Oathgate Sprens - Corrupted? Enlightened? Indoctrinated? Educated?

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

Either the Heralds are not human and are spren (in which case they and the Inkspren are comparable as sapient investiture) or they do count as human and inhumanity isn't necessary to endure milennia of difficult ordeals. Both interpretations of the Heralds as 1) non-human or 2) human-like have to grapple with reconciling their nature and their actions.

If heralds are nothing more than men and women, then men and women can bear extraordinary pain and suffering while still being capable of wanting release, otherwise they couldn't break or want to break. If the heralds are spren, then they aren't an argument against spren having the same complex reality. The assignment of humanlike psychology cannot in the Cosmere be a reason that someone can't do what the Oathgate spren did, otherwise the entire plot falls apart 

 

as I said, in the earlier, comment the humanity of Spren varies. For all we know the same could be said for the Heralds. But regardless, this is just speculation. We can only speculate about the Heralds because we don’t know enough about their condition. They seem human enough, but they but some of them are definitely developing some Spren like characteristics (Nale). I could go on here and discuss what could be happening to the heralds my point is that we can’t compare an immortal cognitive shadow to a regular person. 
 

Could you point to a single human who can endure a millennia of boredom or torture? Heralds not withstanding do you honestly believe that is within human capabilities? 
 

 

3 hours ago, Windrunner22 said:

How they look has nothing to do with whether or not they are a "person". If it varies then it is certainly a variation between intelligent/bondable spren and those types who cannot form a Nahel bond. All radiant spren capable of a Nahel bond have their own personalities, thoughts, opinions, emotions, fears, desires, and they make their own individual choices. Honorspren, inkspren, and Cryptics alike. This is what makes them a "person" to me. Pattern certainly demonstrates these characteristics even as a Cryptic. In WOR ch.3 Jasnah tells Shallan that the Cryptics control one of the greater cites in Shadesmar. They even came up with the word Cryptic as a preferred name for themselves. Just because they are super into lies, math, patterns, etc.. does not make them less of a “person” to me. Heck, even mostly deadeyed Maya has her own personality, thoughts/opinions/emotions (preview ch.3 she never thought much of Kelek) (preview ch.7 it would be wonderful to help the lost blades), and clearly she has made her own choices (WE.CHOSE.). 

You don't know that they have not contemplated freedom in the past 1000 years either. You don’t know they were silent or that they didn’t want to complain to somebody. Maybe they would need a bondsmith to let them out. It could be like what The Stick mentioned and they swore an oath to stay, and can’t act against that oath. So inkspren remain at their Oathagte post for 1000s of years, how does that remove their personality? how does that eliminate their ability to think? Does that mean they have no opinions, emotions, fears, or desires? They still make choices as to who they allow to pass through the Oathgate. Not even being a deadeye Blade for 1000s of years could remove Maya’s personality, ability to think, thoughts, emotions, etc… so I fail to see how staying at the Oathgate would do so to the inkspren.

1.You mistaking being a person for being human. These are two different things.
 

2. Actually appearance does matter remember that Spren look the way they do because of how people perceive them. This is why the older spren have four genders while more younger ones have two. This affect more than just their body but their entire being. Put it simply if people perceive something to be more human then the corresponding spren will act and look that way. Put it another way. What a Spren looks like, gives a hint as to how it is perceived which intern gives a hint to how it’s entire being function.

3. No, I’m not saying that super inkspren don’t have feelings, emotions or desires. I’m saying that you can’t assume that those emotions feelings or desires are the same as a humans or emotions, feelings or desires.  
 

 as humans we cannot understand why cryptic find numbers so beautiful. We cannot understand why Spren could be content standing in one position for thousands of years because ultimately they are not any more than we are cryptic or ink spren. Our thoughts emotions and desires are simply different from each other.  The ink spren were content with their job for thousands of years they aren’t anymore given what we know from the unmade, it is because they were changed on a fundamental level level so that their desires thoughts and emotions would be different. 

 

@Windrunner22

let me let the book itself speak on the matter concerning the difference between humans and spren

 

However, the Wind did not think like a person does. This should not surprise anyone who has familiarity with a spren, though such things are less common now than they once were.
 

 

Edited September 13, 2024 by bmcclure7

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:49 PM, bmcclure7 said:

What is happening if she’s fundamentally changing their natures which results in changing their minds. Remember that spren are not human. it takes more than just talking to them to get them to change their minds. You have to change them on a fundamental level . Additionally They don’t necessarily want or need the same things human want or needs. Things like freedom are not necessarily something spren want or understand depending on the type of Spren. it’s unlikely that the spren ever thought about freedom until after they were altered by the unmade. 

That's flipping the cause and effect, they agreed to what Sja-anat did because they wanted freedom:

Spoiler

“You’ve been corrupted,” Shallan whispered. “The guards were supposed to watch for that. Protect you or raise a warning…”

“There was no warning to give,” the spren said, voice softer to not overwhelm her—though it still made Shallan shake and vibrate. “I have made my decision. So has my companion. We are ready for freedom.”

“Freedom?” Shallan asked.

“We become something else. Not Odium. Not Honor. Free.”

...

“I’m sorry,” Shallan said, “for what has been done to you.”

“I agreed,” the spren said. “First to the bondage, and now to the liberation. I am finished with what was.” It hesitated. “This is good for us all. Go to the other side. Leave me.”

 

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's flipping the cause and effect, they agreed to what Sja-anat did because they wanted freedom:

  Hide contents

“You’ve been corrupted,” Shallan whispered. “The guards were supposed to watch for that. Protect you or raise a warning…”

“There was no warning to give,” the spren said, voice softer to not overwhelm her—though it still made Shallan shake and vibrate. “I have made my decision. So has my companion. We are ready for freedom.”

“Freedom?” Shallan asked.

“We become something else. Not Odium. Not Honor. Free.”

...

“I’m sorry,” Shallan said, “for what has been done to you.”

“I agreed,” the spren said. “First to the bondage, and now to the liberation. I am finished with what was.” It hesitated. “This is good for us all. Go to the other side. Leave me.”

 

 

If that were the case, there would be no need to corrupt them at all she did corrupt them which indicates that the corruption was necessary on some level for them to make this decision. 

Perhaps she partly corrupted them and then they allowed her to continue completing the process. 
 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

If that were the case, there would be no need to corrupt them at all she did corrupt them which indicates that the corruption was necessary on some level for them to make this decision. 

Why can't they just have wanted it?

[Michael Portz he/him]

Ok, one thing I needed to be reminded of was that Oathgates are Fabrials and that the oathgate spren are actually bound to them. And the difference to e.g. a heating fabrial is, that here there are highspren bound. 

Which other examples of high spren fabrials do we actually have?

 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

47 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Which other examples of high spren fabrials do we actually have?

Soulcasters and healing fabrials. Or actually one healing fabrial.

[Michael Portz he/him]

2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Soulcasters and healing fabrials. Or actually one healing fabrial.

So could Sja-anat go around and “corrupt” these as well?

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Why can't they just have wanted it?

Because if they did, they would be no need to corrupt them. In fact, there would be no need to get the in fact there would be no need to there would be no need to get the unmade involve that all. 
 

Clearly, “they just wanted to. “ It’s too simple and explanation. Even if it is part of the answer.

Edited September 14, 2024 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Because if they did, they would be no need to corrupt them. In fact, there would be no need to get the in fact there would be no need to there would be no need to get the unmade involve that all. 

Your logic is very flawed. It's like saying that if you want to be healthy, just be healthy and you won't need a doctor to treat your cancer. Just because they wanted to be free, doesn't mean they could be free. Enlightenment gave them the opportunity to become free, something they couldn't do on their own for some reason. External help is often needed to fulfill your desires.

[bmcclure7]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Your logic is very flawed. It's like saying that if you want to be healthy, just be healthy and you won't need a doctor to treat your cancer. Just because they wanted to be free, doesn't mean they could be free. Enlightenment gave them the opportunity to become free, something they couldn't do on their own for some reason. External help is often needed to fulfill your desires.

Now I’m confused are you saying that they are sick or that someone is holding them hostage?

 

regardless, I think you’re only demonstrating my point something had to have been done to them. A doctor doesn’t cure your cancer by trying to persuade you not to have cancer.

I think at this point we’re saying the same thing but with different words.

Edited September 14, 2024 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Now I’m confused are you saying that they are sick or that someone is holding them hostage?

 

regardless, I think you’re only demonstrating my point something had to have been done to them. A doctor doesn’t cure your cancer by trying to persuade you not to have cancer.

I'm saying that having desires is often not enough and you need help from someone else to achieve them. The Oathgate spren wanted to be free for millenia, but they simply couldn't have done this on their own. That's why they agreed to Sja-Anat's offer to get what they wanted. Sja-Anat didn't have to corrupt them to make them want to be free, they already wanted freedom and that's why they agreed to be Enlightened. They needed to be corrupted to be changed and gain freedom they desired for so long but couldn't have previously - just like you go to a doctor to treat your cancer because wanting to be healthy isn't enough. 

[bmcclure7]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm saying that having desires is often not enough and you need help from someone else to achieve them. The Oathgate spren wanted to be free for millenia, but they simply couldn't have done this on their own. That's why they agreed to Sja-Anat's offer to get what they wanted. Sja-Anat didn't have to corrupt them to make them want to be free, they already wanted freedom and that's why they agreed to be Enlightened. They needed to be corrupted to be changed and gain freedom they desired for so long but couldn't have previously - just like you go to a doctor to treat your cancer because wanting to be healthy isn't enough. 

1. I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. I’m saying that they were indeed changed by the unmade. This is not a change that happened with mere words rather They were fundamentally changed by the unmade using her powers on them. If you’re not disputing that fact, and then we pretty much agree.
 

2. you’re assuming that what they wanted was freedom they could’ve simply wanted to change. And then desire for freedom came after the change.

If they just wanted freedom, they could’ve been free at any time. It’s not like they were being held hostage.
 

More likely what they wanted to was to want freedom. Like a man with no artistic appreciation may want to experience the world to the eyes of a great artist.
 

Edited September 14, 2024 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. I’m saying that they were indeed changed by the unmade. This is not a change that happened with mere words rather They were fundamentally changed by the unmade using her powers on them. 

Obviously, that's what Enlightenment is. It's corrupting them, it's infusing them with power - it's changing them. 

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. you’re assuming that what they wanted was freedom they could’ve simply wanted to change. And then desire for freedom came after the change.

I'm saying they wanted freedom but they couldn't just change and be free for some reasons. Their desire for freedom predates their Enlightenment - that's why they agreed to be corrupted in the first place. 

Sja-Anat doesn't corrupt intelligent spren without their consent. If they didn't want to be changed and free, they wouldn't agree to be corrupted. RoW ch 54:

Quote

“Only a handful,” Renarin said. “She won’t change intelligent spren without their consent.”

 

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

If they just wanted freedom, they could’ve been free at any time. It’s not like they were being held hostage.

This is very flawed logic. Just because you want to be healthy, it doesn't make your cancer go away - you need a doctor. They said they didn't want to be just of Honor, or of Odium - how does a spren achieve that on their own? How can a Honorspren stop being of Honor just with their own willpower? They can't. They need help. They became free by accepting the change offered by Sja-Anat, by becoming corrupted (which is mixing of investitures).

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

More likely what they wanted to was to want freedom.

They said they accepted this liberation, which means they wanted to be free before they were corrupted. Their words prove you're wrong. 

[bmcclure7]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Obviously, that's what Enlightenment is. It's corrupting them, it's infusing them with power - it's changing them. 

I'm saying they wanted freedom but they couldn't just change and be free for some reasons. Their desire for freedom predates their Enlightenment - that's why they agreed to be corrupted in the first place. 

Sja-Anat doesn't corrupt intelligent spren without their consent. If they didn't want to be changed and free, they wouldn't agree to be corrupted. RoW ch 54:

 

This is very flawed logic. Just because you want to be healthy, it doesn't make your cancer go away - you need a doctor. They said they didn't want to be just of Honor, or of Odium - how does a spren achieve that on their own? How can a Honorspren stop being of Honor just with their own willpower? They can't. They need help. They became free by accepting the change offered by Sja-Anat, by becoming corrupted (which is mixing of investitures).

They said they accepted this liberation, which means they wanted to be free before they were corrupted. Their words prove you're wrong. 

1. I think we’re talking past each other at this point. My main argument was that what others had said this change and sprint isn’t the result of a conversation but them being fundamentally changed by the unmade. that is to say they have been enlightened or corrupted by the unmade, and not merely had a conversation with her about freedom
 

2. I assume that we have chosen freedom wasn’t about being corrupted, but about leaving the gates open. 
 

3. I’m not disputing that she doesn’t change intelligence sprint without their consent. 
 

4. Your analogy is faulty. It assumes that the spren Were somehow forced to be Oath gates that is not the case certainly sibling is not forcing them to do this. And if they already wanted, treat them then why would they have to be changed? Remember the unmade didn’t do anything to change their circumstances, but instead to change them. 
 

Your analogy also implies that there was something wrong with them originally that they were somehow sick or unhealthy that is not the case.
 

A better analogy would be someone going to a doctor. To remove their sex drive, or perhaps if they were asexual to boost their sex drive.  
 

The analogy also implies that they went to the unmade instead of the other way around, which is not what we see

Edited September 14, 2024 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. I assume that we have chosen freedom wasn’t about being corrupted, but about leaving the gates open. 

They explained it's about not being of Honor, or of Odium - it's about being something else. Please read once more the conversation between Shallan and spren quoted by Lews earlier - the answer is right there.

Quote

“Freedom?” Shallan asked.

“We become something else. Not Odium. Not Honor. Free.”

 

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. Your analogy is faulty. It assumes that the spren Were somehow forced to be Oath gates that is not the case certainly sibling is not forcing them to do this. And if they already wanted, treat them then why would they have to be changed? Remember the unmade didn’t do anything to change their circumstances, but instead to change them. 
 

Your analogy also implies that there was something wrong with them originally that they were somehow sick or unhealthy that is not the case.

The analogy is only meant to say that you can't always get what you want, just by wanting it, you need someone else's help to achieve that. You're focusing on the wrong things. Spren can't just change their nature - their nature is tied to the investiture that makes them up. Sja-Anat changes that. 

I didn't say anything about them being forced to be Oathgates, so I don't know why you are bringing that up. However, the Oathgate spren are BOUND by Honor to obey words of the Sibling - they might have wanted to be able to decide on their own who gets to pass through their gates and Enlightenment breaks them free of this bond. So yes, they are indeed kept in prison by a bond and Honor - they can't just be free by wanting to be free. OB ch 116:

Quote

We are locked. Travel to and from Shadesmar was prohibited during the parent’s last days. We are bound to obey.
[...]
Shallan’s time was short. She looked back up at the gatekeepers. “Please. The other Oathgate—the one at Kholinar—let me through.”
Impossible, they said. We are bound by Honor, by rules spren cannot break. This portal is closed.
[...]
We would enjoy granting passage to men again. But we cannot do that which was forbidden.

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

They explained it's about not being of Honor, or of Odium - it's about being something else. Please read once more the conversation between Shallan and spren quoted by Lews earlier - the answer is right there.

 

The analogy is only meant to say that you can't always get what you want, just by wanting it, you need someone else's help to achieve that. You're focusing on the wrong things. Spren can't just change their nature - their nature is tied to the investiture that makes them up. Sja-Anat changes that. 

I didn't say anything about them being forced to be Oathgates, so I don't know why you are bringing that up. However, the Oathgate spren are BOUND by Honor to obey words of the Sibling - they might have wanted to be able to decide on their own who gets to pass through their gates and Enlightenment breaks them free of this bond. So yes, they are indeed kept in prison by a bond and Honor - they can't just be free by wanting to be free. OB ch 116:

1. yes, you did by saying that they couldn’t get free on their own. You’re implying that someone or something is holding them there.

2. That just goes towards my point it is the nature of ink spren to follow the rules unconditionally. They don’t think about freedom because that’s not in their nature. They are not by nature free. Any more than I am by nature a squirrel. This is not a bug gets a feature.

For them to suddenly be all about freedom they would have to be changed fundamentally. 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

16 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. yes, you did by saying that they couldn’t get free on their own. You’re implying that someone or something is holding them there.

2. That just goes towards my point it is the nature of ink spren to follow the rules unconditionally. They don’t think about freedom because that’s not in their nature. They are not by nature free. Any more than I am by nature a squirrel. This is not a bug gets a feature.

For them to suddenly be all about freedom they would have to be changed fundamentally. 

You forgot very important factor. Or even two. Or more.

First, when those Inkspren became Oathgates, humans and Spren were allies. So they were serving, probably wilingly, their friends. But things changed with Recreance - suddenly Spren assumed Humans betrayed them, so they found themselves in service of traitors. With this in mind is understandable they wanted to end service.

Second. Of course there is something holding them there. They are literaly ENGINE OF OATHGATE! And while Spren as dead Shardblades slowly vanish from Physical Realm, we dont see anything simmilar in Soulcaster's case. So we can assume Spren bounded to Surge Fabrial cannot simply stop being those Fabrials, even if they want.

Third, it is not the first time when we hear about Spren concern about humans enslaving Spren. Remember why Sibling dont wanted Bond Navani?

[bmcclure7]

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

You forgot very important factor. Or even two. Or more.

First, when those Inkspren became Oathgates, humans and Spren were allies. So they were serving, probably wilingly, their friends. But things changed with Recreance - suddenly Spren assumed Humans betrayed them, so they found themselves in service of traitors. With this in mind is understandable they wanted to end service.

Second. Of course there is something holding them there. They are literaly ENGINE OF OATHGATE! And while Spren as dead Shardblades slowly vanish from Physical Realm, we dont see anything simmilar in Soulcaster's case. So we can assume Spren bounded to Surge Fabrial cannot simply stop being those Fabrials, even if they want.

Third, it is not the first time when we hear about Spren concern about humans enslaving Spren. Remember why Sibling dont wanted Bond Navani?

I’m confused since when were the Soren ancient fabrils trapped ? don’t call them ever saying that was the case at all.
And be quite honest it makes no sense for them to be trapped. When a spren becomes a shard blade it doesn’t get trapped in that form. It just switches back to its original form. So presumably a soul caster or a oath gate could do the same thing at any time.
 

 

2. we heard the sibling be concerned about humans enslaving spren. She does not speak for the spren as a whole, how could she? The Spren are nearly as different from each other as they are from humans. 
 

3. The oath gate spren we never slaves to humans because they never serves humans they served the sibling. And sometimes in its absence the storm father. When they say that they are free, they don’t mean free from humanity, but free from the sibling, and by extension the war between honor and odium
 

Edited September 14, 2024 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. yes, you did by saying that they couldn’t get free on their own. You’re implying that someone or something is holding them there.

The Oathgate spren never said that they want to get away from being fabrials, they said they want to be free of Honor and Odium. You wrongfully assumed that being free means not being a fabrial.

43 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. That just goes towards my point it is the nature of ink spren to follow the rules unconditionally. They don’t think about freedom because that’s not in their nature. They are not by nature free. Any more than I am by nature a squirrel. This is not a bug gets a feature.

For them to suddenly be all about freedom they would have to be changed fundamentally. 

I cannot even start to describe how wrong you are. Every single interaction with thinking spren, 2 PoV chapters from Syl and Sja-Anat, all chapters from Shadesmar and more is in total opposition to your claims. Freedom is a concept, a concept that's fully comprehended by spren - literally all spren of Celebrant are thinking about freedom right now as they are under Fused control. How about Honorspren's failed conquest of CR? Spren back then clearly fought and defended their freedom successfully. Did you forget how the Sibling was screaming at Navani for imprisoning all those lesser spren? They were clearly thinking about freedom with ease. How about we look at the Honorspren's nature? By "their nature" they shouldn't be allowed to be unhonorable or to lie? Sekier clearly had no problems with doing either of those things during Adolin's trial. Inkspren don't have to follow rules unconditionally, they had broken those rules during the Recreance. 

The list goes on and on. Spren are people and they think like people do, they understand what freedom is and despite being manifestations of forces of nature, they aren't restricted to being just that. They are people, they are sapient and with sapience comes understanding of abstract concepts such as freedom. Sometimes it's harder, sometimes it's easier, but they are fully capable of thinking of this because they are sapient. Time and time again books are showing us that True Spren are equally as sapient as humans are. I have no idea why you would think that they can't think about freedom.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The Oathgate spren never said that they want to get away from being fabrials, they said they want to be free of Honor and Odium. You wrongfully assumed that being free means not being a fabrial.

To add to this:

Quote

“I don’t know you,” the spren said. “You aren’t my friends; you are my oppressors. Now I find liberation. Go. We will transfer you, and will continue to do so for now. When the singers arrive, we will transfer them. This is liberation.”

"Liberation" is not "ceasing being a fabrial", it's "no longer being bound to one side".

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The Oathgate spren never said that they want to get away from being fabrials, they said they want to be free of Honor and Odium. You wrongfully assumed that being free means not being a fabrial.

I cannot even start to describe how wrong you are. Every single interaction with thinking spren, 2 PoV chapters from Syl and Sja-Anat, all chapters from Shadesmar and more is in total opposition to your claims. Freedom is a concept, a concept that's fully comprehended by spren - literally all spren of Celebrant are thinking about freedom right now as they are under Fused control. How about Honorspren's failed conquest of CR? Spren back then clearly fought and defended their freedom successfully. Did you forget how the Sibling was screaming at Navani for imprisoning all those lesser spren? They were clearly thinking about freedom with ease. How about we look at the Honorspren's nature? By "their nature" they shouldn't be allowed to be unhonorable or to lie? Sekier clearly had no problems with doing either of those things during Adolin's trial. Inkspren don't have to follow rules unconditionally, they had broken those rules during the Recreance. 

The list goes on and on. Spren are people and they think like people do, they understand what freedom is and despite being manifestations of forces of nature, they aren't restricted to being just that. They are people, they are sapient and with sapience comes understanding of abstract concepts such as freedom. Sometimes it's harder, sometimes it's easier, but they are fully capable of thinking of this because they are sapient. Time and time again books are showing us that True Spren are equally as sapient as humans are. I have no idea why you would think that they can't think about freedom.

1. It is frustrating how much you misunderstand what I am saying.

I didn’t say they didn’t understand how freedom works. But understand how something works and having a desire to have something or different things. 
 

For example, I can understand what attracts someone of the opposite sex to my sex without being same sex attracted 

 

2. I literally quoted the book where it said Spen are not people you might as well be arguing with Brandon at this point.

 

 

3. As I have already said many SPREN ARE NOT ALL THE SAME!!!!!!!! Just because one type of spren has an desire for freedom does not mean that applies to all Types of spren so please stop arguing that x is true for all spren because it is true for the sibling.

@LewsTherinTelescope

4. What they want freedom from is irrelevant I repeat IRRELEVANT it doesn’t change the point that if they wanted to freedom they could’ve easily had it.
 

They could just as easily have the same policy that have now They would simply have to announce to everyone that they would no longer would be stopping anyone from coming through.  They didn’t because according to them, it went against the fundamental rules of their nature. Now their nature has been changed, allowing for them to contemplate other options.

Edited September 14, 2024 by bmcclure7

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. What they want freedom from is irrelevant I repeat IRRELEVANT it doesn’t change the point that if they wanted to freedom they could’ve easily had it.

They could just as easily have the same policy that have now They would simply have to announce to everyone that they would no longer would be stopping anyone from coming through.  They didn’t because according to them, it went against the fundamental rules of their nature. Now their nature has been changed, allowing for them to contemplate other options.

As the quote alder brought up earlier says, Honor binds them:

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

So yes, they are indeed kept in prison by a bond and Honor - they can't just be free by wanting to be free. OB ch 116:

Quote

We are locked. Travel to and from Shadesmar was prohibited during the parent’s last days. We are bound to obey.
[...]
Shallan’s time was short. She looked back up at the gatekeepers. “Please. The other Oathgate—the one at Kholinar—let me through.”
Impossible, they said. We are bound by Honor, by rules spren cannot break. This portal is closed.
[...]
We would enjoy granting passage to men again. But we cannot do that which was forbidden.

They want to allow Shallan & co through, but they aren't allowed to. Is it unbelievable that these same rules would prevent them from aiding Odium's forces, even if they had the desire to be free from the war?

[alder24]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. It is frustrating how much you misunderstand what I am saying.

I didn’t say they didn’t understand how freedom works. But understand how something works and having a desire to have something or different things. 

For example, I can understand what attracts someone of the opposite sex to my sex without being same sex attracted 

2. I literally quoted the book where it said Spen are not people you might as well be arguing with Brandon at this point.

Didn't see you quote anything, you just said they aren't humans - which is true - but they are still people. Being a person is different from being a human. Singers are people, Sleepless are people, Spren are people too. A person is someone who's sentient, intelligent, with the capacity to speak a language, the ability to make moral judgments, has consciousness, free will, self-awareness and the ability to feel emotions. Spren are all of those things, they are people. Yes, they are ideas, but they are LIVING ideas and with that living part comes all of the above. With free will comes a desire for freedom. They are able to feel it, there is nothing in their nature that would prevent them from feeling this. Is this really that hard to understand? 

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. As I have already said many SPREN ARE NOT ALL THE SAME!!!!!!!! Just because one type of spren has an desire for freedom does not mean that applies to all Types of spren so please stop arguing that x is true for all spren because it is true for the sibling.

What makes Inkspren, out of all types of sapient spren, so unique that they can't feel any desire for freedom? Nevermind, they did feel it in OB. The Theylen city Oathgate spren felt a desire for freedom to allow Shallan to pass. So books directly contradict your claims!

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. What they want freedom from is irrelevant I repeat IRRELEVANT it doesn’t change the point that if they wanted to freedom they could’ve easily had it.

They could just as easily have the same policy that have now They would simply have to announce to everyone that they would no longer would be stopping anyone from coming through.  They didn’t because according to them, it went against the fundamental rules of their nature. Now their nature has been changed, allowing for them to contemplate other options.

It's very relevant, you yourself made claims about what they want to be free from. And they couldn't have that freedom because the bonds and Honor prevent them from having it. They MUST listen to the Sibling. 

Edited September 15, 2024 by alder24

[bmcclure7]

On 9/14/2024 at 8:21 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

As the quote alder brought up earlier says, Honor binds them:

They want to allow Shallan & co through, but they aren't allowed to. Is it unbelievable that these same rules would prevent them from aiding Odium's forces, even if they had the desire to be free from the war?

1.Yes That’s exactly my point, honor binds not some person or Spren but their own nature as splinters of honor and cultivation. I’m glad we finally agree.

 

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Didn't see you quote anything, you just said they aren't humans - which is true - but they are still people. Being a person is different from being a human. Singers are people, Sleepless are people, Spren are people too. A person is someone who's sentient, intelligent, with the capacity to speak a language, the ability to make moral judgments, has consciousness, free will, self-awareness and the ability to feel emotions. Spren are all of those things, they are people. Yes, they are ideas, but they are LIVING ideas and with that living part comes all of the above. With free will comes a desire for freedom. They are able to feel it, there is nothing in their nature that would prevent them from feeling this. Is this really that hard to understand? 

What makes Inkspren, out of all types of sapient spren, so unique that they can't feel any desire for freedom? Nevermind, they did feel it in OB. The Theylen city Oathgate spren felt a desire for freedom to allow Shallan to pass. So books directly contradict your claims!

It's very relevant, you yourself made claims about what they want to be free from. And they couldn't have that freedom because the bonds and Honor prevent them from having it. They MUST listen to the Sibling. 

 

1.since you missed my quote, I’ll give it to you again. 
 

“However, the Wind did not think like a person does. This should not surprise anyone who has familiarity with a spren, though such things are less common now than they once were.”

 2. at this point you’re pretty much agreeing with me as you admit that was stopping them was there honor not some outside force. Same way a mother is bound to her child for by the nature of humanity. 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.Yes That’s exactly my point, honor binds not some person or Spren but their own nature as splinters of honor and cultivation. I’m glad we finally agree.

Just read the quote once more. They are bound to obey the Sibling and their nature prevents them from breaking that rule even though they wanted to. They were forbidden to allow Shallan to pass, yet their nature didn't stop them from wanting to let them go. The quote proves the exact opposite of what you claim.

9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.since you missed my quote, I’ll give it to you again. 
 

“However, the Wind did not think like a person does. This should not surprise anyone who has familiarity with a spren, though such things are less common now than they once were.”

Oh, this one. It doesn't say "they aren't people," they say they don't think like a person, but it doesn't mean they don't FEEL like a person does and desires are feelings. 

9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. at this point you’re pretty much agreeing with me as you admit that was stopping them was there honor not some outside force. Same way a mother is bound to her child for by the nature of humanity. 

No, I'm not. Honor stops them from breaking rules, but they can still feel and desire whatever they want - including freedom. And that's a very bad example, there are plenty of mothers who don't care about their children and even abandon them. The nature of humanity doesn't stop them for this at all.

This is pointless. We're moving nowhere. I think it's time to just end this and agree to disagree.

Edited September 16, 2024 by alder24