Do Skybreakers use Division?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

This may seem an odd question, as the chart is clear and Szeth outright says that he is capable of using it. But that does not rule out that there is a good reason they don't use it. So my question: Have we ever seen a Skybreaker use Division, even in a situation where logically speaking they should have used it? Nale does all his killings with a Shardblade. He does not use Division to fight Lift. Why?

Is that a part of the price they paid for going on? Did they have to give up the use of one of their Surges?

[morcey2]

So far, the only time they've used Division has been when they need to split the check at Maib's Place on the Purelake.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

This may seem an odd question, as the chart is clear and Szeth outright says that he is capable of using it. But that does not rule out that there is a good reason they don't use it. So my question: Have we ever seen a Skybreaker use Division, even in a situation where logically speaking they should have used it? Nale does all his killings with a Shardblade. He does not use Division to fight Lift. Why?

Is that a part of the price they paid for going on? Did they have to give up the use of one of their Surges?

Most situations we've seen the Skybreakers in didn't really require the use of Division.

Maybe there's even a cultural bias against it, since the Dustbringers (Who are prolific for its use) were disliked by the ancient Radiants.

Maybe the Burning of Ashyn was caused by super-charged Division, since Division is also said to 'burn' things and Ashyn used to have Bondsmiths and Elsecallers. So maybe that could be an old wound that reverberated throughout the culture of the Radiants, leading to its use being much more prohibited than other Surges?

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

This may seem an odd question, as the chart is clear and Szeth outright says that he is capable of using it. But that does not rule out that there is a good reason they don't use it. So my question: Have we ever seen a Skybreaker use Division, even in a situation where logically speaking they should have used it? Nale does all his killings with a Shardblade. He does not use Division to fight Lift. Why?

Is that a part of the price they paid for going on? Did they have to give up the use of one of their Surges?

We've never seen any Skybreakers using Division but to be fair we haven't seen a lot of higher Oath Skybreakers fighting - I think only Nale did this on pages and he didn't even use Gravitation to fight Lift. The simplest explanation is that in situations we've seen Skybreakers, they just didn't need to use it at all. Nale is an extremely skillful fighter, he doesn't need to use Surges to deal with Radiants like Lift. 

They certainly didn't give up Division - Nale said to Szeth at the end of OB that they will meet to train with this Surge. They've never done that, but this indicates Skybreakers have access to it, are trained with it and can use it. 

And it's possible that because of how dangerous this Surge is, it's the spren that decides whether or not to use it. I doubt it however. This Surge is already limited to be accessed only by those above the 3rd Ideal, the training of it starts when the Spren decides, it would be too much if a Skybreaker couldn't decide on they own to use it. 

OB ch 121:

Quote

"I will visit you again to oversee your training in our second art, the Surge of Division. You may access that now, but take care. It is dangerous."

 

[Sophrosyne he/him]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

This may seem an odd question, as the chart is clear and Szeth outright says that he is capable of using it.

Love odd questions! 
Like Alder said, they haven't used it on screen. Knowing that different orders use the same surge differently I suspect that Skybreaker Division is EXTRA dangerous in some way (My guess is it's spiritual in nature). and that's why they refrain whenever possible.

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

He does not use Division to fight Lift. Why?

Nale's cocky and Lift was only the 2nd ideal so more then abit over kill.
 

 

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Is that a part of the price they paid for going on? Did they have to give up the use of one of their Surges?

Again like Alder said. They have it 100% sure of that, we just haven't seen it.

[Etedbert he/him]

In addition to the points people made above, I think it’s clear that the lack of division use is cultural. We see the Skybreakers and the Highspren have a much more codified path of ideals. Szeth is explicitly told that his spren does not think he is ready for division, despite approaching 4th ideal. And with Nale wanting to train him in it before he has free rein, it’s almost like a sort of licensure. Very fitting for the Highspren, and another unique representation among the radiant orders.

I’m curious how much control the Highspren have over their radiant’s use of the surge however. It reminds me of in OB when Dalinar is having a panic attack in Vedenar and forcibly summons a piece of Honor’s perpendicularity against the Stormfather’s wishes. In an impassioned moment, could Szeth blow past whatever safeguards his Highspren has to use Division? Division certainly reminds me of the “homeland crumbles to dust” death rattle…

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Etedbert said:

I’m curious how much control the Highspren have over their radiant’s use of the surge however. It reminds me of in OB when Dalinar is having a panic attack in Vedenar and forcibly summons a piece of Honor’s perpendicularity against the Stormfather’s wishes. In an impassioned moment, could Szeth blow past whatever safeguards his Highspren has to use Division? Division certainly reminds me of the “homeland crumbles to dust” death rattle…

Dalinar summond a physical piece of the Stormfather like a Shardblade to open the Oathgate in Vedenar. At that point Dalinar didn't know he can open a perpendicularlity. 

I think a spren can block the access to Surges if their use is against spoken Ideals. In WoR Syl revoked all powers from Kaladin during a training session with Adolin, when Kaladin got angry. 

[Lenth]

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Dalinar summond a physical piece of the Stormfather like a Shardblade to open the Oathgate in Vedenar. At that point Dalinar didn't know he can open a perpendicularlity. 

I think a spren can block the access to Surges if their use is against spoken Ideals. In WoR Syl revoked all powers from Kaladin during a training session with Adolin, when Kaladin got angry. 

Did Sylphrena revoke the powers, or did they just leave him because of how he was breaking his oaths? It seemed more like the latter to me.

I wonder how far this goes. Like, could a Windrunner use a Lashing to kill someone they were sworn to protect, or would they lose the Stormlight before they could?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Lenth said:

Did Sylphrena revoke the powers, or did they just leave him because of how he was breaking his oaths? It seemed more like the latter to me.

I wonder how far this goes. Like, could a Windrunner use a Lashing to kill someone they were sworn to protect, or would they lose the Stormlight before they could?

Unclear from the text. But whether or not a knight breaks their Oaths depends on the perception of both the knight and their spren. If Syl thought this was wrong it should be enough to deny Kal his powers. WoR ch 19:

Quote

“What happened?” Kaladin asked. “The Stormlight drained from me. I felti t go.”

“Who were you protecting?” Syl asked.

“I . . . I was practicing how to fight, like when I practiced with Skar and Rock down in the chasms.”

“Is that really what you were doing?” Syl asked.

He didn’t know.

 

Spoiler

[...]

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

[Isilel]

On 10/7/2024 at 11:54 PM, Oltux72 said:

Have we ever seen a Skybreaker use Division, even in a situation where logically speaking they should have used it?

 

Skybreakers are used to operating secretly, without revealing their Radiance to any onlookers. So, their use of surges in general was very limited until recently - Szeth noted their squires lack of skill with Gravitation  back in OB. IIRC, the only reason any training was happening at all was the Desolation. Effects of Division are impossible to conceal, which explains why we didn't see it used until now.

I am also under impression that Nale and the Skybreakers are unhappy about the side that they found themselves on, so while they feel compelled to fight for the singers/Odium, they haven't been giving their all. We are likely to see some Division in WaT, I imagine. 

[Lenth]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Unclear from the text. But whether or not a knight breaks their Oaths depends on the perception of both the knight and their spren. If Syl thought this was wrong it should be enough to deny Kal his powers. WoR ch 19:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

[...]

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

Thanks for the Word of Brandon.

I hope we see more about how that interplay works between the perspectives of a Radiant and their spren. It seems to me that the spren's opinion seems to have priority.