Could Cultivation Shardholder have changed hands?

[kari-no-sugata]

In Dalinar's vision, Honor clearly describes Cultivation as being female. But, since that is a recorded message, that doesn't mean Cultivation is still held by a female Shardholder.

We have very very little information on Cultivation. But, if Odium killed Honor, what happened to Cultivation afterwards? Given the huge length of time and the presence of Odium, it's not impossible that Cultivation's Shardholder has changed hands.

A number of people have fingered the Shin as being a people in which Cultivation has had a lot of influence, but they talk of "He who adds" (sounds like a religious figure) rather than "She who adds".

Anyway... Sorry for the short theory and total lack of evidence... but I just had this idea and thought I could post this more as a warning: What Honor says about Cultivation could be a false trail on Brandon's part - though Shardholders very rarely change hands, it does happen. We shouldn't invoke the possibility too much but should also not ignore the possibility either.

[Aethling]

Theorectically, I guess it would be possible for Cultivation to have changed hands. Why would it unless something very drastic happened. It might very well have happened, we just have no proof or even hint of it doing so.

[Odium's_Shard]

I am a personal fan of random theories (hence my contributions to the Parshendi/world saving badasses threads, and the innumeral threads I have made on GT on just thoughts I have about the entire Cosmere.

And this one could make sense, but I personally feel that the Shards have not recently changed hands, or in fact seem not to had changed since the Shattering, as the writer of 'The Letter' in tWoK seems familiar with many by name, and Rayse, Ati and Leras have been around since all the Shardworlds broke apart. So I feel that Cultivation changing hands would be a major plot point, or worldbuilding point, that Brandon would have at least suggested (unless it is meant to be a 'twist', but no offence, it isn't quite shocking enough).

Also, some have suggested this refers to a 'Head' of sorts of the Stone Shamanism religion that the follow. In the same way, many feel that Szeth may be a necessary antithesis in this religion (in the same way as Satan must exist for God to have a point), and be 'He who takes away'. They seem the type of peoples who favor balance, and Cultivation is the very essence of balance, as it knows that some shoots must be culled for others to flourish.

Also, many say that Cultivation may not even live on Roshar, that it is just someone Tanavast knew from the Shattering, or that she/he fled before Odium, or that there was a third Shard previously on Roshar before Honor died, then fled, leaving just Cultivation. There are too many possibilities for anyone to make so much as a definitive guess, as there are ways to argue and press every point.

But, when Brandon reveals Cultivation's sex change in the fourth book of The Stormlight Archive, you can refer to this post in mockery, and rightly send me packing with my tail between my legs. But please, don't just accept my opinion. It's so boring when people do that!

Argue it your way too, when you have some evidence, and maybe we'll all end up agreeing with you, and we can all espouse your theory as the definitive truth! Good luck,

Odium

[hoser]

Well, three ruled, but now the Broken One reigns. The voice in the highstorm infomed Kaladin that "Odium reigns". I doubt Cultivation is still active as a "shard plus human" on Roshar.

Possible:

1. Cultivation holder dead, Shard intact
   
2. Cultivation holder dead, Shard splintered
   
3. Cultivation holder and Shard fled (but, although Odium has traveled to destroy other Shards, we have not seen Shards abandoning their planets, so I doubt this one)
   

With the value of this opinion and $5, you can get a coffee flavored milkshake at Starbucks .

[Odium's_Shard]

You've sold me. About the milkshake.

Sure, three might have reigned, but that might not include Cultivation, she may just be an acquaintance of Honor's, or a friend, as surely you would get to know your fellow Shards? Also, the 'three' who reigned might not have done so from Roshar, but may have been an alliance around the Cosmere.

This is most strongly hinted by the wording of the prophecy, 'three of sixteen once ruled', there are sixteen Shards in total, and thus, it wasn't 'one out of three on Roshar who reign' it is 'three out of sixteen in the Cosmere'.

The most likely explanation as to why Odium now rules is because he came from his Shardworld, killed Aona, Skai and Tanavast, the 'three' in alliance, and then sets his sights on ruling their Shardworlds. Hence the danger to Roshar.

[hoser]

Sure, three might have reigned, but that might not include Cultivation, she may just be an acquaintance of Honor's, or a friend, as surely you would get to know your fellow Shards? Also, the 'three' who reigned might not have done so from Roshar, but may have been an alliance around the Cosmere.

From the interview database:

Interview: Oct 15th, 2010

17th Shard Interview (Verbatim)

17th Shard

Is Cultivation a Shard on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Cultivation is. (very inquisitively) Where did you get that word?

17TH SHARD

It's in the book.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Is it in the book? Okay.

17th Shard

It's mentioned once.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, one of the Shards from Roshar is Cultivation.

There are ways to parse things to rationalize these quotes to make them mean other things, but Occam keeps cutting me when I think anything other than that Honor, Cultivation and Odium were the three Shards on Roshar being referred to .

Speaking of relationships between Shards, the cracked idea I had was that the purelaker story was sort of true and Tanavast and Rayse were brothers.

[valkynphyre]

From the interview database:

There are ways to parse things to rationalize these quotes to make them mean other things, but Occam keeps cutting me when I think anything other than that Honor, Cultivation and Odium were the three Shards on Roshar being referred to .

Speaking of relationships between Shards, the cracked idea I had was that the purelaker story was sort of true and Tanavast and Rayse were brothers.

OOH! I like that one!

[Odium's_Shard]

But my theory about the alliance still holds. Even if Cultivation was a Shard on Roshar, that doesn't in any way mean that she 'ruled' with the Three. The three could easily still be Aona, Skai and Tanavast.

And on the brother subject I got the idea that Ati and Leras were brothers. I probably sound stupid because its probably very obvious in the book, because they both had ginger hair or something, but I never noticed that when I was reading Mistborn. The reason I got the idea was because of their Shard opposition and the way in which they acted as Shards. They seemed very childish in ways.

[Aeshdan]

I probably sound stupid because its probably very obvious in the book, because they both had ginger hair or something

They didn't. Ati had red hair, Leras black.

[Odium's_Shard]

But they were brothers, right?

[stellgod]

I wonder if we've met Cultivation yet. I'm with the group that believes she is Shin, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was a minor character somewhere that's "cultivating" someone's personality to become better? I'd like to say Dalinar's wife but that kind of blows the Shin theory out of the water.

[Windrunner]

Well from what we've seen Shards don't really have physical bodies that can walk around and talk. While they're holding the Shard they are sort of vaporized. Unless you're talking about Ruin's illusions he creates? I don't think those were corporeal though, so Dalinar wouldn't be having kids with her.

But they were brothers, right?

Not as far as we know.

[stellgod]

I have much to learn sensei...

[Windrunner]

It's all good dude, about a year ago I was right where you are now. It's a lot to take in at one time, (especially without the wiki being in a particularly useful state). So that's what we're all here for, to help each other get better at this Cosmere stuff and to have a good time while we're doing it. If you've got any questions there's a topic you can ask at, or you can log into the chatroom and I can answer them there. (it's an irc channel at #cosmere)

[Aethling]

Well, we do have a character that is semi-corporeal, flitters around as wind or leaves, can change form, is female, and has a symbiotic relationship with humans. I very, very much doubt she is Cultivation though.

I like the idea that Cultivation is hiding somwehere in Shin lands. The society seems to have been made deliberately peaceful, even unnaturally so. That would enable them to determine someone under Odium's control much easier.

[Dros]

Looking at Brandon's quote cited above:

One of the Shards from Roshar is Cultivation.

and then taking into account another one:

Odium is not native to Roshar.

...leads me to believe there were/are three Shards besides Odium on Roshar. It's possible Cultivation's dead and the other Shard has fled, and that's why Odium feels confident in physically locating his essence on Roshar and bringing on the Final Desolation. He doesn't think there's anyone with significant authority and power left to oppose him.

[CabbageHead]

Well, we do have a character that is semi-corporeal, flitters around as wind or leaves, can change form, is female, and has a symbiotic relationship with humans. I very, very much doubt she is Cultivation though.

I like the idea that Cultivation is hiding somwehere in Shin lands. The society seems to have been made deliberately peaceful, even unnaturally so. That would enable them to determine someone under Odium's control much easier.

Looking at the difference between Shin lands and the rest of Roshar that we know about, we can certainly see the influence of Cultivation in their culture. Farmers, or "He Who Adds" are revered above all others in their society. However, and I've mentioned this somewhere else in some random other thread, Cultivation's direct influence on the world is possibly more pronounced, and even necessary, in all of the world outside of the Shin lands. Everywhere else, people struggle to produce food from weird plants that flourish with a complete lack of soil. The Shin may be her most loyal and devout followers, but it seems she does her greatest works elsewhere, where it is most needed.

[kari-no-sugata]

Looking at the difference between Shin lands and the rest of Roshar that we know about, we can certainly see the influence of Cultivation in their culture. Farmers, or "He Who Adds" are revered above all others in their society. However, and I've mentioned this somewhere else in some random other thread, Cultivation's direct influence on the world is possibly more pronounced, and even necessary, in all of the world outside of the Shin lands. Everywhere else, people struggle to produce food from weird plants that flourish with a complete lack of soil. The Shin may be her most loyal and devout followers, but it seems she does her greatest works elsewhere, where it is most needed.

Certainly the Shin seem quite different from everyone else on Roshar. Based on what Kaladin saw in that wind swept dream of his, it looks like just about every land has very regular conflict. Is Shin the only place at peace? And if so, it seems rather unlikely to be "just because". Hopefully we wont have to wait too long to get a better idea of what makes that place tick.

One thing I noticed more fully on a re-read is the importance of 'crem' in rain from highstorms. It makes the water dangerous to drink until it's had a chance to settle out. It also solidifies on buildings, requiring continuous maintenance. Yet, it also helps plants grow - it seems pretty vital for life overall. It seems likely that some Shardholder "made it so" but hard to say who. Lots of interesting little mysteries.

Going back to my original post. Just to repeat in a way: from what Brandon says, we know that Odium is out to disable/splinter/shatter all other Shards. Honor claims to have been killed by him. So what reason could Odium have for not trying to splinter/whatever Cultivation? Given that the other Shardholder on Roshar is gone already, it seems unlikely that Odium could use Cultivation against other Shardholders somehow. Waiting "just because" seems a bit flimsy too. So, either Odium is unable to harm Cultivation or has already harmed Cultivation. In the latter scenario, it's not impossible to imagine the Shardholder changing hands.

Consider the potential use of it as a literary device: we have the "word of god" (Honor) stating that Cultivation is female. We know Odium and Honor are male. So, if we see a "male Shardholder" being active on Roshar we would naturally assume it to be Odium. But Honor's words would only have been true up until his "death" (ie when they were recorded). It just seemed a little odd - in Honor's last/first message to Dalinar, he talks kinda vaguely most of the time but suddenly slips in the info that Cultivation is female. Micro info-dump or reader missleading...?

But evidence? Yeah, sorry. Not so much. Hence, just a random theory.

[Vortaan]

... Odd thought. Do we have evidence that "The Broken One" is Odium? Three Shards on Roshar. Honor is splintered, Cultivation is a no-show so far... is it possible the third Shard is the one behind the extreme conditions on Roshar? The reason I ask is that the mind of a Shard is apparently the weakest part, as evidenced in the conflict between Ruin and Preservation. If Odium discovered a way to simply break the mind of a Shardholder... wouldn't that eliminate it as a threat without creating the possibility of someone else taking up that Shard?

[CabbageHead]

... Odd thought. Do we have evidence that "The Broken One" is Odium? Three Shards on Roshar. Honor is splintered, Cultivation is a no-show so far... is it possible the third Shard is the one behind the extreme conditions on Roshar? The reason I ask is that the mind of a Shard is apparently the weakest part, as evidenced in the conflict between Ruin and Preservation. If Odium discovered a way to simply break the mind of a Shardholder... wouldn't that eliminate it as a threat without creating the possibility of someone else taking up that Shard?

I'd feel fairly confident that the "Broken One" refers to Odium, just from the nature of the descriptive power of the name of the Shard. Perhaps even going so far as saying that Odium was the constituent part of Adonalsium that caused the shattering. Splintering a Shard whose nature was "Cultivation" might possibly cause the birth of multiple new Shards. Maybe Odium just sees her as something that can be worked around, but not to be messed with.

Edited August 15, 2012 by CabbageHead

[Dros]

... Odd thought. Do we have evidence that "The Broken One" is Odium? Three Shards on Roshar. Honor is splintered, Cultivation is a no-show so far... is it possible the third Shard is the one behind the extreme conditions on Roshar? The reason I ask is that the mind of a Shard is apparently the weakest part, as evidenced in the conflict between Ruin and Preservation. If Odium discovered a way to simply break the mind of a Shardholder... wouldn't that eliminate it as a threat without creating the possibility of someone else taking up that Shard?

I've thought about that as well. However, it's possible there's something wrong with Odium beyond just hating everything. Is it possible for the mind controlling a Shard to go mad?

[Aeshdan]

I've thought about that as well. However, it's possible there's something wrong with Odium beyond just hating everything. Is it possible for the mind controlling a Shard to go mad?

Why not? It would certainly explain why Odium is so dangerous, especially since being crazy might let him bypass some of the restrictions of his Intent (on the common principle that you can't use mind-control on a crazy person).

[dj26792]

I dont think Odium is mad the word odium means a very cold logical hatred, very neutral evil rather than chaotic evil or in less nerdy terms Odium is more like Bane rather than the Joker but thats still pretty broken, and I dont think a crazy person could achieve what Odium has

[CabbageHead]

the word odium means a very cold logical hatred, very neutral evil rather than chaotic evil..... and I dont think a crazy person could achieve what Odium has

I like that thought. Odium is a gamer type personifying evil

[Observer]

Quick brain dump. Where these thoughts will lead me is up in the air.

Who's "broken"?

1: Honor

2: Adonalsium

3: Devotion

4: Dominion

Possibly: Cultivation and Hoid

Crazy idea: What if Adonalsium is the broken one? Say he/she's making a comeback, that his/her mind is split between all the shards, and that he/she's using those mental fragments to accomplish some goal?

Could there be a fourth shard that reigns over ever Odium?

Could the phrase about the broken one be prophetic? They talk about the Everstorm to come,so what if one of them is talking about a broken somebody taking over? If that's true, everything we know about who comes out on top just got turned on its head.