There will be no consequences to Adolin murdering Sadeas

[Sedside she/her]

7 hours ago, Confused said:

You're a new best friend! Great show! About a guy who learns how to fake emotions because his own emotions are so stunted. A psychopath who's "good" and only kills other killers! Aside from the murders, I so identify...

Hehe, yeah, I like it too  I've watched it 3 times already, and is currently watching for the 4th time.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

I'm not going to keep arguing, but I'll just say:

Adolin should be punished for killing Sadeas. He deserved and Roshar is better without him, but Adolin should not get let off the hook for murder.

People have mentioned Kaladin being involved in the plot to kill Elokhar and Shallan killing Ialai as examples of other characters who have avoided trouble. I'll say that they probably should also be held accountable for their actions.

In short, there's a lot of people who have gotten away with things they shouldn't. In a just world, they would be punished. Roshar is not a perfect world, and I'm not saying that that's what's going to happen, but their actions weren't justified.

Side note: I still feel that Kaladin isn't as bad as Adolin in this case. Attempted murder is very different than actual murder, and Kaladin would be guilty of aiding and abetting, which is a lesser crime than attempted murder. But that's just my thoughts. feel free to disagree.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

Side note: I still feel that Kaladin isn't as bad as Adolin in this case. Attempted murder is very different than actual murder, and Kaladin would be guilty of aiding and abetting, which is a lesser crime than attempted murder. But that's just my thoughts. feel free to disagree.

Well, let's at least tell Dalinar and Navani what Kaladin let happen and let them decide how they feel about it then. I think Kaladin would at least be guilty of treason and a full on accomplice to murder in my mind. Plus, Kaladin blamed Dalinar, Amaram, Roshone, Elhokar, etc. for their decisions that led to Tien's death... by that same metric he is equally responsible for Elhokar's eventual death at Moash's hands as well. 

I still maintain that (regardless of the morality in question) the potential consequences of Kaladin's actions were worse than the consequences of Adolin's actions. Adolin's actions had a mostly positive impact, but there may be some difficulty ahead with grumbling and complaining people down the road if the truth comes out.

Whereas if Kaladin had been just a couple minutes late, he would not be a radiant and Dalinar would have been killed by Szeth during the first Everstorm. Would any more Honorspren have seriously considered seeking out bonds if they heard that the Ancient daughter had been killed so quickly too? The more I think on this specific instance the more 'lucky' it all turned out to be for everyone involved. Those couple of minutes could have meant the end of it all. No Dalinar to suggest a contest of champions or make a binding agreement with Odium. No hope for any of our main characters, really.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Well, let's at least tell Dalinar and Navani what Kaladin let happen and let them decide how they feel about it then. I think Kaladin would at least be guilty of treason and a full on accomplice to murder in my mind. Plus, Kaladin blamed Dalinar, Amaram, Roshone, Elhokar, etc. for their decisions that led to Tien's death... by that same metric he is equally responsible for Elhokar's eventual death at Moash's hands as well. 

I still maintain that (regardless of the morality in question) the potential consequences of Kaladin's actions were worse than the consequences of Adolin's actions. Adolin's actions had a mostly positive impact, but there may be some difficulty ahead with grumbling and complaining people down the road if the truth comes out.

Whereas if Kaladin had been just a couple minutes late, he would not be a radiant and Dalinar would have been killed by Szeth during the first Everstorm. Would any more Honorspren have seriously considered seeking out bonds if they heard that the Ancient daughter had been killed so quickly too? The more I think on this specific instance the more 'lucky' it all turned out to be for everyone involved. Those couple of minutes could have meant the end of it all. No Dalinar to suggest a contest of champions or make a binding agreement with Odium. No hope for any of our main characters, really.

Yeah, but Windrunner oaths aren’t solely dependent on successful protecting others. Kaladin had a decent chance of fixing his bond just by choosing to try and save Elohkar even if it was too late. 
if he did, then things move forward pretty much the same, except Dalinar would have wound up king for OB.

[logicless.bt]

On 11/3/2024 at 8:33 AM, Sedside said:

I'm not so interested in magic, worldbuilding and so on, I like it, but mostly as a scenery for characters, their relations and arcs. I can of course see Sanderson doing the opposite from what I would like to see, but that would mean he is probably not my writer. Though from WoK and WoR I thought he was exactly what I wanted, lol. And Warbreaker was also very very good in this regard.

This helped me understand your point of view. SLA is the only Cosmere story where I've truly been impressed by Sanderson's characters, personally, but the worldbuilding and plot kept me interested and engaged through the other novels. If those two things are much lesser factors for you, then I get dropping the author as a whole.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

Yeah, but Windrunner oaths aren’t solely dependent on successful protecting others. Kaladin had a decent chance of fixing his bond just by choosing to try and save Elohkar even if it was too late. 
if he did, then things move forward pretty much the same, except Dalinar would have wound up king for OB.

But then he is also an accomplice to murder, guilty of treason, and unlikely to be trusted by Dalinar and others for a long time. He would be known as little different from Moash, even if he had tried to change his mind at the end but wasn't fast enough. I guess the thing I have a hard time with is that timing and the fact that it was out of his control. At any point there Elhokar could have been murdered with Kaladin's assistance and support without him knowing. But he just gets lucky that Elhokar is still alive when he goes up to check.

But regardless, he had to try to save Elhokar before he got murdered - if he just went up there with the intent to save the king and undo the damage he had done, maaaaybe there's a chance his intent was enough to bring back the bond with Syl... but I lean towards Elhokar's death solidifying the death of their bond - it would mean broken oaths that can't be unbroken, which led to Kaladin being responsible for the death of the man he was supposed to be protecting.

[Diomedes]

On 10/25/2024 at 7:36 PM, Sedside said:

And yes, the title and the content of the 21th chapter of OB looks pretty much something I can't ignore as well.

Wait, what do you mean by that? Set up to Fail is the title in my copy. Set up to Fall on the Coppermind chapter summary. They are set up to fail respective the meeting with Ialai in the next chapter.

[Sedside she/her]

5 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Wait, what do you mean by that? Set up to Fail is the title in my copy. Set up to Fall on the Coppermind chapter summary. They are set up to fail respective the meeting with Ialai in the next chapter.

I mean that I think this title foreshadows their marriage is set up to fail.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Just bringing back my old thread to say.... 

 

I was totally right. 

Infact, I will be bold enough to say that Brandon(if he thought killing Sadeas was wrong in WoR) definitely changed his mind while writing Oathbringer.

Infact, it was in Oathbringer that Adolin started to become the support structure for Shallan and Kaladin and of course always Renarin and a little bit of Dalinar and who can forget Maya?

That would not make any sense if Adolin was supposed to take a darker turn

[RedBlue]

Quote

The thing was, Adolin wasn’t just any Shardbearer. He was, at his core, the Blackthorn’s son. Sadeas, wherever he was, could explain what that meant.
Adolin didn’t like it, and he didn’t have to. He embraced it anyway.

— Chapter 63. This is Adolin charging around during the Azir siege. He implies that, in killing Sadeas, he was embodying the more brutal parts of Dalinar’s legacy.

Quote

How dare he judge Adolin for killing Sadeas and protecting their family, when Dalinar had burned Adolin’s mother alive?
Nothing made sense anymore. Adolin felt he was the only one who recognized that the world had gone insane, and when he pointed it out, he was told that he was being spoiled. That he needed to forgive, that he was the problem, and why couldn’t he live up to his father’s wonderful example?

— Chapter 123. This is Adolin after his injury, struggling to fight despite the conditions in the ordinary pike line. He is bitter that he feels held to a higher moral standard than Dalinar.
 

The way I read it, Adolin has mixed feelings about his choices regarding Sadeas. He doesn’t suggest that killing him was wrong, but he feels that it was not entirely right either. He’s not a paragon of virtue, and Sadeas’ death is the biggest example everyone —including Adolin — keeps coming back to.

I think these feelings are a big part of Adolin’s eventual resolution. He can empathise with Dalinar and let him be just a person, because Adolin himself has done morally dubious things, and understands that sometimes people can’t be perfect.

[TheHidelSubldies]

On 12/11/2024 at 11:33 AM, RedBlue said:

— Chapter 63. This is Adolin charging around during the Azir siege. He implies that, in killing Sadeas, he was embodying the more brutal parts of Dalinar’s legacy.

— Chapter 123. This is Adolin after his injury, struggling to fight despite the conditions in the ordinary pike line. He is bitter that he feels held to a higher moral standard than Dalinar.
 

The way I read it, Adolin has mixed feelings about his choices regarding Sadeas. He doesn’t suggest that killing him was wrong, but he feels that it was not entirely right either. He’s not a paragon of virtue, and Sadeas’ death is the biggest example everyone —including Adolin — keeps coming back to.

I think these feelings are a big part of Adolin’s eventual resolution. He can empathise with Dalinar and let him be just a person, because Adolin himself has done morally dubious things, and understands that sometimes people can’t be perfect.

Is it wrong to still have hoped for something a little more impactful? Something that might have shaken up Adolin enough to cause some friction with other characters he interacts with, not just Dalinar in RoW. Or his actions? He feels bitter but it doesn't in any way influence with how he conducts himself towards others.

Adolin remains as he has always been, a steadfast mental pillar for the characters he's sharing a scene with. He's the feel good character. Hell do the right thing no matter what. Killing Sadeas ended up sort of being the right thing to do. Even when he's thrust into a situation or subject he doesn't know much about he'll still end up doing the right thing by virtue of just being that good of a person.

Mind there's nothing wrong with all that was mentioned, but I can't help but think there's been more than just a couple of missed opportunities for some very fascinating character development. I guess after 3 books now, there no point in hoping for something more conclusive. BS just doesn't seem interested in writing about it.
 

[Zea mays]

Retribution might still dig up past crimes and use them against our protagonists. He did it very effectively against Jasnah in this book. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

4 hours ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

Is it wrong to still have hoped for something a little more impactful?

I do fully believe that by the time Brandon started writing Oathbringer, He was on Adolin's side. This is when Adolin became a main character and a very feel good character ( he wasn't evil before, but in OB he just becomes an overall amazing guy). So I think Brandon wanted Adolin to not suffer from doing, essentially, the right thing 

[Ailvara]

On 12/17/2024 at 5:11 PM, Zea mays said:

Retribution might still dig up past crimes and use them against our protagonists. He did it very effectively against Jasnah in this book. 

That's the reason I'd still like this addressed, even though I'm largely at peace with this topic after WaT.

That scene is a glimpse of a dark streak in Adolin. Whether you agree that Sadeas had to be killed on the spot or not, Adolin still takes too much pleasure in the act for it not to be considered dark. That's not to say he's a villain, or I think he should become one (I did before WaT, but I respect and enjoyed the journey he got instead - finally). Every character, every human has that streak. Even Paladin-Kaladin almost fell to Odium when leveraged properly. I don't fully buy that Odium wouldn't at least try to use that streak - even if he'd fail - as Adolin is in such a good place to do a lot of damage if swayed. That's just not too smart of Todium. Even less smart of Rayse if he had Moash next on his OC list (what a fail after trying for Dalinar and Kaladin). But I can headcanon that Rayse is just that uninspired, and that Taravangian was just too occupied with trying to break Dalinar and Jasnah. He also might not have seen any direct need for recruiting Adolin given his specific idea for the contest, and probably was also way too confident about taking Azimir.

I also like how Adolin mentions somewhere in this book that "a better man would have found another solution". TBH, that's all I'd needed from him at this point to acknowledge. Because yes, given the journeys of some other characters, who came face to face with someone dangerous who deserved to die, and they still made other choices, it's important to acknowledge that this wasn't the peak possible journey.

But then comes in Jasnah's debate and leaves one more inconsistency. All this time one of the core arguments was that Sadeas murder is no darker than what she did in that alley. But now that did come back eventually to bite her. Dalinar beating up Elhokar, also something that seemed necessary and fine at the point, even less dark, just maybe a tad too violent, it came back to bite him now, 4 books later. None of these choices was even condemned by the narrative as immoral in the process, but it constructed a theme of violence having long-running consequences regardless. So Sadeas murdes still bugs me a bit as a hole in this theme.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Ailvara

[KaladinWorldsinger]

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Adolin still takes too much pleasure in the act for it not to be considered dark.

I think there is pleasure in someone evil getting their comeuppance from, poetically, one of their victims themselves. So I would dispute that this was too dark. Adolin is a soldier, not a civilian. He has killed a looooot more people out of pure apathy(enemy soldiers, sure, still us vs them mentality like any other soldier). Honestly, the mass murder that a shardbearer commits is waay darker than anything done to Sadeas.