Survivorism Manipulated By Autonomy?

[Heilven]

Spoilers for all of Mistborn Era 2

I recently reread The Alloy of Law, and I was somewhat stunned by a particular line said by Miles about the tenants of survivorism:

Quote

He appeared on nights when the mists were thick and gave his blessing to the independent. Whether they be thieves, scholars, anarchists, or a farmer who lived on his own land. Anyone who survived on his own---or who thought for himself---was someone who followed the Survivor, whether he knew it or not

To me, this sounds almost word for word what autonomy requires of her followers. Ruthless self determinism and the need to prove yourself through individual survival.

These tenants also seem far removed not only from Kelsier's actual beliefs, but from the origins of survivorism in the final empire. This may just be due to the obvious shifts in the religion due to power structures within their society, but it seems so similar to the tenants of autonomy that it stuck out to me.

[JustQuestin2004]

8 hours ago, Heilven said:

Spoilers for all of Mistborn Era 2

I recently reread The Alloy of Law, and I was somewhat stunned by a particular line said by Miles about the tenants of survivorism:

To me, this sounds almost word for word what autonomy requires of her followers. Ruthless self determinism and the need to prove yourself through individual survival.

These tenants also seem far removed not only from Kelsier's actual beliefs, but from the origins of survivorism in the final empire. This may just be due to the obvious shifts in the religion due to power structures within their society, but it seems so similar to the tenants of autonomy that it stuck out to me.

You know your not wrong.

Maybe Autonomy is using misdirection and playing the long game. Giving Harmony and those allied with him an obvious target, the Set and Trell, all the while slowly corrupting a pre-existing religion that has become the most prevalent to her own ends.

Sounds almost poetic, the religion created by Kelsier to give the Skaa hope and the will to rebel against tyranny, becoming slowly corrupted by a tyrant far worse than the Lord Ruler to control the masses.

In fact:

Elantris Speculation Spoilers

Spoiler

I think Autonomy has done something very similar with Shu-Dereth on Sel, a pre-existing religion aligned with Dominion that Autonomy changed to suit her own ends and increasing its prevalence to gain more control over the masses. Though it's not confirmed its a solid line of reasoning should Jaddeth turn out to be an Avatar of Autonomy.

 

Edited April 23 by JustQuestin2004

[Treamayne]

 

9 hours ago, Heilven said:

To me, this sounds almost word for word what autonomy requires of her followers. Ruthless self determinism and the need to prove yourself through individual survival.

These tenants also seem far removed not only from Kelsier's actual beliefs, but from the origins of survivorism in the final empire. This may just be due to the obvious shifts in the religion due to power structures within their society, but it seems so similar to the tenants of autonomy that it stuck out to me.

Yes, it does sound like it may have been influenced by Autonomy. The WoB says (about the Doctrine):

Spoiler

fbstj

What reasons do Survivorists use to rationalize heterosexuality? Thank you so much for these tidbits it's really interesting to hear more about this stuff from you. It would be great to see some of this canonized, maybe in an interlude, or random background discussion somewhere. Thank you again for your books! Also very interested in hearing why secular Iriali have decided to 'regress' on that.

Brandon Sanderson

Survivorism calls it unnatural, and not conducive to the survival of the species. More than that, though, Survivorism has become very conservative and slow to change. What early thinkers had to say is regarded very strictly in the religion. Back during the early days of the new era, repopulating the basin was of prime concern, and this became a big part of what led to moral codes in Survivorism.

General Reddit 2017 (Jan. 4, 2017)

So, it seems that early post-catecendre saw significant shifts in the Survivorist doctrine, and those shifts have become the status quo. 

Edited April 23 by Treamayne
Reminder

[Lord Spirit]

If I had a nickel for every time a shard corrupted a religion to take over Scadrial...

[CtrlAltDepressed]

You'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird it happened twice.

[Heilven]

On 4/23/2024 at 1:31 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Maybe Autonomy is using misdirection and playing the long game. Giving Harmony and those allied with him an obvious target, the Set and Trell, all the while slowly corrupting a pre-existing religion that has become the most prevalent to her own ends.

Sounds almost poetic, the religion created by Kelsier to give the Skaa hope and the will to rebel against tyranny, becoming slowly corrupted by a tyrant far worse than the Lord Ruler to control the masses.

This definitely sounds like something she would do, or at least have several different plans for Scadrial. I wouldn't be surprised if she has plans for the malwish as well.

On 4/23/2024 at 5:20 AM, Treamayne said:

So, it seems that early post-catecendre saw significant shifts in the Survivorist doctrine, and those shifts have become the status quo.

The stagnation of society in Northern Scadrial is definitely going to be extremely important in the future. Especially when we consider the rapid growth of malwish technology.

Slight spoilers for SP4/5

Spoiler

I can't deny that I'm not somewhat afraid for the future of scadrial given the small amount we have seen from Sunlit Man and Isles of the Emberdark

 

Edited April 25 by Heilven

[MindMeltingMistwraith]

Kind of curious now... could the Lord Ruler have been influenced by Autonomy? Seems a little far-fetched because Scadrial already was dishardic... but the way technology completely halted seems like the kind of thing Autonomy would do. Maybe I'm just grasping at threads, but I'll definitely be thinking about this more.

Spoiler

On 4/25/2024 at 2:42 PM, Heilven said:

I can't deny that I'm not somewhat afraid for the future of scadrial given the small amount we have seen from Sunlit Man and Isles of the Emberdark

Reading the mentions of Scadrial in Sunlit Man gave me an incredibly strange mixture of terror and excitement. Seeing Scadrial hit that level of Cosmere-awareness... blows my mind.

Edited April 29 by MindMeltingMistwraith

[Heilven]

3 hours ago, MindMeltingMistwraith said:

could the Lord Ruler have been influenced by Autonomy? Seems a little far-fetched because Scadrial already was dishardic... but the way technology completely halted seems like the kind of thing Autonomy would do

So I would actually say that is the opposite of something autonomy would do. She tends to push for a fast progression of technology, not a slow one. Rashek's push for slow progress was out of an effort to make sure his society remained in a place where he could ascend again when the time came.

[MindMeltingMistwraith]

Ah, okay. Thanks for setting me straight! It's been a bit since my last reread.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

27 minutes ago, Heilven said:

So I would actually say that is the opposite of something autonomy would do. She tends to push for a fast progression of technology, not a slow one.

On the contrary, she seems to have locked down Taldain because they were too advanced and would soon be expanding to other systems. This is why Khriss is unable to go home.

[Treamayne]

36 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

On the contrary, she seems to have locked down Taldain because they were too advanced and would soon be expanding to other systems. This is why Khriss is unable to go home.

True, but that was not a "slow down progress" so much as a "I want to stay separate."

The lack of Worldhoppers, shared information or access to Silverlight had a tangential effect on Taldain's tech level in comparison with other ShardWorlds (which is, presumably, why they opened the borders again when they realized the deleterious side effects). 

[Y F-N]

On 4/29/2024 at 11:05 AM, MindMeltingMistwraith said:

Kind of curious now... could the Lord Ruler have been influenced by Autonomy? Seems a little far-fetched because Scadrial already was dishardic... but the way technology completely halted seems like the kind of thing Autonomy would do. Maybe I'm just grasping at threads, but I'll definitely be thinking about this more.

I think if any Shard is at play here, it's actually Preservation. An entire society, remaining stagnant, never changing, being forever Preserved in a state of the past. It's kind of Preservation taken to the extreme. I recall in one of Kelsier's conversations with Preservation in Secret History that Preservation says he admires what the Lord Ruler created.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

6 hours ago, Y F-N said:

I think if any Shard is at play here, it's actually Preservation. An entire society, remaining stagnant, never changing, being forever Preserved in a state of the past. It's kind of Preservation taken to the extreme. I recall in one of Kelsier's conversations with Preservation in Secret History that Preservation says he admires what the Lord Ruler created.

That would make the most sense. However, it appears Sanderson (bafflingly imo) went the direction of Preservation being the force of protection rather than stagnation. And instead, he pins all the Lord Ruler's Shard driven atrocities onto Ruin. In fact, while Fuzz likes the Lord Ruler because of his immortality and bringing of stability, it was mentioned he disagrees with the Lord Ruler's actions.