Breaths that Endow more?

[Trusk'our he/him]

We know that by using Bio-Chromatic Breaths you can store memories within them, probably by using a Command to "give" those memories to the Breath.

However, I wonder if we could take this a step further and effect the s Spiritual as well as the Cognitive Aspect; can attributes from the Spiritweb be transferred via Breath?

For example, if a Nalthian had the right Intent and Command, could they use their Breath as a medium to endow another person with a portion of their strength? Get 40 people to give 20% of their strength and you have the strength of 10 people (only it lasts until you give up the Breath, rather than being strictly temporary).

It would kind of be like how a Divine Breath (or Hemalurgic spikes) works, pinning a piece of Spiritweb to a person, only it's a specific fragment rather than a whole Cognitive Shadow. 

I could realistically see a whole culture on Nalthis that had no idea what "Awakening" of objects was, but who knew how to transfer attributes to one another, like some hybrid between Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. Or, at the very least trading memories with their Breaths, maybe archiving valuable information for centuries with Breath too.

Maybe a Nalthian could give a portion of Spiritual Connection to someone else, allowing them to speak their language while holding their Breath. 

Edited August 1, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Quantus he/him]

Breaths pretty much have to be capable of some level of "Connection Tricks" for Nalthian Worldhoppers to integrate and speak local languages.  

 

To my mind Storing Memories implies that the Investiture of a Breath can be tuned to very complex patters which should be able to mimic a whole lot of realmic effects within it's basic wheelhouse of Physical Investment and Spiritweb interaction.  I think you could probably make a custom Breath Command to do basically anything that a Metalmind can Store (subject to basic Investiture Conservation for overt effects) from Breaths to Weight to Connections or the mysterious Fortune.  You could probably Command a Breath to refill a metalmind directly (since they take on the identity, etc of their target easily enough), though it would be a wildly expensive way to do it.  You might be able to do full-on Forgery with them, though without the vocabulary of a Selish Magic system you'd have to convey a lot more through the pure internal Visualization aspect of the Command.  

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Technical question, is storing memory in Breath superior to metalminds? While caring the Breath within you is definitely better than carrying a metalmind, is that the only benefit? Should we assume someone like Hoid loses those memories while not being accessed (as is the case with a coppermind), or has he expanded the storage capacity of his brain and can remember everything that's stored all the time? Aka, did he make a smaller equivalent to a shard vessel's expanded mind?

[Trusk'our he/him]

28 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Technical question, is storing memory in Breath superior to metalminds? While caring the Breath within you is definitely better than carrying a metalmind, is that the only benefit? Should we assume someone like Hoid loses those memories while not being accessed (as is the case with a coppermind), or has he expanded the storage capacity of his brain and can remember everything that's stored all the time? Aka, did he make a smaller equivalent to a shard vessel's expanded mind?

As we've seen it with Hoid it seems that Breath held memories are superior in most ways, since they also grant Heightenings and you don't have to forget the contents of the Breath to do so; it's more an expansion of one's memory than a separate archive like a Coppermind (though it seems from Vasher's usage in Warbreaker that this is optional). 

However, Metalminds probably aren't susceptible to Leeching and similar effects unless they're currently being tapped.

However, I do think that you could make a bondable Coppermind that effectively expands your mind too; if attributes can be plugged in like a Nicrosilmind's power can, I see no reason why this isn't achievable (though still no Heightenings).

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

you don't have to forget the contents of the Breath to do so;

Memories stored in breath are no longer in your mind, you would have to retrieve them to "remember" the memory - same as a coppermind. That's why Vasher teaching Misel how to store the memory of her kidnapping made her "forget" the entire affair.  

Edited August 2, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our he/him]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Memories stored in breath are no longer in your mind, you would have to retrieve them to "remember" the memory - same as a coppermind. That's why Vasher teaching Misel how to store the memory of her kidnapping made her "forget" the entire affair.  

True with that circumstance, but what of Hoid?

Todium messed with his memory by excising a tiny piece of Breath, which ended up fiddling with his perfect pitch. How would his short term memory be lost if his Breath didn't simply expand his natural mind's storage space?

[Treamayne]

39 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

True with that circumstance, but what of Hoid?

Todium messed with his memory by excising a tiny piece of Breath, which ended up fiddling with his perfect pitch. How would his short term memory be lost if his Breath didn't simply expand his natural mind's storage space?

Caveat - RoW only, not SA5 spoilers:

You are assuming Odium only did one thing in that scene, but read it again. He was not allowed to "harm" Hoid, but  loop-holed the rule to steal some memory imbued breath ("this won't harm you" because they were something he had, but not attached to his concious mind). Then, separately (to disguise the theft), He fiddled with time in that one area (because only that room with Hoid "rewound;" not Design or the "audience") to make Hoid re-live the last few minutes. 

The time-hack is what messed with his short-term memories (which is still not "harm" to Hoid" because it was an area, not just him) but we don't know for sure what memories were stolen in the first interaction.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Caveat - RoW only, not SA5 spoilers:

You are assuming Odium only did one thing in that scene, but read it again. He was not allowed to "harm" Hoid, but  loop-holed the rule to steal some memory imbued breath ("this won't harm you" because they were something he had, but not attached to his concious mind). Then, separately (to disguise the theft), He fiddled with time in that one area (because only that room with Hoid "rewound;" not Design or the "audience") to make Hoid re-live the last few minutes. 

The time-hack is what messed with his short-term memories (which is still not "harm" to Hoid" because it was an area, not just him) but we don't know for sure what memories were stolen in the first interaction.

Fiddled with time? How? It's impossible in Cosmere to rewind time backwards. Odium couldn't have done what you propose. Hoid does store memories in his Breaths, those are somehow more accessible to him all the time - unlike to Misel - because he remembers everything that's happening real time, despite storing it all of it in his Breaths (he had to store his memories as events were unfolding, otherwise Odium wouldn't have been able to delete those memories). The time kept going forward, which is evident by the lack of spren and Design near him and the laws of Cosmere. Hoid has to know how to use Breaths as an extension of his mind, not just as a separate memory storage that one has to access to remember.

Odium stole a fraction of his Breaths that contained the memory of their conversation, making Hoid forget about it ever happening. This left Hoid remembering only what was happening before that conversation, which was "I'm going to meet Odium and talk to him, Design and Sja-Anat spren are watching me" and that's what made him "relive" this conversation. Time wasn't fiddled with, it's all about what he remembered.  

Yumi ch 32:

Quote

“It's absolutely, most definitely, assuredly not time travel,” Design explained to the two of them, resting her elbows on the bar.
“How do you know?” Painter asked.
“Because time travel into the past is impossible,” Design said. “I can show you the math.”
[...]
"But you can’t go back. Nobody, not even a Shard, can do that.”

RoW epilogue:

Quote

Odium, the power said. Let me see … I cannot harm you. But here, you have used this other Investiture to store your memories, haven’t you? Because you’ve lived longer than a mortal should, you need to put the excess memories somewhere. I can’t see your mind, but I can see these, can’t I?
For the first time in a long, long while, Wit felt true terror. If Odium destroyed the Breaths that held his memories …

RoW epigraphs ch 84:

Quote

"Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much."

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You talked about how Hoid would never want to go near Nightblood. If he were to be in proximity to Nightblood, would he be, like, Force-pushed away? Like, he wouldn't be able to get close to him?

Brandon Sanderson

No. He would not want to touch him. The thing about Nightblood is... Hoid's one of the few who knows exactly how dangerous this thing is. And beyond that, Hoid depends so much on the memories that he has in his Breaths, and that would be one of the first things that would get sucked out by Nightblood. So if he were to touch Nightblood, he might lose centuries. And this is a big deal to Hoid. So, yes, he could theoretically pick up Nightblood. It would just be a lot more disastrous more quickly for him than it probably would be for others.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

 

22 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

We know that by using Bio-Chromatic Breaths you can store memories within them, probably by using a Command to "give" those memories to the Breath.

However, I wonder if we could take this a step further and effect the s Spiritual as well as the Cognitive Aspect; can attributes from the Spiritweb be transferred via Breath?

I know what Hoid felt at that moment because I have a weird deja vu feeling that you've already made a topic proposing the exact same thing (too lazy to check it out). Anyway I agree, you can probably transfer some other attributes from Feruchemy just like memories. While I'm unsure if and how this would work with attributes like strength or speed, Divine Breath most definitely should be capable of doing that and temporarily boosting your attributes until it runs out as kinetic investiture - just like it can heal. 

Spoiler

Questioner

When you transfer divine Breath, is it possible to have it result in something other than healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Lots of things are possible. Let's just say that that is not something people know how to do, and they have tried to do something else.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Fiddled with time? How? It's impossible in Cosmere to rewind time backwards. Odium couldn't have done what you propose. Hoid does store memories in his Breaths, those are somehow more accessible to him all the time - unlike to Misel - because he remembers everything that's happening real time, despite storing it all of it in his Breaths (he had to store his memories as events were unfolding, otherwise Odium wouldn't have been able to delete those memories).

I did not mean time travel (hence the imprecise word - fiddle - as the best I could think of at the time) I mean some combination of resetting his position (he was back in the hallway and heading toward the room) and resetting Hoid's perceptions of events. I can accept that the memory of the first meeting was already in a BreathMind (maybe) but I doubt that was the only memory taken (still no SA5 spoilers if I am right or wrong, please). I don't think we have enough evidence to say that BreathMind memories are "live access" as it seems more likely that a mental construct like Sazed's "indeces" is far more likely (allowing recall and return quickly). 

I may agree that it may be possible, but we have far more evidence that stored memories are inaccessible than stored memories being constantly accessible (until we have something more definitive than fan theories on what really happened in this scene). 

Edited August 2, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I mean some combination of resetting his position (he was back in the hallway and heading toward the room)

Because Hoid was already leaving, he walked out of the room during their conversation - he was in the hallway when Odium messed with his memories:

Quote

“Enjoy that!” Wit said, striding toward the door.
[...]
“Yes, but where will you find that many willing horses…” Wit said, continuing on his way out the door.
[...]
Unless …
Wit’s breath caught, but then he forced himself to keep whistling and walking

 

And Odium can't move Hoid's body around. Odium can't use his power on most individuals due to Honor's restrictions and Hoid is still somewhat protected from Odium directly. He can't be moved like this. 

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I can accept that the memory of the first meeting was already in a BreathMind (maybe) but I doubt that was the only memory taken

Odium was very precise with his work. He could see those memories thus he could remove just those that mattered and nothing else. The fact that Hoid remembers that Design and Sja-Anat spren were following him is telling us that he most likely didn't lose anything more, because if he did, those would be the first memories that would have been lost after the memory of their meeting. There was still something wrong with those memories, Hoid was able to tell that it's weird, but it was subtle enough that he didn’t realize what was going on. 

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I don't think we have enough evidence to say that BreathMind memories are "live access" as it seems more likely that a mental construct like Sazed's "indeces" is far more likely (allowing recall and return quickly). 

It would make no sense for Hoid to store his memories in real time, as events were unfolding, if he wasn't able to remember them at the same time. Hoid was actively analyzing his conversation with Odium when Odium returned to him and stole his memories, those had to be in his Breaths, those had to be also remembered by him at the same time. 

Copperminds work by either storing memories in copper and not being remembered, or extracting them from coppermind and not being in metal. Memories are either in your brain or in the metal, not in both places at once. WoA ch 4:

Quote

Sazed searched through his religions coppermind for an appropriate theology. He started with an index—one of the many that he had created. When he had located an appropriate religion, he pulled free detailed memories about its practices. The writings entered his mind as fresh as when he had just finished memorizing them. They would fade, with time, like all memories—however, he intended to place them back in the coppermind long before that happened. It was the way of the Keeper, the method by which his people retained enormous wealths of information.

Sazed's indexes are also being pulled out of the coppermind and put back in it, WoA ch 15:

Quote

He searched through one of his indexes, looking for the right gazetteer. The index was growing fuzzy, its information difficult to remember—which meant that he'd switched it from coppermind to memory and back too many times.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case

Why is my Brandon sense tingling that "basically" might be doing some serious heavy lifting here?

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I don't think we have enough evidence to say that BreathMind memories are "live access" as it seems more likely that a mental construct like Sazed's "indeces" is far more likely (allowing recall and return quickly). 

I feel like Todium saying that he "can't see Hoid's mind" but he could see the last 100-200 seconds in the Breaths, would be a pretty strong argument that Hoid's mind is either full, or he saves that memory storage for things he never wants to lose? Because the last couple of minutes were already in his Breath-storage, and not his mind?

Or maybe, mechanically, they breaths act as a crazy long short-term memory buffer (short-term being taken as loosely as possible) such that those memories may get into his brain at some point, if the Breaths are somehow physically expanding his mind? I dunno, just spitballing a sudden thought there.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

43 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I feel like Todium saying that he "can't see Hoid's mind" but he could see the last 100-200 seconds in the Breaths, would be a pretty strong argument that Hoid's mind is either full, or he saves that memory storage for things he never wants to lose? Because the last couple of minutes were already in his Breath-storage, and not his mind?

Or maybe, mechanically, they breaths act as a crazy long short-term memory buffer (short-term being taken as loosely as possible) such that those memories may get into his brain at some point, if the Breaths are somehow physically expanding his mind? I dunno, just spitballing a sudden thought there.

SA 5 Spoilers:

Spoiler

In the preview chapters we have seen that hoid spends his 'sleeping' time sorting through the memories in his breaths. Considering he only has around 200 breaths, and one or two were taken my TOdium for a few minutes of time, its logical to assume that those 200 breaths could never store the 10,000+ years that Hoid has been alive. I think you are on to something with the breaths being short term storage. He stores current events in the breaths and when he sleeps he reviews the contents and decides what should be kept and what should be forgotten. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a pre-shattering version of a coppermind or a real coppermind for long term memory storage.