Do you guys think that there will be a natural mistborn in the future,not someone using medallionn.

[ruler of the mists He/His/the survivor of the pit]

I remember it being mentioned in the lost metal somewhere.

[Trusk'our he/him]

37 minutes ago, ruler of the mists said:

I remember it being mentioned in the lost metal somewhere.

I think it's likely. 

We know that originally a key component to era 3's plot is a Mistborn serial killer (though a lot has changed around its premise, so admittedly this could change too).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/204-goodreads-fantasy-book-discussion-warbreaker-qa/#e4494

Chris-Tina

My question: What exactly does the Mistborn sequel series entail?

Brandon Sanderson

Several hundred years after the original trilogy—Spoiler alert!—Wait, aren't these questions supposed to be about WARBREAKER?

Anyway, the Mistborn sequel trilogy, as I've said before, takes place in a more technologically advanced version of the world, several hundred years later. They've progressed beyond steam technology to combustion engine technology, are building skyscrapers—that level of technology. It will follow the exploits of a team of Allomancers who are kind of like an Allomantic SWAT team, a group of hybrid mercenary/deputized individuals who are brought in by the police to take out Allomancer criminals. The first book will deal with when they are called in to deal with a Mistborn serial killer. That's how it starts. It will go bizarre from there, of course, but think guns, cars, skyscrapers, and Allomancers.

Steris wanted one more child in TLM and Wax had become Mistborn on top of his natural Allomantic potential by the end. It's not enough to boost him to obscene levels of Investiture, but I think it's quite probable that a Mistborn could be born from his line over the next couple of generations before his augmented potential waned.

I do think that there are other options available for a Mistborn to show up though, such as the Malwish Consortium using the Bands to unlock new technology, Hemalurgy being advanced by the North's government (or some other individual or organization), or even Kelsier doing Bond shenanigans with a Ghostblood.

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I think it's likely. 

We know that originally a key component to era 3's plot is a Mistborn serial killer (though a lot has changed around its premise, so admittedly this could change too).

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/204-goodreads-fantasy-book-discussion-warbreaker-qa/#e4494

Chris-Tina

My question: What exactly does the Mistborn sequel series entail?

Brandon Sanderson

Several hundred years after the original trilogy—Spoiler alert!—Wait, aren't these questions supposed to be about WARBREAKER?

Anyway, the Mistborn sequel trilogy, as I've said before, takes place in a more technologically advanced version of the world, several hundred years later. They've progressed beyond steam technology to combustion engine technology, are building skyscrapers—that level of technology. It will follow the exploits of a team of Allomancers who are kind of like an Allomantic SWAT team, a group of hybrid mercenary/deputized individuals who are brought in by the police to take out Allomancer criminals. The first book will deal with when they are called in to deal with a Mistborn serial killer. That's how it starts. It will go bizarre from there, of course, but think guns, cars, skyscrapers, and Allomancers.

Steris wanted one more child in TLM and Wax had become Mistborn on top of his natural Allomantic potential by the end. It's not enough to boost him to obscene levels of Investiture, but I think it's quite probable that a Mistborn could be born from his line over the next couple of generations before his augmented potential waned.

I do think that there are other options available for a Mistborn to show up though, such as the Malwish Consortium using the Bands to unlock new technology, Hemalurgy being advanced by the North's government (or some other individual or organization), or even Kelsier doing Bond shenanigans with a Ghostblood.

On top of that, isnt there a reasonable chance that all the Bomb shenanigans (and ongoing Investiture Bomb development) might create trace amounts of Lerasium just like what happened to Wax? Which is hilarious to me because it would lead them to a Comicbook-esk era where their equivalent of the Cold War Nuclear Bomb tests literally do grant Superpowers instead of just cancer like RL nukes [insert Family Guy meme here].

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, Quantus said:

On top of that, isnt there a reasonable chance that all the Bomb shenanigans (and ongoing Investiture Bomb development) might create trace amounts of Lerasium just like what happened to Wax? Which is hilarious to me because it would lead them to a Comicbook-esk era where their equivalent of the Cold War Nuclear Bomb tests literally do grant Superpowers instead of just cancer like RL nukes [insert Family Guy meme here].

Maybe, but I'm hesitant to lean too far into this, as the Harmonium wasn't separated by Trellium, just blown up through its chemical reactivity. 

As such, I think it's unlikely that Lerasium and Atium were released into the ocean. 

[Quantus he/him]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Maybe, but I'm hesitant to lean too far into this, as the Harmonium wasn't separated by Trellium, just blown up through its chemical reactivity. 

As such, I think it's unlikely that Lerasium and Atium were released into the ocean. 

Fair point, but I think the same danger would exist in Bilming since they were doing all the secret underground Bomb testing that were being called earthquakes.  Presumably some of those were versions of the full trelluim design.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Fair point, but I think the same danger would exist in Bilming since they were doing all the secret underground Bomb testing that were being called earthquakes.  Presumably some of those were versions of the full trelluim design.

True, that slipped my mind. 

They didn't seem to get Lerasium from the process though, only Atium. Wax's experiment seems to have been unique for whatever reason. 

Before I had thought Sazed was lying to Kel at the end, but now I'm thinking it's more of a half-truth: yes, Lerasium was produced, but only once and now it's gone.

Atium residue is consistent though. I think this might be due to there being a higher concentration of Ruin in Harmony, which seeps into Harmonium. You blow it up and a small portion of Atium is left over because of the imbalance. 

Lerasium might have been available from Wax's experiment due to the Harmonium feeding on his Allomancy beforehand, tilting it towards Preservation more (or maybe because it's the Investiture of a Coinshot, pushing the pieces to separate more cleanly?), or perhaps because the Trellium held a certain Hemalurgic charge that changed the process.

There's a lot that could have happened, but I don't think Lerasium has been cracked yet, as it feels like Telsin would have used it more otherwise, either on herself or her minions. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

True, that slipped my mind. 

They didn't seem to get Lerasium from the process though, only Atium. Wax's experiment seems to have been unique for whatever reason. 

Before I had thought Sazed was lying to Kel at the end, but now I'm thinking it's more of a half-truth: yes, Lerasium was produced, but only once and now it's gone.

Atium residue is consistent though. I think this might be due to there being a higher concentration of Ruin in Harmony, which seeps into Harmonium. You blow it up and a small portion of Atium is left over because of the imbalance. 

Lerasium might have been available from Wax's experiment due to the Harmonium feeding on his Allomancy beforehand, tilting it towards Preservation more (or maybe because it's the Investiture of a Coinshot, pushing the pieces to separate more cleanly?), or perhaps because the Trellium held a certain Hemalurgic charge that changed the process.

There's a lot that could have happened, but I don't think Lerasium has been cracked yet, as it feels like Telsin would have used it more otherwise, either on herself or her minions. 

Allomantically charged Harmonium? Why did I never think of that before?

I don't know why the Set never discovered this by themselves, maybe they just didn't know and never checked since they were more interested in the giant explosion that reaction causes and never checked for trace amounts of it?

After all, Kandra are making Atium for Marsh so that should mean that they are now building up a stockpile of Lerasium.

Harmony may have told Kelsier that Lerasium is destroyed, but he also played coy said "Have I ever lied to you?" and we know for a rusting fact that he has so we can't take him at his word anymore.

So yeah, rogue mistborn made with Lerasium is a distinct possibility.

[Trusk'our he/him]

12 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Allomantically charged Harmonium? Why did I never think of that before?

I don't know why the Set never discovered this by themselves, maybe they just didn't know and never checked since they were more interested in the giant explosion that reaction causes and never checked for trace amounts of it?

After all, Kandra are making Atium for Marsh so that should mean that they are now building up a stockpile of Lerasium.

Harmony may have told Kelsier that Lerasium is destroyed, but he also played coy said "Have I ever lied to you?" and we know for a rusting fact that he has so we can't take him at his word anymore.

So yeah, rogue mistborn made with Lerasium is a distinct possibility.

There's also the possibility that Wax himself is the key to producing the Lerasium. 

We know he was specially chosen by Harmony to be his Sword, and was even able to breath in the Mists at times. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4-calamity-seattle-signing/#e5172

Questioner

Has Wax drawn on the mists at some point?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

I think it's plausible that Wax's unique Connection gave him some extra control over Harmony's essence, in this case Harmonium itself so it could be split more effectively with the right Intent. 

Or it could have been some other factor. There's too much we don't know to say for certain yet, but I'm currently betting on Wax's unique position being at least part of it.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

7 hours ago, ruler of the mists said:

I remember it being mentioned in the lost metal somewhere.

We may have to adjust our perception of "natural" a little (recall: scadrial itself was an artifical habitat to begin with) but otherwise?

Unequivocally and 100% yes. Completely foreign Investiture was leveraged by the Ire to successfully capture Preservation for a brief period of time. It...didn't exactly pan out the way that the invaders wished, wanted, or hoped for...but it demonstrated that an outside attacker can, with extreme preparation, Investment, and coordination, at least theoretically influence how a dying Shard gets inherited or reconstituted (at least temporarily).

I would argue that, if it's possible for a group of totally unaffiliated actors in the CR to seize Preservation (the literal source of Mistborn), then there is no plausible way that it is impossible for in-world actors to, either through manipulation, hacking, breeding, or pure random chance, to produce at least one mistborn eventually.

Not to put too fine a point on it...buuuuuut...For example: if you gave 100 trillion monkeys 1 quadrillion chances to write a full length novel, at least one of them would (and did!) successfully write Romeo and Juliet. 

(they only have to get it correct once, they can collaborate or compete as hard or soft as they want, and they don't have to show their work or prove how they did it for it to legitimately count. That's a recipe for guaranteed success as a function of time.)

Edited October 22, 2024 by hwiles

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Yes. The plan the Set had was in principal sound. You can breed a Mistborn, if you have enough Metalborn. Eventually somebody will do it.

[OoklaApologist She/her]

On 10/21/2024 at 3:40 PM, Trusk'our said:

They didn't seem to get Lerasium from the process though

It's possible that it was destroyed or vaporized. Remember that Wax became a weak mistborn through lerasium inhalation

On 10/21/2024 at 6:26 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

After all, Kandra are making Atium for Marsh so that should mean that they are now building up a stockpile of Lerasium.

Harmony may have told Kelsier that Lerasium is destroyed, but he also played coy said "Have I ever lied to you?" and we know for a rusting fact that he has so we can't take him at his word anymore.

Do you think it would work for Kelsier? I assume if it works for a kandra it will. 

[AleStaar he/him]

Yes. Sazed definitely has a plan for the lerasium dust he’s been ordering the kandra to secretly gather.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

7 hours ago, KelsierApologist said:

Do you think it would work for Kelsier? I assume if it works for a kandra it will

Harmony said no, whatever Kelsier has turned himself into has caused stuff like Lerasium and Hemalurgy to be ineffective at granting him powers.

I'm not even sure if he can use Medallions, it was implied by the fact that he was on an Airship, which requires the passengers to use Unsealed Ironminds to be lighter so it can fly. But on the other hand, Kelsier somehow made the Bands of Mourning, yet it's implied that he couldn't use them either due to the fact that he was 'still searching' for a way to use Allomancy again.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm not even sure if he can use Medallions, it was implied by the fact that he was on an Airship, which requires the passengers to use Unsealed Ironminds to be lighter so it can fly.

Also, Wax tapped a Coppermind in BoM that seemed to hold a memory of Kel's, suggesting he can probably use those.

I suppose it could have been a Kandra, but that feels a bit deliberately misleading to the readers.

Quote

But on the other hand, Kelsier somehow made the Bands of Mourning, yet it's implied that he couldn't use them either due to the fact that he was 'still searching' for a way to use Allomancy again.

We know he was involved in their creation, but we don't know if he ever weilded them directly. Perhaps Spook actually made them with Kelsier's Sliverism-aided guidance. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314-salt-lake-city-signing/#e8921

Questioner

So I've always wondered, the Bands of Mourning, the actual spearhead that Wax uses. Was that made by the Lord Ruler or the Sovereign, or--

Brandon Sanderson

No. It was not made by the Lord Ruler. The Sovereign was involved.

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, Wax tapped a Coppermind in BoM that seemed to hold a memory of Kel's, suggesting he can probably use those.

I suppose it could have been a Kandra, but that feels a bit deliberately misleading to the readers.

Oh yeah that's right.

Wonder why he made that? Proof of his existence to future generations of Southern Scadrians to ensure he'd remain very revered among them? Hard to refute a literal memory after all.

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

We know he was involved in their creation, but we don't know if he ever weilded them directly. Perhaps Spook actually made them with Kelsier's Sliverism-aided guidance. 

Well, the end of Secret History had Kelsier tempt Spook into using Hemalurgy to get Feruchemical powers, 'You're Mistborn Spook, halfway there.' And it was said by Allik that in order to make an Unsealed Metalmind that contained all the powers, you'd probably need someone who already had them all...

[Trusk'our he/him]

23 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Oh yeah that's right.

Wonder why he made that? Proof of his existence to future generations of Southern Scadrians to ensure he'd remain very revered among them? Hard to refute a literal memory after all.

Not totally sure, though he didn't want that information getting out, but Hoid fiddled with stuff as usual. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31-arcanum-unbounded-release-party/#e1727

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

 

Edited October 24, 2024 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

On 10/21/2024 at 10:40 PM, Trusk'our said:

They didn't seem to get Lerasium from the process though, only Atium. Wax's experiment seems to have been unique for whatever reason. 

Before I had thought Sazed was lying to Kel at the end, but now I'm thinking it's more of a half-truth: yes, Lerasium was produced, but only once and now it's gone.

Atium residue is consistent though. I think this might be due to there being a higher concentration of Ruin in Harmony, which seeps into Harmonium. You blow it up and a small portion of Atium is left over because of the imbalance. 

18 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Yes. Sazed definitely has a plan for the lerasium dust he’s been ordering the kandra to secretly gather.

I mostly agree with @Trusk'our - Lerasium was produced only once by Wax in his lab and Kandra were unable to replicate this process. I believe this is because Wax had a proper intent - he did the experiment without any desire to use god metals in any way, without any desire to change. 

However, I also believe that you can only create one god metal and it depends on your intent. You either create Lerasium or Atium, but never both. If you want to use products of Harmonium-Trellium reaction in any way or change yourself, you get only Atium, if you don't want to do that (or at most if you want to use it to Preserve someone) you get Lerasium.

TLM ch 15:

Quote

It took a good half hour to set the whole thing up. All the while, Wax wondered. What if he did split harmonium? He’d have two metals, the bodies of gods, each capable of incredible things from ancient lore, like manipulating time or creating beings with mythological Mistborn abilities. What if he had that power? What would that change about him?
Nothing, he thought to himself. I’ve held that power. And when I had it, I used it to save my friends.

So Sazed told a half-truth in my opinion - Wax created only Lerasium, Kandra tried to replicate this knowing god metals will be produced, so they had some desire to use it, thus they didn't get any Lerasium, they got only Atium. Set tried to split Harmonium specifically to gain power and control, they also unknowingly got only Atium in their tests (but they had never discovered it). 

But Wayne's explosion was just a Harmonium-water reaction, Harmonium was not split, no god metals were created, no Lerasium fallout. However, the Basin has a small stockpile of Harmonium and Trellium, they will create a few warheads in the future, so it's possible we will see Atium/Lerasium fallout, if they are used in the cold war scenario. Good catch @Quantus, it's fun to think that instead of a deadly radioactive fallout, you get fallout giving you magical powers. 

[AleStaar he/him]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I mostly agree with @Trusk'our - Lerasium was produced only once by Wax in his lab and Kandra were unable to replicate this process. I believe this is because Wax had a proper intent - he did the experiment without any desire to use god metals in any way, without any desire to change. 

However, I also believe that you can only create one god metal and it depends on your intent. You either create Lerasium or Atium, but never both. If you want to use products of Harmonium-Trellium reaction in any way or change yourself, you get only Atium, if you don't want to do that (or at most if you want to use it to Preserve someone) you get Lerasium.

While I won’t dismiss the possibility that the kandra were genuinely unable to replicate the same process as Wax, I really wouldn’t dismiss the possibility they do know. Especially when you consider the running theme of Sazed sending the kandra, or letting them go on independent incursions, while simultaneously watching and planning over them. 

And you should remember that Shardic planning is extremely subtle, done so mortals and fellow Shards don’t catch up onto obvious planning. Sazed’s future sight and godsight was only blinded for a year, Wayne’s death chapter confirmed Sazed was seeing the future during the blinding, and TLM’s Kelsier epilogue confirms he put a plan in motion in the years before the blinding.

Remember when Sazed sent Wax the note saying “You’ll need to make a second [earring], once the proper metal arrives.”

Sazed was tracking Marasi and Wayne’s mission of fighting Granks’ gang - who was pierced by trellium. And in this, Sazed had a lot of motives in mind. Including getting some lerasium into Wax and Wayne.

“Harmony puts people where they need to be, but then they must act. It is his way.”

 

Edited October 24, 2024 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer
Inserted quote from VenDell about Harmony’s methods

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

While I won’t dismiss the possibility that the kandra were genuinely unable to replicate the same process as Wax, I really wouldn’t dismiss the possibility they do know. Especially when you consider the running theme of Sazed sending the kandra, or letting them go on independent incursions, while simultaneously watching and planning over them. 

And you should remember that Shardic planning is extremely subtle, done so mortals and fellow Shards don’t catch up onto obvious planning. Sazed’s future sight and godsight was only blinded for a year, Wayne’s death chapter confirmed Sazed was seeing the future during the blinding, and TLM’s Kelsier epilogue confirms he put a plan in motion in the years before the blinding.

Remember when Sazed sent Wax the note saying “You’ll need to make a second [earring], once the proper metal arrives.”

Sazed was tracking Marasi and Wayne’s mission of fighting Granks’ gang - who was pierced by trellium. And in this, Sazed had a lot of motives in mind. Including getting some lerasium into Wax and Wayne.

“Harmony puts people where they need to be, but then they must act. It is his way.”

I didn't say that Sazed doesn't know, he certainly knows what's going on, but this doesn't change anything. Sazed is very, very careful when it comes to Shardic interventions, especially if it's sharing knowledge. You can see what he thinks about this in his conversations with Wax and Kel. He considers he made a mistake by sharing so much knowledge in the Words of Funding, now he doesn't tell people anything about science and technology - that includes Kandra. Kandra's knowledge of Feruchemy comes from the Words of Funding and their own experimentations, but not from Harmony - he didn't even tell them if the Band of Mourning were real or not. They all have to work and discover things on their own. Just because Sazed saw the future and knows how to produce Lerasium, doesn't mean Kandra knows this as well. And he already made use of Lerasium dust as instructed by his future visions (which weren't even that clear, as he didn't fully know why he needed Wax in Elendel and he didn't think he needed Wayne at all). So no, I don't think Kandra are making more Lerasium, they simply can't and Harmony doesn't want to make more mistakes by solving problems for them. 

[AleStaar he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

He considers he made a mistake by sharing so much knowledge in the Words of Funding, now he doesn't tell people anything about science and technology - that includes Kandra.

????

You might need to give Sazed’s talks another look. He only gave hints about future tech in the Words of Founding, not directly gave tech or too much info about future tech. And while humanity eventually succeeded in rediscovering artillery, inventing aviation, and discovering electricity, they fell behind in many other areas.

Sazed considers he made a mistake making the Basin a paradise. He considers he made a world where humanity doesn’t strive for anything or explore. This resulted in the Northerners diverting from his original prediction of inventing the radio 200 years after the Catacendre, staying in the tiny section of the continent, and neglecting to study irrigation and fertilization. They didn’t even invent (or perhaps rediscover) aviation until they saw the South’s airships.

He wants humanity and the kandra to discover phenomena and invent new technology. But he prefers to do it through hints and struggle, instead of conjuring up a radio or image projector. Or instead of detailing the steps and components to make them. He “accidentally” let it slip film is a possibility, in hopes the kandra will discover and might even spread it through the North.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Kandra's knowledge of Feruchemy comes from the Words of Funding and their own experimentations, but not from Harmony - he didn't even tell them if the Band of Mourning were real or not. They all have to work and discover things on their own.

Heck, you should remember that just by studying the Words of Founding, the kandra are passively receiving knowledge from Harmony. The Words were created partly through extremely powerful but extremely subtle future sight. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Just because Sazed saw the future and knows how to produce Lerasium, doesn't mean Kandra knows this as well.

I agree that this is plausible. Not certain, but plausible.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And he already made use of Lerasium dust as instructed by his future visions (which weren't even that clear, as he didn't fully know why he needed Wax in Elendel and he didn't think he needed Wayne at all).

Okay so I feel that bit was wordplay from Sazed’s part. Much like how he said he hears thoughts when someone wears Hemalurgic spikes, but not ONLY when they wear Hemalurgic spikes. 

7 years ago he didn't foresee Wayne would be the hero, but I think that is an example of his adaptability. Over the next 7 years, and possibly with a vague sense spanning decades, he still cultivated Wayne into the perfect Slider who would detonate the Set's bomb.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

So no, I don't think Kandra are making more Lerasium, they simply can't and Harmony doesn't want to make more mistakes by solving problems for them. 

That’s a reasonable conclusion. Well said. 

Edited October 25, 2024 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[alder24]

31 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

????

You might need to give Sazed’s talks another look. He only gave hints about future tech in the Words of Founding, not directly gave tech or too much info about future tech.

SoS ch 7:

Quote

You don’t explore, Harmony continued, ignoring Wax’s confusion. Why would you? You have everything you want here. You’ve barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books. Yet others, who were nearly destroyed …
I made a mistake with you, I now see.

TLM epilogue 4:

Quote

“People should discover it on their own,” Sazed said. “If they do not, there are subtle consequences. We should let the decades play out, becoming centuries, and let humankind find their own path to the cosmere—”

There was an awful amount of technological knowledge available in the Words of Funding, some of it came from Sazed's Coppermind (which contained knowledge often forgotten in TFE), some came from Sazed wanting to speed up progression even more. He literally included detailed city planning documents for Elendel in his books. 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

But he prefers to do it through hints and struggle, instead of conjuring up a radio or image projector. Or instead of detailing the steps and components to make them. He “accidentally” let it slip film is a possibility, in hopes the kandra will discover and might even spread it through the North.

This was very much contradicted by what Harmony said to Kel in TLM. He wants humanity to progress organically, even hinting is too much. Gods can make mistakes, Sazed is no different. 

51 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Heck, you should remember that just by studying the Words of Founding, the kandra are passively receiving knowledge from Harmony. The Words were created partly through extremely powerful but extremely subtle future sight. 

You know what I meant. Harmony doesn't directly share his knowledge with Kandra regarding technology and science. They have to discover everything on their own. They can't just ask him what F-nicrosil can do.

36 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Okay so I feel that bit was wordplay from Sazed’s part. Much like how he said he hears thoughts when someone wears Hemalurgic spikes, but not ONLY when they wear Hemalurgic spikes. 

7 years ago he didn't foresee Wayne would be the hero, but I think that is an example of his adaptability. Over the next 7 years, and possibly with a vague sense spanning decades, he still cultivated Wayne into the perfect Slider who would detonate the Set's bomb.

Don't think so. It looks like he didn't know until they were brainstorming ideas on the ship. Wayne was a happy accident. Fortune was at play here of course, but Sazed wasn't aware of Wayne's importance at all. TLM ch 71:

Quote

“I knew,” Harmony said softly, “that I had to bring Wax to Elendel. It is possible to see future needs. I understood it would be good to make this choice, though one doesn’t always know why. Even if one is a god.” He hesitated. “I thought I only needed Wax. It seems that I was wrong.”

And Harmony was certainly not in control during TLM. He miscalculated, he didn't know that he had a single day till disaster happened, he didn't expect Set to escalate things so quickly. He was panicking this entire time. He failed to resolve this problem without the help of Wax, he was losing against Autonomy over and over again. Kelsier was right - Sazed didn't have it in hand. TLM ch 19:

Quote

"I’ve lost games over and over against Autonomy, but I still have help I can send you. Some do not realize I was behind their mobilization. Yet I did not know the urgency of our task. I did not know their bomb might be ready. I am caught flat-footed. That was their goal, I think. So I must ask. Will you be my sword again, Waxillium?”

[AleStaar he/him]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

There was an awful amount of technological knowledge available in the Words of Funding, some of it came from Sazed's Coppermind (which contained knowledge often forgotten in TFE), some came from Sazed wanting to speed up progression even more. He literally included detailed city planning documents for Elendel in his books. 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

This was very much contradicted by what Harmony said to Kel in TLM. He wants humanity to progress organically, even hinting is too much. Gods can make mistakes, Sazed is no different.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

You know what I meant. Harmony doesn't directly share his knowledge with Kandra regarding technology and science. They have to discover everything on their own. They can't just ask him what F-nicrosil can do.

You’re trying to look at two different quotes in two different situations, and thinking they encompass the exact same regret. You’re looking at individual quotes without thinking about the full context. Sazed has many motives and regrets running simultaneously.

His regret in Shadows of Self is that he made the Basin a paradise - a capital city with the perfect climate, the ground that quickly grows plant life and always stays fertile. His motives in The Lost Metal are to let humanity find their own path towards future tech and the cosmere. Because of he does not, he foresees subtle consequences. 

Sazed can say “You’ve barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books,” while simultaneously having these worries, while simultaneously giving hints about future tech.

You need to think about the full context of Sazed’s contrast to Autonomy and Kelsier. The TLM quote from Sazed is in contrast to Autonomy’s methods and Kelsier’s desires.

Autonomy consistently shares with her people the things they can access with electricity and industry. Sazed doesn’t do this, but Kelsier wants him to. We can see this in Autonomy’s interactions with the Set. We don’t know the full context but something about her interactions, and Telsin’s plans and budding Avatar powers, lead Telsin to specifically know about and try to invent a self-propelled rocket.

So what happened when Telsin specifically tried to invent a self-propelled rocket under a strict deadline, meant to launch across a specific distance? Her results never worked because she lacked the time and freedom to experiment, learn, and repeat tests. Autonomy and her only focused on the outcomes and deadline, but rushed the journey towards them.

I believe those are the subtle consequences Sazed wants to avoid. He wants to cultivate a world where people don’t rely on God and his agents to solve all problems or remove all pain. He wants to cultivate a world where people enjoy, experience, and appreciate the journey towards his foreseen outcomes.

And so, he gives hints to future tech. You could argue it’s the same thing as Sazed giving tech, but it seems both Sazed and Kelsier know the subtle yet distinct difference. Autonomy would tell the kandra “this is film and it moves,” tell them the general principles of what they could do to invent film, but give them a deadline or place them in hypocritical restraints. Sazed tells the kandra “the evanoscope’s images can potentially move and requires a lot of metal,” then leaves them to figure out the journey. 

Sazed gave city planning documents for Elendel, but even when he was building what would be his greatest mistake, he was being extremely subtle. He didn’t tell humanity to build extra wide streets to accommodate specifically for cars. He didn’t tell humanity to build a city that would accommodate specifically for trains and railways used for travel throughout the city, or between Elendel and other cities. Elendel’s infrastructure was built long before Sazed’s planned accommodations came into play.

He didn’t give humanity blueprints detailing the exact purpose or structure of railways, electricity, and aviation. As Miles put it, the Words of Founding only gave hints of future tech worded in this fashion: “It is possible for men to take to the skies.”  

Sazed does bestow knowledge of tech, but in a very subtle way. But even in all this, he knows the mistake he made with the Basin’s paradise. Furthermore, you need to remember that Sazed’s minimum goal wasn’t to “speed up progression.” His minimum goal was to restore the world to its pre-Rashek technological level of 1820s-1830s tech, while keeping their future progression (i.e. the radio) in mind. Humanity managed to rediscover firearms, invent (rediscover?) railways and trains, and made advancements in metallurgy.

However, they’re slow and abysmal in many other areas. They don’t explore beyond the Basin, and don’t study irrigation or fertilization. Cars and electric lights were so new within the five months before Alloy of Law, they were still “the talk of the city.” They needed to be threatened by the South’s airships before inventing machine guns or experimenting with aviation. More than 24 years later (since before 324 PC), and their photographic processes haven’t developed beyond the first variations of the camera. It’s been more than 340 years since the Words’ gifting, and decades since they really started this, but the North has only made mediocre attempts at increasing production of the Spiritual metals, bendalloy, and cadmium. Even after discovering the South, it seems only the Set has the radio among all Northerners. 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Don't think so. It looks like he didn't know until they were brainstorming ideas on the ship. Wayne was a happy accident. Fortune was at play here of course, but Sazed wasn't aware of Wayne's importance at all. TLM ch 71:

 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

And Harmony was certainly not in control during TLM. He miscalculated, he didn't know that he had a single day till disaster happened, he didn't expect Set to escalate things so quickly. He was panicking this entire time. He failed to resolve this problem without the help of Wax, he was losing against Autonomy over and over again. Kelsier was right - Sazed didn't have it in hand. TLM ch 19:

Quote

I could talk about a bunch of stuff about Fortune and Preservation’s plan, but I won’t do that here. But I will say that in my opinion, this assumption makes no sense when you look at the timeline for The Lost Metal. As well as a key advantage not even Autonomy had: Sazed holds the power of Preservation. This power allows him to hear the thoughts of all Scadrians, is very all-encompassing, and persists through the sequence of Vessels. Enough so that its Vessel can use a loophole around “can’t read metal.”

Kelsier through this ability heard the thoughts of everyone, all across the empire. And he certainly used it to know exactly what Spook wrote in metal.

Vin used this (+ the power of looking into the past) to know the obligators at the Pits were writing instructions on metal. She knew atium was transported by caravans traveling from the Pits, concealed by gold and coins. She knew humans passed into the storage caverns.

And we saw how all-encompassing Fuzz’s knowledge and senses were in Secret History, to the point he was always overseeing the Southern Scadrians. To the point he talked to all passing souls for millennia, knew the precise locations (and plans) of various worldhoppers and used them in his plan for Kelsier, and knew all of Ruin’s plans even in his dying days. 

Sazed himself used this to know humans were in the storage caverns and Kredik Shaw’s basement, and to bring them together with the Homeland.

While I think Sazed was genuine about not knowing Trell’s true nature for much of Era 2, I think the length of his ignorance is questionable as The Lost Metal unfolded. As a mystery plot, part of The Lost Metal’s structure was seeing the Set’s timeline unfold. And in the process, you see that the Set were undergoing various activities long before Sazed was blinded and Set members were pierced with trellium. Sazed had much time to track the plans and possible futures of Miles, Edwarn, Gave, Telsin, and everything going on in Bilming.

Even in TLM we saw that Sazed was either tracking or planned for Granks operating in a cavern, and for Wayne and Marasi to interfere in Granks’ operations and get his trellium spike. The trellium spike that would then goad Wax into undergoing the experiment that would create the trellium earring, atium dust, and lerasium dust.

 

Edited October 26, 2024 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

You’re trying to look at two different quotes in two different situations, and thinking they encompass the exact same regret. You’re looking at individual quotes without thinking about the full context. Sazed has many motives and regrets running simultaneously.

[...]

I think you're trying to dig too deep for some hidden meaning. What Sazed said is pretty much self-explanatory - he created a paradise and he gave humanity some amount of new knowledge and hints about possible future tech in the Words of Funding, this made humanity lazy and stagnant, he now considers this as a mistake and thinks humanity should discover things on their own, without any Shardic intervention (hints included).

There is no evidence that Sazed's mention of film was an intentional play that was meant to encourage technological progression and discovery of film. Contrary, we have multiple evidence of Sazed being unwilling to say anything more than necessary and not sharing any truths or science advancement with people, kandra included. 

11 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I could talk about a bunch of stuff about Fortune and Preservation’s plan, but I won’t do that here. But I will say that in my opinion, this assumption makes no sense when you look at the timeline for The Lost Metal.

Too much to quote, just look again at TLM ch 19. He was not in control, he didn't know what was happening, he didn't know the danger was so imminent. He tried to fight against Autonomy, but was outplayed on every occasion. 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

As well as a key advantage not even Autonomy had: Sazed holds the power of Preservation. This power allows him to hear the thoughts of all Scadrians, is very all-encompassing, and persists through the sequence of Vessels.

And he's nice enough not to eavesdrop on people.

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Kelsier through this ability heard the thoughts of everyone, all across the empire. And he certainly used it to know exactly what Spook wrote in metal.

Because Kel personally dictated those words to Spook in his dream?

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Vin used this (+ the power of looking into the past) to know the obligators at the Pits were writing instructions on metal. She knew atium was transported by caravans traveling from the Pits, concealed by gold and coins. She knew humans passed into the storage caverns.

Only after Ruin discovered a Kandra who carried Atium out of the Trust. Those things require conscious effort, Sazed mind isn't infinite, he has to focus and search for things he knows about first to find what's important, otherwise he will simply miss it - just like Vin missed everything that was happening in the Kandra Homeland before Ruin's attention shifted there. 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

to the point he was always overseeing the Southern Scadrians.

He saw them because they are of his essence - it's not that hard.

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

And we saw how all-encompassing Fuzz’s knowledge and senses were in Secret History, to the point he was always overseeing the Southern Scadrians. To the point he talked to all passing souls for millennia, knew the precise locations (and plans) of various worldhoppers and used them in his plan for Kelsier, and knew all of Ruin’s plans even in his dying days. 

Leras was almost dead and mentally incapable of knowingly doing things to fulfill his grand plan. He forgot what his plan was, he was barely able to stand against Ruin at this point. He didn't even want Kelsier to leave to find Ire, he wanted him to stay by saying they can’t help him. He didn’t use them for his plans, not consciously. SH ch 3-2:

Quote

“I can’t help you do . . . whatever it is you think you’re doing. Not directly. I don’t . . . think well enough anymore. But . . .”

SH ch 3-3:

Quote

“They can’t help us,” Preservation said. “They’re . . . they’re callous. They plot over my corpse like scavenging insects waiting for the last beat of the heart. Don’t go. Don’t leave me.”

 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

While I think Sazed was genuine about not knowing Trell’s true nature for much of Era 2, I think the length of his ignorance is questionable as The Lost Metal unfolded.

He knows Set was building a bomb and planned to use it, he knows there is Autonomy's army coming to destroy Scadrial, he knows and pre-planned some things (like Marasi meeting Ghostblood), but he said it himself - he couldn't see, he didn't know what Trell and set were doing, he was caught off-guard by Wax's discovery. He didn't know the bomb was ready, he didn't know the danger was right here and now. He went into a full panic mode and the fact that he was blinded only made things worse. 

Sure, he knew a lot more than he knew in SoS and BoM, mainly because Autonomy revealed herself to him and gave him an ultimatum - after he was blinded. He could still see something, but only because the danger was so near.

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

And in the process, you see that the Set were undergoing various activities long before Sazed was blinded and Set members were pierced with trellium.

Those things from the future would ripple back and affect Sazed's ability to see even before they happened. That's how SR works - all things are one in the Spiritual Realms and things from the future can echo back, affecting you in the present. 

Slight SA spoilers:

Spoiler

stargeak

In Mistborn 5, Shadows of Self, Wax chases Bleeder into the mist after the party where she was speaking in his mind to taunt him. As Wax jumps into the mist to follow, he has an internal monologue thinking about Vin. He says he can see her vaguely within the mist.

"Slight of frame, short hair splayed out as she moved, mistcloak fluttering behind her. It was a fancy, wasn't it?"

Has the mist become a self aware Splinter of Harmony similar to how the Stormfather operated with Honor? Also, since the mist "tuned" Vin to be able to take the Shard of Preservation, does the mist remember Vin in some form? And is it still connected to her similar to how a Returned is connected to their former self?

Brandon Sanderson

You're making some excellent theories here; I'm not sure if I want to stamp any of them out. I like where you're going on this. I will say that this is related to where, if you read in Words of Radiance, you will see odd things sometimes happen with Investiture. There is a scene (that I don't think a lot of people pick up on) where Syl is responding to Connection threads being built and is looking different than she should look and things like this. We're looking more at the Spiritual Realm and Spirit Webs and Connections and things like that. Not to stamp out any of your theories, but also to kind of direct you—often times when I'm writing pure Investiture or beings of Investiture.

I'll leave it there. Continue theorizing but go that direction.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Full SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Sazed had much time to track the plans and possible futures of Miles, Edwarn, Gave, Telsin, and everything going on in Bilming.

Seeing infinite possibilities isn't that useful, it's hard to make use of them and it's wrong to rely on them too much. Bilming was a blind spot for Sazed. TLM ch 71:

Quote

“I can see probabilities,” Harmony said. “I can see what might happen. It is, at times, frustrating.”

SH 3-3:

Quote

“The ribbons of the future are never as useful as . . . as they should be,” Preservation said. “I rode them much, in the past. It’s too hard to see what is actually likely, and what is just a fragile . . . fragile, distant maybe. . . .”
[...]
“Do not trust what you saw,” Preservation said, sounding far more firm than he had earlier. “It takes an infinite mind to even begin to glean information from those tendrils of the future. Even then you are likely to be wrong.”

 

[AleStaar he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think you're trying to dig too deep for some hidden meaning. What Sazed said is pretty much self-explanatory - he created a paradise and he gave humanity some amount of new knowledge and hints about possible future tech in the Words of Funding, this made humanity lazy and stagnant, he now considers this as a mistake and thinks humanity should discover things on their own, without any Shardic intervention (hints included).

No, I’m not. Because trying to say Sazed only has one specific worry without any nuance makes no sense. The point of his character in Era 2 is that even though he’s a god, he has many worries just like a human.

He made multiple goals when making the Words of Founding - build humanity up from their state of nothingness, restore their technological level to 1820s-1830s level tech, and account for future possibilities of technological progression. Sazed sicceeded in some ways but failed in others. He gave minor hints about aviation, but humanity ignored them because they had everything in the Basin. He definitely gave detailed information about irrigation and fertilization, but humanity ignored it because the Basin gave all the food they want.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Too much to quote, just look again at TLM ch 19. He was not in control, he didn't know what was happening, he didn't know the danger was so imminent. He tried to fight against Autonomy, but was outplayed on every occasion. 

That’s what he says. But when you look at his precise plans in any book before TLM, and the timeline, I feel like it’s a necessity to think “Sazed knew all of this. There was nothing blinding his future sight or godsight.”

He knew about the Vanishers’ activities in Weathering and Elendel, and there was nothing preventing Sazed from overseeing Edwarn’s projects without him knowing. So he saw into their plans and possible futures, and subtly sent Wax to stop them. I also believe this was when he was extremely adaptable, because he had 5 months between Wax’s return and The Alloy of Law to realize Wayne’s role. Not to mention the six years afterwards, before the blinding. Even though he didn’t know he needed Wayne 7 years and 5 months ago, he had plenty of time to make the realization and cultivate Wayne into the perfect Slider.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And he's nice enough not to eavesdrop on people.

Charming. But this is headcanon with nothing to support it. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Because Kel personally dictated those words to Spook in his dream?

What are you even talking about? The only words Kelsier dictated to Spook that made their way into the metal note were “Don’t trust anyone pierced by metal! Even the smallest bit can taint a man.”

Everything else came from Spook.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Only after Ruin discovered a Kandra who carried Atium out of the Trust. Those things require conscious effort, Sazed mind isn't infinite, he has to focus and search for things he knows about first to find what's important, otherwise he will simply miss it - just like Vin missed everything that was happening in the Kandra Homeland before Ruin's attention shifted there. 

You know what I meant. It takes time for a Vessel to learn how to pull off the all-encompassing awareness we saw from Leras’ dying days. Because, technically, even his dying remnant has the experience of splitting his mind into countless places that watch over events and dying people.

Even then, the passage is written in a way where it seems Vin’s heightened mind wasn’t making connections and seeing the past because she directly willed it. Preservation’s power passively showed her the connections and the past. 

Vin did not have the time or freedom. Sazed does in the decades and centuries before he was blinded. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

He saw them because they are of his essence - it's not that hard.

Same for Sazed towards the Southern Scadrians, the explorers and people in the Roughs, and any Set member not pierced by trellium. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Leras was almost dead and mentally incapable of knowingly doing things to fulfill his grand plan. He forgot what his plan was, he was barely able to stand against Ruin at this point. He didn't even want Kelsier to leave to find Ire, he wanted him to stay by saying they can’t help him. He didn’t use them for his plans, not consciously.

At that point. But nothing about the story indicates his memory was always as impotent as in Secret History, even as he was declining throughout millennia.

In fact, the story implies he deliberately did things for the sake of his grand plan throughout the millennia. Even if he no longer remembered the plan. For example Preservation hid hints from Ruin in all of humanity’s religions for the Hero to find, and there’s no way he did THAT before imprisoning Ruin. 

Telling people to survive and making them into Cognitive Shadows is decidedly not normal behavior for Preservation, or normal phenomena on Scadrial. And yet, Preservation did both only for Kelsier. Despite watching over millennia of people dying and suffering, despite watching over 1000 years of torture and pain at the Pits of Hathsin, and despite being the Shard that would most want people to be immortal and live. 

Not to mention Kelsier has the sign of 16 that’s persistent throughout the plan. He spent 16 months in the Pits. Then there’s the coincidence that Kelsier heard Preservation’s command to survive on the night of Mare’s death, which was exactly the night when he Snapped and escaped the Pits. It should be no debate that Preservation deliberately planned for Kelsier to a piece of his plan. The question here should be “how detailed was the plan?”

Did he plan for Kelsier to be the thief and revolutionary that would end the Final Empire? Did he plan for Kelsier to be the mentor, that would cultivate Vin into the Mistborn and Vessel willing to sacrifice her life and kill to protect others? Did he plan for Kelsier to steal the Ire’s orb? Did he plan for Kelsier to take the Shard before Ruin Splinters it, then give up literal godhood to Vin?

Or maybe he accounted for all of these at once? We don’t know. But they’re all plausible, since Ruin and the Ire were orchestrating dangerous plans that Preservation knew about. And as Sanderson loves to write, everything that Ruin manipulated was part of Preservation’s Plan. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Leras was almost dead and mentally incapable of knowingly doing things to fulfill his grand plan. He forgot what his plan was, he was barely able to stand against Ruin at this point. He didn't even want Kelsier to leave to find Ire, he wanted him to stay by saying they can’t help him. He didn’t use them for his plans, not consciously.

…. Why? You’re overthinking with this. The WoB doesn’t talk about the future. It only talks about how the past is connected the present. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Seeing infinite possibilities isn't that useful, it's hard to make use of them and it's wrong to rely on them too much. Bilming was a blind spot for Sazed.

Bilming was a blind spot for Sazed for a year.

Preservation’s plan wasn’t strictly about seeing future possibilities. He saw the outcomes he desired, but saw he needed several sacrifices and millennia of planning to achieve those outcomes. As you fabled Stormlight fans (of which I will hopefully be once I read Way of Kings), may put it, Preservation’s plan was undergoing the Journey Before the Destination. And he didn’t 100% know if or how the Destination would be achieved, especially since the Destination had low probabilities of occurring.

Edited October 26, 2024 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

No, I’m not. Because trying to say Sazed only has one specific worry without any nuance makes no sense. The point of his character in Era 2 is that even though he’s a god, he has many worries just like a human.

He made multiple goals when making the Words of Founding - build humanity up from their state of nothingness, restore their technological level to 1820s-1830s level tech, and account for future possibilities of technological progression. Sazed sicceeded in some ways but failed in others. He gave minor hints about aviation, but humanity ignored them because they had everything in the Basin. He definitely gave detailed information about irrigation and fertilization, but humanity ignored it because the Basin gave all the food they want.

Of course he does, but that's not the point. He clearly said he gave them knowledge (among many other things), he clearly admitted that was a mistake, he clearly said he believes people should discover things on their own. He learned from his mistakes. As you pointed out, he is still just like any other human - prone to be wrong, prone to making mistakes and false judgements, but just like any other human, he's able to learn from them. He is still very fresh as a Vessel, he's missing human interaction, he's very inexperienced and he doesn't really know what he's doing. He's a flawed person who somehow gets a hold of an infinite power of a god - that's what Cosmere is all about. Giving more hints about technology is against Sazed's policy right now - there is no proof he intentionally revealed the idea of a film to Kandra. SoS ch 7:

Quote

I made a mistake with you, I now see. I still make many. Does that ruin your faith, Waxillium? Does it worry you that your God is fallible?
“You never claimed to be infallible, so far as I remember.”

 

3 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

That’s what he says. But when you look at his precise plans in any book before TLM, and the timeline, I feel like it’s a necessity to think “Sazed knew all of this. There was nothing blinding his future sight or godsight.”

He knew about the Vanishers’ activities in Weathering and Elendel, and there was nothing preventing Sazed from overseeing Edwarn’s projects without him knowing. So he saw into their plans and possible futures, and subtly sent Wax to stop them. I also believe this was when he was extremely adaptable, because he had 5 months between Wax’s return and The Alloy of Law to realize Wayne’s role. Not to mention the six years afterwards, before the blinding. Even though he didn’t know he needed Wayne 7 years and 5 months ago, he had plenty of time to make the realization and cultivate Wayne into the perfect Slider.

Precise plans? He knew all of this? He knew it here for example? SoS ch 7:

Quote

No, not in this case. I can directly control a being who has pierced herself with too much Hemalurgy. In this case I would act, for Bleeder has disobeyed her Contract with me and opened herself up for my intervention. Something is wrong, unfortunately.
“What?” Wax asked.
God was silent for a time. I don’t know yet.

Or here? SoS epilogue:

Quote

“It’s not a metal Harmony knows,” MeLaan said.

Maybe here? BoM ch 28:

Quote

You didn’t tell me what it was,” Wax said.
“That is because I do not know.”

Certainly as you said, he knew exactly what was about to happen in Bilming before TLM - oh wait, never mind that, he didn't. TLM ch 17:

Quote

“No,” Harmony said softly. “It Invested the planet. Invested … me. What you saw was a shroud, Waxillium. I responded too slowly. It is … a failing that grows more dangerous in me. By the time I realized what was happening, that shroud had come over me. It doesn’t hurt, it merely dampens my ability to see.”
“You mean…”
“I don’t know what’s happening,” Harmony said softly, staring down at the planet. “What is Trell doing? What are they planning? They put that haze up as a kind of smoke screen. When I attacked it, the haze infected my ability to see the future. Temporarily. I will be rid of it in a few years. That’s nothing on the timescale of gods. And yet…”
“And yet, the danger is right now.”
“Yes,” Harmony said. “Like a nearsighted person, I can see the danger now that it has come very close.” He hesitated, then looked to Wax. “I can see you, hear you. We are Connected. And so, I know what you’ve discovered. I thought I had more time. I realize only now that I have been moving too slowly. Yet again, too slowly…”
[...]
"Wax, I have tried to handle this in other ways. I have failed. And so, I come back to the one weapon I’ve always been able to rely upon.”
[...]
“I’m sorry. I had not realized she would go this far.”
[...]
"I’ve lost games over and over against Autonomy, but I still have help I can send you. Some do not realize I was behind their mobilization. Yet I did not know the urgency of our task. I did not know their bomb might be ready. I am caught flat-footed. That was their goal, I think."
[...]
“Perhaps. I do not know her ultimate plan. I’m sorry.”

And of course, the evidence for the fact that he didn't realize what Wayne's role was in all of this until the very end. TLM ch 71:

Quote

“I knew,” Harmony said softly, “that I had to bring Wax to Elendel. It is possible to see future needs. I understood it would be good to make this choice, though one doesn’t always know why. Even if one is a god.” He hesitated. “I thought I only needed Wax. It seems that I was wrong.”

The future sight didn't make Sazed know all what was about to happen, it showed him billions of possibilities, it was up to him to determine which ones were likely to happen and even then he missed a lot. The further you look into the future, the harder it is to predict anything. Sazed isn't omniscient, he doesn't know everything, he can't see everything, can't be everywhere, he isn't infinite. The future sight has its limits and you simply CAN'T know what will happen - you can only guess and hope for the best. That's what Sazed was doing all this time and at every point he was outplayed by Autonomy. He was not in control at all, he didn't have a master plan accounting for all possible scenarios - he was reacting to what was happening and got Fortunate in the end.

And yes, he had his own plans, he did his own moves, tried to resolve the problem on his terms, he did a lot, he prepared for this in advance, but at every point he was outplayed by Autonomy. All his victories throughout MB 4-6 in the end weren't as important as what was about to happen in TLM. Defeating Vanishers was insignificant, Bleeder was a minor inconvenience, the Bands were a dead end - it all came down to the Bilming. He was outplayed by Autonomy, who wasn't even Invested on Scadrial - he was playing checkers, while she was playing 3d chess via a zoom call from Mars - he got lucky by turning off the internet at the last moment.

I'm not trying to say he did a terrible job, he did a very good job, the best he could despite his inexperience and very limited knowledge. He knew the danger was coming, he knew he needed Wax without knowing why, he tried to prepare and yet he was caught off-guard in the end. 

3 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Charming. But this is headcanon with nothing to support it. 

SoS ch 7:

Quote

You can hear my thoughts?” Wax asked.
When you have the earring in, yes. I gain the ability to hear you from Preservation, and the ability to speak to you from Ruin.

 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

What are you even talking about? The only words Kelsier dictated to Spook that made their way into the metal note were “Don’t trust anyone pierced by metal! Even the smallest bit can taint a man.”

Everything else came from Spook.

Yeah, sure he could know, but that's irrelevant, isn't it? At no point in SH did Kelsier recite the exact words that were written on that plate. He knew Spook sent his message and that was the whole point of it. I don't know what you want to prove by bringing this example up.

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

You know what I meant. It takes time for a Vessel to learn how to pull off the all-encompassing awareness we saw from Leras’ dying days. Because, technically, even his dying remnant has the experience of splitting his mind into countless places that watch over events and dying people.

Even then, the passage is written in a way where it seems Vin’s heightened mind wasn’t making connections and seeing the past because she directly willed it. Preservation’s power passively showed her the connections and the past. 

Vin did not have the time or freedom. Sazed does in the decades and centuries before he was blinded. 

The Vessel CAN'T ever achieve "all-encompassing awareness" because their mind is not infinite. It takes a conscious effort to realize something and if the Vessel doesn't know, they can't realize it. Vin didn't know about Leras' plan and the location of Atium, he only realized it when Ruin discovered it - that's why she could see the past because the Power knew it, saw it, witnessed it, but Vin didn't know the Power knew and didn't search for it. 

Spoiler

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

[...]

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

When somebody takes up a Shard, do they inherently get knowledge when they get that Shard? [spoilers removed]

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. Taking up a Shard is going to impart a large amount of knowledge, more than even a Shard can process immediately, and it will take some time. And it's going to give you the ability to access a lot of other kinds of knowledge. Shards aren't omnipresent, but they kind of are; they are able to do many things at once, they are able to focus on places and be aware of that location in a lot of instances. But at the same time, they are limited in their ability to... they don't know everything. They might be able to get access to most things, but it takes conscious... like, "I need to know this. I need to find it out. It happens it's written in a book that I can just... it's on this other planet, and I absorb it and immediately know." Assuming it's not written in a way that you can't access, which certain formats make it hard to do.

[...]

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

And Leras' "all-encompassing awareness we saw from his dying days" was so bad that he couldn't concentrate on two separate locations - just Kelsier talking was enough to distract him when he tried to stop Vin via Sazed in SH ch 2-3. Leras' mind was gone, he was a shell of what he used to be, nearly mindless. The power had more mind that he had and it acted on its own choosing a new Vessel, which was Vin. Leras from the past did predict that, Leras from the present knew that, but Leras from the present lost most of his capabilities, future sight abilities and knowledge. He was barely holding on. 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

At that point. But nothing about the story indicates his memory was always as impotent as in Secret History, even as he was declining throughout millennia.

It was a slow decline happening over thousands of years.

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Telling people to survive and making them into Cognitive Shadows is decidedly not normal behavior for Preservation, or normal phenomena on Scadrial. And yet, Preservation did both only for Kelsier. Despite watching over millennia of people dying and suffering, despite watching over 1000 years of torture and pain at the Pits of Hathsin, and despite being the Shard that would most want people to be immortal and live. 

Not to mention Kelsier has the sign of 16 that’s persistent throughout the plan. He spent 16 months in the Pits. Then there’s the coincidence that Kelsier heard Preservation’s command to survive on the night of Mare’s death, which was exactly the night when he Snapped and escaped the Pits. It should be no debate that Preservation deliberately planned for Kelsier to a piece of his plan. The question here should be “how detailed was the plan?”

I will debate this. The present Leras had no idea what Kelsier's place was in all of this, which is evident by the text. The past Leras might have predicted Kelsier's involvement. However, I will dare to raise an interesting possibility - he didn't predict Kel at all in his grant plan. Kelsier was a happy accident, a result of events unfolding over thousands of years. The distant future can't be known, it can be guessed at best, but even then something will be wrong. Preservation had excellent future sight abilities, but it's impossible for him to predict everything. And those small mistakes accumulated to the point that Kelsier was needed as a correction, to make the future happen as Preservation wanted thousands of years ago. He was the right person, at the right time, doing the right thing. When we're dealing with predictions so distant, there will always be discrepancies unaccounted for. 

The present Preservation had mostly no idea how important Kelsier is. He might have seen that Kel was needed to train Vin, he might have seen that making Kel into a Cognitive Shadow was beneficial in some one (but only in the very moment he did that, because earlier he urged him to move on), he might have seen that Kel will help Vin Ascend. But all of that was merely a reaction to what was happening at a given moment, not a part of present Leras' plan. Past Leras' play maybe, we don't know.

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Did he plan for Kelsier to be the thief and revolutionary that would end the Final Empire?

Present Leras didn't want that at all, just look how he reacted to Rashek's death. 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Did he plan for Kelsier to be the mentor, that would cultivate Vin into the Mistborn and Vessel willing to sacrifice her life and kill to protect others?

Possible.

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Did he plan for Kelsier to steal the Ire’s orb?

No, present Leras didn't want Kel to leave at first.

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Did he plan for Kelsier to take the Shard before Ruin Splinters it, then give up literal godhood to Vin?

Not present Leras.

Past Leras before imprisoning Ruin might have been able to predict this all. Might. 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

And as Sanderson loves to write, everything that Ruin manipulated was part of Preservation’s Plan. 

I would argue, he made sure that no matter of Ruin's manipulations, his message would still be known when the time comes. 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

…. Why? You’re overthinking with this. The WoB doesn’t talk about the future. It only talks about how the past is connected the present. 

I'm guessing you were responding to two SA WoBs, so I will quote a fragment from the second WoB without spoilers:

Quote

There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that.

Things from the future will affect things before they happen because in the Spiritual Realm everything is one and time is irrelevant. Harmony being blinded before TLM affected his ability to see the future in some way long before Era 2. His inability to see Set members spiked by Trellium, would cause ripples back in time, which would affect Sazed. Even Set members that weren't spiked, by sheer proximity to Telsin and other Trellium bearers, would be harder to see for Harmony. 

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

As you fabled Stormlight fans

Nah, I'm a Warbreaker fan in the frst place.