Hidden Heralds

[Zas678 he/him]

So many of us have been chatting in the chatroom, and we decided we needed a thread designated to different ideas about who/where the Heralds might be.

First, because I am the Quote-master, let's have some base from Brandon.

1. Shallash is almost certianly Baxil's Mistress.

OROME

The question i asked him was, 'Is Shallash the lady smashing up the art in The Way of Kings?'

BRANDON SANDERSON

He was apprehensive to say it out loud, but he wrote in my copy of Alloy of Law 'Shallash appears in The Way of Kings'!

Source

2. Jezrien is most likely in Way of Kings

Terez (a fantastic WoT theorizer and fan who did a ton of the work for the Interview Database) had her book signed, and this is one of the things written in it:

(It reads "Where is Jezrien?)

3. There's a (possible) main character Herald that hasn't been formally recognized.

MARC APLIN

Okay, the next question we have—I think this one you might have answered before—but have we met all the main point-of-view characters yet? Or, if not, what percentage are we talking?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You have met almost all of them. <snip> And one of the other Heralds (besides Taln); I'm not going to tell you who that is. But I think you've met...you have, I'm sure, met that person; I know he's in there.

4. Taln is the Herald in the Epilogue

The man froze. Heraised a hand to his head, wavering. “Who am I? I . . . I am Talenel’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty.

pg. 998ish

5. There are several Heralds in WoK

FIRE ARCADIA

How many Heralds appear in The Way of Kings

BRANDON SANDERSON

More than you might expect. Some have appeared, some have been mentioned but not appeared.

Source

6. Jezrien is not a Sliver.

ERI PL ()

Is Jezrien a Sliver?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Jezrien is one of the Heralds, but has never held the power of an entire Shard himself. (So no, not a Sliver.)

Source

7. There aren't 5 Heralds in WoK

This one actually came from a misquote.

Someone said "Brandon said there were 5 Heralds that showed up in WoK." Peter said the following:

I'm just going to say that five is not the answer. Could be more, could be fewer.

Note that at current, we have 4 at least. Kelek, Jezrien, Shallash, Taln.

Okay, now it's time for guessing. So we have, for certain (Or within a reasonable doubt), Shallash and Taln.That leaves:

Jezrien- Niter

Nalan-

Chach-

Vev-

Palah-

Betab-

Kalak- Fluent Bridgemen

Ishi- Drunk Beggar in Prologue,

I know there's a Herald theory out there about a Bridgeman, saying he's Kelek.

There's also a Ishi theory out there, that he's the drunk bearded guy who talks to Szeth in the Prologue, and I'll let them explain that theory as well.

But I like my theory. I believe that Jezrien is Niter, the man in charge of the Cobalt Gaurd.

The figure in white and blue glanced toward him. Even after all these centuries, Jezrien looked young, like a man barely into his thirtieth year. His short black beard was neatly trimmed, though his once-fine clothing was scorched and stained with blood.

Niter--head of the Cobalt Guard--ran to intercept the newcomers. He could be overly suspicious at times, but that wasn’t a terrible trait for a bodyguard to have. He returned to Dalinar and Adolin shortly. Tan-faced, Niter bore a dark black beard, cut short. He was a lighteyes of very low rank, and had been with the guard for years.

And what are Dalinar's colors? That's right. Blue and white. Jezrien's also an important enough person for Brandon to make a main character, but Niter is someone who is currently obscure enough to make Brandon hesitate before saying he's in the book.

So what are your guesses? Is Nalan the merchant from the Interludes? Is Beteb a random scribe? Make your guesses!

[lil_literalist he/him]

Ok, so there is a man described in Chapter 53 who is given a small bit of detail. He is a wounded bridgeman from another crew that Kaladin decides to help. When Kaladin first approaches, he thinks that the man is Emuli, because of his dark skin. However, the man speaks perfect Alethi, with no trace of an accent. He seems very grateful to Kaladin, whereas the other bridgemen rescued in the chapter seem bemused. Now, why is this character suspicious?

Look at Taln. He is also dark-skinned, darkeyed, and somehow speaks perfect Alethi. Just like our mysterious bridgeman. I won't try to claim which specific Herald I think he is, but I claim that he is one of the Heralds.

EDIT: Actually, I will make a claim as to which Herald this is. We know that there are 5 male and 5 female Heralds. The males are: Jezrien, Kalak, Taln, Ishi, and Nalan. We know that it's not Taln, and we have descriptions of three others: Nalan, Ishi, and Jezrien (bald, huge beard, and close-cut beard, respectively). By elimination, that means that this bridgeman would have to be Kalak.

Edited May 4, 2012 by lil_literalist

[CrazyRioter she/her]

it's an interesting theory, I've wondered about that guy myself, since he was never mentioned again and doesn't seem to have a purpose.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I think at least one or two Heralds are with the Parshendi. I don't think it's a coincidence that the knife Kaladin finds on their corpses in the Chasm Duty chapter has a picture of what he thinks is either Jezerezeh or Nalan.

[Sunblesser]

i stand by my theory that the drunk in the prologue is ishar. though there seems to be a great many other candidates i haven't noticed. i honestly cannot recall this dark-skinned bridgeman in the slightest.

the drunk confronts szeth:

A man with a long grey and black beard slumped in the doorway, smiling foolishly - though whether from wine or a weak mind, Szeth could not tell..."Have you seen me?" the man asked with slurred speech. He laughed, then began to speak in gibberish, reaching for a wineskin.

ishar has a long beard, and my theory was, the reason he asked szeth if he'd seen him is because ishar's likeness is everywhere in vorin alethkar. a little weaker bit of evidence is that dalinar's rambling's in dawnchant were also described as gibberish by people who couldnt understand it.

but i agree that niter and this bridgeman have just as much circumstantial evidence going for them. 'specially niter=jezrien

[Zas678 he/him]

Huh, I didn't think of Ishar when I saw the beggar. Truth be told, my first guess would be Hoid. But it makes more sense with the gibberish and the drunkeness for the 'beggar' to be Ishar.

[Windrunner he/him]

I'll admit that the gibberish point is convincing. I'm curious about why everyone seems to peg this man for Ishar though. Is there a point I missed? Also @Sunblesser, who is Niter?

Edit:

Figured it out, it helps to read the posts above me

I don't really understand what a Herald would stand to gain from being Dalinar's guard or even what he'd be interested in. If he wanted to see Dalinar's Radiant powers progress you think he might have stepped up to the plate a little bit to stop the slaughter of Dalinar's armies or to save the highprince at least.

I wouldn't read too much into the Heralds' appearance in the arches, I think Brandon has implied that those aren't so much an accurate representation as an in-world image. I kind of disagree with the idea that the man having no accent is an indication he's a Herald. I don't think they would have no accent, just a different accent. Of course if they are worldhoppers they would also have a different accent as well. I don't real have an explanation of how someone would end up with no accent.

[hoser he/him]

Good catches, guys! These do seem to be loose ends. Heralds would be an explanation for the extraneous and discordant details.

On the relevance of an accent (expanding on the point lil_literalist made above):

Taln was being tortured for 4500 years or so.

When he died, people spoke dawnchant.

When he returns his first words are:

"Go," he said raggedly, speaking perfect Alethi, no hint of an accent. "Run! Raise the call! Give the warning!"

So presumably Heralds can communicate without accents or having to study the changes in the language over time. Thus the lack of an accent could support heraldry.

One other reference drew my attention. In the final scene between Taralongnameian and Szeth, T makes a reference to a Lifebrother.

"Yes, I speak your language. Sometimes I wonder if the Lifebrother himself sent you to me."

The heralds seem to be immortal (not dying of old age). If one had gone to Shinovar, Lifebrother might be a way to refer to an immortal. Szeth was well trained before he ventured out as truthless. A herald could have helped with that. Szeth has a unique sword that turns his eyes blue and (I believe) gives him windrunner powers. A herald in Shinovar would know where the Honorblades are. The Shin could have retrieved some or all of them.

This possibility combined with the Niter theory leads to some interesting scenarios. Presumably Niter (if he is Jezrien) didn't die on the Tower because he didn't reappear with Taln. When Szeth comes to publicly kill Dalinar, Niter/Jezrien could be there. Szeth whips out Jezrien's Honorblade and Jezrien does some awesome Herald thing (although, come to think of it, the only things we've seen the heralds do are quit, faint, possibly vandalize artwork and maybe get really plastered).

Another interesting thought is that if Niter=Jezrien=head of Cobalt Guard, then if he was serving when Gavilar was assassinated, he might have met the supposed Ishi. Niter might even know how to find Ishi.

Edited May 7, 2012 by hoser

[Triasmus]

Szeth has a unique sword that turns his eyes blue and (I believe) gives him windrunner powers.

Every shardblade makes it's bearer a lighteyes automatically.

[Windrunner he/him]

I also disagree with the idea that Szeth is using the Honorblade of a Herald. Firstly, I believe it's mentioned that the blade fit him, which wouldn't be the case if it had been made for Jezrien who I doubt was the same height as any of the Shin. Also I don't think the Honorblades work in the same way as Shardblades do and aside from its length Szeth's seems typical. In fact Szeth's Shardblade is described only as, "shorter then most others" not unnaturally short. Also who knows what kind of affects wielding an Honorblade would have on the person. The Heralds apparently couldn't keep them and break the Oathpact at the same time. Perhaps even holding one would bind the person to the Oathpact but it doesn't appear anything unusual has happened to Szeth because of the Shardblade. Although the name Lifebrother is interesting, I wonder what it refers too.

[Morsk he/him]

ishar has a long beard, and my theory was, the reason he asked szeth if he'd seen him is because ishar's likeness is everywhere in vorin alethkar. a little weaker bit of evidence is that dalinar's rambling's in dawnchant were also described as gibberish by people who couldnt understand it.

Also, the man was nearby a set of Herald statues, which Szeth passes just after walking past him. I see him as a Herald who wants to forget his past, and so seeks obscurity as a beggar. But this one night he drank too much and started rambling about it. I never could decide on which Herald though; I like the connection you found between Ishi and the beard.

[hoser he/him]

Every shardblade makes it's bearer a lighteyes automatically.

Yes. The eyes become a lighter version of the same color and stay that way.

Szeth's sword changes the color of his eyes to blue while he carries it, after which they revert to their previous color.

paperback chapter I-3 p210:

The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale - almost glowing - sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

Edited: added quote

Edited May 8, 2012 by hoser

[hoser he/him]

I also disagree with the idea that Szeth is using the Honorblade of a Herald. Firstly, I believe it's mentioned that the blade fit him, which wouldn't be the case if it had been made for Jezrien who I doubt was the same height as any of the Shin.

All I can find is this (p 14):

His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others.

Where does it say that it specifically fits him?

Also I don't think the Honorblades work in the same way as Shardblades do and aside from its length Szeth's seems typical. In fact Szeth's Shardblade is described only as, "shorter then most others" not unnaturally short. Also who knows what kind of affects wielding an Honorblade would have on the person. The Heralds apparently couldn't keep them and break the Oathpact at the same time. Perhaps even holding one would bind the person to the Oathpact but it doesn't appear anything unusual has happened to Szeth because of the Shardblade.

Okay. I don't want to be defensive. But I am confused (not uncommon). It seems to me that you are saying that the blade is too short to possibly be Jezrien's but not unnaturally short. Are you trying to have it both ways?

Yeah, the Heralds didn't think they could keep them. It's possible someone else would get sucked into the Oathpact if they picked up the Honorblades, but I am not aware of any supporting evidence for that theory.

The Honorblade theory explains the following:

1. The Honorblades are described as unique. Szeth describes his sword as unique.
   
2. It is smaller and two-sided, whereas the normal Shardblades are single-sided.
   
3. It turns his eyes blue (your color!) temporarily where a normal Shardblade would lighten his eyes permanently without changing the color.
   
4. If not from the sword, then how do you explain his gaining the surges corresponding to the eye color change the sword gives him?
   

I can't prove anything. Please offer some textual evidence that my theory is wrong. I love being right, but if I am wrong, I want to know it.

[Windrunner he/him]

All I can find is this (p 14):

Where does it say that it specifically fits him?

Okay. I don't want to be defensive. But I am confused (not uncommon). It seems to me that you are saying that the blade is too short to possibly be Jezrien's but not unnaturally short. Are you trying to have it both ways?

I remember reading it specifically fits him but I can't find it. It's been at least 6 months since I gave it a real read-through so I could be wrong. (I need to buy a paperback so I don't mess up my hard copy) What I was saying is, yes it is a short sword, probably too short to have been built for Jezrien who was of normal or higher height. But that is not to say that the length of Szeth's sword is unique. There are other shorter Shardblades out there which would be even more the wrong size. Does that make sense? Too short for Jezrien but not the only blade that would have been too short for him.

Yeah, the Heralds didn't think they could keep them. It's possible someone else would get sucked into the Oathpact if they picked up the Honorblades, but I am not aware of any supporting evidence for that theory.

Well the fact that Heralds believed that they had to give them up to escape the Oathpact is enough evidence for me. They would be the best informed after all. If I was one of them I wouldn't have given up my awesome unique weapon. I'll admit though that escaping the Oathpact doesn't have to be the only reason. Maybe they didn't want to be reminded of their treachery. I'm just throwing out potential problems here.

The Honorblade theory explains the following:

1. The Honorblades are described as unique. Szeth describes his sword as unique.
   
2. It is smaller and two-sided, whereas the normal Shardblades are single-sided.
   
3. It turns his eyes blue (your color!) temporarily where a normal Shardblade would lighten his eyes permanently without changing the color.
   
4. If not from the sword, then how do you explain his gaining the surges corresponding to the eye color change the sword gives him?
   

As far as I can remember every Shardblade is unique. So that doesn't mean that Szeth's sword is strange, just that most of the blades we have seen are one-sided. I personally feel that this is Szeth's Shardblade, and it was specifically tailored to his size and fighting style. Can you imagine this 5 foot (or so) tall man trying to efficiently use a sword that was at least 6 feet long? I don't remember where it says in the book that your eyes would become permanently lightened with another Blade, can you point me to a quote? I always assumed it always worked just like Szeth's did. Also how do you make a dark brown eyed man a lighteye without changing the eye color? Brown is a dark color isn't it? Maybe this is explained elsewhere, I really need to read that book again. Also it's not that incredible that his eyes become blue. There's only so many eye colors out there. Blue is one of the three (I think it was 3 or so) lighteyes colors. If his eyes had turned red or gold I might suspect something was up.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

The Alethi believe that a darkeyed person who claims a Shardblade will end up with light eyes, but as far as I know that's just a story and I'm not sure any of the characters have actual evidence of it.

Also Amaram has "tan" eyes, which I think counts as "light brown".

[hoser he/him]

... yes it is a short sword, probably too short to have been built for Jezrien who was of normal or higher height. But that is not to say that the length of Szeth's sword is unique. There are other shorter Shardblades out there which would be even more the wrong size. Does that make sense? Too short for Jezrien but not the only blade that would have been too short for him.

Szeth describes it as long and thin. He is relatively short. Under the influence of stormlight, I imagine he would be strong enough to use it. I don't remember anything about people not being able to use Shardblades due to their height. The female Stoneward in the midnight essence vision and Shallan don't seem to see it as a problem.

Well the fact that Heralds believed that they had to give them up to escape the Oathpact is enough evidence for me.

The main bullet hole for me is that the Heralds were already involved in the Oathpact. The blades may even have been involved also. Keeping the blades (a benefit) might have interfered with their ending the Oathpact or drawn them to the place of torture. Whereas some random truthless born 4500 years after the Oathpact ended might not have the same problem because he had no other connection to the Oathpact.

I personally feel that this is Szeth's Shardblade, and it was specifically tailored to his size and fighting style.

Now this is a cool theory. The Shin are making new Shardblades. Interesting.

I don't remember where it says in the book that your eyes would become permanently lightened with another Blade, can you point me to a quote?

Not only do the eyes get permanently lightened, but your descendants eyes keep the change (sDNA or something). This is the basis of the Alethi and Veden nobility. When Kaladin kills the Shardbearer his men call him a lighteyes in anticipation of him picking up the sword. At the end, Hoid comments that there was a good reason for lighteyes having been in charge. Or look at the Recreance vision. Dalinar talks to one of the knights after the Blades and Plates are abandoned. His eyes are nearly white.

But not the Heralds and their Honorblades. Witness Taln at the end, his eyes are dark brown.

I always assumed it always worked just like Szeth's did. Also how do you make a dark brown eyed man a lighteye without changing the eye color? Brown is a dark color isn't it?

If I lightened brown, I would get something like light brown, tan or amber. For me, it would be something like mixing brown and white paint. I wouldn't get blue.

Also it's not that incredible that his eyes become blue.

There are two points I was apparently failing to make:

1. His eyes go from dark green to light blue when he takes up the sword. But this isn't the first time he took up the sword. So his eyes must revert when he stops carrying it. This is not how normal Shardblades work.
   
2. Blue is the color of your namesake order. The one whose surges he is able to use without oaths or spren. I think it's a hint that the sword is related to the surgebinding abilities he uses.
   

Really, I'm just applying Occam's razor to the problem of the unusual sword and the unexplained surgebinding abilities. Your idea about the Shin fabricating Shardblades in the contemporary Rosharian era seems more interesting. Please let me know what I've gotten wrong here.

[Telcontar]

I was under the impression, that Shardblades automatically fit to the size of their holder. I won't find a quote to back that up, but we know that Shardplate functions that way. There is no big or small set of Shardplate. When you use it, it fits to your body, adapting itself.

Why shouldn't Shardblades work the same way? They are no mere swords. They are invested objects, magical. I don't belive it too far stretched, that a sword that can disappear when droppen and appear when summoned can adapt its size.

[Vikter]

On the topic of Szeth's blade not being a normal Shardblade I feel like it is important to note that it is mentioned that he cannot give up his Blade. Even if ordered by the holder of his Oathstone, I believe he (Szeth, in his own mind) states that if the holder of his Oathstone orders him to relinquish his blade he would be forced to kill him. I don not have. Page reference right now, posted from my phone.

Off topic: First post on these forums!

[frozndevl]

On the topic of Szeth's blade not being a normal Shardblade I feel like it is important to note that it is mentioned that he cannot give up his Blade. Even if ordered by the holder of his Oathstone, I believe he (Szeth, in his own mind) states that if the holder of his Oathstone orders him to relinquish his blade he would be forced to kill him. I don not have. Page reference right now, posted from my phone.

Off topic: First post on these forums!

I see the situation of him not being able to relinquish his blade as more a part of his Oath than anything more. It has been posited that the sword plays some role in his being Truthless.

[Aeshdan he/him]

I see the situation of him not being able to relinquish his blade as more a part of his Oath than anything more. It has been posited that the sword plays some role in his being Truthless.

Yes. There are only two things he won't do even if ordered: Kill himself or give up his Blade.

[Sweetness she/her]

I believe it was that Szeth was given the blade as part of his punishment.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

yeah, King T. implied that.

[Dros]

If the Shin believed the Heralds lied about the Victory over the Voidbringers and the Shin had found the Honorblades, it might not be too much of a stretch to believe being named Truthless damns a man to carrying one of the Blades of the biggest liars in history. Is it ever mentioned how many Truthless are out there?

[Telcontar]

Not exactly, but this seems to imply that Szeth is the only Truthless

paperback, pg 539, I-4.

(the Shin merchant speaking about Szeth)

But I do not think it likely we will have another like him. [...] Indeed, I should hope what we never do...

[hoser he/him]

If the Shin believed the Heralds lied about the Victory over the Voidbringers and the Shin had found the Honorblades, it might not be too much of a stretch to believe being named Truthless damns a man to carrying one of the Blades of the biggest liars in history. Is it ever mentioned how many Truthless are out there?

This being Roshar, there would have to be ten . I think Telcontar's post provides the real answer.

As for what the Shin believe, it seems that they are as rotating fastenered up as anyone else on that world. Apparently, the Stone Shamen deny the existence of Voidbringers. Another group, which Szeth must have been involved with and may have included his grandfather, very much believes in the Voidbringers.

The punishment of being Truthless doesn't just punish Szeth. It is an act of staggering irresponsibility toward the rest of the world. It provided a weapon of staggering power to people not morally equipped to use it well. In effect, it is like the Radiants dumping their Blades and Plate for anyone to pick up.

From the Prologue, p 13:

He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it (stormlight) in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did.