Cultivation enters the chat?

[SprenWrangler]

What am I missing? 

I thought the binding of Odium to Roshar also had something to do with Cultivation? If so, how much of that binding be changed through a contest that doesn’t seem to involve her much and that she hasn’t agreed to? Seems a little arrogant to think that the larger situation can be altered without Cultivation being involved.

Or, at what point does an entity that controls 1/16th of the power of the universe want to step in and see how she can use the situation to further aspects of Cultivation? 

And was trapping Odium done in a way that left Cultivation feeling like the situation is too stagnant? And, especially with Tanavast not making it through the conflict intact, is she feeling increasingly stuck in the situation, too? Maybe maintaining Odium’s confinement had to be done in a way that has been slowly weakening Koravellium Avast’s connection to Cultivation. Is her plotting an effort to force that situation (and her) to grow?

Are the changes we’re reading about in the epigraphs more likely if Cultivation is an active party to the contest? 

More practically for the story building, how fun would it be to have Cultivation step in and up the stakes involved in the contest?
 

[Ashbringer he/him]

From what I've seen, Cultivation is playing very carefully and very purposefully. Honor's the one that Odium wanted to kill, and seems to have taken the fall for binding Odium to the planet. We know that's she's interfering with some individuals (Dalinar, Lift, Taravangian), we know that she's spreading her Investiture across Roshar in a few specific (and unspecified) ways, and we know that Odium has been very careful with dealing with her. And we also know that, while Dalinar is the one creating the contest of champions, Cultivation is enforcing it - Rayse mentions somewhere that if he breaks his agreement, Cultivation would kill him.

From my own interpretation - the original agreement / binding was between Honor and Odium alone. Odium was bound to Roshar and perhaps to other agreements (the Oathpact?), Honor was weakened enough that Odium was able to (perhaps mostly) kill him without major damage like he sustained versus Ambition. That left Cultivation unbound and unagreed, and with a power imbalance above or equal to that of Odium, and basically waiting with a sniper bead on Odium waiting for him to make a wrong move.

 

Also remember, Cultivation had a major hand in getting Taravangian to kill off Rayse and Ascend to Odium at the end of RoW, and in preventing Dalinar from falling to Odium at the end of OB. I'd imagine she's quite pleased with those plans paying off.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, SprenWrangler said:

What am I missing? 

I thought the binding of Odium to Roshar also had something to do with Cultivation? If so, how much of that binding be changed through a contest that doesn’t seem to involve her much and that she hasn’t agreed to? Seems a little arrogant to think that the larger situation can be altered without Cultivation being involved.

It seems she had nothing to do with Odium's binding, at least directly. She and Honor did agree to allow Odium to settle on Roshar, but that was separate from his binding - Honor did it alone. Rayse even keeps naming them "Honor's restrictions." But she was involved in the fight against Odium, just like Honor was.

So the Contest and the Terms have nothing to do with Cultivation, because this matter is between Honor and Odium alone. RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015)

[+robardin he/him]

Even if whatever has been "binding" Odium to Roshar is something Honor did, Cultivation was/is definitely "in cahoots" with Honor against Cultivation, as we can see with the Nightwatcher and even more so, the Sibling / Urithiru being her contribution of 1.5/3.0 Splintered Spren being used for Bondsmith Radiants.

In fact you could say that the very existence of the ten order of Radiants, where the appropriate ten kinds of sentient spren were "inspired by the ten Honorblades" to enter into Nahel bonds with humans (and thus, began after the Oathpact was made/cycle of Desolations kicked off), is a massive workaround of the Oathpact.

Odium / Honor: As part of the deal, Honor gets Ten immortal Heralds, recycling between Braize and Roshar, wielding Ten Honorblades granting two Surges each, leading the humans worshipping Honor as the Almighty; vs. some fixed number (500? We don't get that number, right?) of Fused for Odium to recycle between Braize and Roshar leading Team Singers following him.

LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!

Cultivation: ... hmmm Imma convince, some might say "cultivate", some sentient spren into bonding humans, and get lots more Surgebinders on that side! Even when all the immortals are on Braize!

Odium: WHAT? THAT'S CHEATING, WOMAN!!!

Cultivation: That's "dragon" and you know it. Come say that to my face!

Odium: I PLAN TO, AS SOON AS I AM DONE WITH... WITH... AAAARRGH

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 8/27/2024 at 7:41 AM, alder24 said:

It seems she had nothing to do with Odium's binding, at least directly. She and Honor did agree to allow Odium to settle on Roshar, but that was separate from his binding - Honor did it alone.

Stormfather claims she's part of it, OB 38:

Spoiler

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

Guess he could be lying but I'm not sure why he would be here, and I'm not sure where he'd get a mistaken impression of her involvement from either.

[+robardin he/him]

3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Stormfather claims she's part of it, OB 38:

  Hide contents

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

Guess he could be lying but I'm not sure why he would be here, and I'm not sure where he'd get a mistaken impression of her involvement from either.

That's a good catch (and I don't think you need to spoiler a quote from the SF in Oathbringer, especially in this sub-forum about Cosmere-wide discussion of SA5 early chapters)!

Even there though, he refers to "Honor' in the singular a few times - as if the Oathpact were something "powered" by both Honor and Cultivation, but the mechanics or framework something attributed solely to Honor ("THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH... HONOR WAS WRONG").

It definitely came across to me that Cultivation was in a kind of supporting role in that context.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 8/28/2024 at 1:06 PM, robardin said:

(and I don't think you need to spoiler a quote from the SF in Oathbringer, especially in this sub-forum about Cosmere-wide discussion of SA5 early chapters)!

Saves space since spoiler boxes are collapsed by default, unlike quote boxes.

On 8/28/2024 at 1:06 PM, robardin said:

Even there though, he refers to "Honor' in the singular a few times - as if the Oathpact were something "powered" by both Honor and Cultivation, but the mechanics or framework something attributed solely to Honor ("THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH... HONOR WAS WRONG").

The Oathpact was solely Honor's doing, but the Oathpact is only indirectly part of Odium's binding, there's something "greater" keeping him in place.

Spoiler

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Spoiler

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

Presumably this greater thing is what the Stormfather is referring to with "AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION".

[+robardin he/him]

23 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Saves space since spoiler boxes are collapsed by default, unlike quote boxes.

The Oathpact was solely Honor's doing, but the Oathpact is only indirectly part of Odium's binding, there's something "greater" keeping him in place.

  Hide contents

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

  Hide contents

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

Presumably this greater thing is what the Stormfather is referring to with "AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION".

I agree - the "Oathpact" of the Heralds with Honorblades (not Honor-and-Cultivation Blades) were a thing of Honor alone, yet the "sealing" of Odium had both Honor and Cultivation's powers involved.

This is something we have yet to have fully explained - and may not even after SA5, it could be a full ten-book arc type of reveal.

But exactly how was the Oathpact ever supposed to resolve? Aside from the fact that it seems inevitably to drive all the immortal principals on both sides - Fused and Heralds alike - into madness in the end?

I mean, from the Fused POV, they are signing up to become immortal to span the generations of singers they'd have to lead to take back Roshar from the humans, which they knew would take a long time. That implies they foresaw a way that could even possibly end (I guess, Kill All Humans?)

So what was the opposite end game, for the Heralds and humanity (originally without Radiants)? Kill all the singers? That never really seemed to be the goal, or they wouldn't have enslaved the mindless "parsh" or done some massive genocidal campaign in between Desolations while the singers were without Invested leadership. (And when Jasnah brings this up as one of the logical end goals, it's basically dismissed as an impossibly monstrous atrocity.)

Before Ahrietiam, the Desolations got shorter and shorter as the Heralds broke more and more quickly - or rather, one of the non-Taln Heralds would break more and more quickly. Did that make Team Odium feel like victory was close at hand?

Was that even a "victory condition", if we break the Heralds enough that they (all?) forswear the Oathpact, ...

...then what? Would Rayse/Odium be freed, as he so fervently wished?

But in that case, why would he EVER agree to the Contest of Champions? It was implied that Odium also wished for an end to the endless repeating cycle.

(Of course, at the time Odium agreed to the Contest at Thaylen Fields, he was pretty confident of Dalinar falling to become his champion, so, there's that.)

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

This is something we have yet to have fully explained - and may not even after SA5, it could be a full ten-book arc type of reveal.

But exactly how was the Oathpact ever supposed to resolve? Aside from the fact that it seems inevitably to drive all the immortal principals on both sides - Fused and Heralds alike - into madness in the end?

I mean, from the Fused POV, they are signing up to become immortal to span the generations of singers they'd have to lead to take back Roshar from the humans, which they knew would take a long time. That implies they foresaw a way that could even possibly end (I guess, Kill All Humans?)

So what was the opposite end game, for the Heralds and humanity (originally without Radiants)? Kill all the singers? That never really seemed to be the goal, or they wouldn't have enslaved the mindless "parsh" or done some massive genocidal campaign in between Desolations while the singers were without Invested leadership. (And when Jasnah brings this up as one of the logical end goals, it's basically dismissed as an impossibly monstrous atrocity.)

From what I remember, I think the original plan of the Oathpact was that the Heralds would stay on Braize forever, enduring forever and never breaking, keeping the formerly-endless Fused (who had been established previously) at bay. The fact that a Herald could "break" and agree to let the Fused return to Roshar in exchange for not being tortured any longer was a loophole in that humans can bend their words, while Investiture beings like Shards and Spren have much greater difficulty in doing so.

I would note that there might not have been an Endgame, even with the Desolations. That's somewhat the point of the current Contest of Champions - it forces an end to the fighting, at least until one side finds a way to break the stalemate, but it's implied that it's not an end solution. Odium will find a way out eventually, or devise another alternative like the Everstorm, the same way the Heralds would eventually break and return a Desolation. But it buys humans the thing they need: time.

 

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Was that even a "victory condition", if we break the Heralds enough that they (all?) forswear the Oathpact, ...

...then what? Would Rayse/Odium be freed, as he so fervently wished?

But in that case, why would he EVER agree to the Contest of Champions? It was implied that Odium also wished for an end to the endless repeating cycle.

(Of course, at the time Odium agreed to the Contest at Thaylen Fields, he was pretty confident of Dalinar falling to become his champion, so, there's that.)

I don't think so. The Heralds can break the pact as much as they wish, and the only thing damaged is the pacts they made in the Oathpact (meaning the binding of the Fused to Braize, although with the Everstorm that seems to have become a moot point, for now). But Dalinar, as Bondsmith bound to the spren holding the bulk of Honor's oaths, can act essentially as Honor in agreements - meaning Dalinar can alter aspects of Honor's agreement binding Odium to Roshar. If Dalinar breaks his oaths, that breaks the original binding and Odium's free to go.

(I assume yes, that's why he agreed; potentially also it opened Odium up to claiming Dalinar as his champion in the first place, which would have been very bad if he'd succeeded. Then after he agreed in OB, he had to agree to some terms of actually holding the contest in RoW.)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

So what was the opposite end game, for the Heralds and humanity (originally without Radiants)? Kill all the singers?

From our current information, it seems the plan was just to imprison the Fused for eternity, the whole cycle of Desolations was never supposed to happen (Oathbringer ch. 38):

Spoiler

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

"He was like a spren himself," Dalinar said. "You told me before—Odium too."

HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL. THE TEN HERALDS WERE SEALED UPON DAMNATION, TRAPPING THE VOIDBRINGERS THERE. HOWEVER, IF ANY ONE OF THE TEN AGREED TO BEND HIS OATH AND LET VOIDBRINGERS PAST, IT OPENED A FLOOD. THEY COULD ALL RETURN.

 

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Was that even a "victory condition", if we break the Heralds enough that they (all?) forswear the Oathpact, ...

...then what? Would Rayse/Odium be freed, as he so fervently wished?

The Heralds were apparently somewhat analogous to champions:

Spoiler

Argent

Are the Heralds champions of Honor in the same way that Tanavast was encouraging Dalinar to force Odium to choose a champion?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

Which explains one of the Stormfather's lines in the prologue:

Spoiler

“And the owners of these?” he said, gesturing to the Blades. “What did the Heralds believe?”

If they had been entirely truthful, the Stormfather said, then I would not be seeking a new champion.

And might be why Rayse is so salty in Oathbringer ch. 122:

Spoiler

“Our word is the contract. I am not some spren of Honor, who seeks to obey only the strictest letter of a promise. If you have an agreement from me, I will keep it in spirit, not merely in word.”

Perhaps Tanavast got him to agree to some sort of contest, but the Oathpact somehow worked around this (keeping the champions from ever dying so it never ends?), which left him feeling like Honor is a dirty dirty cheat?

 

4 hours ago, robardin said:

But in that case, why would he EVER agree to the Contest of Champions? It was implied that Odium also wished for an end to the endless repeating cycle.

Honor seemed fairly unsure that he would agree (The Way of Kings ch. 75):

Spoiler

“I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And … without the Dawnshards … Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.”

Ultimately, the only reason he did is because he thought he had Dalinar in his pocket and could freely set the terms in his own favor. After that, it's implied the power pressed Rayse into negotiating because it was fed up with him delaying what he had promised to do.