Dawncities

[therunner he/him]

I would like to propose that Dawncities were spren-cities, similar to what Urithiru is.

First possible hint of this is in Oathbringer, where on p. 611 Kaladin notes that the strata in Kholinar look like those of Urithiru.

Second, we now know that there were other ancient spren, such as Wind (possibly Stone), and they might not have been singular.

As a corollary, I would propose that spren of Dawncities became Unmade.
They were Made (into the Dawncities) and then Unmade (and cities partially broken with only some larger patterns remaining).

Second corollary, Shattered Plains were Shattered when Odium made failed attempt to form tenth Unmade from the spren of Stormseat (possibly due to Honor intervening).

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

Oooo, I like this as a theory! Who do you think matches up with which city?

Definitely Nergaoul with Kholinar.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I would like to propose that Dawncities were spren-cities, similar to what Urithiru is.

First possible hint of this is in Oathbringer, where on p. 611 Kaladin notes that the strata in Kholinar look like those of Urithiru.

Second, we now know that there were other ancient spren, such as Wind (possibly Stone), and they might not have been singular.

As a corollary, I would propose that spren of Dawncities became Unmade.
They were Made (into the Dawncities) and then Unmade (and cities partially broken with only some larger patterns remaining).

Second corollary, Shattered Plains were Shattered when Odium made failed attempt to form tenth Unmade from the spren of Stormseat (possibly due to Honor intervening).

I fully agree that Dawncities are strongly related to Urithiru because of their look. This is an interesting proposition and I think it's very likely. It all depends if the Sibling after Unmaking would still be bound to Urithiru or be free like other Unmades - which we don't know. But this does explain why they are so similar, why there are no spren manifested in Dawncities anymore and even what happened to the Shattered Plains. 

But then what do you think happened to the Stormseat spren after the failed attempt? 

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

Perhaps they died and that was the Shattering? They chose their own destruction over turning to the enemy? 

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

Oooo, I like this as a theory! Who do you think matches up with which city?

Definitely Nergaoul with Kholinar.

Nergaoul and Kholinar is probably one of the few connections I would dare make.

But generally, we know very little about the Unmade, and even less about Dawncities. So matching them seems near impossible to me.

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

But then what do you think happened to the Stormseat spren after the failed attempt? 

I would guess it died/was broken, similar to what can happen to Shards, but on smaller scale.
 

[BinarySecond]

The strata in Kholinar have always bothered me.

 

Kaladin LOSES his stormlight, it removes the lightweaving Shallan placed.

 

At the time he assumes he did but he's touching the strata lines. I think you're right; they were truly alive cities.

Edited September 30, 2024 by BinarySecond

[alder24]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

I would guess it died/was broken, similar to what can happen to Shards, but on smaller scale.

A Shard can't be fully killed, a spren can't be either. If a spren as big as an Unmade was killed, destroyed or broken, there would be some remnants of it somewhere. Some Deadeye, some lesser spren sharing a specific characteristic, or maybe it would have been reformed like a spren cut with a Shardblade, but we should see a sign of this somewhere. 

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

A Shard can't be fully killed, a spren can't be either. If a spren as big as an Unmade was killed, destroyed or broken, there would be some remnants of it somewhere. Some Deadeye, some lesser spren sharing a specific characteristic, or maybe it would have been reformed like a spren cut with a Shardblade, but we should see a sign of this somewhere. 

Correct, however there are numerous spren that we know exist, yet there is little evidence of them so far.

E.g.

• Spren of stone/Ur (only Venli interacted with them)
• Wind (only active post Odium exchange)
• 2 Unmade (Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish)
• Sibling (when pretending to be dead)

So the remnants might as well be present, but we have not yet seen them. Perhaps the free Listeners will encounter something of such nature, or perhaps as broken spren of Stone, such signs won't be visible to anyone who cannot Stoneshape.

[feruchemicalrockband]

20 hours ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

Perhaps they died and that was the Shattering? They chose their own destruction over turning to the enemy? 

This was probably Ba-Ado-Mishram. When they sealed her away, she was still connected to her city. Being sealed caused it to shatter as she lost her connection to the physical and cognitive realms. What if the Grand Knell in the cognitive realm is actually the cognitive version of the shattered plains?

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

This was probably Ba-Ado-Mishram. When they sealed her away, she was still connected to her city. Being sealed caused it to shatter as she lost her connection to the physical and cognitive realms. What if the Grand Knell in the cognitive realm is actually the cognitive version of the shattered plains?

Stormseat was already Shattered when the Last Legion abandoned Odium, which had to be at least before Mishram's imprisonment, if not even before the Aharietiam. 

[coolsnow7]

22 hours ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

Oooo, I like this as a theory! Who do you think matches up with which city?

Definitely Nergaoul with Kholinar.

 

You could probably then go to Dai Gonarthis and Akina. And possibly Sja Anat and Feverstone Keep.

Yeah I like this theory. I think it’s a bit of a stretch, but we can speculate that Honor and Cultivation “reverse-unmade” the Sibling to protect it from unmaking and that’s why it has the special characteristics it has.

[feruchemicalrockband]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Stormseat was already Shattered when the Last Legion abandoned Odium, which had to be at least before Mishram's imprisonment, if not even before the Aharietiam. 

The Last Legion didn't flee to Stormseat though. The listeners didn't even live in Narak until the war with the Alethi. The Last Legion lived in a place called the "dark home" that we basically don't know anything about, its mentioned off-handedly only once.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

The Last Legion didn't flee to Stormseat though. The listeners didn't even live in Narak until the war with the Alethi. The Last Legion lived in a place called the "dark home" that we basically don't know anything about, its mentioned off-handedly only once.

The name Narak means exile and that's because it's where the Last Legion escaped. Moreover the Song of Wars recorded that the Stormseat was already Shattered and all the songs were remembered before the Listeners abandoned their forms - the Stormseat had to be shattered long before Mishram was captured. 

Quote

They blame our people
For the loss of that land
The city that once covered it
Did range the eastern strand.
The power made known in the tomes of our clan
Our gods were not who shattered these plains. 

WoR I-1:

Quote

They had named it Narak—exile—for it was where they had come to be separated from their gods.

 

[feruchemicalrockband]

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The name Narak means exile and that's because it's where the Last Legion escaped. Moreover the Song of Wars recorded that the Stormseat was already Shattered and all the songs were remembered before the Listeners abandoned their forms - the Stormseat had to be shattered long before Mishram was captured. 

WoR I-1:

 

That's actually some really impressive recall, kudos!

 

Is it possible the song was created after the shattering? I'm not sure if we ever received confirmation which songs were created when. The events could have happened as either:

Shattering of the plains --> Last Legion flees/songs created --> Mishram captured --> Listeners leave the city of Narak and live in the outskirts of the plains

OR

Last Legion flees --> Mishram captured/plains are shattered --> song of Wars is created and listeners leave Narak to live in the outskirts

 

To be clear, I'm of the opinion that it was Honor's death that caused the shattering, even though that doesn't fit with events cleanly either, but there's always a chance that more information will be given to help us understand exactly how everything happened. Outside of Mishram and Honor I don't know what else would have caused it. Definitely not the Knights or Heralds, with Honor around to bind their powers it doesn't seem likely for them to have done it (though I could see the final reveal about the recreance and the Knights abandoning their oaths revolve around the reveal that a single knight at the 5th ideal caused the shattering). Adonalsium's shattering is also a possibility (since that was the original plan) but that puts the shattering over 3000 years before humans arrived on Roshar.

Edited September 30, 2024 by feruchemicalrockband

[Mayalaran]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

A Shard can't be fully killed, a spren can't be either. If a spren as big as an Unmade was killed, destroyed or broken, there would be some remnants of it somewhere. Some Deadeye, some lesser spren sharing a specific characteristic, or maybe it would have been reformed like a spren cut with a Shardblade, but we should see a sign of this somewhere. 

Maybe this is the wind? I really have no evidence *shrug*

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

Is it possible the song was created after the shattering? I'm not sure if we ever received confirmation which songs were created when. The events could have happened as either:

Shattering of the plains --> Last Legion flees/songs created --> Mishram captured --> Listeners leave the city of Narak and live in the outskirts of the plains

OR

Last Legion flees --> Mishram captured/plains are shattered --> song of Wars is created and listeners leave Narak to live in the outskirts

They were created after the Stormseat was broken, because the Song of War recalls this event. The songs were created shortly before or after the Last Legion abandoned their forms, as a way to preserve their knowledge. They had to be made within that generation otherwise Listeners would risk forgetting everything. And because Listeners fled to Narak specifically to isolate themselves from everyone on Roshar, if the Stormseat was shattered after Listeners abandoned their forms, they would have no idea that humans blamed Fused and Voidspren for the destruction of Stormseat, so the city was already broken when the Last Legion settled in it. Plus the Songs recall that the Last Legion chose those ruins as their home because they could isolate themselves. WoR I-4:

Quote

“Except for that day,” Eshonai said along with her mother, in rhythm.
“The day of the storm when the Last Legion fled,” Mother continued in song. “Difficult was the path chosen. Warriors, touched by the gods, our only choice to seek dullness of mind. A crippling that brought freedom.”
[...]
“Daring was the challenge made,” Mother sang, “when the Last Legion abandoned thought and power in exchange for freedom. They risked forgetting all. And so songs they composed, a hundred stories to tell, to remember. I tell them to you, and you will tell them to your children, until the forms are again discovered.”
From there, Mother launched into one of the early songs, about how the people would make their home in the ruins of an abandoned kingdom. How they would spread out, act as simple tribes and refugees. It was their plan to remain hidden, or at least ignored.

Moreover, the song suggests that the destruction of Stormseat happened a long time before the False Desolation. Firstly, humans blame Odium's forces for its destruction, so they clearly don't know what happened there, or so much time had passed that the truth was forgotten. Secondly, they are blaming Singers gods - Fused, Voidspren and Unmades - all of which except for Mishram were either trapped on Braize, or were presumably inactive on Roshar during this time period. The sheer fact that Listeners know that Fused and Voidspren are their gods seems to suggest that the Last Legion lived when they were on Roshar - during one of real Desolations, which is at least 4500 years ago. 

29 minutes ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

To be clear, I'm of the opinion that it was Honor's death that caused the shattering

Honor's death happened after the Recreance, thus after Mishram was captured and after the Last Legion was already exiled on Narak. However, because Honor's death was a long event and he was already dying when Recreance happened, he could have received a deadly wound which shattered Stormseat before all of this happened.

32 minutes ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

Outside of Mishram and Honor I don't know what else would have caused it.

 

Dawnshard maybe? Playing and amplifying an anti-tone of Stormseat? Every Dawncity has its own tone, as proved by cymatics and the Shattered Plains are symmetrical. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the anti-tone of the Stormseat itself (which may be related to the way a spren is being Unmade, as this theory suggests).

[logicless.bt]

There was a very similar post on Reddit, was that you? They also brought up that the seat of the Hierocracy (where people were claiming to see the future) could have originally hosted Moelach -- I think it was in Jah Keved but I don't quite recall.

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, logicless.bt said:

There was a very similar post on Reddit, was that you? They also brought up that the seat of the Hierocracy (where people were claiming to see the future) could have originally hosted Moelach -- I think it was in Jah Keved but I don't quite recall.

Nope, I am not posting much on Reddit.

Could you send me a link, I would like to see it.

[Cocoa he/him]

On 9/29/2024 at 12:27 PM, alder24 said:

But this does explain why they are so similar, why there are no spren manifested in Dawncities anymore and even what happened to the Shattered Plains.

I don't remember this bit about no spren in Dawncities being mentioned anywhere (in fact I was under the impression that we haven't had the identities/locations of any of the Dawncities confirmed at this point in time), could you point me to where you're getting that from?

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Cocoa said:

I don't remember this bit about no spren in Dawncities being mentioned anywhere (in fact I was under the impression that we haven't had the identities/locations of any of the Dawncities confirmed at this point in time), could you point me to where you're getting that from?

Urithiru in Cognitive Realm is a massive glowing tower - there is nothing glowing in Shadesmar where Dawncities are located - we've seen Kholinar, Thaylen and now Azimir, I bet someone saw Stormseat as well from Cognitive Realm. There are no sore manifested in Dawncities currently.

RoW ch 22:

Quote

But the tower itself was far more majestic than any other sight. Adolin turned around, gazing up at the shimmering mountain of light and colors. The mother-of-pearl radiance didn’t exactly mimic the shape of the tower, but had a more crystalline feel to it. Except it wasn’t physical, but light. Radiant, resplendent, and brilliant.

The tower was the same color the sky turned in Shadesmar when a highstorm was passing over Roshar. 

 

[Master Silver]

Going along with this theory, which I think is excellent, what if these Dawn Cities and their spren were connected to particular Heralds.  The heralds known for particular divine attributes had those manifested in certain spren. When the spren were unmade, it began to cause madness in the Heralds which Honor had to specifically counteract by directly connecting them to the spiritual realm. But Honor was unable to do this on Braize so as the madness got worse over the centuries the heralds broke earlier and earlier. Also, the perpetual breaking of the oath pact began to weaken Honor and then the Recreance left him mortally wounded. I think Honor united himself or his power to the hearts of men so that Odium could not possess them but this led to his death. 

[Confused]

This is a fascinating theory. I agree the Dawnsingers formed the Dawncities but IMO without the participation of spren. I think Dawnsingers created the cities using the same techniques Venli used with stone in RoW:

Quote

She saw them. Ancient people, the Dawnsingers, working the stone. Creating cities, tools. They didn’t need Soulcasting or forges. They’d dip lengths of wood into the stone, and come out with axes. They’d shape bowls with their fingers. All the while, the stone would sing to them.

Feel me, shaper. Create from me. We are one. The stone shapes your life as you shape the stone.

Welcome home, child of the ancients.

“How?” Venli asked. “Radiants didn’t exist then. Spren didn’t bond us … did they?”

Things are new, the stones hummed, but new things are made from old things, and old peoples give birth to new ones. Old stones remember.

RoW, Kindle pp. 780-781 (bold added).

I interpret this passage as meaning “new things” – manipulating stone through spren – come from “old things" – direct reliance on the tones of Roshar to manipulate stone. In this case, Voidlight provides the pure tone to awaken and manipulate the stone. The stone tells Venli,

Quote

That sound is familiar, the stones said. A child of the ancient ones. Our friend, you have returned to sing our song again?

“What song?” Venli asked.

The stone near her hand began to undulate, like ripples on the surface of a pond. A tone surged through her, then it began to pulse with the song of a rhythm she’d never heard, but somehow always known. A profound, sonorous rhythm, ancient as the core of Roshar.

RoW, Kindle p. 780 (bold added).

Timbre did not participate in this magic, as it used Voidlight, not Stormlight. Timbre is not enlightened. I think the stone directly performs magic through the tones of Roshar, which are "ancient as the core of Roshar." No spren of Stone is involved.

IMO, the Elia Stele’s old gods of Stone and Wind are alive themselves. No spren represents these old gods. Why should the Elia Stele reference “spren, stone, and wind” if Stone and Wind are also spren? What makes “spren” a separate god from Stone and Wind?

If you want more info about my views on this, I wrote a post entitled “Roshar’s Revenge: The Rise of Spren, Stone, and Wind.” Thanks for the read. C.

Edited October 6, 2024 by Confused

[Cocoa he/him]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Urithiru in Cognitive Realm is a massive glowing tower - there is nothing glowing in Shadesmar where Dawncities are located - we've seen Kholinar, Thaylen and now Azimir, I bet someone saw Stormseat as well from Cognitive Realm. There are no sore manifested in Dawncities currently.

Ah, I had misunderstood what you were saying then. It seems you were meaning that there aren't any spren acting as giant fabrial systems like the Sibling does, but I thought you meant meant there weren't any spren popping out in the physical realm in the Dawncities, period, which would be at odds with all the spren we saw in Kholinar and Thaylen city.

[Isilel]

8 hours ago, Confused said:

Timbre did not participate in this magic, as it used Voidlight, not Stormlight.

 

Venli can fuel her surges with Voidlight, though, and has been doing so as much as she could during RoW, to avoid detection. It is something that her combination of a voidspren and a Radiant spren in her gemheart allows her to do. 

Though, I agree that in this scene something else was going on.

[Ripheus23]

On 10/5/2024 at 8:54 AM, Master Silver said:

Going along with this theory, which I think is excellent, what if these Dawn Cities and their spren were connected to particular Heralds.  The heralds known for particular divine attributes had those manifested in certain spren. When the spren were unmade, it began to cause madness in the Heralds which Honor had to specifically counteract by directly connecting them to the spiritual realm. But Honor was unable to do this on Braize so as the madness got worse over the centuries the heralds broke earlier and earlier. Also, the perpetual breaking of the oath pact began to weaken Honor and then the Recreance left him mortally wounded. I think Honor united himself or his power to the hearts of men so that Odium could not possess them but this led to his death. 

I was hopping through the Coppermind and made a mental note when I read this:

Quote

And thus were the disturbances in the Revv toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan'Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such patronage. 

Also:

Quote

It is said that the city of Sesemalex Dar--and the entire kingdom of Emul--was named by Jezrien himself. 

Then:

Quote

During the False Desolation, the singers, under Ba-Ado-Mishram, may have been interested in controlling something in or near Rall Elorim.^[5]

THEORY TIME: the Dawncities were not simultaneously built, but at different times, in the name/with the help of different Heralds (before they were Heralds in some cases, maybe). More precisely, each Dawncity is to a Herald what Elantris is to Elantrians at large, with the cymatic signature of each being comparable to an Aon. So, for example, Sesemalex Dar was Jezrien's Dawncity, and this pertains somehow to why Ishar was so enmeshed with the war over the place (he wanted to do something with SD's power).

Then what other people are saying about the Unmade and the Dawncities is correct: the Unmaking of the cities' spren was part of where the Unmade came from.

However, then, which Dawncity never "fell," so to speak? For that he is the Herald of War, I wonder whether Taln was the Herald of Alethela/Kholinar as such, but Kholinar is sprenless nowadays too, so I don't know. But Taln seems to have Returned near Kholinar, so I wonder if each Herald Returns near their appointed Dawncity (on the supposition that they have these).

I'm gonna assume/guess that these are Dawncities:

1. Kholinar
2. Rall Elorim
3. Thaylen City
4. Vedenar
5. Panatham
6. Stormseat
7. Azimir
8. Sesemalex Dar
9. Akinah
10. Kurth

So, if Stormseat was just annihilated by the interface of Honor and Odium's tones (is that what Shattered the Plains??? my memory is blanking), maybe it never had a chance for its spren to be Unmade in the usual way, and it's pretty stony, so maybe it was Stormseat that Taln was affiliated with. Maybe Taln wanted to kill Cultivation because she could've protected Stormseat with her tone but didn't, etc.

GAS GIANT CONNECTION? AFAIK, IRL, Saturn has a huge hexagonal storm going on, on it. I assume, then, that there are cymatics-correlated storms on Roshar's gas giants. Like, per giant, there's a storm whose cymatic signature was involved in the pattern of the Dawncity associated with the appropriate Herald/planet pair. And then e.g. Kurth's description as the "City of Lightning" means that its corollary giant-storm is the most electrically charged, maybe; or Akinah's protective storm is partly channeled from the corresponding gas giant. (Extra guess: Dai-Gonarthis is then the Unmade of Akinah.)

OATHGATE CONNECTION? Sesemalex Dar doesn't have an Oathgate, and we don't know which Shin city/site has theirs. The Windrunners and Skybreakers are the flying Radiants, so maybe their affiliated Dawncities don't need Oathgates and/or the Shin Oathgate isn't in a city? However, I don't know that Nale would be associated with the Shin like that. Revv doesn't sound like a Shin name, where was Revv??? (Would Nale have been appointed a Dawncity from Revv upon his acceptance of the Skybreakers, according to this "model"?)