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Micro Hemalurgy


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I've come up with a couple ways in the past to make harvesting Investiture via Hemalurgy more viable, such as healing donors via F-gold or giving a spiked Metalborn their power back with that very spike. So here's another thought; what if you deliberately only take a fraction of the donor's Investiture that you could take?

The Set scientists seemed to be stripping their victims of all their Innate Investiture, leaving them worse off than a Drab. This, as if it really needs saying, is pretty awful, as it permanently marrs their Spiritwebs and significantly reduces their quality of life. 

However, in the Sunlit Man, Nomad talks to Auxiliary he speaks about the resiliency of the soul:

Quote

He brought out the drained sunheart again, turned it over in his fingers. "These people," he said, "can transfer Investiture to one another through touch. And their highly Invested souls become these power sources when bombarded long enough by the sun. I'm hoping that I can find a way to siphon a little of my soul into this drained sunheart, taking some of the scar tissue with it. Follow?"

Vaguely, yes. It will be like lancing a boil. 

"Yes, but not so gross."

Everything about mortals is gross. But siphoning off your soul. . . won't that, I don't know, hurt?

"Not if it's a very small amount," he said. "Plus, it will regrow, as will the scar. Human souls are resilient things, Aux. Like our bodies, they self-repair."

This line about self-repair is particularly interesting to me, as maybe it could mean that tiny, miniscule amounts of Investiture taken from a donor via Hemalurgy (maybe between 1-5% of their total Innate Investiture) could be healed naturally, as the Spiritweb is constantly changing a little bit.

Now, this line is also coming from a highly Invested Dawnsliver, so it's very possible that Nomad just means you can theoretically heal Spiritweb damage through Invested means, such as his own or something like F-gold.

In this case, I wonder if Micro-Hemalurgy would still potentially be useful, mostly by just skimming off such a small percentage of Investiture from each donor (after having them Blank their Identity) that it doesn't breech the threshold that would have a real impact on the donor's life.

This way you'd need to spike a lot more people to fully Invest that spike, but nobody would have permanent negative impacts to their health. Less convenient, but far more ethical. 

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2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I've come up with a couple ways in the past to make harvesting Investiture via Hemalurgy more viable, such as healing donors via F-gold or giving a spiked Metalborn their power back with that very spike. So here's another thought; what if you deliberately only take a fraction of the donor's Investiture that you could take?

The Set scientists seemed to be stripping their victims of all their Innate Investiture, leaving them worse off than a Drab. This, as if it really needs saying, is pretty awful, as it permanently marrs their Spiritwebs and significantly reduces their quality of life. 

However, in the Sunlit Man, Nomad talks to Auxiliary he speaks about the resiliency of the soul:

This line about self-repair is particularly interesting to me, as maybe it could mean that tiny, miniscule amounts of Investiture taken from a donor via Hemalurgy (maybe between 1-5% of their total Innate Investiture) could be healed naturally, as the Spiritweb is constantly changing a little bit.

Now, this line is also coming from a highly Invested Dawnsliver, so it's very possible that Nomad just means you can theoretically heal Spiritweb damage through Invested means, such as his own or something like F-gold.

In this case, I wonder if Micro-Hemalurgy would still potentially be useful, mostly by just skimming off such a small percentage of Investiture from each donor (after having them Blank their Identity) that it doesn't breech the threshold that would have a real impact on the donor's life.

This way you'd need to spike a lot more people to fully Invest that spike, but nobody would have permanent negative impacts to their health. Less convenient, but far more ethical. 

And just like that it seems you've just told us how to make Hemalurgy ethical on a mass scale.

Like blood donations but with your soul.

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18 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

And just like that it seems you've just told us how to make Hemalurgy ethical on a mass scale.

Like blood donations but with your soul.

Hopefully, it would turn out that way, yes.

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21 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I've come up with a couple ways in the past to make harvesting Investiture via Hemalurgy more viable, such as healing donors via F-gold or giving a spiked Metalborn their power back with that very spike. So here's another thought; what if you deliberately only take a fraction of the donor's Investiture that you could take?

The Set scientists seemed to be stripping their victims of all their Innate Investiture, leaving them worse off than a Drab. This, as if it really needs saying, is pretty awful, as it permanently marrs their Spiritwebs and significantly reduces their quality of life. 

However, in the Sunlit Man, Nomad talks to Auxiliary he speaks about the resiliency of the soul:

This line about self-repair is particularly interesting to me, as maybe it could mean that tiny, miniscule amounts of Investiture taken from a donor via Hemalurgy (maybe between 1-5% of their total Innate Investiture) could be healed naturally, as the Spiritweb is constantly changing a little bit.

Now, this line is also coming from a highly Invested Dawnsliver, so it's very possible that Nomad just means you can theoretically heal Spiritweb damage through Invested means, such as his own or something like F-gold.

In this case, I wonder if Micro-Hemalurgy would still potentially be useful, mostly by just skimming off such a small percentage of Investiture from each donor (after having them Blank their Identity) that it doesn't breech the threshold that would have a real impact on the donor's life.

This way you'd need to spike a lot more people to fully Invest that spike, but nobody would have permanent negative impacts to their health. Less convenient, but far more ethical. 

Lol. I think you just created state-mandated hemalurgic taxes you monster!

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2 hours ago, hwiles said:

Lol. I think you just created state-mandated hemalurgic taxes you monster!

Whaaaaaaaat, that was the furthest thing from my mind. Definitely 😅

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On 5/30/2024 at 4:35 AM, Trusk'our said:

Less convenient, but far more ethical. 

 

Why not wholly synthetic spikes? Grab whatever investiture is freely available, remove it's coding, imbue it into a corresponding metal spike and code it with Preservation's Rhythm and that of a  desired power. IIRC Moonlight even hinted at something like that when she grabbed the Set's scientists research. 

Navani's experiments (and those of whoever created Gavilar's anti-light, IMHO Ghostbloods) already demonstrated the feasibility of re-coding. Purified Dor also likely has it's rythms removed to make it  universally useable.  Now they just need to figure out how to permanently imbue metal with something that isn't Breaths. 

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1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Why not wholly synthetic spikes? Grab whatever investiture is freely available, remove it's coding, imbue it into a corresponding metal spike and code it with Preservation's Rhythm and that of a  desired power. IIRC Moonlight even hinted at something like that when she grabbed the Set's scientists research. 

Navani's experiments (and those of whoever created Gavilar's anti-light, IMHO Ghostbloods) already demonstrated the feasibility of re-coding. Purified Dor also likely has it's rythms removed to make it  universally useable.  Now they just need to figure out how to permanently imbue metal with something that isn't Breaths. 

Yeah, it's been proposed before, but it's a lot more advanced and we don't know for certain (though I highly suspect it is the case) whether Tones alone are enough to program Invested powers into Hemalurgic spikes or Metalminds. 

As for using Purified Dor to directly fuel the creation of Hemalurgic spikes or Unsealed Metalminds, I think it's probably more complicated. I think you could do it, and once you did it would prove superior to most other methods of power generation, but you'd have to learn how and what to Command free-floating Investiture with.

All in all, still a really good idea. I'd think the Micro-Hemalurgy would be expected to be seen in an era 3 or 4 setting (less complicated to figure out, but less powerful), with directly programmable Investiture being an era 5 deal.

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34 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I'd think the Micro-Hemalurgy would be expected to be seen in an era 3 or 4 setting (less complicated to figure out, but less powerful), with directly programmable Investiture being an era 5 deal.

 

It does seem a likely interim step, yes. Though they need to figure out how to make it programmable too, since at this point it both doesn't confer a usable power and it's investiture infusion is impermanent. Once they solve these problems, it will be a very small step to transfer the method to other investitures. 

But then, both the narrative and Sanderson in WoBs are  more disapproving towards hemalurgy than is entirely merited, IMHO. I guess, traditional hemalurgy, even if completely voluntary on the part of a dying donor, would be a kind of suicide, so that's why.

P.S. If they luck into discovering/somehow creating a Nicrosil Compounder, they could multiply a small seed amount of Breath, and use that to begin with, since it is already possible to imbue metal with it. Not quite as ethical as purified Dor, but would probably make proof of concept and earlier prototypes easier to create.

Edited by Isilel
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8 hours ago, Isilel said:

Navani's experiments (and those of whoever created Gavilar's anti-light, IMHO Ghostbloods) already demonstrated the feasibility of re-coding.

It cannot be Ghostbloods, since they are clearly the competing organization to Gavilar, and are trying to get access to that very kind of information (among other things).

Not to mention, they don't seem to possess that knowledge by Era 2, which is later on.

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

P.S. If they luck into discovering/somehow creating a Nicrosil Compounder, they could multiply a small seed amount of Breath, and use that to begin with, since it is already possible to imbue metal with it. Not quite as ethical as purified Dor, but would probably make proof of concept and earlier prototypes easier to create.

Nicrosil Compounder would likely not be able to create more Breath, as Breath is Investiture of Endowment, and Compounders get Preservations Investiture.

See this WoB (different idea, but similar issue of having wrong type of Investiture)

Quote

Djarskublar

So, say you have a gold/gold Twinborn and they worldhop to Roshar and they study the magic and do the whole Khriss and Nazh thing for a while so they know a lot about the magic, but they've also left themselves a lot of options with what they can do. So then they manage to pull up a gold shadow of them having actually become a Surgebinder and then kind of meld themselves with that shadow a bunch, could they change their Cognitive Identity enough so that they could, like, tap a lot of gold and grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder?

Brandon Sanderson

Unfortunately, no. It's a good question, but no. That won't work for a couple of reasons. One of which is, simply creating Investiture is not something that can happen, right?

Djarskublar

They are a gold Twinborn, so they can tap a lot of gold...

Brandon Sanderson

They can tap a whole bunch, that's true, they can do that, but simply having it is not gonna create a spren because the spren is from a different god, right, a different Shard.

 

Edited by therunner
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13 hours ago, therunner said:

Nicrosil Compounder would likely not be able to create more Breath, as Breath is Investiture of Endowment, and Compounders get Preservations Investiture.

 

Ah, true. I think that compounding might still happen, but Breaths would be converted into Preservation's investiture in the process. Hm... But then tapping it should make the person more invested, yes? So, potentially a temporary Mistborn perhaps? 

Also what if you store this unkeyed  compounded Preservation's investiture in a Nicrosil spike and then insert it in a  corresponding bind point of an unpowered person? With some added Connection shenanigans it might allow for a permanent artificial increase in a person's investment level. Which should express itself in a random allomantic power, just like it does in natural Mistings. 

I guess that I badly want for Metallic Arts to become broadly accessible and integrated into everyday life on Scadrial, rather than being reserved for the rarest of the genetic elite, who alone merited the protagonist status so far. There was some movement in that direction in Era 2, but not nearly enough, IMHO.  We were still mainly following superheroes by birthright. 

I know that it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't want the Mistborn back - they were far too overpowered and unfocused. Well, one as an antagonist may be interesting, so if it's still the plan for the next trilogy, I am game. Instead, I'd like everyone to be a functional Metalborn of some kind, with potentially a limited access to a couple of extra abilities via gadgets. So that skill, cleverness, creativity and teamwork would carry the day, rather than just an unbeatable power advantage. 

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2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Ah, true. I think that compounding might still happen, but Breaths would be converted into Preservation's investiture in the process. Hm... But then tapping it should make the person more invested, yes? So, potentially a temporary Mistborn perhaps?

I don't think it would make temporary Mistborn, you would still lack 'Mistborness', you would just be more Invested with variety of effects like we see in TSM.

Mistborn are not  even all that more Invested than Mistings, in the grand scheme of things.

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Also what if you store this unkeyed  compounded Preservation's investiture in a Nicrosil spike and then insert it in a  corresponding bind point of an unpowered person? With some added Connection shenanigans it might allow for a permanent artificial increase in a person's investment level. Which should express itself in a random allomantic power, just like it does in natural Mistings.

It would not be power, not unless you programmed it. We see something similar with Set's experiments in TLM, and the powers are temporary and volatile (if they are granted at all), but it has one advantage, in that it is taken from soul of someone (so it comes partially pre-programmed I would think).

If it is just unkeyed raw Preservation's Investiture, that alone won't grant power. It would Invest the person, but not grant them power. You can have Invested soul without having powers. The Investiture would be basically what Mists are, and those have to be guided to Invest person to grant them powers (i.e. programmed).

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

I guess that I badly want for Metallic Arts to become broadly accessible and integrated into everyday life on Scadrial, rather than being reserved for the rarest of the genetic elite, who alone merited the protagonist status so far. There was some movement in that direction in Era 2, but not nearly enough, IMHO.  We were still mainly following superheroes by birthright.

I think we will get there, but by technological means, i.e. Medallions, not by Investing the person directly.

Brandon stated that is direction Scadrial is going, mechanized Invested Arts. And we do see that in TSM as well.

Quote

I know that it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't want the Mistborn back - they were far too overpowered and unfocused. Well, one as an antagonist may be interesting, so if it's still the plan for the next trilogy, I am game. Instead, I'd like everyone to be a functional Metalborn of some kind, with potentially a limited access to a couple of extra abilities via gadgets. So that skill, cleverness, creativity and teamwork would carry the day, rather than just an unbeatable power advantage. 

I am in favour of this as well, and I think that is the direction it will go.

Also, this way Roshar and Scadrial would be furhter differentiated, with Roshar having less, but more powerful magic users with broad powers, and Scadrial far more, but less powerful specialized in few skills. Sort of generalist vs specialist move.

Edited by therunner
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On 5/30/2024 at 11:05 PM, Trusk'our said:

Whaaaaaaaat, that was the furthest thing from my mind. Definitely 😅

Dang. Well...Whatever. If they tax innate power from the metalborn, then I guarantee that they'll tax strength, intelligence, and every other earned attribute possessed by the non-metalborn. That's...the way it goes...😅

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2 hours ago, hwiles said:

Dang. Well...Whatever. If they tax innate power from the metalborn, then I guarantee that they'll tax strength, intelligence, and every other earned attribute possessed by the non-metalborn. That's...the way it goes...😅

The Scadrian government is gonna reignite the Steel inquisition, it seems. Only instead of being priests, as tax collectors.

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