There will be no consequences to Adolin murdering Sadeas

[the_archduke]

Rosharan UN?!? For a purely Alethi matter? No other country would even want that as it would encourage Alethi interference in their internal matters. 

And please appoint Jasnah as judge. She'd find him guilty of being correct when small minded people were quibbling and give him a medal. 

[Storyspren]

That was Adolin being ruled by his passions foreshadowing him being Odium's champion. Maybe. Or something something Maia. But I do think it will be plot-relevant again.

[Slayd_07]

2 hours ago, the_archduke said:

She'd find him guilty of being correct when small minded people were quibbling and give him a medal. 

Exactly! Jasnah is the #1 model icon of just doing what needs to be done. She knows how to recognize when someone powerful is using their status to shield themselves from justice, and she obviously thinks that Adolin's model of justice is the correct one in that situation. 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

2 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Rosharan UN?!? For a purely Alethi matter? No other country would even want that as it would encourage Alethi interference in their internal matters. 

And please appoint Jasnah as judge. She'd find him guilty of being correct when small minded people were quibbling and give him a medal. 

Society doesn’t work if everyone can kill others to “improve the world”

[BinarySecond]

Who else to Judge the murder of a Highprince but the King  Queen of Alethkar. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

Society doesn’t work if everyone can kill others to “improve the world”

Society also doesn't work if people can blatantly commit murder and treason repeatedly and be completely beyond any kind of interference because they own a particularly shiny sword.

[logicless.bt]

Things are just different in a fantasy world. If this were the real world, I'd have difficulty rooting for a monarch to expand and cement his absolute rule. No matter "how good of a person be is," I wouldn't want a despot in power. But because it's a fantasy world where that sort of thing is the norm, supporting Dalinar feels natural.

It's the same with Sadeas's death. In the real world there's habeus corpus and a citizen's right to a trial, etc. There's none of that here. In universe Sadeas just essentially declared intent to murder with legal abandon. He's arguably the closest thing possible to ontological evil (excluding Odium), and being treated as such isn't morally questionable

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

19 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Ialai is dead.

Good point - is anyone going to punish Shallan for killing Ialai? Or what about for killing both her parents? At some point we just have to realize that the world these characters are in is NOT earth. And it's not in a similar time period that earth is in. People get away with murder often enough - especially if their dad is the ultimate judge and the person they murdered was their dad's sworn enemy who tried to leave them stranded and left to die shortly before then.

They also live in a world where they just formally duel each other to the death all the time. Adolin's dad and uncle AND Sadeus were all warlords who just killed their way to the throne. It's not exactly a strong foundation for a culture or safety, protection, equality, etc. It's all about letting the strongest rule, proving yourself in combat, etc. That's the whole worldview that Adolin grew up in. Given that cultural context I'm not remotely shocked that he took advantage of an opportunity and killed Sadeus. And I'm not really surprised that he's gettign away with it, cause sometimes books need realistic examples instead of idealistic examples. Stormlight has plenty of idealistic examples, and I'm glad we are getting a more realistic one, even if it feels at odds with the higher values that the radiants and the new Dalinar stand for.

All that said, I agree with the other people here who have suggested Adolin could become Odium's champion. I would not be shocked, especially after the passion we keep seeing from him in these previews. He's still very angry at his dad, and his dad is very angry at him. I could see a world where Odium curates some rough situations for Adolin, makes him think all is lost, and then offers to save Shallan and keep Roshar intact and relatively safe if he would just become his champion and face Dalinar. If we are realistic about it - Adolin killing Dalinar wouldn't actually mean Dalinar is gone - he would come back as a fused anyway. So they'd have plenty of time to hash things out after that lol plus I doubt Dalinar can bring himself to permanently kill his son, so it pretty much assures victory for Odium. I'd enjoy reading this story line anyway.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

2 hours ago, logicless.bt said:

Things are just different in a fantasy world. If this were the real world, I'd have difficulty rooting for a monarch to expand and cement his absolute rule. No matter "how good of a person be is," I wouldn't want a despot in power. But because it's a fantasy world where that sort of thing is the norm, supporting Dalinar feels natural.

It's the same with Sadeas's death. In the real world there's habeus corpus and a citizen's right to a trial, etc. There's none of that here. In universe Sadeas just essentially declared intent to murder with legal abandon. He's arguably the closest thing possible to ontological evil (excluding Odium), and being treated as such isn't morally questionable

Yes, I agree with this viewpoint here. We have to put ourselves into the minds of the characters, not sit here in our much safer, much more organized, much less chaotic world and pretend that those people struggling for survival in the fantasy story need to live up to our standards of morality. We have each been shaped since birth to subscribe to certain values and morals that others in different circumstances would not say are inherently right/wrong. I bet Adolin and Kaladin and others would look at our world and call us out for a lot of the stuff we do or support that they find completely immoral or wrong. Even people born in different circumstances on Earth will have different viewpoints on what is right/wrong.

That's one of the themes of the book too - remember the discussion with Syl and Kaladin talking about how it was ok for him to kill the parshendi when protecting Dalinar, but it would be wrong for him to kill Amaram? Syl agrees that it basically comes down to whatever she perceives as right vs wrong, even though she doesn't have the answers. And she is an Honorspren.. so Kal is surprised that she is just as lost as he is. Humans define and shape what is honorable and right vs what is wrong. Those ideals are what shape and define the honorspren too. I can't imagine that the people on Roshar with their histories and cultures would land on the exact same general guidelines for right vs wrong that the majority of people on earth would support as well.

To use an extreme example - would anyone be upset at somebody who had successfully killed off Hitler in the exact same way that Adolin killed Sadeas? No. They'd think it was great that someone finally got the guy. And I imagine that's how a lot of the people in the book viewed Sadeas' death - if you weren't aligned closely with him you probably hated his guts but knew he was protected cause he had a lot of power. The only potential issue is that now people find out he did it and that Dalinar helped cover it up (or at least avoided disclosing it to others), and if they liked Sadeas they might think it is an example of corruption and a reason worthy of opposing Dalinar's rule.

Not to write out too much stuff - but I'm far more concerned with Kaladin getting off the hook for agreeing to let the king be assassinated when it was his one job to prevent that. He had conflicting oaths in that case that almost killed Syl as a result. I don't remember that ever being addressed - he basically allowed the assassination to be kicked off, then stepped in to save the day and took all the credit but none of the blame. Does Navani know that Kaladin was part of a secret group that was organizing the exact attempt on the kings life that he foiled? Sure, he eventually stopped it, but to me that was way less moral than what Adolin did. He got lucky that it hadn't already been taken care of before he went back. Otherwise he'd be a sad dude still healing his leg in a barrack somewhere. The difference of a few minutes means he is instead a full knights radiant and the 3rd heir to Dalinar's throne.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Yes, I agree with this viewpoint here. We have to put ourselves into the minds of the characters, not sit here in our much safer, much more organized, much less chaotic world and pretend that those people struggling for survival in the fantasy story need to live up to our standards of morality. We have each been shaped since birth to subscribe to certain values and morals that others in different circumstances would not say are inherently right/wrong. I bet Adolin and Kaladin and others would look at our world and call us out for a lot of the stuff we do or support that they find completely immoral or wrong. Even people born in different circumstances on Earth will have different viewpoints on what is right/wrong.

That's one of the themes of the book too - remember the discussion with Syl and Kaladin talking about how it was ok for him to kill the parshendi when protecting Dalinar, but it would be wrong for him to kill Amaram? Syl agrees that it basically comes down to whatever she perceives as right vs wrong, even though she doesn't have the answers. And she is an Honorspren.. so Kal is surprised that she is just as lost as he is. Humans define and shape what is honorable and right vs what is wrong. Those ideals are what shape and define the honorspren too. I can't imagine that the people on Roshar with their histories and cultures would land on the exact same general guidelines for right vs wrong that the majority of people on earth would support as well.

To use an extreme example - would anyone be upset at somebody who had successfully killed off Hitler in the exact same way that Adolin killed Sadeas? No. They'd think it was great that someone finally got the guy. And I imagine that's how a lot of the people in the book viewed Sadeas' death - if you weren't aligned closely with him you probably hated his guts but knew he was protected cause he had a lot of power. The only potential issue is that now people find out he did it and that Dalinar helped cover it up (or at least avoided disclosing it to others), and if they liked Sadeas they might think it is an example of corruption and a reason worthy of opposing Dalinar's rule.

Not to write out too much stuff - but I'm far more concerned with Kaladin getting off the hook for agreeing to let the king be assassinated when it was his one job to prevent that. He had conflicting oaths in that case that almost killed Syl as a result. I don't remember that ever being addressed - he basically allowed the assassination to be kicked off, then stepped in to save the day and took all the credit but none of the blame. Does Navani know that Kaladin was part of a secret group that was organizing the exact attempt on the kings life that he foiled? Sure, he eventually stopped it, but to me that was way less moral than what Adolin did. He got lucky that it hadn't already been taken care of before he went back. Otherwise he'd be a sad dude still healing his leg in a barrack somewhere. The difference of a few minutes means he is instead a full knights radiant and the 3rd heir to Dalinar's throne.

Fantasy worlds aren’t earth. But I feel like the morals of murder would be the same, regardless of location. 
Kaladin does have this discussion. It’s less of a difference between the Parshendi and Amaram as it is that there were people in need of protection at the tower while there was nobody for Kaladin to protect angainst Amaram at the time (until OB, when he did get to fight him). 
Killing Hitler would have been great. However, Hitler was at war with most of the world. He started and continued a war that killed millions of innocences. Sadeas, while indirectly responsible for the deaths of his soldiers and bridgemen, had not caused any deaths that could be pinned on him. (I realize I sound like I’m supporting Sadeas, and just want to quickly clarify that I’m not. He deserved death, just not by getting stabbed in a corridor in a fit of anger.) Kaladin and Dalinar couldn’t directly retaliate without stating a war (another thing that wasn’t an issue with Hitler). And part of the problem with Adolins way is that now the skeptics have evidence to use against Dalinar, who shouldn’t have hidden Adolins actions,  but he was going through a lot. “You want us to be united, but you supported your son’s murder of the biggest threat to your authority.”

 

For Kaladin, I’ll just say: there’s a difference between thinking or even saying something and actually doing it. He had a complex moral issue, and he eventually chose to protect Elohkar before he died. He should have acted sooner, and he did get lucky with the timing. Maybe he does deserve some punishment, but the way things ended up, I think he should get off pretty light. 
 

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Society also doesn't work if people can blatantly commit murder and treason repeatedly and be completely beyond any kind of interference because they own a particularly shiny sword.

True. At that point, “it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.” Violence would have been nessecary to overthrow Sadeas, and it would have caused a war. The Kholins were trying to undermine Sadeas legally and force him against Adolin in a duel without destroying Alethkar. 
But realistically, they needed a better system of government, not an assassination. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

But realistically, they needed a better system of government, not an assassination. 

I don't disagree with this, but that's not really on the table until two books and a new ruler later (and Jasnah has to stab a guy herself when establishing authority, on top of Shallan assassinating Ialai). As everyone's favorite opinionated clown once said,

Quote

Like a man with diarrhea in a sandpaper factory, sometimes all available options are less than ideal.

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

16 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

Fantasy worlds aren’t earth. But I feel like the morals of murder would be the same, regardless of location. 

But they literally live in a world and culture where they believe the strongest survive by power of the Almighty. That's how Dalinar and Gavilar's rule was justified - they won the fights, therefore the Almighty deems them worthy. I think that mentality would have a little bit of an impact on how they view murder, especially when it is not premeditated or planned but when two men come to blows in an alley who have been at odds for years. Especially when the one who died tried to get the other killed previously.

16 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

He deserved death, just not by getting stabbed in a corridor in a fit of anger.)

I'm ok with Sadeas dying this way. Wit was pretty cool with it too - he was just sad that he missed it. Again I think that for the people in-world it is less of a morality issue and more of a consquences issue. Yes, this gives their enemies some leverage if they find out what really happened, but that's what they are worried about - not whether it was ok for him to do or not. Dalinar might care about that now, but not enough to actually do anything about it. I wouldn't be suprised at all to find out that Dalinar, Gavilar, Sadeas, and others had more than one person they'd killed in a fit of passion that they got away with. Dalinar almost killed people in bar fights all the time apparently - up to the point that people refused to fight him. And that was only when he was fighting for sport or for fun.

16 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

For Kaladin, I’ll just say: there’s a difference between thinking or even saying something and actually doing it. He had a complex moral issue, and he eventually chose to protect Elohkar before he died. He should have acted sooner, and he did get lucky with the timing. Maybe he does deserve some punishment, but the way things ended up, I think he should get off pretty light. 

So if Adolin had tried to do it and had failed, would it be less immoral? Obviously the consquences would be worse because Sadeas would retaliate and make it public knowledge. But those are just the natural consequences based on if people find out or not. If we focus on the morals of it, the intent is key. For Kaladin - he had every intention of letting Elohkar be killed. He, as the top leader of the king's guard, agreed to let a group of people kill the king and agreed that he would turn a blind eye and let it happen. The ONLY reason that it didn't happen is because Kaladin finally admitted he knew it was wrong, and then happened to get there just in time to save the day. Again, the difference of a few minutes gives us either Kaladin the radiant and hero vs Kaladin the injured soldier with a dead spren and severed bond who betrayed the king and let him get assassinated.

If Adolin needs to be punished and admit openly to his murder of Sadeas (a known murderer and pretty evil person), then Kaladin also needs to be punished and admit openly the part he played in the attempted assassination of the king. It's doubly wrong because he has been praised and rewarded for saving the king from the assassins that he was directly responsible for. If he is going to get the praise, he should definitely get the blame. I want to know what Navani thinks when she finds out his role there. Dalinar too. Maybe enough time has gone by that they won't do anything about it, especially because he changed his mind, but it's wild that Syl let him get away with not owning up to that. But again, maybe that's just my own moral code and what I've internalized from the way I was raised. In-world this might be similar to the Adolin situation where they aren't as phased by death, assassins, etc. Though they do seem to be pretty anti-treason, so that could be an issue.

[Sedside she/her]

What I see the important about this topic is not whether it applies to the world rules, but whether or not it applies to what the book implies. I mean, there are no topics titled like "there will be no consequences for Szeth for killing half of the Rosharan royalty" or "there will be no consequences for Kaladin for taking part in a plot against Elhokar". In Szeth's case there is no discourse about it in the book. Noone is talking or thinking about it. In Kaladin's case the discourse was started and concluded within WoR. We already know what author thinks about it and what he wanted to tell us writing this arc.

In Adolin's case I see the discourse still going. In my opinion, it can't possibly be a coincidence that Kaladin gives his speech to Moash regarding "murders in dark corridors" and several chapters later Adolin commits murder in a dark corridor. And then in RoW Dalinar says it as well, talking about Adolin murdering a man in a back alley and lying about it. At the same time Wit and Shallan approve of what Adolin did, and most of the other characters are just not aware. What I see here is an issue raised by the author without the proper answer given yet. I see our main characters divided in regards to this issue, with Kaladin and Dalinar being the ones who think it's wrong, and Wit and Shallan (and probably Jasnah) thinking it's right.

We can of course keep assuring ourselves that Sadeas deserved to die, the world is better without him, over and over again, but it's not how it should work for the book, in my opinion. I want to know what author thinks on this matter, and this answer should be given with literary devices. As this is one of the main Dalinar's claims against Adolin, then the way to answer this question positively would be showing Dalinar changing his mind or being somehow punished for having these claims. Answering this question negatively should be Adolin facing consequenses for his action, whatever they could be. But just leaving it all like that would equal, in my opinion, to Sanderson saying something like "okay, guys, nevermind, let's forget it, let the topic drop and move on to the more important matters, like Maya revival or whether or not Mraize is a kandra". I wouldn't like to see this happening.

Edited October 30, 2024 by Sedside

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

10 minutes ago, Sedside said:

We can of course keep assuring ourselves that Sadeas deserved to die, the world is better without him, over and over again, but it's not how it should work for the book, in my opinion. I want to know what author thinks on this matter, and this answer should be given with literary devices. As this is one of the main Dalinar's claims against Adolin, then the way to answer this question positively would be showing Dalinar changing his mind or being somehow punished for having these claims. Answering this question negatively should be Adolin facing consequenses for his action, whatever they could be. But just leaving it all like that would equal, in my opinion, to Sanderson saying something like "okay, guys, nevermind, let's forget it, let the topic drop and move on to the more important matters, like Maya revival or whether or not Mraize is a kandra". I wouldn't like to see this happening.

From WoBs though we know that Brandon isn't looking to make it a huge deal, just that the implications of the murder haven't totally been fleshed out. But really the only issue is that Adolin admitted to it. If he had never told anyone (or maybe just Shallan), then there wouldn't be any further backlash. No one else knew what had happened. Is the lesson that we shouldn't kill people in dark alleys and we shouldn't support assassination attempts on the king, or is that we shouldn't get caught doing those things? I don't necessarily think there's a lesson invovled so much as a sharing of events and how they happened on this planet with these people. And sometimes people just get away with murder.

Kaladin never owned up to what he did, though. Never apologized or admitted his wrongdoings, even though he is supposed to be one of the most honorable characters. He just took praise for saving the day and left it at that. I am just saying that if we hold Adolin to our moral standards, we need to do the same for Kaladin. And I personally have a much bigger problem with what Kaladin did vs what Adolin did.

And what about Shallan killing Ialai? Will that have more far-reaching implications? I understand both Ialai and Sadeas's murders could still have consequences in the future if word gets out, but in my opinion both of these murders are too far in the past and much too small of issues to have major consequences in the rest of the book. The only person who seems concerned about Adolin killing Sadeas is Dalinar, and that's only because he has convinced himself that Adolin is a better man than he is and he doesn't want to admit that he might be wrong. The biggest consequence of this murder is the damage it has done to their relationship - and again, that's only because Adolin 'fessed up to it.

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Kaladin never owned up to what he did, though. Never apologized or admitted his wrongdoings, even though he is supposed to be one of the most honorable characters. He just took praise for saving the day and left it at that. I am just saying that if we hold Adolin to our moral standards, we need to do the same for Kaladin. And I personally have a much bigger problem with what Kaladin did vs what Adolin did.

Not to mention what Kaladin did set up Moash to run off and then all the trouble that has led to. I'd be interested to see how Moash would have gone down without having to run away like he did. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

16 minutes ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

Not to mention what Kaladin did set up Moash to run off and then all the trouble that has led to. I'd be interested to see how Moash would have gone down without having to run away like he did. 

Precisely!! Yes, if Kaladin had acted with Honor and had done his duty by reporting Moash and the whole crew to Dalinar right away, a whole lot of damage would have been prevented. Technically he still holds some responsibility for the king's death, simply because he let Moash escape and then Moash killed him later. I really, really want to see a scene where Kaladin owns up to his involvement and tells Navani and Dalinar and Jasnah the whole story. I have to imagine Jasnah and Navani would be pretty upset to know these secrets he's been hiding. And it kinda bothers me that it just isn't something he thinks about. At least Adolin reflects back on his murder of Sadeas every once in a while and has pretty much come to terms with it. Kaladin just ignores what he did and pretends to be the hero who saved the day.... 

Sounds an awful lot like Amaram if I'm being honest - get directly involved in an assassination attempt, turn around and stop it so you can save the day and be the hero, but never tell anyone about your involvement...

Edit to add: Your display name is fantastic lol

Edited October 30, 2024 by CognitiveShadow

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Precisely!! Yes, if Kaladin had acted with Honor and had done his duty by reporting Moash and the whole crew to Dalinar right away, a whole lot of damage would have been prevented. Technically he still holds some responsibility for the king's death, simply because he let Moash escape and then Moash killed him later. I really, really want to see a scene where Kaladin owns up to his involvement and tells Navani and Dalinar and Jasnah the whole story. I have to imagine Jasnah and Navani would be pretty upset to know these secrets he's been hiding. And it kinda bothers me that it just isn't something he thinks about. At least Adolin reflects back on his murder of Sadeas every once in a while and has pretty much come to terms with it. Kaladin just ignores what he did and pretends to be the hero who saved the day.... 

Sounds an awful lot like Amaram if I'm being honest - get directly involved in an assassination attempt, turn around and stop it so you can save the day and be the hero, but never tell anyone about your involvement...

Edit to add: Your display name is fantastic lol

Exactly! I know Kaladin still beats himself up about how he handled Moash, but never frames it from this angle. 

I think the biggest issue Dalinar and co have with Adolin murdering Sadeas isn't that he did it, but how he did it. If it had been in a duel with the exact same result it would have been fine, but because it was a 'back alley' stabbing they're a bit squirrelly about it.

But Sadeas was too crafty to ever get pinned into a formal duel, and could wreak so much damage in the interim. 

Haha, thanks! I wanted to start posting on the forums, and was stuck for a name, but had just finished The Lost Metal XD 

[Sedside she/her]

8 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

From WoBs though we know that Brandon isn't looking to make it a huge deal, just that the implications of the murder haven't totally been fleshed out. But really the only issue is that Adolin admitted to it. If he had never told anyone (or maybe just Shallan), then there wouldn't be any further backlash.

If it's true, then Sanderson isn't the author I thought he was, and WaT would be the last book by him I'd read 

8 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

And what about Shallan killing Ialai? Will that have more far-reaching implications?

Yeah, I would like to see the implications of this too. I don't think it's likely though, but it would be great to read. I personally read it as just another item in the long list of evidences that Shallan and Adolin have a bad influence on each other and their marriage is doomed  Veeery long list of evidences

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

11 hours ago, Sedside said:

If it's true, then Sanderson isn't the author I thought he was, and WaT would be the last book by him I'd read 

Well, here's the WoB I was referencing. Sounds odd to punish yourself though just because you don't like that a character got away with murder.

Quote

Questioner

It kind of felt like you let Adolin off the hook for murder.

Brandon Sanderson

I would say no, I didn't. There will be more implications there, but what you've gotta understand is, Adolin does not view what he did as murder. His dad is uncertain if it is. And his dad is the ultimate judge of legality. There will be far-reaching implications of this, but kind of the way a society like that works, if you didn't get caught and you are the son of the king, then you get a little-- you know what I mean?

Questioner

Is it yet to be resolved?

Brandon Sanderson

Yet to have the full extent of its implications, how about that? I would say that you are perfectly right if you were to say he did something morally wrong. There are many who would agree with you; there are many who would disagree with you. And that disagreement is part of what the story is about.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

11 hours ago, Sedside said:

Yeah, I would like to see the implications of this too. I don't think it's likely though, but it would be great to read. I personally read it as just another item in the long list of evidences that Shallan and Adolin have a bad influence on each other and their marriage is doomed  Veeery long list of evidences

That's quite the confident statement lol I'd be curious to see your list - I like them together but I'm not sold that they are 'perfect' for each other or anything. Honestly Shallan's mind is so fragmented in so many ways that it's hard to imagine her having a stable relationship with anyone. But Kaladin does point out how they are good for each other in the book, at least from his perspective, and points out that he and Shallan together would have likely been a disaster as they'd feed off each other. I tend to agree more with Kaladin's assessment than yours.

But I guess my main point on the larger topic is just that I can understand how people in a fantasy world that is set on a cultural understanding of "fight and kill other people to prove yourself to the Almighty and prepare yourself for more wars in the afterlife, the strongest should rule, winning a fight shows you are favored of the almighty, etc." would have the occasional murder. And it is so supremely realistic (even in our world) for the son of a literal king to commit a murder with no witnesses and then to get away with it even after telling the king what they did. Especially when they are at a time of war against an evil god who is trying to subject them all to his rule. One murder of a slimy scumbag who was going to impede their ability to fight against the evil god is a small problem in this situation honestly.

I do expect the natural consequences to cause an issue if other people figure out the truth of what happened and blame Dalinar for keeping it a secret, and it has definitely impacted Dalinar and Adolin's relationship. It's possible Brandon changed his mind and this turns out to have major implications in WaT, but I personally kind of doubt it. Besides, if he hadn't killed Sadeas, I'm pretty confident that Jasnah would have had assassins take care of him eventually anyway. She has a known history of paying assassins well and keeping secrets. So many characters in these books are actual murderers and we kind of overlook it because there is a much larger plot and we are just seeing the story. It's not necessarily our place to judge and call for justice. Except for Moash lol

[logicless.bt]

14 hours ago, Sedside said:

If it's true, then Sanderson isn't the author I thought he was, and WaT would be the last book by him I'd read 

I'm curious about this, so I'm going to ask some questions reader-to-reader.

23 hours ago, Sedside said:

I want to know what author thinks on this matter, and this answer should be given with literary devices. As this is one of the main Dalinar's claims against Adolin, then the way to answer this question positively would be showing Dalinar changing his mind or being somehow punished for having these claims. Answering this question negatively should be Adolin facing consequenses for his action, whatever they could be. But just leaving it all like that would equal, in my opinion, to Sanderson saying something like "okay, guys, nevermind, let's forget it, let the topic drop and move on to the more important matters, like Maya revival or whether or not Mraize is a kandra". I wouldn't like to see this happening.

Is your objection a matter of writing or morality? All your points are about how leaving this question unanswered is poor writing; however, questioning what the author thinks about this moral issue could possibly allude to the core problem you have being a moral objection. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm asking.

How would you feel if the matter gets addressed again but the characters are left divided by the end of the book -- if the in-world resolution is that there is NO resolution?

How would you feel if Sanderson himself said "it's a very thorny issue tied to the series' theme of honor, and I wanted to challenge readers to interpret his actions based on the rest of the series?"

[Sedside she/her]

On 10/31/2024 at 10:02 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

Well, here's the WoB I was referencing. Sounds odd to punish yourself though just because you don't like that a character got away with murder.

Haha, well, I just don't see it as a punishment. And it's not because he got away with murder. It's because I have some expectations of how a book should be written. I mean, we have a lot of people getting away with murders in this book, and I'm totally fine with it. But in Adolin's case there are just a lot of things going around this murder, and also a lot of thing going around this character, so if this happens, I'll just be disappointed by the resolution, and I don't like being disappointed  I guess noone does, lol.

On 10/31/2024 at 10:02 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

That's quite the confident statement lol I'd be curious to see your list - I like them together but I'm not sold that they are 'perfect' for each other or anything. Honestly Shallan's mind is so fragmented in so many ways that it's hard to imagine her having a stable relationship with anyone. But Kaladin does point out how they are good for each other in the book, at least from his perspective, and points out that he and Shallan together would have likely been a disaster as they'd feed off each other. I tend to agree more with Kaladin's assessment than yours.

I somewhat agree with you here, as it mostly is about Shallan's state of mind and so on. I will have to think about it for some time to word my thoughts about it properly if you are really interested to know them, but I'm afraid it's quite offtopic here

On 11/1/2024 at 12:53 AM, logicless.bt said:

Is your objection a matter of writing or morality? All your points are about how leaving this question unanswered is poor writing; however, questioning what the author thinks about this moral issue could possibly allude to the core problem you have being a moral objection. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm asking.

Oh, I like these questions, thank you! I mostly address this as an issue of writing. I mean, I have nothing against the idea that someone can kill someone else and get away with it (in fiction, of course), I'm currently re-watching Dexter for instance, lol. But if it happens, and specifially if it's addressed as something important, I want to know, like, how did he get away with it, what was the purpose of this action, what was the message and something like that. What I see currently, if it's left like it is, is just, I don't know, Adolin being used as a plot device? Like, I don't want to leave Sadeas alive for the next books, so I'll make him meet Adolin in a dark corridor and be eliminated from the book. And then Adolin just tells Dalinar he did it, and nothing is going to happen because he is Dalinar's son. Very convenient. It just looks quite dumb in my opinion.

On 11/1/2024 at 12:53 AM, logicless.bt said:

How would you feel if the matter gets addressed again but the characters are left divided by the end of the book -- if the in-world resolution is that there is NO resolution?

Of course characters can stay divided. I mean, there is a conflict set up between Dalinar and Adolin. I've actually seen them having some tension ever since WoK, and currently I see this confrontation heading towards its climax. Sadeas's murder is one part of this conflict, not the only one, but an important one, along with Evi's death. And I think it is a very interesting conflict, very juicy, with a lot of potential for drama and emotional impact on the reader. And I agree with you that there is no resolution for this conflict in world, because there is no correct answer who is right and who is not. Each one has his totally understandable points. So I do see characters stay divided by the end of the book. What I don't see is a juicy, dramatic, perfectly set up conflict being dropped and forgotten. So I think that this issue is going to be addressed, the characters are going to be left divided, and the conflict is going to be resolved by the Contest of Champions.

On 11/1/2024 at 12:53 AM, logicless.bt said:

How would you feel if Sanderson himself said "it's a very thorny issue tied to the series' theme of honor, and I wanted to challenge readers to interpret his actions based on the rest of the series?"

That would definitely leave me disappointed  If Adolin's arc is going to keep heading for the same direction it was headed for the previous 4 books, like, you know, fashion boy, happy husband, Maya revival and so on, I won't be reading the rest of the series  I know I'm like in the 1% of readers who don't think Adolin is so great and everything like that, I think he is a Mary Sue (Marty? whatever) or a plot device, and I think the only way to save his arc (for him to actually have an arc) is to turn him to Odium. I'm not so interested in magic, worldbuilding and so on, I like it, but mostly as a scenery for characters, their relations and arcs. I can of course see Sanderson doing the opposite from what I would like to see, but that would mean he is probably not my writer. Though from WoK and WoR I thought he was exactly what I wanted, lol. And Warbreaker was also very very good in this regard.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

31 minutes ago, Sedside said:

What I see currently, if it's left like it is, is just, I don't know, Adolin being used as a plot device? Like, I don't want to leave Sadeas alive for the next books, so I'll make him meet Adolin in a dark corridor and be eliminated from the book.

Brandon has said he did not plan for Adolin to kill Sadeas, but instead that Adolin (the character) demanded it. And that’s why it happened. Brandon tries to feel the characters as he writes and let them make their own decisions, and this was one of those instances. Here are some more WoBs on the situation too

Quote

Questioner

Why did you make Adolin kill someone?

Brandon Sanderson

Adolin's on the edge. He was just really frustrated with this guy who tried to murder his dad multiple times. Adolin demanded that it happen. It wasn't me forcing it to.

Questioner

Because I was reading that during my creative writing course. Everybody in there was wondering why I was so mad...

Brandon Sanderson

You can slap him around sometime, if you want. But he made the call himself.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 22, 2017)

Quote

Questioner

I am very convinced that Adolin, with the events that happen with the last book. You're sending him down a like a dark path. Is he possibly going to be a-- *questioningly* Antagonist? Protagonist?-- A bad, eventually? Or is he--

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to say this, the things that Adolin did do not contradict some of the moralities on Roshar, in fact they follow them directly. Some of the moralities on our planet would say what he did is the right thing to do. I think treating it as a "dark path" is too reductionist to say. There are people who would seriously argue, and they would have a good argument, that what Dalinar was doing by leaving Sadeas around was a good idea. And then there are other people who would say "You know what Sadeas did was a challenge and it was rightly then responded to" and then there are people who would say it was absolutely immoral. So, it depends on your philosophy.

What would Honor say? Well, Honor's dead, so-- *lots of laughter* You know Honor would not have been behind that action, but Honor's dead.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

Quote

Questioner

What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway and what happened at the end of this book... between Adolin and the other character [Sadeas]. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally... It just depends on your perspective, but personally I say what Adolin did was something that needed to be done and no one else was capable of doing.

Questioner

Would you say that it's going to have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it's definitely—how it's handled, definitely there are ramifications, lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

Blightsong (paraphrased)

Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That was all Adolin.

Minicon 2015 (April 2, 2015)

[Sedside she/her]

2 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Brandon has said he did not plan for Adolin to kill Sadeas, but instead that Adolin (the character) demanded it. And that’s why it happened. Brandon tries to feel the characters as he writes and let them make their own decisions, and this was one of those instances. Here are some more WoBs on the situation too

Well, okay, maybe I'm wrong about the reasoning, but it doesn't change the outcome. The character wants something, he gets it conveniently served on a platter with no consequences. Adolin wanted to kill Sadeas, but it was Brandon who wrote them meeting in a dark corridor with no witnesses around. It was not like Adolin thought 'okay, I want to kill Sadeas, how can I manage to do it and get away with it?'. I would understand if he did it and I would probably even like it, but it was a coincidence. A very happy coincidence for Adolin.

[Confused]

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

I'm currently re-watching Dexter for instance, lol.

You're a new best friend! Great show! About a guy who learns how to fake emotions because his own emotions are so stunted. A psychopath who's "good" and only kills other killers! Aside from the murders, I so identify...

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

Well, okay, maybe I'm wrong about the reasoning, but it doesn't change the outcome. The character wants something, he gets it conveniently served on a platter with no consequences. Adolin wanted to kill Sadeas, but it was Brandon who wrote them meeting in a dark corridor with no witnesses around. It was not like Adolin thought 'okay, I want to kill Sadeas, how can I manage to do it and get away with it?'. I would understand if he did it and I would probably even like it, but it was a coincidence. A very happy coincidence for Adolin.

I figure coincidences happen all the time in real life, and even more so in the cosmere due to fortune shenanigans, so I’m ok with it