Connection Transformation

[Trusk'our]

Quick thought here;

If meddling with Connection can change your soul to think you've grown up in a different place, would a highly Invested person who meddled with their Connection physically change to fit said Connection?

For example, if a Connector Ferring were to somehow Tap Connection saying that they had been born Nalthian and they had already obtained lots of Breath to become highly Invested, would their appearance change to look like a Nalthian too?

I'm sort of basing this off of Yumi, as she was able to transform Painter's body when possessing it due to her high level of Investiture.

I know Identity and perception are going to play a massive role in this, but I'm curious as to what others think.

 

 

[Topaz52]

my understanding of connection and identity is a little fuzzy, so im not 100% sure about my logic but:

we know that Returned can change their appearance, however that might have more to do with them being cognitive shadows and Intent than Connection

i don’t remember if whether or not it was stated if a person could change their appearance through soulstamping, but because we know you can change an object’s appearance, i don’t see why not a person’s

so im not sure if messing with Connection regarding where you were born etc WILL change your appearance, but i think if you’re skilled enough it’s possible to use Connection that way

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Quick thought here;

If meddling with Connection can change your soul to think you've grown up in a different place, would a highly Invested person who meddled with their Connection physically change to fit said Connection?

For example, if a Connector Ferring were to somehow Tap Connection saying that they had been born Nalthian and they had already obtained lots of Breath to become highly Invested, would their appearance change to look like a Nalthian too?

I'm sort of basing this off of Yumi, as she was able to transform Painter's body when possessing it due to her high level of Investiture.

I know Identity and perception are going to play a massive role in this, but I'm curious as to what others think.

I think yes and I think we've seen this happening in RoW I-5:

Quote

He trailed off as they stumbled across the corpse.
It was an old Alethi man in robes. He’d been killed with some kind of knife wound to the chest, and lay—his eyes open—on the ground. Blood on his lips.
[...]
“Who was he?” she asked. “Wyndle, do you recognize him?”
“I believe I’ve seen him before. A minor Alethi functionary, though his eyes are different now. Curious. Look at his fingers—tan skin with bands of lighter skin. He was wearing jewelry once.”

That was Gereh, a Feruchemist:

Spoiler

starman2995

Who owned the red chicken, and what was its purpose?

Brandon Sanderson

The red chicken was owned by the Feruchemist who was keeping an eye on Dalinar in his house.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

[Quantus]

29 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think yes and I think we've seen this happening in RoW I-5:

That was Gereh, a Feruchemist:

  Hide contents

starman2995

Who owned the red chicken, and what was its purpose?

Brandon Sanderson

The red chicken was owned by the Feruchemist who was keeping an eye on Dalinar in his house.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Devil's advocate question:  Did his eyes change because he was meddling with his appearance via previously unknown Feruchemy, or did he just lose a Shard when he died and revert to his native (possibly dark) eyes?

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Devil's advocate question:  Did his eyes change because he was meddling with his appearance via previously unknown Feruchemy, or did he just lose a Shard when he died and revert to his native (possibly dark) eyes?

It's implied that his eyes changed from Alethi-shaped to Terris Shaped because however he had changed his appearance ended with his death. We do not know what methed was used to change his appearance, but please notice that Felt also does not appear to have "shin eyes" when we see him on Roshar (though if appearing with his natural Scadrian Eyes, they would have been described as such) Dalinar remarks on his lack o fheight, but says nothing about his eyes. 

It is likely they are using similar methods of "blending in"

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Quick thought here;

If meddling with Connection can change your soul to think you've grown up in a different place, would a highly Invested person who meddled with their Connection physically change to fit said Connection?

For example, if a Connector Ferring were to somehow Tap Connection saying that they had been born Nalthian and they had already obtained lots of Breath to become highly Invested, would their appearance change to look like a Nalthian too?

I'm sort of basing this off of Yumi, as she was able to transform Painter's body when possessing it due to her high level of Investiture.

I know Identity and perception are going to play a massive role in this, but I'm curious as to what others think.

I don't think it is Connection, alone, that causes physical changes in a host - though I would guess that Connection is at least part of the equation.

1. When we see Shai use the Shaizan soul stamp, it creates physical changes in her body - but that soul stamp is afecting her spiritual Identity as well as her Connection (and possibly other metrics). 
2. We see Yumi change Painter's body, but while her Spiritweb was Connected to his body by the hijo, the reason it changed was explained to be her level of investiture and the fact that her Identity overwrote the body's Identity while she was "in residence"
3. With the Returned, we see both greater and lesser changes (as well as unintentional changes) but Vasher explains it as being solely due to Divine Breath (level of investiture) and Identity. 

References:

Spoiler

Felt WoB:

Quote

Questioner

You know Felt?

Brandon Sanderson

Felt, I know Felt.

Questioner

Is Felt originally Scadrian?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep... You guys know about that, right? I don't think that's a big secret. But, he is, and that should be raising other questions.

Questioner

About his name? Or how he's showing up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

About that and the fact that-- He should stand out more.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

TES Day 98:

Quote

In that fraction of a moment, she remembered both histories. She remembered two years spent locked away, planning, creating the Essence Mark. She remembered a lifetime of being a Forger.

At the same time, she remembered spending the last fifteen years among the Teullu people. They had adopted her and trained her in their martial arts.

Two places at once, two timelines at once.

Then the former faded, and she became Shaizan, the name the Teullu had given her. Her body became leaner, harder. The body of a warrior. She slipped off her spectacles. Her eyes had been healed long ago, and she didn’t need those any longer.

Yumi Ch 17:

Quote

“Who are you?” Design said, ignoring Painter and looking at Yumi. “You’ve got a storming strong Spiritual aspect, highly Invested in some strange way. Otherwise you wouldn’t have been able to rewrite his body with your soul and warp it to match your sense of self. Shrinking and reshaping the bones, stretching and shifting the muscles… Fun stuff.”

Warbreaker Epilogue:

Quote

“Though you should have figured out that Returned can change their forms.”

She raised an eyebrow.

“You’ve got Returned blood in you,” he said. “The royal line. Where do you think that ability to change your hair color comes from?”

“Does that mean I can change more than just my hair?”

“Maybe,” he said. “Takes time to learn. Go stroll around the Hallandren Court of Gods sometime, though. You’ll find that the gods look exactly as they think they should. The old ones look old, the heroic ones become strong, the ones who think a beautiful goddess should be well endowed become unnaturally voluptuous. It’s all about how they perceive themselves.”

And this is how you perceive yourself, Vasher? she thought, curious. As the scraggly man, rough and unkempt?

 

My take is that Identity is the stonger component to affecting physical changes in the host, but Connection can help/reinforce that aspect. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I don't think Connection is enough on its own, for a similar reason as to why Allik has an accent:

Spoiler

"Ah," Allik said, raising his finger. "My soul thinks I was raised here, in your lands, but it knows that I am Malwish by descent, and that parents are from Wiestlow, so I cannot help but have an accent, yah? I got it from them. It is how the medallions always work."

If a Terrisman moves to Hallandren and taps blank Connection their soul will think they grew up there, but it will still know they're ethnically Terris. IMO Treamayne is probably right that Identity is more relevant here.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

Devil's advocate question:  Did his eyes change because he was meddling with his appearance via previously unknown Feruchemy, or did he just lose a Shard when he died and revert to his native (possibly dark) eyes?

I don't think Gereh had any Shards. He had Metalminds which were taken from him - his rings - and the chest wound sounds awfully like Hemalurgy. And since we know spiking any Feruchemical powers carries enough identity for the Hemalurgist to be able to use metalminds of the donor, it means his power was stolen (because why did Mraize steal the rings if he can't use them). We have no indication that he owned any Shards, he was an old man and barely appeared on pages - only during Navani's prologue in RoW as far as I remember. 

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

but please notice that Felt also does not appear to have "shin eyes" when we see him on Roshar (though if appearing with his natural Scadrian Eyes, they would have been described as such) Dalinar remarks on his lack o fheight, but says nothing about his eyes. 

He does, but Felt, unlike Gereh, doesn't care if he stands out. OB ch 114:

Quote

Dalinar pushed open the door. Felt stood outside, a lithe man with long, drooping mustaches and pale skin. Had to have some Shin blood in him, judging by those eyes

 

Spoiler

Avery Hinks

Is there a canonical reason why Vasher and Vivenna changed their names to Zahel and Azure on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

But if run into someone like Felt, right? Felt doesn't care. He's not hiding from anybody. Felt is, you know, he's more like "I moved from Nebraska to Texas," right? "And now I'm living in Texas." That's more how he views it a little bit. He's not a secret agent (ooh, big spoilers). Felt just, you know, he moved, so he goes by the same name. And that's, you'll see some of that as well. If someone's going by an alias, I'm doing it to indicate one of those two things, usually.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

[Rorzikel]

Adding a connection doesn't seem enough. I think you'd need to store or excise preexisting connections to your birthworld, and blank your Identity. Maybe even have to use healing to try to revamp the body to fit the new spiritual ideal.

[Malim]

I agree that Connection doesn't seem to be enough on it's own, and that it is Identity that is the most important.  I think of it like this:

Connection is as if you have taken a fully immersive set of classes on a culture. You become fluent in the language, customs, history, etc on an intellectual level.  You can communicate and understand fluently and without thought, but your sDNA hasn't changed.

Identity, however is more than that.  It overrides or represses your individual sDNA, and replaces it with something else.  It fundamentally changes who you are, and who you have been.  With that comes Connection, but on a deeper spiritual level with all that implies in the Cosmere.

Now both Connection and Identity can be changed both with "magical" and "non-magical" means in the Cosmere.  Sunlit Man spoilers:

Spoiler

Sigzil and Aux have a conversation about this when they are discussing drawing power from Sunhearts.  Aux points out that while Sigzil has Connected linguistically to the Beaconites through his abilities, he requires something else to draw heat and energy.  He can only draw energy from the Sunheart because it came from a Rosharan, and he can't draw heat from Beaconites until they invite him to become one of them.  As Zellion his Identity has shifted.  Note that the first case was "magical," and the second was not.

What does this mean for the OP's question? I think it means that Connection alone won't let you switch magical systems, but Identity will.  In the case of SoulStamping, I think both are at play.  In the case of an unkeyed Metalmind, only one is.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Malim said:

TSM Spoilers

Spoiler

Sigzil and Aux have a conversation about this when they are discussing drawing power from Sunhearts.  Aux points out that while Sigzil has Connected linguistically to the Beaconites through his abilities, he requires something else to draw heat and energy.  He can only draw energy from the Sunheart because it came from a Rosharan, and he can't draw heat from Beaconites until they invite him to become one of them.  As Zellion his Identity has shifted.  Note that the first case was "magical," and the second was not.

 

Keep in mind that part of that specific example is similar to what we see in Tress (spoilers for both):

Spoiler

Where Hoid required an "invitation" to undergo the Shaod to become Elantrian. The Beaconites extended an Invitation to Nomad, and he accepted and it was both being required for his Identity to shift enough to Share Heat in Beaconite fashion. 

We still do not know much about the mechanics of Invitation or how that applies to Spiritual Identity (or other Spiritual Characteristics); but it has been seen (so far) to factor into AonDor, Sand Mastery/Starcarved, Sprouting, and Canticle Heat Sharing.

White Sand Ars Arcanum:

Spoiler

There are no spontaneous sand masters, and only a sand master can administer the test. It's as if one has to be introduced to the power by one who already holds it, then the power itself chooses who to unlock and to what degree. This is well-documented in the Diem's records and reminds me of how Starcarved are discovered.