Taln’s blade theory (Wind and Truth prologue spoilers).

[slavagh he/him]

This theory is based on two assumptions. The first, the thief knew what he was doing and planned this. Basically, he is not some random guy who improvised on the spot. The second, whoever took the blade made the swap. There is a possibility that Wit planted the deadblade after somebody stole the Honorblade. But it is too far-fetched.

1)      Why somebody swapped the blades?

- To avoid being chased. It is not a valid option. It is easier to kill the convoy to the Shattered planes and avoid spending a precious resource.

- To trick someone that the blade went to Shattered Plains. It is possible, but too convoluted.

- To protect Taln. Somebody might have assumed that Taln dismissed his stolen blade and would kill him to get it.

2)      Who knew Taln would be in Kholinar?

Other Heralds, Odium’s forces, and Stormfather. All secret societies could have known from the Heralds.

3)      None of the secret societies have done the swap.

- Nale and the skybreakers wouldn’t abandon Taln.

- Diagram, Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods, and Aesudan are more interested in Taln himself than his blade. They would not let him go to the shattered planes.

- Odium affiliates would have killed Taln without bothering with the blade swapping.

- It is hard for all of them to do the swap with Wit’s presence.

4)      Herald’s eyes.

I assume all Heralds are a darkeyes when they are not bonded to the blade / spren. Jezrien is a darkeye in the vision after the Recreance. I don’t see why the summoning of the bonded blade would have a different effect on the eyes of a Herald.

5)      Taln’s eyes.

Why are they dark with the blade in his hands? The easiest explanation is that he unbonded the blade.

6)      Prime suspect.

It is a Herald. The one who died on the night of Gavilar's death. The one who was heading to Kholinar. Who is that Herald? Most likely it is Chana (Hello Chana Davar theory).

7)      Chana’s eyes and blade.

Why is she a lighteyes in Davar's household? There are a lot of possibilities. Proto surgebinding before becoming a Herald, yet another retrieved Honorblade, she was bonded to a spren during the Recreance. But the easiest explanation is that she had a deadblade. From WOB's we know that a live bonded spren can go to Braize with the Herald. I think the same can be said about the dead spren. The bonded deadblade won't appear next to the body if you kill the Herald. It will go to Braize.

   Theory.

Chana asked Taln for the blade. Odium forces prevented their physical contact for the swap to happen on Braize. Taln arrived on Roshar, unbonded the blade, and went to Kholinar. Chana took the blade from unstable Taln and made a swap using her deadblade to prevent him from getting harmed. Wit is OK with the swap because she is another Herald.

9)      Why had she needed an Honorblade?

My best guess is to use Kholinar Oathgates. She, as the Herald, is more likely to convince the spren of the Oathgates to allow her the passage to Shadesmar. Maybe allowing her the passage, made the Oathgates susceptible to the corruption by Unmade.

Edited July 16, 2024 by slavagh

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, slavagh said:

I don’t see why the summoning of the bonded blade would have a different effect on the eyes of a Herald.

 

IIRC, Nale's eyes are never described as changing colour when he summons his blade(s) or is surge-binding. I always thought that it was one of the differences between Heralds and everyone else.

Also, not all Heralds have dark eyes - both Kalak and Shalash are light-eyed, for example. 

As to who swapped the blades, I assume that it was the assassin Liss, whom I suspect of being Vedel. Jasnah thought that she may have secretly been in possession of a shardblade. As to why, I really couldn't say. Maybe she didn't want Taln to be recognised as as a Herald for some reason? 

Could have also been Ghostbloods, I imagine. They do like to collect powerful objects.

In any case, Sanderson said that Hoid didn't do it. 

 

[slavagh he/him]

53 minutes ago, Isilel said:

IIRC, Nale's eyes are never described as changing colour when he summons his blade(s) or is surge-binding. I always thought that it was one of the differences between Heralds and everyone else.

Also, not all Heralds have dark eyes - both Kalak and Shalash are light-eyed, for example. 

1) I don’t remember the description of Nale’s eyes. I assume he is permanently a lighteyes because he is 5th ideal radiant. His eyes are not supposed to change during summoning.
2) Are you sure about Kalak’s eyes? I honestly don’t remember how his eyes are described. I’ll pay attention during the next RoW reread.
3) Ash is a lighteyes definitely. I don't have any explanation as to why. But she is a weird Herald. She is Yesrien's daughter in her 20's. Her father looks in his 30th.
4) Taln's eyes being dark with a blade in hand is still weird to me. But it is likely that shards / bonds don't affect the eyes of the heralds at all.

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

I don’t remember the description of Nale’s eyes. I assume he is permanently a lighteyes because he is 5th ideal radiant.

 

I don't think that you can assume that. I don't remember if his eyes are specifically mentioned, but Nale is routinely described as looking Azish/Makabaki, with his only notable  feature being the white birthmark/scar on his cheek. But light eyes are very rare among these peoples. When Shalash is described, it is always noted how unusual her combination of Makabaki appearance with light eyes is. Ditto Lift, who is Reshi, when she has been surge-binding, people notice her eyes being light. Even with Szeth, his eye-color changes to blue and later grey are mentioned. Not so with Nale, though.

I just don't think that Heralds appearance is affected by blades, spren-bonds and surge-binding in  the same way as normal people's are.

If my suspicions about Liss being Vedel are correct, this also might have allowed her to keep a secret shardblade, while remaining dark-eyed. 

[slavagh he/him]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

I don't think that you can assume that. I don't remember if his eyes are specifically mentioned, but Nale is routinely described as looking Azish/Makabaki, with his only notable  feature being the white birthmark/scar on his cheek. But light eyes are very rare among these peoples. When Shalash is described, it is always noted how unusual her combination of Makabaki appearance with light eyes is. Ditto Lift, who is Reshi, when she has been surge-binding, people notice her eyes being light. Even with Szeth, his eye-color changes to blue and later grey are mentioned. Not so with Nale, though.

I just don't think that Heralds appearance is affected by blades, spren-bonds and surge-binding in  the same way as normal people's are.

If my suspicions about Liss being Vedel are correct, this also might have allowed her to keep a secret shardblade, while remaining dark-eyed. 

They might be the exception to the rule. If that is the case, I hope there is some cool explanation as to why.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I put forward a similar theory that it was Chana who swapped Taln's blade a while back, but I feel like you flesh the reasons out a bit better. Chana just asking Taln for his blade makes a lot of sense to me. She would have all sorts of reasons she would want an honorblade, and she would have known where to find it, and with the state Taln is in, wouldn't have had much, or any difficulty, in getting it and then running and hiding wherever she couldn

[alder24]

The problem I have is how would someone even get to Taln in the first place to swap the blades? A mysterious darkeye man just banged to Kholinar's gates with an "unbounded" Shardblade in his hands, warned everybody about incoming Desolation, then collapsed and when he waked up he claimed to be a Herald. They won't leave him out in the open on the streets, they're gonna put him in the most heavily guarded room in the entire Kholinar - and that indeed happened judging from the secrecy of the mission to transport him and his Shardblade to the Shattered Plains. And we know the swap happened AFTER he showed up at Kholinar because of how both blades were described. The blade held by Taln and the one Dalinar bonded aren't the same, Taln had a long and narrow spikelike blade, while Dalinar bonded with a wide, almost cleaverlike one. Somewhere along the way somebody swapped them. Chana would be unable to get close to Taln to swap blades, even if she had a Deadblade.

I think Taln's blade was snatched by Shins. They are the only group of people that collects Honorblades, they have access to Surges and know how to use them to get to Taln, switch his blade and leave unnoticed. They weren't afraid of Szeth losing his blade, because they had means to retrieve it from whatever person were to get it just by using the Surge of Transportation. I think they are the only people having the proper motivation and abilities to swap Taln's Honorblade and not be seen when doing this. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

think Taln's blade was snatched by Shins. They are the only group of people that collects Honorblades, they have access to Surges and know how to use them to get to Taln, switch his blade and leave unnoticed.

Makes sense, and should be confirmed when we visit Shinovar, if true. It's also a logical assumption, and probably the only other group who would have the knowledge and desire to take Taln's blade. Either idea is good with me, as they would both easily make sense upon the reveal. There is also the hanging thread of Szeth's Dad has been killed (or at least died) that we've not yet gotten back around to, that would tie into that theory very well. 

It's possible that Szeth's dad tried to take the blade from Taln and he killed him in an instant? That would be a wild connection. 

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

It's possible that Szeth's dad tried to take the blade from Taln and he killed him in an instant? That would be a wild connection. 

I don't think so because Noturo had Ishar's Honorblade and Ishar said he killed him, which I think was the truth. 

[slavagh he/him]

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The problem I have is how would someone even get to Taln in the first place to swap the blades? A mysterious darkeye man just banged to Kholinar's gates with an "unbounded" Shardblade in his hands, warned everybody about incoming Desolation, then collapsed and when he waked up he claimed to be a Herald. They won't leave him out in the open on the streets, they're gonna put him in the most heavily guarded room in the entire Kholinar - and that indeed happened judging from the secrecy of the mission to transport him and his Shardblade to the Shattered Plains. And we know the swap happened AFTER he showed up at Kholinar because of how both blades were described. The blade held by Taln and the one Dalinar bonded aren't the same, Taln had a long and narrow spikelike blade, while Dalinar bonded with a wide, almost cleaverlike one. Somewhere along the way somebody swapped them. Chana would be unable to get close to Taln to swap blades, even if she had a Deadblade.

I believe that the blade was unbonded when he arrived. He and the blade could have been separated in Kholinar when the swap happened. But I agree, it is hard to explain how somebody had access to either of them.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I think Taln's blade was snatched by Shins. They are the only group of people that collects Honorblades, they have access to Surges and know how to use them to get to Taln, switch his blade and leave unnoticed. They weren't afraid of Szeth losing his blade, because they had means to retrieve it from whatever person were to get it just by using the Surge of Transportation. I think they are the only people having the proper motivation and abilities to swap Taln's Honorblade and not be seen when doing this. 

I like this. I think the blade payoff will be either in Shallan's or Kaladin's storyline. So Shin makes sense. The only problem I have with it is that the Shin know about Taln's sacrifice and what the other Heralds have done to him. He is probably a deific figure for them. Why did they leave him in Kholinar? I guess they could have been corrupted by the Unmade by that time.

4 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I put forward a similar theory that it was Chana who swapped Taln's blade a while back, but I feel like you flesh the reasons out a bit better. Chana just asking Taln for his blade makes a lot of sense to me. She would have all sorts of reasons she would want an honorblade, and she would have known where to find it, and with the state Taln is in, wouldn't have had much, or any difficulty, in getting it and then running and hiding wherever she couldn

Can I have a link? I would like to read it.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

The only problem I have with it is that the Shin know about Taln's sacrifice and what the other Heralds have done to him. He is probably a deific figure for them. Why did they leave him in Kholinar? I guess they could have been corrupted by the Unmade by that time.

Did they know the truth about Taln? I don't know, there is no mention of it on Coppermind. He is a deity, just like all Heralds are, Stone Shamans revere and respect them, but they have no interest in taking care of "children of god." I don't see much reason for them to take Taln with them - he's the son of god, he's way above them, he doesn't need them. But they have a duty to care for Honorblades, to the point that they are unwilling to return them to Heralds, even if they were to ask for their baldes. Honorblades are more important to them then Herald's wellbeing.

As for the Unmade, it's unlikely. In WoK we have Rysn's PoV in Shinovar and everything seems fine there. In OB Shins sent letters to Dalinar and even warned the coalition about early arrival of the Everstorm before the battle of the Thaylen Field. Only somewhere in between OB and RoW did Shins become hostile and all contact was broken, which suggests that's when the Unmade arrived.

RoW ch 111:

Quote

“My people,” Szeth shouted, “were not going to return your weapons to you. We kept your secrets, but you lie if you say my father gave you that Blade!”

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think so because Noturo had Ishar's Honorblade and Ishar said he killed him, which I think was the truth. 

Entirely valid. I have been leaning towards Ishar is as unreliable as Shallan (except in that moment of lucidity) but that does make more sense if true..especially considering where it seems like KoWT is heading.

17 hours ago, slavagh said:

Can I have a link? I would like to read it.

Turns out, I wrote it is Craziest Theories with every intention of fleshing it out myself, but I ADHD'd on that and never did.

Here's the burst of inspiration post I made a while back. It doesn't say much that you haven't said though. 

[slavagh he/him]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Did they know the truth about Taln? I don't know, there is no mention of it on Coppermind. He is a deity, just like all Heralds are, Stone Shamans revere and respect them, but they have no interest in taking care of "children of god." I don't see much reason for them to take Taln with them - he's the son of god, he's way above them, he doesn't need them. But they have a duty to care for Honorblades, to the point that they are unwilling to return them to Heralds, even if they were to ask for their baldes. Honorblades are more important to them then Herald's wellbeing.

As for the Unmade, it's unlikely. In WoK we have Rysn's PoV in Shinovar and everything seems fine there. In OB Shins sent letters to Dalinar and even warned the coalition about early arrival of the Everstorm before the battle of the Thaylen Field. Only somewhere in between OB and RoW did Shins become hostile and all contact was broken, which suggests that's when the Unmade arrived.

RoW ch 111:

Quote

“My people,” Szeth shouted, “were not going to return your weapons to you. We kept your secrets, but you lie if you say my father gave you that Blade!”

I assume they know based on this quote you mentioned. "We kept your secret" part. It will be funny if they are as clueless as Gavilar with all the evidence they have.

 

6 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Turns out, I wrote it is Craziest Theories with every intention of fleshing it out myself, but I ADHD'd on that and never did.

Here's the burst of inspiration post I made a while back. It doesn't say much that you haven't said though. 

Quote

Then she gave him the replacement blade and she went into hiding..because of the insanity they all have and she's even more afraid of going back to Braize because she was just there..and she's been hiding somewhere with Taln's blade ever since (or is trying to make a deal with it or something like that).

I thought that she was on a cool mission after returning. But I really like the idea that she is afraid and hiding. This is much more likely. 

[Isilel]

On 7/18/2024 at 10:48 PM, alder24 said:

I think Taln's blade was snatched by Shins.

 

On 7/19/2024 at 12:00 AM, slavagh said:

I believe that the blade was unbonded when he arrived.

 

IMHO, if it had been possible to separate a Herald, who upheld the Oathpact, from their honorblade, then surely the Fused would have done so long since. Yet, not even when the Heralds were captured and tortured on Braize did this happen. 

So, whoever took it likely didn't want Taln to get recognised in his addled condition, or just didn't think it through. I fully expect that once his sanity is somewhat restored, he will just summon the blade, if he needs it. 

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

IMHO, if it had been possible to separate a Herald, who upheld the Oathpact, from their honorblade, then surely the Fused would have done so long since. Yet, not even when the Heralds were captured and tortured on Braize did this happen. 

It's possible, just use Bondsmith powers (so Neturo might be the one who did it after all). Honorblades aren't directly related to the Oathpact.

Spoiler

Questioner

When the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, why did they believe they needed to leave their Honorblades behind as they disbanded? Did they know what would happen to their blades after they left them?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a couple things going on here. If you've read Way of Kings Prime, there is built, originally into the Honorblades, the ability to find other Honorblades by using them. This has not been canonized into the cosmere as it exists yet, but it is still a power that's in the back of my mind, it is most likely something you can access with the Honorblades: let you find the others. This is calling back to the old Fred Saberhagen Swords books, which were part of the inspiration for these. So one reason they would leave them behind, the lesser reason, is: they're supposed to go split up, and they don't want to see each other. They want to leave them behind, because it's like: "The others might be able to find me. We're going our separate ways. We are done."

But the greater reason, the canon reason, that you can cite is that idea of: "I am walking away from being a Herald. This was the gift I was given, and a representation of that gift I was given, that represents me standing up for humankind. And I am no longer willing to do that, so I have to give this thing up." And they all knew it. They didn't have to be told it, because they knew what they were doing meant they didn't deserve those anymore. Not in a magical sense, but in a sort of philosophical and moral sense.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

[slavagh he/him]

40 minutes ago, Isilel said:

IMHO, if it had been possible to separate a Herald, who upheld the Oathpact, from their honorblade, then surely the Fused would have done so long since. Yet, not even when the Heralds were captured and tortured on Braize did this happen. 

So, whoever took it likely didn't want Taln to get recognised in his addled condition, or just didn't think it through. I fully expect that once his sanity is somewhat restored, he will just summon the blade, if he needs it. 

My whole point is that he unbonded the blade willingly to give it to Chana. 
Your argument is valid. Honorblade doesn't dismiss automatically when it falls from the grip. It can still be bonded to Taln. It sounds like a pretty cool moment if Taln just summons his blade back after regaining sanity.

[+Child of Hodor]

I think Taln has the honorblade. Wit got him to dismiss it and gave him a different one. Wit knows that people would try to steal the blade and not wanting the honorblade to be stolen he gave Taln a shardblade and somehow coaxed Taln into dismissing his honorblade. 

It's also the most Brandon thing to do. Who stole the honorblade? No one. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

7 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think Taln has the honorblade. Wit got him to dismiss it and gave him a different one. Wit knows that people would try to steal the blade and not wanting the honorblade to be stolen he gave Taln a shardblade and somehow coaxed Taln into dismissing his honorblade. 

It's also the most Brandon thing to do. Who stole the honorblade? No one. 

a completely valid theory. It would mean that Wit knows more about the Heralds sanity (and insanity) than he has let on though? Unless he had a way to block Taln from summoning his blade, he could have summoned it on instinct at any threatening point. That said, it still works.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

10 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think Taln has the honorblade. Wit got him to dismiss it and gave him a different one. Wit knows that people would try to steal the blade and not wanting the honorblade to be stolen he gave Taln a shardblade and somehow coaxed Taln into dismissing his honorblade. 

It's also the most Brandon thing to do. Who stole the honorblade? No one. 

I like this theory as it also seems very Brandon, to have us all spinning our wheels and honestly answer that Hoid didn't steal it etc in WoB... because Taln just dismissed it and Hoid gave him another blade to allay suspicion 

[Etedbert he/him]

Well now that GenCon started, we’ve found out that we’re getting a sort of answer to where Taln’s blade went!

https://www.polygon.com/24204670/brandon-sanderson-stormlight-roleplaying-game-narrative-preview
 

apparently, the hardcover pre-built adventure “Stonewalkers” is going to focused on the mystery of where the honorblade ended up.

 

Quote

“The adventure is answering that question,” Sanderson told Polygon. “What happened? Where did it go? What’s going on? And you get to be part of the story. We were looking for an adventure you could do that would intersect with the canon of the books in an interesting way, and allow you to fill in a hole yourself.”

This quote does make it sound like there won’t be a canon answer though, and that it will be left up to the GM to choose how it went missing. 
I’m gonna guess that the book will suggest a few options that a GM could go with, but provide some guidance on how to create unique paths as well.

so the answer to “where did Taln’s blade go?” Seems to be “whatever you think happened, happened.”

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Still hoping that we get a canon answer to this question

[Elder]

Quick question on the subject:  has Brandon said anything about where Honorblades go when they’re dismissed?

Living Shardblades: are Spren who exist (barely) in the Physical Realm, moving freely within a certain radius of their Shardbearers

Deadeye Shardblades: return to the Cognitive Realm as Deadeye Spren, where they shadow the movements of their Shard-bearers.

so do the Honor blades transform?  Do they go into one realm or another?

[slavagh he/him]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

Quick question on the subject:  has Brandon said anything about where Honorblades go when they’re dismissed?

Living Shardblades: are Spren who exist (barely) in the Physical Realm, moving freely within a certain radius of their Shardbearers

Deadeye Shardblades: return to the Cognitive Realm as Deadeye Spren, where they shadow the movements of their Shard-bearers.

so do the Honor blades transform?  Do they go into one realm or another?

I believe there is no definitive answer to that. I assume it is in the cognitive realm when dismissed because of the same 10-second rule as for the Deadeye Shardblades. It is curious what will happen when someone goes through the Oathgate with a bonded Honorblade. Maybe its cognitive representation is the same blade as in the Physical realm.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Elder said:

Quick question on the subject:  has Brandon said anything about where Honorblades go when they’re dismissed?

Living Shardblades: are Spren who exist (barely) in the Physical Realm, moving freely within a certain radius of their Shardbearers

Deadeye Shardblades: return to the Cognitive Realm as Deadeye Spren, where they shadow the movements of their Shard-bearers.

so do the Honor blades transform?  Do they go into one realm or another?

No info on that. There is only this WoB I can think of, Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Fluffy (paraphrased)

When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022)

But does this "do not manifest a spren in CR" means don't manifest a sapient entity in CR to talk to, or don't manifest anything, not even a mind in CR is hard to say.

[Ashbringer he/him]

On 8/3/2024 at 2:28 PM, Etedbert said:

This quote does make it sound like there won’t be a canon answer though, and that it will be left up to the GM to choose how it went missing. 
I’m gonna guess that the book will suggest a few options that a GM could go with, but provide some guidance on how to create unique paths as well.

so the answer to “where did Taln’s blade go?” Seems to be “whatever you think happened, happened.”

 

On 8/7/2024 at 9:04 AM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Still hoping that we get a canon answer to this question

I mean, it is a prebuilt adventure. My guess with these types of things is there will be a canon “answer”, that is essentially whatever would have happened had the Players not interfered in events. Or possibly, the Blade is already stolen when the Players arrive and they have to decide what to do about it.

Taln’s Honorblade is too powerful of an item to just disappear in the canon.