How exactly does stormlight healing work and what are it's limits?

[Nomad8]

So as far as I understand when one is using stormlight provided you have enough it can heal almost any wound or deformity. But we also learn that this is dependent on how one views oneself. But if those are true then what are the limits on this and does it have to be injuries and deformities?

So for example say I dyed my hair blue for many years until eventually I saw myself with blue hair. If I stopped dying my hair would it just turn all the new growth blue every time I used stormlight?

And then if that is true then how abstract can you get? For example, lets say I think I exercise a lot and am really strong but I view myself as being a bit stronger than I actually am would I gain that strength I think I have when I use stormlight?

Sorry if this is a dumb question or if it has already been answered. Thank you in advance to anyone who can answer this.

[Quantus he/him]

There are a few things at play. And it's worth noting that all of these are just based on the current In-World understanding of the powers, and we've been warned that what they cant be made to do will grow and develop as things progress into the space age.  

 

In general Spiritual* Healing uses an infusion of Investiture to restore the body to it's Spiritual Ideal form.  What constitutes the actual "Ideal" is subjective so it will is influenced by the subjects Cognitive aspect, their deep sense of Self ("Identity" is something specific and different).  At it's most extreme it can both cure or restore Old Scars and Injuries (if you've internalized them enough), it can change gender, it usually cant cure hereditary diseases.  The Source of the healing comes in different strengths and limitations depending on how deep into your spiritweb it's touching, with Allomantic Gold or Personal Radiant Healing being the strongest/Deepest, and things like Honorblades, Squires, fabrials, and Regrowth all falling somewhere below those.  Regrowth can be more complicated because it will loop in the perception of both the target and the caster.  Also, for all of these, the caster's perception can influence a lot so they can always add more limitations.  

All that being said, the Spiritual Idealize Self is something deeper than just Method Acting, and it's not just a chronological rewind, so it will only maintain, restore, and/or Modify your body to a form that Deep in your very core you believe is part of your Self.  In the case of the hair I personally doubt it because I suspect the repeated ritual of reapplying the Hair Die would be part of the internalize experience.  But a Tattoo is totally on the table to just become part of your Healed definition, as are piercings, etc.  Gender change is possible if the Healing is powerful enough.  I think the jury is out of whether a Singer could reclaim a Form without the associated Spren in their Gemheart, but it's an interesting question.  No idea if a full species shift is possible but entirely original and/or unnatural things like a third arm or angel wings shouldnt work even with some really deep madness-level mental gymnastics. 

It's worth noting that there's an entirely separate shapeshifting Ability in the cosmere that works on a similar Self-Image mechanic per WOB, one that the Returned get and WOB says Divine Locks or Pewter Mistings could potentially accomplish with training.  Returned can manipulate their self image a little more consciously (via trained mental gymnastics) to get some pretty massive physical changes but cannot use it to heal themselves, and WOB says Pewter Mistings can do similar via activating a Mind-Over-Matter state while they burn metal.  They can do unnatural hair colors body shapes and sizes, and in the case of Returned I suspect they can even tweak their cognitive and spiritual attributes.

*The only non-Spiritual Healing we have an example of is Bloodsealing ReSealing (which is one of the more cognitive Dor Magics from Sel which already break lots of rules).  It's more like magical physical manipulation where you have to know where every nerve and blood vessel needs to be, more like if Star Trek did all their medical care by rewriting your pattern definition inside the Transporter (Why dont they, actually?).  

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Quantus

[Cerulean He/him]

Stormlight healing works similarly to Regrowth as Treamayne and Quantus mentioned its the platonic ideal, how you see yourself in the spiritual and cognitive realm. i think if you were strong for a time and then lost that muscle, but still saw yourself as stronger than you are currently i can see that working. I would bet against thinking as yourself as stronger, because subconsciously you brain knows that you are not that strong, which is different than soulstamps. As quantus said, i dont think that hair would redye with spiritual healing because of the ritual of applying it. If the dye is permanent, then lost, i could see it redying as it regrows. if you store connection with a metalmind then connect yourself to a place/race with blue hair then i think spiritual healing would redye hair. I dont think this would apply to the strength thing or if you used an essence mark.

as an addition i think if you were delusional/ had mental challenges, then maybe seeing yourself as strong could work as your subconscious thinks it as well. 

plz upvote

[Elite01]

I dunno I could see the hair staying dyed. If your hair color fades unnaturally a little every day but you consider yourself to have the same color of hair and you used stormlight consistently I could see it happening. 

I think if Lopen can be missing an arm for a while and still consider himself to have two arms to have it heal then I think hair color is on the table. 

I agree its more than method acting. It has to be how you genuinely see yourself. 

[Nomad8]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

There are a few things at play. And it's worth noting that all of these are just based on the current In-World understanding of the powers, and we've been warned that what they cant be made to do will grow and develop as things progress into the space age.  

 

In general Spiritual* Healing uses an infusion of Investiture to restore the body to it's Spiritual Ideal form.  What constitutes the actual "Ideal" is subjective so it will is influenced by the subjects Cognitive aspect, their deep sense of Self ("Identity" is something specific and different).  At it's most extreme it can both cure or restore Old Scars and Injuries (if you've internalized them enough), it can change gender, it usually cant cure hereditary diseases.  The Source of the healing comes in different strengths and limitations depending on how deep into your , with Allomantic Gold or Personal Radiant Healing being the strongest/Deepest, and things like Honorblades, Squires, fabrials, and Regrowth all falling somewhere below those.  Regrowth can be more complicated because it will loop in the perception of both the target and the caster.  Also, for all of these, the caster's perception can influence a lot so they can always add more limitations.  

All that being said, the Spiritual Idealize Self is something deeper than just Method Acting, and it's not just a chronological rewind, so it will only maintain, restore, and/or Modify your body to a form that Deep in your very core you believe is part of your Self.  In the case of the hair I personally doubt it because I suspect the repeated ritual of reapplying the Hair Die would be part of the internalize experience.  But a Tattoo is totally on the table to just become part of your Healed definition, as are piercings, etc.  Gender change is possible if the Healing is powerful enough.  I think the jury is out of whether a Singer could reclaim a Form without the associated Spren in their Gemheart, but it's an interesting question.  No idea if a full species shift is possible but entirely original and/or unnatural things like a third arm or angel wings shouldnt work even with some really deep madness-level mental gymnastics. 

It's worth noting that there's an entirely separate shapeshifting Ability in the cosmere that works on a similar Self-Image mechanic per WOB, one that the Returned get and WOB says Divine Locks or Pewter Mistings could potentially accomplish with training.  Returned can manipulate their self image a little more consciously (via trained mental gymnastics) to get some pretty massive physical changes but cannot use it to heal themselves, and WOB says Pewter Mistings can do similar via activating a Mind-Over-Matter state while they burn metal.  They can do unnatural hair colors body shapes and sizes, and in the case of Returned I suspect they can even tweak their cognitive and spiritual attributes.

*The only non-Spiritual Healing we have an example of is Bloodsealing (which is one of the more cognitive Dor Magics from Sel which already break lots of rules).  It's more like magical physical manipulation where you have to know where every nerve and blood vessel needs to be, more like if Star Trek did all their medical care by rewriting your pattern definition inside the Transporter (Why dont they, actually?).  

 

Thank you that explains a lot.

But what about my second question about making yourself stronger because you simply view yourself as stronger than you actually are? (obviously this would be very rare and probably only have a slight impact even if it did work)

[Treamayne]

On 7/15/2024 at 11:32 AM, Quantus said:

The only non-Spiritual Healing we have an example of is Bloodsealing

I think you meant Resealing. Bloodsealing is very different. 

On 7/15/2024 at 10:53 AM, Nomad8 said:

So as far as I understand when one is using stormlight provided you have enough it can heal almost any wound or deformity. But we also learn that this is dependent on how one views oneself. But if those are true then what are the limits on this and does it have to be injuries and deformities?

A key thing to understanding all of this is the Platonic Ideal - The Theory of Forms (which is what much of this is based upon). Your Spiritweb - Spiritual Identity is the Platonic Ideal of You. When healing, the healing tries to align your Physical Self to that Platonic Ideal - as expressed through the lens of Cognitive Identity.

Examples:

• Lopen never saw himself as "disabled" - Stormlight healed his arm
• Rysn definitely saw herself as disabled, so eventhough the time-since-injury was much shorter, Stormlight and Regrowth did not heal her legs. 
• Kaladin saw himself as oppressed and dangerous, so Stormlight could not heal his brands until he came to terms with that portion of his past and self-image. 

To Quote Fuzz (Mistborn:Secret History spoilers P2:C1)

Spoiler

The floor is the Physical Realm, where that light pools. The sun is the Spiritual Realm, where it begins. This Realm, the Cognitive Realm, is the space between where that beam stretches.”

Spiritual Ideal > Cognitive Filter > Physical appearance/Effect.

If something is not a part of your Spiritual Ideal, then no amount of Cognitive "Perception" is going to make it a part of your "healing." So, it's doubtful that Blue Dyed hair can be "healed," but it might be possible that healing could remove the dye and restore normal hair color the same way that Kaladin's skin pushed the tattoo ink right out. . . Returned are a slightly different case due to being a form of Cognitive Shadow and also due to the nature of Endownment's Investiture. Another "exception" was also seen in Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, due to their specific situation (spoilers). 

Spoiler

Yumi's Spiritweb "attached" to Nikaro's body - overwrote his form completely and essentially "healed" his body so she looked like herself when she was in his body (but he looked like her in her body because his Spiritweb was not invested as hers was).

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Kurkistan

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

Brandon Sanderson

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Kurkistan

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Kurkistan

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

Brandon Sanderson

You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track.

Kurkistan

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

Kurkistan

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

Kurkistan

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

Kurkistan

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes yes exactly.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

<edited for length and relevance>

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this.

First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.)

The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well.

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true.

So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change.

This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be.

Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult.

Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.)

General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 20, 2015)

 

Hope that helps

Edited July 17, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

On 7/15/2024 at 5:32 PM, Quantus said:

No idea if a full species shift is possible

It's possible, but that requires very special circumstances:

Spoiler

learhpa

Given that Stormlight healing matches to mental self-image (as shown by both the Lopen and by the Reshi monarch), could a really powerful hypnotist change someone's self-image in a way that would affect Stormlight healing? Could a powerful hypnotist use Stormlight healing to change a human into a listener?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible...to an extent. There is a limit to this, but the limitation is the amount of Investiture you have and access to Stormlight—or you know, Voidlight—can evidence this. Transformations that are happening in the storm to the listener forms are involved in this. That could theoretically happen to a human as well. But you would basically—what most likely would happen is it would have to involve a specific set of circumstances and then entering the storm, and then exiting as a listener—that could happen. You guys ask some farfetched things—that one's not so farfetched. It does require some specificity, but it could happen.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Edited July 20, 2024 by alder24

[Quantus he/him]

On 7/15/2024 at 2:21 PM, Nomad8 said:

Thank you that explains a lot.

But what about my second question about making yourself stronger because you simply view yourself as stronger than you actually are? (obviously this would be very rare and probably only have a slight impact even if it did work)

That's actually a pretty complex example to tackle, but lets try.  Hair may not be on the table at all because it's technically dead and just hanging on you, and per WOB it will be treated like an object to a Shardblade (unless it's magical like the Royal Locks).

But if we set that possibility aside, there are still predictable limits to what Healing can and Cant fix.  Spiritual Healing cannot Fix Age, so it couldnt stop your hair from turning grey and/or falling out no matter what your self image is because the progression of Age is itself part of the Ideal (and an objective Connection per WOB and the whole snap-back mechanic).  It could never regenerate Piercings, etc no matter how important to your self-identity they are, even invested Spikes that directly wire into your spiritweb.  But it can restore Scars and it can restore Tattoos even though the inks were originally foreign.  

I personally think that it would be very difficult and maybe impossible to make Blue Hair Dye heal itself as part of your Platonic Self because it's not permanent and you have to ritually reapply it, which keeps it cognitively anchored as something separate.  Tattoos are different in that they are a permanent color change to the skin (and technically a scar) with no upkeep.  It would heal the already dyed parts like a Tattoo (If hair heals at all), and if the hair root growth color had been permanently changed with magic or science it would/could heal to the new color.  But I think a hair dye that needs to be reapplied would land on the external (Piercing style) side of the line.  And along the same mechanics as the Gender Change extreme case, I think you might be able to change your natural hair color and overall racial traits to another one that already exists in your world.   So Red Hair and even the Horneater's ability to eat shells might happen but I doubt you could grant yourself Rock's more rare ability to see Spren, or becoming Natan would give you Blue Hair With Blue skin but not without, and it might not be possible at all on a planet with no blue-haired race.  

 

And for all of this, the real limit is that you are trying to enact the Change using the Spiritual/Platonic Ideal as a template, which naturally limits what you can modify. The shapeshifting of the Divine Breath or the Mind-Over-Matter state that A-Pewter can theoretically reach would have fewer (or at least different) limitations.  

[clowncarcrash]

It's interesting because I always just thought of the whole spirit web thing as a way of Brandon dealing with disability politics. But the stuff you guys are suggesting is kinda like rewriting identity like in Forgery.