New Contract Loophole Theory: Ecological Disaster

[coolsnow7]

I’ve been toying with this idea internally but I haven’t spent too much time on it because I find it kinda boring. But given the very clear foreshadowing of the structural health of Roshar being at risk in this book, time to put it on paper.

Can Odium be bound to Roshar if Roshar is destroyed? I recognize that Odium is technically bound to the Rosharan system, not Roshar the planet itself. Let’s leave that aside for now - either assume that Odium is bound to the planet itself, or that in the (presumably upcoming) ecological disaster Braize and Ashlyn get destroyed too. Would whatever restrictions Honor placed on Odium hold if the place that they were tied to no longer exists?

Why I think this line has potential is that it fits the bill of a) something Wit wouldn’t have thought of, because he expected Rayse to try to win the contest outright; b) something that would require knowledge of Shardic mechanics to know how to parse; c) something that Taravangian can arrange: he can pick a champion such that, if Dalinar kills them, Roshar collapses. 
 

Some evidence:

Deathrattles: we have Deathrattles building up to ecological disaster centering around stone and storms. In particular stone:

Quote

And all the world was shattered! The rocks trembled with their steps, and the stones reached toward the heavens. We die! We die!

Quote

They break the land itself! They want it, but in their rage they will destroy it. Like the jealous man burns his rich things rather than let them be taken by his enemies! They come!

 

 

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

Storms:

Quote

Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.

Quote

 

Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms—illuminate the silence above.

Quote

The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather!

Dalinar’s visions: in Oathbringer ch. 109, we have a very peculiar reaction from Odium when Dalinar brings Venli into a vision: he proceeds to dismantle the city Dalinar and Venli are in - namely Alethkar - and then dismantles the stones that comprise the ground itself. Only a single cliff where Dalinar was standing remained intact.

Now you might say, that has nothing to do with Odium’s intentions - it’s just how he dismantles visions. And yet, we’ve seen this before: this was Honor’s parting vision to Dalinar - down to first destroying the Windblades of Alethkar. 

And it’s interesting to note what Odium tells Dalinar:

Quote

“Oh Dalinar, Dalinar. You will destroy [Roshar]. I will rebuild it.” (Oathbringer ch. 109)

Converging themes and foreshadowing: Wind and Truth has several themes that have been building up that we know are connected:

- we know that the Recreance was a decision made by Radiants and Spren to save the world from destruction.

- the RoW epigraphs from Kelek told us that the capture of BAM did damage to Roshar the planet and continues to do so.

- we know that the Shin worship stone in a way that makes no sense to us now, and that we’re going to find out what that’s about in this book.

- we also have more than a few indications that Rosharan stone is unusual and seems to be alive in some way: we have a specific stone shaping surge independent from soulcasting, we have the curious episode of Ishar transferring human Connection to stone, and we have Dalinar hearing the stone maintain ideas about its “rightful” configuration as a statue.

It makes sense for these to come together climactically in some way at the Contest of Champions.

So to offer a specific prediction (with very loose conviction) on how this will play out: TOdium will introduce a Champion whose death would entail the destruction of Roshar itself (via bonds between stone dissolving somehow). Dalinar will be faced with a dilemma: either cede the Contest of Champions, with all that entails, or win and destroy Roshar, freeing Odium (and likely relegating humans to Braize.) Unclear which Dalinar will choose; there are death rattles supporting either one.

Anyway, like all theories around the contract loophole, this is quite speculative and I have low conviction that it’s right. But I think it makes more sense than just about any of the other theories out there. 
 

(PS to mods: I’m not sure if this is the right forum for this thread; feel free to move it if I’m wrong!)

Edited August 18, 2024 by coolsnow7
Better writing

[NewGuy 16]

This is a really cool theory! And after all, we have seen a Shard try and Ruin a planet before that it was previously unable to escape… it certainly feels like the type of insane loophole that people would overlook!

[LewsTherinTelescope]

It's an interesting idea for sure. I don't know if Taravangian is willing to go that far to escape though? Keeping his home safe has been the top priority this entire time.

....Dammit, there is the "watched his homeland fall into dust" Rattle you posted.....

[Ashbringer he/him]

A good amount of those Death Rattles seem to relate to the burning of Ashyn. Not sure if those would actually be Death Rattles, as they were past events? But could be echoes.

I do feel like the destruction of Roshar was stated as an explicit end of Odium’s binding, somewhere.

[coolsnow7]

On 8/15/2024 at 3:25 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It's an interesting idea for sure. I don't know if Taravangian is willing to go that far to escape though? Keeping his home safe has been the top priority this entire time.

....Dammit, there is the "watched his homeland fall into dust" Rattle you posted.....

These are both good points. I would add that Taravangian is exactly the person to convince himself that, actually, the honorable thing to do is to sacrifice his homeland for the “benefit” of his “saving” the broader Cosmere from their broken gods. “Would that I could save Kharbranth” blah blah blah all over again. But yes the theory does hinge on Taravangian no longer prioritizing Kharbranth the way he did before his Ascent.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

12 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I would add that Taravangian is exactly the person to convince himself that, actually, the honorable thing to do is to sacrifice his homeland for the “benefit” of his “saving” the broader Cosmere from their broken gods.

He was willing to sacrifice all the rest of Roshar for Kharbranth before, though.

[teknopathetic he/him]

What happens if Odium kills a Dalinar before the contest? 
 

Would that void the agreement because Dalinar was unable to provide his soul? Maybe Todium doesn’t care about turning Dalinar into a Fused

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

What happens if Odium kills a Dalinar before the contest? 
 

Would that void the agreement because Dalinar was unable to provide his soul? Maybe Todium doesn’t care about turning Dalinar into a Fused

My guess is it'd pass onto whoever the Stormfather picks next, or perhaps even Stormfather himself if he doesn't bond anyone in time. Now that could be very interesting...

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

What happens if Odium kills a Dalinar before the contest? 

Well that would be easier said then done now that Urithiru is back up and running, it's become almost completely unassailable to any Voidbringer forces.

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Would that void the agreement because Dalinar was unable to provide his soul?

I don't think Dalinar would need to give his soul to Odium should he lose, I think it'll just give Odium permission to just flat out take it after Dalinar dies.

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Maybe Todium doesn’t care about turning Dalinar into a Fused

Probably not, which makes me think that Taravangian is going to have a little slip up and make an out of character comment to Dalinar like he did with Hoid, only he won't be able to erase his memories so easily. Probably talk about 'Saving' the Cosmere instead of conquering it like Rayse would.

[BinarySecond]

Important to note that I don't think Taravangian can cause any harm to come to Kharbranth.

Odium is bound by oath to keep leave it unharmed - Can Taravangian walk back an oath his current "office" made with himself in his previous "office"? He cannot break the Oath as that leaves him vulnerable - As stated by Rayse to Dalinar. 

I don't think he would be able to cleanly divest himself of the oath he swore.

"Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

[Ashbringer he/him]

9 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Important to note that I don't think Taravangian can cause any harm to come to Kharbranth.

Odium is bound by oath to keep leave it unharmed - Can Taravangian walk back an oath his current "office" made with himself in his previous "office"? He cannot break the Oath as that leaves him vulnerable - As stated by Rayse to Dalinar. 

I don't think he would be able to cleanly divest himself of the oath he swore.

"Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

I think this is true. Depends if Taravangian can still be bound to an oath with Taravangian, and if Taravangian didn't break his end of the oath to Rayse by... er... killing him.

[BinarySecond]

9 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I think this is true. Depends if Taravangian can still be bound to an oath with Taravangian, and if Taravangian didn't break his end of the oath to Rayse by... er... killing him.

I think the oath is with Odium rather than Rayse; and at no point did Rayse require Taravangian not to kill him - How's that for honoring the letter and spirit of the agreement 

I can't recall the exact lines in RoW as he ascends and contemplates the agreement unfortunately.

[coolsnow7]

On 8/18/2024 at 5:33 PM, teknopathetic said:

What happens if Odium kills a Dalinar before the contest? 
 

Would that void the agreement because Dalinar was unable to provide his soul? Maybe Todium doesn’t care about turning Dalinar into a Fused

Dalinar just represents humanity and/or Honor. Honor’s restrictions on Odium persisted even after Honor died; Dalinar dying shouldn’t do anything at all.

Dalinar losing his title as leader of humanity is a different story - but that’s not what you’re asking.

18 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Important to note that I don't think Taravangian can cause any harm to come to Kharbranth.

Odium is bound by oath to keep leave it unharmed - Can Taravangian walk back an oath his current "office" made with himself in his previous "office"? He cannot break the Oath as that leaves him vulnerable - As stated by Rayse to Dalinar. 

I don't think he would be able to cleanly divest himself of the oath he swore.

"Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

This is silly: in literally any legal system real-life humanity has devised, if you and I make an agreement obligating you to something, I am empowered to release you from your obligation under any circumstances I choose. Odium agreed to leave Kharbranth intact in exchange for Taravangian’s help; his obligation is to Taravangian, ie himself.

If you want to postulate different principles that Shard law operates on, I mean, no one can stop you I guess.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

This is silly: in literally any legal system real-life humanity has devised, if you and I make an agreement obligating you to something, I am empowered to release you from your obligation under any circumstances I choose. Odium agreed to leave Kharbranth intact in exchange for Taravangian’s help; his obligation is to Taravangian, ie himself.

Brandon has implied that Harmony is suffering consequences from Ruin and Preservation's deal even though he controls both sides:

Spoiler

Kyrroti

Shards can't break oaths, and new Vessels have to follow previous Shards' deals. Ruin and Preservation made a deal. Does Harmony have to follow that deal?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ruin and Preservation deal is considered fulfilled. There's a lot of things going on in here. The way that oaths work, perception is still important. And Shards can break deals, it gives others a way to get at them. Odium could break his deal, but if he did, that's very dangerous to those who would seek to have advantage against him. I think fulfilled is the wrong term, the deal between Ruin and Preservation is broken, and no longer in force because it was broken. This does leave Ruin with more advantage in this situation, but they're the same individual, so I'm sure that's just fine! No problems at all! Everybody's doing just great.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

[BinarySecond]

I think this lends credibility to Taravangian not being able to harm Kharbranth/citizens without Cultivation coming in with the steel chair.

23 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

This is silly: in literally any legal system real-life humanity has devised, if you and I make an agreement obligating you to something, I am empowered to release you from your obligation under any circumstances I choose. Odium agreed to leave Kharbranth intact in exchange for Taravangian’s help; his obligation is to Taravangian, ie himself.

I don't think it's silly. 

1) He can't break the oath - Cultivation or others can exploit the vulnerability that leaves.

2) If he can "cancel" the pact I don't think that's easily done either - I don't think it's impossible but I don't think it would be as simple as "I undo the deal" and it's done.

I'll be happily, perhaps not happily, surprised if this does happen - From a story telling perspective it would feel weak, for me at least.

[coolsnow7]

Some further evidence I dug up over Shabbat, in the very first scene we see of Dalinar, 34 years ago, in Oathbringer Chapter 3: Dalinar captures a prodigious enemy archer alive, and insists that he join Dalinar’s army. The enemy archer wavers, asks for his Brightlord to be spared, Dalinar already killed him, yadda yadda yadda. Then we get this:

Quote

Dalinar shrugged. “How about this? Join with me, and we won’t pillage the town. What’s left of it, anyway.”

Coincidence? That Dalinar is giving this archer the exact same choice: join Odium, or Odium destroys Roshar?

Note also that this is juxtaposed to the final vision from the Almighty, wherein Roshar gets destroyed by Odium (it’s actually much more explicit in this book than in The Way of Kings).

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 8/20/2024 at 12:54 AM, coolsnow7 said:

...This is silly: in literally any legal system real-life humanity has devised, if you and I make an agreement obligating you to something, I am empowered to release you from your obligation under any circumstances I choose. Odium agreed to leave Kharbranth intact in exchange for Taravangian’s help; his obligation is to Taravangian, ie himself...

I am restricting myself to contract law as it has developed in the United States when I say this is not correct. Contract formation is an extremely elaborate process, and one party cannot unilaterally abandon the agreement/contract under any circumstances they choose--unless the defense is that an agreement/contract was never actually realized. An enforceable agreement/contract needs to have: 1. mutual assent (which is often broken down into two components: a valid offer, and acceptance), and 2. "consideration" (obligation is a decent substitute for that legal term of art) from both parties; legality and capacity are other factors but I don't think either of those are relevant here.

Odium agreed to leave Kharbranth intact in exchange for Taravangian's help, Taravangian provided that help, fulfilling his side of the bargain, now Odium must "perform" his side of the bargain. When thinking in terms of goofy legal abstractions, it may be better to analogize Shards to Corporations and their vessels to some kind of executive officer. The contractual agreements/obligations of the corporation (Odium) do not expire simply because the old CEO (Rayse) has been replaced with someone new (Taravangian), even though this particular agreement is one that the new CEO personally supervised/has a personal stake in; it is not inconceivable for this new CEO, acting in his executive capacity of the corporation, to undermine that agreement themselves, for whatever reason, and be exposed to liability.

The vagaries of all this is why I think Brandon, in chapter 14 writes:

Quote

...After Dalinar and Odium had agreed upon the terms, the Sibling had been able to quote for them the exact wording. They indicated that an agreement between gods wasn’t quite a contract, but it could be written out as one...

Having the terms of the contest be an actual contract/follow actual contract principles is excellent grist for dirtbag lawyers like myself, but probably would end up bogging down the story; they call it a "contract" because it's the closest analog our dumb, mortal, brains can comprehend.

Edited September 28, 2024 by Aleph-Naught

[coolsnow7]

On 9/28/2024 at 5:13 AM, Aleph-Naught said:

Contract formation is an extremely elaborate process, and one party cannot unilaterally abandon the agreement/contract under any circumstances they choose--unless the defense is that an agreement/contract was never actually realized.

Yes, like I said: if both parties mutually agree to abandon the agreement/contract, there are no restrictions.

 

Quote

Odium agreed to leave Kharbranth intact in exchange for Taravangian's help, Taravangian provided that help, fulfilling his side of the bargain, now Odium must "perform" his side of the bargain.

Yes and if Taravangian decides “you know what, Odium, I’m fine if you no longer ‘perform’ your side of the bargain” then Odium is off the hook. Conveniently for Odium, Taravangian and Odium are the same person.

Edited September 29, 2024 by coolsnow7

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 9/29/2024 at 9:04 AM, coolsnow7 said:

Yes, like I said: if both parties mutually agree to abandon the agreement/contract, there are no restrictions.

...and if Taravangian decides “you know what, Odium, I’m fine if you no longer ‘perform’ your side of the bargain” then Odium is off the hook. Conveniently for Odium, Taravangian and Odium are the same person.

But that's not what you said, you stated: 

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...I am empowered to release you from your obligation under any circumstances I choose...

The problem is you keep treating Taravangian and Odium as 'the same person'. Odium is not a person, and Taravangian taking up the shard of Odium doesn't make them indistinguishable from one another--this is so clearly demonstrated throughout the cosmere, and from what Brandon has stated about vessels/shards, that I feel like I don't have to explicate it here. This is why the analogy of shards to corporations works so well: certainly a newly minted CEO of a corporation could renege on an agreement/contract in which he was one of the original parties that bargained with the corporation, but that doesn't mean he can do it with clean hands: even though he's the CEO of the corporation, he's not the corporation itself, he is merely its representative. 

[coolsnow7]

1 hour ago, Aleph-Naught said:

The problem is you keep treating Taravangian and Odium as 'the same person'. Odium is not a person

The problem is you keep making this assumption.

Anyway are you claiming with a straight face that, in American law, if both sides of a contract agree to nullify that contract, they cannot do so?

Edited September 30, 2024 by coolsnow7

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

 

9 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

The problem is you keep making this assumption.

Anyway are you claiming with a straight face that, in American law, if both sides of a contract agree to nullify that contract, they cannot do so?

It's not an assumption, you literally said that:

On 9/29/2024 at 9:04 AM, coolsnow7 said:

Taravangian and Odium are the same person.

And, once again, your original claim was not about both sides of a contract agreeing to abandon/nullify a contract it was about one party unilaterally doing so "...under any circumstances [they] choose..."

If you're going to blindly ignore your original claim because you, I don't know, have some ridiculous need to not be "wrong" in an internet debate about a work of fiction, I have nothing further to say to you.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

@coolsnow7 @Aleph-Naught Chill. It's just a theory about a book.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

@coolsnow7 I said chill.

[+Child of Hodor]

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

My guess is that this will be Szeth. The mountains to the west of Shinovar that block the ocean will be destroyed and the waters will surge in "cleansing" Shinovar. 

To add to your theory more generally in the final vision in WoK Honor shows the ground literally being destroyed and says "it's what he wants" referring to Odium.

Quote

Everything seemed to shake around Dalinar. His preconceptions, what he thought he'd known. The ground itself.

"That is what could happen," the figure said, nodding into the distance. "It's what I fear will happen. It's what he wants. The True Desolation."

WoK Ch. 75 In The Top Room

 

[coolsnow7]

5 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

 

To add to your theory more generally in the final vision in WoK Honor shows the ground literally being destroyed and says "it's what he wants" referring to Odium.

 

GREAT call! I should have read that section more closely!