Lurchers are better than Coinshots, change my mind (or agree)

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

Hi everybody! (or at least somebody) 

I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and finally gotten around to it. (I procrastinated posting on the Shard by looking at the Shard. Good job me.) As the title states, I believe that iron allomancy is a better power than steel allomancy, and want to try to convince people of that, or have other people convince me that I'm wrong. The two powers together are definitely more powerful, and mentioning power combos is ok, but compounding doesn't work as an argument, as the ability to push vs. pull metal is what I'm convinced of. Steel compounding is definitely stronger than iron compounding. 

My initial arguments: 

• Generally, an ordinary human has the ability to launch projectiles, and this is augmented further with firearms, but it is quite difficult to pull objects to yourself from far away. This means that, in general, iron allomancy opens up more possibilities than steel does. 
• Iron can be used offensively similar to steel, but also has other combat capabilities.
  • There is a fight scene in Mistborn 1 when Kelsier repeatedly pulls a metal paperweight toward himself, then steps aside, sending it past him and into his opponents. Although Kelsier has access to pewter, I think this trick could be replicated with normal reflexes and practice. 
  • A skilled Lurcher could potentially curve trajectories of flying metal objects, enabling attacks and attack redirection from more angles. This may require the use of zinc feruchemy or atium allomancy, however. 
  • Additionally, Lurchers can pull small metal objects behind their opponents toward themselves to attack, and could even set up a battlefield ahead of time or throw knives, then pull them back if a shot lines up. This would force the opponent to divide their attention between thrown and Pulled knives, and also enable indefinite attacks as long as steel lasts. 
  • Lurchers in battle are generally used to deflect projectiles, redirecting them to shields. Although Coinshots can also deflect attacks, they lack the capability to reuse enemy projectiles, which Lurchers can do. 
  • I've found, from throwing and catching small objects, that it is much easier to catch a fast moving object that you caused the trajectory of (such as a tennis ball bounced off a wall) than a slow moving object that someone else caused to move (such as that same tennis ball tossed to me by my dad). This implies that Lurching some projectiles (such as throwing knives and possibly arrows, but not bullets) might make them easier to catch. 
• Iron makes better use of resources and terrain than steel does. 
  • Objects to push or pull from are required for mobility for both, but steel lacks the ability to retrieve anchors, and thus would run out of coins to jump from. Although a Lurcher would require a surface to hook a portable anchor to, and would need to propel it to the destination, they could then retrieve it, allowing it to be reused and thus more elaborate, such as a clamp with an internal mechanism that locks when Pulled on, preventing it from coming free. A similar principle applies to weaponry. (For example, Wax lost his metal ball things pretty fast.) 
  • Coinshots are unable to scale isolated metal structures, and require several anchors to balance. Lurchers lack this problem, but do require an anchor to be where they're going, rather than where they start. 
• Iron is more convenient for every day life. Being able to grab things from far away is such a useful power if you don't want to get up or you have your hands full. 
• Iron is easier to come by. It is easier to manufacture and meet purity standards because it is a pure element (steel used to be very hard to make), it is softer and thus can be turned to shavings more easily (maybe even by using a file on a random object), and it is cheaper than steel. It does rust though, so it should be kept in oil or alcohol. 

That's all the reasons I have off the top of my head. Thanks for reading. Feel free to either agree or disagree, and to try to change my mind, or change the minds of those who are trying to change mine. I'll read the responses and write rebuttals to them, unless this thread blows up, in which case I'll try but probably not finish. 

[LightRinger he/him]

Love this thread man! Some notes and ideas, plus counterarguments cause it's fun. 

I’ve always thought a Lurcher with a bladed weapon made mostly from aluminum would be super powerful, like a sword where the tip and handle are steel. (Or similar to Captain America’s shield, but with a 100% guarantee to come back) They’d be able to throw the weapon through/behind the person, then Pull it back through for extra damage. 

On a front with no downside, Coinshots are able to Push allies out of danger or at enemies; Lurchers can bring teammates closer, or even launch them ahead. 

Now, Coinshots have less situational restraints when it comes to "flight", so to speak. They can bring their anchors with them, and place them at their convenience. The ground is typically always there, and able to act as a secondary and greater anchor, so Coinshots never have to worry about something supporting them. Lurchers, however, require high or distanced anchors, as well as the continual uncertainty that a lamppost or something may not hold them. If a Lurcher puts too much faith in a structure, they risk a lot of property damage. Sure, it's not the worst downside, but they also won't be able to move as they wish. 

53 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

Coinshots are unable to scale isolated metal structures, and require several anchors to balance. Lurchers lack this problem, but do require an anchor to be where they're going, rather than where they start. 

This relates to what I said above, but I've also wondered for a long time how uncomfortable it would be to drag alongside a building before arriving at the top. Maybe they treat it as a super powerful belay system, and run up instead. 

Lurchers have the convenience of being able to Pull on anchors to slow them down, whereas if a Coinshot drops an anchor incorrectly, especially in a flat area, it will slide out at an angle. Anyone who's played with magnets, sat one on a table, flipped the other one around, and tried to push them together knows what I'm talking about. This can be a major hazard to the Coinshot.

Last of all, Lurchers have the potential for spur of the moment Hemalurgy. Imagine, you have a Tineye held in front of you. With enough practice Pulling off-center of the body, (@Dragonheir, help me out with the real term), you could spike yourself quite easily and safely. Pull the spike through them into you.

That's all I could think of off the top of my head. 

Edited June 6, 2024 by LightRinger
Clarity

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

I can't vote on a false dichotomy in good conscience...

They're both absurdly powerful in their own right, and better together than apart.

That said, steel can repel bullets from unseen enemies spherically and reliably when burned continuously. Iron can only deflect bullets from forward and backward facing enemies with loose statistical probability if one commits to wearing tens of pounds of armor at all times. (Armor that will VERY rapidly become exhausted and unreliable after even a single impact!!!)

Losing control when steel pushing and being rocketed haphazardly in a random direction is rarely fatal so long as one has at least a single penny in their pocket. Losing control when iron pulling is basically always fatal via gaping open chest wound...

Killing a person covertly with steel pushing is far easier and less revealing of the exact attack vector than iron pulling, and requires far less preparation and coordination. (Iron would require a weapon of attack to be meticulously and perfectly placed in advance, and would immediately reveal the attackers location; steel could kill with a paperclip who's direction of attack would only be loosely discernable in the heat of the moment.

Steel and iron are both stupidly cheap and easy to produce in massive volume.

Steel allows one to fly. Iron does not.

[Trusk'our he/him]

These are some great insights, thank you for putting together this post!

I actually still think steel is still better more more traditional "adventuring" scenarios though; iron may be able to scale buildings more effectively, but steel can pretty much always break your fall if you've got a metal doohicky to drop and Push off of. Iron can't do that unless something's already in place above you to act as an anchor, making it more circumstantial. 

Steel can also launch you about more easily, since your anchors are typically either underneath or behind you, while iron can only Pull you upwards if there's a tall building. Not a big problem in the city, but go to a small town or the wilderness and a Coinshot can still Steeljump by dropping clips while a Lurcher is resigned to walk.

Good marks on iron's ability to attack from behind someone. I think that can be pretty powerful, but a Coinshot can basically turn any pocket change into a bullet, and even if that's coming from up front it's going to be nearly as useful if not more so in a lot of situations since you don't have to start your attack by throwing your metal with the hope of it getting behind your opponent. So I think that this tactic, while useful, ultimately is just another way that a Metalborn could use their varying powers in different ways, more useful in some cases, less useful in others.

Also, since a Coinshot can move high-velocity projectiles away from them while a Lucher must curve it towards themselves, a Coinshot has an advantage at, well, not dying due to a mistake at using their powers. I feel that this is rather important. 

All in all, Lurchers are neat and their powers probably deserve more respect than they're typically given, but a Coinshot is generally better equipped for more scenarios. 

[therunner he/him]

10 hours ago, Dragonheir said:

My initial arguments: 

• Generally, an ordinary human has the ability to launch projectiles, and this is augmented further with firearms, but it is quite difficult to pull objects to yourself from far away. This means that, in general, iron allomancy opens up more possibilities than steel does. 

No notes, Iron allomancy is more useful from utility perspective, and the offensive aspect of Steel is lessened from Era 2 onwards (while never fully vanishing).

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Iron can be used offensively similar to steel, but also has other combat capabilities.

Not really, Iron has very little offensive usage, not unless you have some way to reliably get metal right behind your opponent.

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There is a fight scene in Mistborn 1 when Kelsier repeatedly pulls a metal paperweight toward himself, then steps aside, sending it past him and into his opponents. Although Kelsier has access to pewter, I think this trick could be replicated with normal reflexes and practice. 

I'd say without Pewter it would be next to impossible. Not because dodging something you pulled towards yourself requires superhuman reflexes, but because doing that and using it to strike someone and dodging those opponents would require superhuman assistance.

You need to perfectly coordinate it, or you don't really do anything.

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A skilled Lurcher could potentially curve trajectories of flying metal objects, enabling attacks and attack redirection from more angles. This may require the use of zinc feruchemy or atium allomancy, however. 

So can Coinshot, they just curve the other way.

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Additionally, Lurchers can pull small metal objects behind their opponents toward themselves to attack, and could even set up a battlefield ahead of time or throw knives, then pull them back if a shot lines up. This would force the opponent to divide their attention between thrown and Pulled knives, and also enable indefinite attacks as long as steel lasts. 

As you say, this is heavily reliant on environmental setup, which makes Iron better when Allomancer has control of battlefield before hand (i.e. either ambush, or defensive fight in previously prepared location).
In comparison, Coinshot does not rely on environment nearly as much, they just have to carry metal on their person.

So defensive fight, yes Iron would be better. But Steel would be better everywhere else, and is more versatile to boot.

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Lurchers in battle are generally used to deflect projectiles, redirecting them to shields. Although Coinshots can also deflect attacks, they lack the capability to reuse enemy projectiles, which Lurchers can do. 

This tactic will be less useful as stronger and larger caliber become available, because Lurcher will get hit and any material can take only so much damage before breaking, especially since the material must be non-metallic (making it rather weak against guns).
Re-use is also possible liability, as enemy Coinshot can still push on those projectiles lodged in shield.

Coinshot can deflect so long as they have metal, and are not reliant on wooden (or possibly some aluminum alloy) shield.

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Objects to push or pull from are required for mobility for both, but steel lacks the ability to retrieve anchors, and thus would run out of coins to jump from. Although a Lurcher would require a surface to hook a portable anchor to, and would need to propel it to the destination, they could then retrieve it, allowing it to be reused and thus more elaborate, such as a clamp with an internal mechanism that locks when Pulled on, preventing it from coming free. A similar principle applies to weaponry. (For example, Wax lost his metal ball things pretty fast.) 

Coinshots are unable to scale isolated metal structures, and require several anchors to balance. Lurchers lack this problem, but do require an anchor to be where they're going, rather than where they start. 

I would say they have different strength and weaknesses in mobility, rather that one is strictly better.

Steel is more flexible, you always have ground, and as long as you have some coins, you can jump.
Iron requires metal to be near your goal (and in your range, which is few dozen meters at most), or you have to carry effectively a grapple gun (which, when you have it, you don't need Iron anyway).

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Iron is more convenient for every day life. Being able to grab things from far away is such a useful power if you don't want to get up or you have your hands full. 

Yep, no notes.

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Iron is easier to come by. It is easier to manufacture and meet purity standards because it is a pure element (steel used to be very hard to make), it is softer and thus can be turned to shavings more easily (maybe even by using a file on a random object), and it is cheaper than steel. It does rust though, so it should be kept in oil or alcohol. 

Depends on how exacting allomantic alloys must be. Impurities are in most Iron ore, which could cause issues.
I'd say they are both equally hard to come by.

 

So all in all, I'd say Iron has more out of combat utility, but is severely behind Steel in combat (with exception of ambush/home field fight), and bit behind Steel in mobility. My opinion of course.

Edited June 6, 2024 by therunner

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

Thanks for the responses everyone! There’ve been some really great points made so far, on both sides of the debate. I’ll go through the responses and respond to points that I have something to add to. If I don’t respond to a point you made, it means I agree and don’t have anything to say about it, not that I’m making a straw man argument. 

10 hours ago, LightRinger said:

If a Lurcher puts too much faith in a structure, they risk a lot of property damage.

The same does apply to Coinshots, although not if they’re using coins. I think Wax jumped off a car one time and it broke. 

10 hours ago, LightRinger said:

This relates to what I said above, but I've also wondered for a long time how uncomfortable it would be to drag alongside a building before arriving at the top. Maybe they treat it as a super powerful belay system, and run up instead. 

Lurchers have the convenience of being able to Pull on anchors to slow them down, whereas if a Coinshot drops an anchor incorrectly, especially in a flat area, it will slide out at an angle. Anyone who's played with magnets, sat one on a table, flipped the other one around, and tried to push them together knows what I'm talking about. This can be a major hazard to the Coinshot.

Both these points elaborate quite well on some of my thoughts. Coinshots can push on anchors in the other direction to slow down, which would be the environment that the Lurcher would need to fly at all. Also, a Lurcher could pull an anchor out from under the Coinshot, which could result in a painful fall, whereas a Lurcher’s anchors are generally better anchored (but also significantly more scarce). 

10 hours ago, LightRinger said:

Last of all, Lurchers have the potential for spur of the moment Hemalurgy. Imagine, you have a Tineye held in front of you. With enough practice Pulling off-center of the body, (@Dragonheir, help me out with the real term), you could spike yourself quite easily and safely. Pull the spike through them into you.

I don’t think we have a term for off center pulls, but you have just given me an idea. Let’s see if the cosmere hunger games people will let me get a steel spike. 

9 hours ago, hwiles said:

I can't vote on a false dichotomy in good conscience...

They're both absurdly powerful in their own right, and better together than apart.

I completely agree, and I did note the first part in my opening paragraph, but looking back at it, it’s kinda lost in some other thoughts. The horseshoe trick, every fight scene with a Mistborn, these two powers, out of every push-pull group, complement each other the most. 

9 hours ago, hwiles said:

That said, steel can repel bullets from unseen enemies spherically and reliably when burned continuously. Iron can only deflect bullets from forward and backward facing enemies with loose statistical probability if one commits to wearing tens of pounds of armor at all times. (Armor that will VERY rapidly become exhausted and unreliable after even a single impact!!!)

Losing control when steel pushing and being rocketed haphazardly in a random direction is rarely fatal so long as one has at least a single penny in their pocket. Losing control when iron pulling is basically always fatal via gaping open chest wound...

Good point. I didn’t really consider how quickly shields or armor break when shot repeatedly. Maybe unsealed goldminds would help? Or something like a tank that the Lurcher would stay inside? I guess there’s a reason that we haven’t seen any Lurchers in era 2 combat, especially with nicrosil allomancy being a thing. 

9 hours ago, hwiles said:

Killing a person covertly with steel pushing is far easier and less revealing of the exact attack vector than iron pulling, and requires far less preparation and coordination. (Iron would require a weapon of attack to be meticulously and perfectly placed in advance, and would immediately reveal the attackers location; steel could kill with a paperclip who's direction of attack would only be loosely discernable in the heat of the moment.

If steel can kill with a paperclip, iron can as well, the paperclip merely has to be on the other side of the target. I don’t think either can perform an assassination like this, actually. You’d need a sharper object, as the force will be equaled by the force applied to the assassin. You’d need a much sharper object. If a guard of the target has a knife, either misting could frame them by moving it, they’d just need to be on opposite sides. I think a Lurcher would be suspected less in this case, but both ways are viable. 

9 hours ago, hwiles said:

Steel and iron are both stupidly cheap and easy to produce in massive volume.

Steel allows one to fly. Iron does not.

Both are true. I’d been researching the Industrial Revolution for school, so I may have been forgetting that steel production has improved a whole lot since then. (Did you know that Charles Bessemer didn’t invent the Bessemer Process, he just brought it the Europe and named it after himself?) 

Flight wise, in a random field, steel definitely works better, but in a city they’re more equal, and climbing a tall metal tower in the middle of nowhere is easier for iron than steel. (Not a lot of tall metal towers in the middle of nowhere that need climbing, though) 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I actually still think steel is still better more more traditional "adventuring" scenarios though; iron may be able to scale buildings more effectively, but steel can pretty much always break your fall if you've got a metal doohicky to drop and Push off of. Iron can't do that unless something's already in place above you to act as an anchor, making it more circumstantial. 

Steel can also launch you about more easily, since your anchors are typically either underneath or behind you, while iron can only Pull you upwards if there's a tall building. Not a big problem in the city, but go to a small town or the wilderness and a Coinshot can still Steeljump by dropping clips while a Lurcher is resigned to walk.

As stated above, I agree with this point. Steel is much better in a field, iron is equal or better in an environment such as a city with metal everywhere. (Spider-Man has a similar problem in his first movie, I believe) 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

have to start your attack by throwing your metal with the hope of it getting behind your opponent. So I think that this tactic, while useful, ultimately is just another way that a Metalborn could use their varying powers in different ways, more useful in some cases, less useful in others.

My idea there was to have a Lurcher who can use throwing knives. They’d start by attacking conventionally, but as the battle went on there would be more knives laying around that the opponent would have to avoid. If they ran out of knives to throw, they could pull some back, lightly, then catch and rethrow them. 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, since a Coinshot can move high-velocity projectiles away from them while a Lucher must curve it towards themselves, a Coinshot has an advantage at, well, not dying due to a mistake at using their powers. I feel that this is rather important. 

I agree, this is a good point. I’d forgotten how much damage a bullet can do to shields or armor (I blame Marvel movies), and thus kinda assumed that all the bullets could be blocked. I’d attempted to articulate an idea in which a Lurcher pulls lightly on a bullet head for someone else, pivoting it around themself due to it maintaining momentum, then stopping, which would send the bullet back at the attacker, although likely slower. 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

All in all, Lurchers are neat and their powers probably deserve more respect than they're typically given, but a Coinshot is generally better equipped for more scenarios. 

That’s a valid opinion. I’m glad I helped with the first part, and I respect the second part, even if I disagree. 
 

I’m aware that one more person has responded, but I’m out of time to post and will thus respond to you later,  @therunner. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

36 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

I think Wax jumped off a car one time and it broke. 

Are we talking about the car that wax increased his weight tenfold and smashed to a halt to save its occupants from falling into the river?

11 hours ago, LightRinger said:

Lurchers have the convenience of being able to Pull on anchors to slow them down, whereas if a Coinshot drops an anchor incorrectly, especially in a flat area, it will slide out at an angle. Anyone who's played with magnets, sat one on a table, flipped the other one around, and tried to push them together knows what I'm talking about. This can be a major hazard to the Coinshot.

I don't know that this is all that big of an issue; don't Kelsier, Vin, and Wax all drop coins to slow their fall from great heights?

Meanwhile, if a Lurcher were to fall off a bridge, they'd only be able to save themselves from the fall if there was metal already on or in the bridge.

11 hours ago, LightRinger said:

Last of all, Lurchers have the potential for spur of the moment Hemalurgy. Imagine, you have a Tineye held in front of you. With enough practice Pulling off-center of the body, (@Dragonheir, help me out with the real term), you could spike yourself quite easily and safely. Pull the spike through them into you. 

Hemalurgy is extremely precise with its Bindpoints; you might be able to Pull (or Push) a metal into your target with Allomancy in the attempt to rip off a random chunk of Spiritweb, but getting anything specific is unlikely. 

I really, really think it would be an unwise idea to Pull said spike into yourself afterwards, as its charge is almost certainly not carrying something useful, and you almost certainly won't get it into the correlating Bindpoint on your own body. You might be able to Pull this off with the aid of Atium, but not as a normal Lurcher. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

So all in all, I'd say Iron has more out of combat utility, but is severely behind Steel in combat (with exception of ambush/home field fight), and bit behind Steel in mobility. My opinion of course.

Agreed. Iron has some nice tricks to pull (literally), but steel has overall more versatility and practical use in adventurous situations. 

36 minutes ago, Dragonheir said:

Flight wise, in a random field, steel definitely works better, but in a city they’re more equal, and climbing a tall metal tower in the middle of nowhere is easier for iron than steel. (Not a lot of tall metal towers in the middle of nowhere that need climbing, though) 

As stated above, I agree with this point. Steel is much better in a field, iron is equal or better in an environment such as a city with metal everywhere. (Spider-Man has a similar problem in his first movie, I believe) 

I don't know that they're necessarily equal in flight power, even in the city. Wax comments in AoL how Coinshots tend to be graceful in flight while Lurchers are clunky in comparison. Plus, you must still be entirely reliant on anchors already being in place for you at the destination you wish to Pull to, but Coinshot we've seen don't have any problems with mobility. 

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My idea there was to have a Lurcher who can use throwing knives. They’d start by attacking conventionally, but as the battle went on there would be more knives laying around that the opponent would have to avoid. If they ran out of knives to throw, they could pull some back, lightly, then catch and rethrow them. 

I mean, I think that could work, but a gun seems a lot more effective in most situations. . . Though, I suppose a Coinshot would probably get more mileage out of firearms too, since they generally generate more force upfront than Pushing on the metal.

That said, a Coinshot can Push on non-aluminum bullets to give them extra force while a Lurcher cannot. 

All in all, I maintain my stance on Coinshot vs Lurcher shenanigans, though I respect other's opinions on the topic. 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

To the people who argue that it’s hard to get an object behind an opponent to pull, humans have the ability to throw things. Or alternatively, a lurcher could use a gun. 
but in general, I think iron has more practical uses than steel. It might not be great for fighting, due to lack of defensive capacity, although if there were two lurchers, they could defend each other by pulling projectiles going towards the other person out of the way.  
I feel like comparing iron and steel is like comparing a knife and a gun. A guns superior in a fight, but I’d rather have a knife because (and I don’t know about you) I’ve never been in a shootout). I can use a knife for way more things that actually matter. 

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

If you were in the roughs and wanted to Lurch up a building, a gun with bullets that deploy a charge to force a metal bit into the rock would be a necessity. Obviously, it's easier to just steelpush.

[Isilel]

Honestly, steel is just much better for moving around - easier, safer and usable anywhere as long as a Coinshot has enough metal bits. This is the main non-combat application for steel allomancy and can be helpful in a wide variety of contexts.

I do wonder though, if it also couldn't be used instead of a hammer in carpentry, for instance, or to push an awl in leatherwork. 

Lurchers are really disadvantaged because not only do they need to have metal in environment to move via allomancy, it must be sturdy enough to bear their weight. And there is little that  they can do to save themselves if they miscalculate.

Iron allomancy would be very helpful in high-rise or skyscraper construction, though, since there'd be plenty of strong metal frames there. And an ability to pull tools towards oneself is convenient, as seen with Ranette.

But what I'd really love to see would be Lurchers flying around on hang-gliders,  powering propellers with their allomancy. It should be feasible - and even more so once weight medallions become commonplace.

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

I'd say without Pewter it would be next to impossible. Not because dodging something you pulled towards yourself requires superhuman reflexes, but because doing that and using it to strike someone and dodging those opponents would require superhuman assistance.

You need to perfectly coordinate it, or you don't really do anything.

Yeah, I agree that I underestimated how difficult that would be to do. Perhaps an iron-zinc twinborn could do it, but otherwise it’s pretty much impossible in era 2. 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Are we talking about the car that wax increased his weight tenfold and smashed to a halt to save its occupants from falling into the river?

Maybe? It’s been a bit since I reread era 2. That would have been intentional then.

5 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

if there were two lurchers, they could defend each other by pulling projectiles going towards the other person out of the way.  

Good idea. A Lurcher and a Coinshot could work as well. 

5 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

I feel like comparing iron and steel is like comparing a knife and a gun. A guns superior in a fight, but I’d rather have a knife because (and I don’t know about you) I’ve never been in a shootout). I can use a knife for way more things that actually matter. 

I like this metaphor. It makes sense. That being said, I’ve rushed someone with a water gun before with a wet sponge, and soaked them without being hit, so a knife is a little more useful than people realize. 

4 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

If you were in the roughs and wanted to Lurch up a building, a gun with bullets that deploy a charge to force a metal bit into the rock would be a necessity.

That’s a good idea. If you have something like a stone wall, with crenellations, you could throw or slingshot a coin over it and then rappel up. 

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

But what I'd really love to see would be Lurchers flying around on hang-gliders,  powering propellers with their allomancy. It should be feasible - and even more so once weight medallions become commonplace.

Yeah, me too. I also came up with the idea for a Lurcher martial art where the practitioners pull themselves towards their opponents and their opponents towards themselves using locking cuffs they can lock onto them. Maybe even a midair boxing match with a metal framework around it, allowing contestants to push or pull around, and if they leave the frame they lose. 

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

But what I'd really love to see would be Lurchers flying around on hang-gliders,  powering propellers with their allomancy. It should be feasible - and even more so once weight medallions become commonplace.

I'm not sure you would want to store much weight while piloting an Hang Glider. The Pilot's weight and center of gravity is basically how you manuever the craft (not to mention providing enough ballast to not hit the mountain side with light winds - at least the version I had my test light on in CA in 1996 - moving the bar control is a combination of changing the aerodynamics and shifting the pilot's center of gravity to execute the turn/spiral/etc.). 

From the Other Wiki

Spoiler

Triangle control frame

In most hang gliders, the pilot is ensconced in a harness suspended from the airframe, and exercises control by shifting body weight in opposition to a stationary control frame, also known as a triangle control frame, or an A-frame. 

 

[Isilel]

@Treamayne, yea, but wouldn't the option to change weight as situation requires provide additional control opportunities? Or for instance, wouldn't flying at reduced weight allow for use of smaller, less cumbersome gliders? Not to mention that Iron allomancy is wonderfully suited to operating flaps, so maybe something like that could be included in the design as an  additional steering element. Allomantically powered propeller would also  reduce reliance on air currents, as well as allow for unrestricted lift-off. I just think that motorless flight is really cool and Scadrial magic would lend itself to making it more accessible. They could probably replace a natural Lurcher with a  cleverly designed charged harmonium contraption, too. 

Another thought I had is that, for instance, balloons should be really easy and convenient to operate by a combination of a Lurcher/Coinshot and a Skimmer. One operates the propeller via allomancy and provides lateral movement, the other controls altitude by storing and tapping weight. No need for ballast, fuel, gas reserves beyond what is needed for slow replenishment, etc. 

Speaking of which - there must be a way to use harmonium-mediated Iron and Steel allomancy directionally, right? Otherwise it couldn't really be said that normals can get access to it mechanically. So, maybe an "allomantic grenade" encased in aluminium, with a very narrow aperture would allow for it? You'd also need a F-Tin medallion with stored Steelsight to see what you are doing, of course. Since it seems that something like the Bands-granted allomancy will remain unique for the foreseeable future, this could be a plausible walk-around with clear limits. 

Edited June 7, 2024 by Isilel

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

but wouldn't the option to change weight as situation requires provide additional control opportunities? Or for instance, wouldn't flying at reduced weight allow for use of smaller, less cumbersome gliders?

Possibly, but please note that my comments above were less about theorizing for the intended topic, and more about explaining to the other Sharders reading this thread who may not know much about paragliding, hang gliding and other aerial sports.

In the theory category though, what would be truely epic is a Skimmer that learns to selectively remove weight (such as, while under canopy, reducing weight on the left only to create a right bank for turning with no movement required at all). Clever manipulation of CG (center of gravity) could have a ton of implication for any use of metallic arts in aviation. 

[NameIess]

Interesting thread, it didn’t change my mind about coinshots being better than lurchers in combat, but I do see your point that if you don’t want to go fly around a city or get into gunfights, lurches are better for everyday life.

[Isilel]

Wow, look what I found on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mistborn/s/hK4gYIA8KI

Mind blown. A Lurcher could just grab a parachute or a paraglider and pull themselves along the train tracks! 

@Treamayne, it should definitely be doable to do this with the Mawlish weight-reducing contraptions. Affix a pair of them on both sides/wings of the aircraft and trigger accordingly! For a person, it may be possible with extensive mental training, but they'd have to be very careful, since then half of their body won't be automatically "compensated" to bear the increased weight of the other half. 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

5 hours ago, NameIess said:

Interesting thread, it didn’t change my mind about coinshots being better than lurchers in combat, but I do see your point that if you don’t want to go fly around a city or get into gunfights, lurches are better for everyday life.

This is a take that I can like.

Ranette, the luncher who hangs with smokers, appears to unambiguously be the best design engineer of era 2 by a country mile. Can anyone reproduce or mass produce her designs? No...it doesn't seem like it. So I assume her time to shine is fundamentally very limited. Still though. Lurchers are extremely powerful; there are a lot of objects smaller than a person that can be telekinetically manipulated, and pulling can be radically more efficient than shoving if you have a light and smooth enough touch.

Edited June 7, 2024 by hwiles