaments, which would hurt much more than any workout or post-workout pain. Quote Edit: Not to say you don't have a lot of good arguments, it's just that based on character comments and the adrenaline like nature of Stormlight, it seems to me that it's not a supernatural increase in strength but just Stormlight's ability to push the body to it's limits and keep it there. Well, if the comments were all we have I would agree. However, combined with clear evidence of supernatural strength across all books, and general mechanism of holding Investiture strengthening the body that Nomad helpfully lays out in TSM, I think the simplest explanation is that all of the effects of Stormlight are simply effects of holding large amounts of Investiture. That one reason explains every single enhancement noted in this thread. 10 hours ago, StanLemon said: I've got to say though, it's nice to have this discussion outside a VS thread. Thanks @therunner for starting it. Happy you like it. Quote Another reason I prefer the adrenaline like hypothesis is I find it to just be a more interesting explanation personally. Fair enough. Primary evidence for Stormlight not granting strength is that single sentence from Kaladin, at least so far in this thread. All the other comments and facts tell us that Stormlight does provide enhanced strength. To that I'll just note again that TSM gives us clear mechanism for all the facts we see with Stormlight, holding Investiture improves the body. That explains the improved and superhuman reflexes, speed, endurance, healing, durability and strength. So far, I have not seen a single argument for why this general mechanism should not apply. Personally, I think it makes more sense that Stormlight simply operates like most other forms of kinetic Investiture, than that somehow Stormlight strength is exempt from this and is explained by completely separate mechanism (which to me seems insufficient to even explain the observations). Edited October 31, 2024 by therunner
alder24 Posted October 31, 2024 Posted October 31, 2024 6 hours ago, therunner said: To that I'll just note again that TSM gives us clear mechanism for all the facts we see with Stormlight, holding Investiture improves the body. That explains the improved and superhuman reflexes, speed, endurance, healing, durability and strength. So far, I have not seen a single argument for why this general mechanism should not apply. Here is one, single argument for that. Dipping below 5%, which is 1000 BEU, removes many of Nomad's strength enhancements. That's a loooot of investiture and Radiants don't hold a lot of investiture, even when infused with Stormlight it's not enough to manifest those effects. So there is another mechanism by which Radiants get stronger, either by directly giving them raw strength, or it's because of healing. Spoiler tskyeguye From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects? Brandon Sanderson The latter. Skrimyt Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be? Brandon Sanderson Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy. But RAFO to specifics. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) 1
therunner he/him Posted November 1, 2024 Author Posted November 1, 2024 (edited) 17 hours ago, alder24 said: Here is one, single argument for that. Dipping below 5%, which is 1000 BEU, removes many of Nomad's strength enhancements. That's a loooot of investiture and Radiants don't hold a lot of investiture, even when infused with Stormlight it's not enough to manifest those effects. So there is another mechanism by which Radiants get stronger, either by directly giving them raw strength, or it's because of healing. Reveal hidden contents tskyeguye From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects? Brandon Sanderson The latter. Skrimyt Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be? Brandon Sanderson Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy. But RAFO to specifics. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) Aux notes that hundreds of BEUs are wealthy only on some world, so then clearly on some worlds, hundreds and low thousands of BEUs are not particularly noteworthy. Roshar is the most Investiture rich planet we have seen so far, hence Roshar is likely among the places were hundreds to thousands of BEUs are not 'wealth'. Even then, there are several counterarguments to that: That quote does not say what you claim. You say That's a loooot of investiture and Radiants don't hold a lot of investiture, even when infused with Stormlight But the WOB says only that they don't hold large quantities over time, which is true considering Radiants hold stormlight at most for an hour or so a day. So the WoB is not a counterargument. Quote don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. But even then, we have direct evidence of Radiants holding equivalent of at minimum high-hundreds to low-thousands of Breaths. In Warbreaker (chapter 56) Vasher unsheats Nightblood, and states It consumed ~600 Breaths in 3-4 minutes. It's rate of consumption increases the longer it is drawn. After those 4 minutes, the rate is such that Quote He was left with just barely enough Breath to reach the First Heightening. Another few seconds, and Nightblood would have sucked the rest away. We can conclude that after few minutes Warbreaker Nightblood (which seems far less powerful than Oathbringer Nightblood), consumes Investiture at rate of ~10-15 Breaths per second, which is increasing with every passing moment. In Oathbringer, Szeth wield fully unsheathed Nightblood for several minutes, killing Thunderclasts, dozens of soldiers enhanced by Nergoul, and engages in prolonged chase. He is then effectively paralyzed by Nightblood, but not yet dead. Then Lift starts leading him towards Dalinar. Moments later Szeth collapses and gets overgrown with Nightblood tendrils, and Lifts starts trying to heal him, which leads to Nightblood feeding on her too. We can conclude several things Nightblood consumed equivalent of more than a thousand Breaths. He was drawn longer based both on events happening, state of tendrils and its effect was more powerful. Szeth still had Stormlight left, otherwise he would be killed. Alternative is that solely Lift was feeding Nightblood. Lift noted prior to this that she is running somewhat low on 'Stormlight'. Either she managed to get some food (unlikely in the middle of battle when she is actively chasing someone) or even then she had enough Investiture to hold back Nightblood for possibly more than a minute (we see Szeth have his arm fully overgrown, and lifts start healing him. The next time we see them, Szeth is fully overgrown, and so are Lifts arms). As such, she had to have provided Nightblood with equivalent of high hundreds if not low thousands of Breaths, because at that point Nightblood is consuming Investiture at rate of at least 15 BEUs per second. This is all before perpendicularity is opened. TLDR: Nightblood consumes Breaths at such rates, that Oathbringer is clear evidence that Radiants hold equivalent of thousands of Breaths. 4th Oath Radiants are more Invested than Fused (Cognitive Shadows) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522-dragonsteel-2023/#e16263), and this is even when not holding Stormlight (otherwise Kaladin would not remain conscious). In TSM, when thinking about what could have invested sunhearts so much (thousands of BEUs), Aux positis that there must be some other force Investing them, and directly likens it to Stormlight (suggesting that Stormlight can infuse over a thousand of BEUs relatively easily. Quote One soul’s worth, even with a shade attached, wouldn’t be enough for us to absorb over a thousand BEUs of Investiture like we did, Aux said. So there must be some other force filling the stone, like Stormlight on Roshar. Roshar is probably the most Investiture-rich world we have seen (technically with the exception of Sel), so why wouldn't Radiants hold huge amounts of Investiture? So to sum up, your argument is not supported by the WoB you quote, Oathbringer provides us with evidence of Radiants holding at minimum high hundreds-low thousands of Breaths worth of Stormlight, Auxes comment suggesting Stormlight is relatively dense source of Investiture, and WoBs that support that 4th Oath Radiants are as Invested as some Cognitive Shadows and Roshar is high-Investiture world. On those grounds, I don't see why I should be convinced by your argument. And finally, if Radiants don't get those general Investiture enhancement, what is the source of improved resilience, improved speed and improved reflexes? But whatever the mechanism, we can agree that Stormlight enhances the Radiant to such levels as to let him fight on reasonably equal grounds someone who is over twice as strong as regular person? Edited November 1, 2024 by therunner
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