Awakening fleshless lifeless

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I want to ask about awakening lifeless that have been soulcast... or creating soulcast lifeless. 

Does the Awakening have to happen pre or post the soulcaster changing the target into the desired material? 

If I want to have a big, heavy, hard lifeless made out of Tungsten: would I need to awaken it and then change it to Tungsten and then infuse it with more breath to make it mobile?  Or would soulcasting a lifeless into Tungsten kill the lifeless and be a waste of breath? 

If I soulcast a corpse into Tungsten and then attempt to awaken it... does it act as a corpse or a thing?  Would it follow the rules of the 9th heightening being needed to awaken metal or because it is a corpse and you are awakening a lifeless with a 1 breath command does it treat it like a corpse and ignore the fact that it is made of metal now?  

I think the order in which it happens is going to make a large difference in how possible this is going to be. 

[Returned]

Really interesting line of thinking! I'm not sure of all of the details, but my thoughts are:

Soulcasting doesn't appear to preserve the details of something's original material, aside from physical shape. As an example, when Jasnah transformed a human into smoke or crystal they weren't living smoke or living crystal (as far as we know, at least). They became what the were cast into, and that happened to be unliving. I'm sure that others can post corrections for me, but Soulcasting seems to actually convert one thing into another and forsake its original properties (again, except for shape in some cases). If that's accurate then a corpse Soulcast into some non-flesh material won't be a corpse any more, so the normal Lifeless elements seem like they wouldn't apply. Or at least wouldn't necessarily.

Soulcasting an object which could easily be made to resemble a humanoid body should make it easier to Awaken afterwards, even if transformed into a harder-to-Awaken substance. It's easier to make a wax figure in a human shape and cast it to tungsten than it is to carve or mold tungsten. So in that sense it should be easier than Awakening a non-human-shaped piece of the same material, but I think that the difficulties with Awakening metal would overwhelm that. Think, but don't really know.

I could easily be mistaken but I think that Soulcasting something which has been Awakened has a real chance of ending its Awakened status. We don't have any examples I can think of to compare with though. It just seems like too much of a cheat to Awaken something and then supercharge it by transforming it into a material which could never have been Awakened with so few Breaths. And that's assuming that the same visualization and Command would translate to the new material, which won't always be a given.

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I want to ask about awakening lifeless that have been soulcast... or creating soulcast lifeless. 

Does the Awakening have to happen pre or post the soulcaster changing the target into the desired material? 

If I want to have a big, heavy, hard lifeless made out of Tungsten: would I need to awaken it and then change it to Tungsten and then infuse it with more breath to make it mobile?  Or would soulcasting a lifeless into Tungsten kill the lifeless and be a waste of breath? 

If I soulcast a corpse into Tungsten and then attempt to awaken it... does it act as a corpse or a thing?  Would it follow the rules of the 9th heightening being needed to awaken metal or because it is a corpse and you are awakening a lifeless with a 1 breath command does it treat it like a corpse and ignore the fact that it is made of metal now?  

I think the order in which it happens is going to make a large difference in how possible this is going to be. 

39 minutes ago, Returned said:

Really interesting line of thinking! I'm not sure of all of the details, but my thoughts are:

Soulcasting doesn't appear to preserve the details of something's original material, aside from physical shape. As an example, when Jasnah transformed a human into smoke or crystal they weren't living smoke or living crystal (as far as we know, at least). They became what the were cast into, and that happened to be unliving. I'm sure that others can post corrections for me, but Soulcasting seems to actually convert one thing into another and forsake its original properties (again, except for shape in some cases). If that's accurate then a corpse Soulcast into some non-flesh material won't be a corpse any more, so the normal Lifeless elements seem like they wouldn't apply. Or at least wouldn't necessarily.

Soulcasting an object which could easily be made to resemble a humanoid body should make it easier to Awaken afterwards, even if transformed into a harder-to-Awaken substance. It's easier to make a wax figure in a human shape and cast it to tungsten than it is to carve or mold tungsten. So in that sense it should be easier than Awakening a non-human-shaped piece of the same material, but I think that the difficulties with Awakening metal would overwhelm that. Think, but don't really know.

I could easily be mistaken but I think that Soulcasting something which has been Awakened has a real chance of ending its Awakened status. We don't have any examples I can think of to compare with though. It just seems like too much of a cheat to Awaken something and then supercharge it by transforming it into a material which could never have been Awakened with so few Breaths. And that's assuming that the same visualization and Command would translate to the new material, which won't always be a given.

So, actually, we do have an answer on the awakening of former corpse; TLDR: it's easier but wouldn't make a lifeless as far as I can tell.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So the lighteyes that get Soulcast into stone, can they be Awakened?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* So… Yes, but their soul is gone. When they get Soulcast into stone it is only the corpse, so yes they could.

Questioner

Would it be a lifeless or a-- Would it be like Awakening something inorganic or would them once being alive help?

Brandon Sanderson

The fact that they were once alive will help. There's a Spiritual Connection that still exists on the Spiritual Realm and that is going to help. But you're not going to get the person back. The fact that it is the exact form of a person is going to be really helpful. It would be a lot easier to Awaken that than it would be to Awaken other stone.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

Spoiler

Questioner

Stone is hard to Awaken partially cause it's never been alive. On Roshar, there are tons of stone Soulcast corpses. Would these be easier? Has Vasher thought of this?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I would say that he has. And yes, they would be easier.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Now, whether or not the awakening would remain functional if you soulcast lifeless is a different story. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

I think the investiture for the awakening would remain, but it would be scrambled and might stop working. Regardless, a one-breath lifeless would probably just turn into a fancy statue; it wouldn't be invested enough to move, just like awakening stone. 

Edited April 2 by Argenti

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Thanks guys. I forgot those WoBs exact phrasing. 

I guess the best bet is still to just coat the lifeless in wax... have them move around a bit to figure out the joints needed, and then soulcast the wax into near seamless armor. 

[Argenti he/him]

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Thanks guys. I forgot those WoBs exact phrasing. 

I guess the best bet is still to just coat the lifeless in wax... have them move around a bit to figure out the joints needed, and then soulcast the wax into near seamless armor. 

And viola! You have kalad's phantom.

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Thanks guys. I forgot those WoBs exact phrasing. 

I guess the best bet is still to just coat the lifeless in wax... have them move around a bit to figure out the joints needed, and then soulcast the wax into near seamless armor. 

22 minutes ago, Argenti said:

And viola! You have kalad's phantom.

Wouldn't a better approximation of Kalad's Phantoms be to:

• Awaken a Lifeless
• Soulcast into stone
• Awaken the stone to allow the lifeless to move
  • This is the same as the D'Denir statues that still have a 1 Breath Awakened skeleton in the center. but can't follow Commands until the stone is Awakened with enough Breath to allow them to act. 

 

[Argenti he/him]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Wouldn't a better approximation of Kalad's Phantoms be to:

• Awaken a Lifeless
• Soulcast into stone
• Awaken the stone to allow the lifeless to move
  • This is the same as the D'Denir statues that still have a 1 Breath Awakened skeleton in the center. but can't follow Commands until the stone is Awakened with enough Breath to allow them to act. 

 

I mean, possibly, but the issue was whether or not the lifeless would still be lifeless. If it's still lifeless, then you can't awaken it further; it's "alive." Just giving it more breath might work, but I'm skeptical. Shoving a bunch of breath into a lifeless with no command is like throwing breath into your scarves without a command. Maybe it will give it the oomph it needs to work, but it also might develop a personality.

Spoiler

TurtletheFlsh

What would happen if you created a Lifeless with more Breath then is necessary? Would they be more or completely human or just a Lifeless that's holding more Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless with more Breath are an interesting situation. It's quite possible for the BREATH to start taking on a personality, much like a Cognitive Shadow, related to the individual. Whether or not it is actually them, though, is a big question. Note, this doesn't always happen. Often, dumping a lot of Breath in them is like sticking it in an inanimate object with no Command.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

If it's no longer lifeless (which I think is likely), then the pseudo soul it had would have the same effect as a soul-cast person; awakening them would be easier, maybe working worse since it was less investigated upon simulcasting, but also better because its breaths stick together. You might have a really good chance if you then Forge the soul cast lifeless to never be soul cast, which would be probably very easy. But at that point, it might just be simpler to Essence Mark the lifeless to make them a super soldier in their former life, which, since they're less invested and more stagnant, would be easier.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

• This is the same as the D'Denir statues that still have a 1 Breath Awakened skeleton in the center. but can't follow Commands until the stone is Awakened with enough Breath to allow them to act. 

It's not a 1 Breath skeleton, it's 50-100 Breaths. Warbreaker ch 46:

Quote

“What about bones?” Vivenna asked.
“They’re strange,” Vasher said. “They take far more Breath to awaken than a body held together with flesh and aren’t as flexible as something like cloth. Still, Breath will stick to them fairly easily, since they were once alive and maintain the form of a living thing.”
“So Idrian stories that talk about skeletal armies aren’t just fabrications?”
He chuckled. “Oh, they are. If you wanted to Awaken a skeleton, you’d have to arrange all the bones together in their correct places. That’s a lot of work for something that will take upwards of fifty or a hundred Breaths to Awaken."

 

[Quantus he/him]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Wouldn't a better approximation of Kalad's Phantoms be to:

• Awaken a Lifeless
• Soulcast into stone
• Awaken the stone to allow the lifeless to move
  • This is the same as the D'Denir statues that still have a 1 Breath Awakened skeleton in the center. but can't follow Commands until the stone is Awakened with enough Breath to allow them to act. 

 

The stone is not Awakened to move. It is crafted with seems at the joints.  The Lifeless inside requires additional breaths to be able to effectively move and fight with all the Stone Armor on the bones.  

 

 

Quote

 

DylanHuebner

I was wondering how the animation of the lifeless statues worked, in regard to the use of Susebron's Breath. If they were lifeless, then vasher wouldn't have been able to take his Breath back out of them, nor would susebron have needed such a great deal of breath to revive them—he just would have needed a password. But if they were simply Awakened, no password would have been necessary to animate the statues, just Breath and Command.

It seems like the statues could be neither lifeless nor awakened. Are they unique, because of the use of bone, or am I missing something? The only other explanation I could think of was that they were lifeless, but Susebron's breath wasn't used to activate the statues, he simply had it passed down from vasher, in addition to the statues. If that's the case(and then I've simply been confusing myself with unnecessary, convoluted logic), why was it necessary to keep the breath safe for all these years?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow, there are a lot of questions in there. If you follow the drafts, I think you can see the evolution of what became of the Lifeless army. Originally I had planned for the statues to simply have been placed there so that you could Awaken them—just in my original concepts, before I started the writing—and then that became the army.

I eventually decided that didn't work for various reasons. Number one, as I developed the magic system, Awakening stone doesn't work very well. You've got to have limberness, you've got to have motion to something for it to actually be stronger. So a soldier made out of cloth would be more useful to you than a soldier made out of stone, if you were just Awakening something. At that point, as I was developing this, I went back to the drawing board and said okay, I need to leave him a whole group of really cool Lifeless as the army. But that had problems in that the ichor would not have stayed good long enough. Plus they already had a pretty big Lifeless army, so what was special about this one? Remember, I'm revising concepts like this as the book is going along. You can see where in the story I could see what needed to be there. So I went back to the drawing board again.

I think the original draft of WARBREAKER you can download off my website has them just as statues, though at the time when I was writing that I already knew it would need to change. I was just sticking to my outline because I needed to have the whole thing complete on the page before I could work with it. A lot of times that's how I do things as a writer—I get the rough draft down, and then I begin to sculpt.

I eventually developed essentially what you've just outlined in the first part, before you started worrying if you were too convoluted. I said, well, what if there's a hybrid? What happens if you Awaken bones? Can you create something? The reason that you can't draw the Breath back from a Lifeless is because the Breath clings to it. If the Lifeless were sentient enough, it could give up its own Breath, but you can't take it, just like you can't take a Breath from a person by force. You have to get them to give it up willingly. So it sticks to the Lifeless. A Lifeless is, let's say, 90% of a sentient being. The Breath doesn't manifest in them, because they aren't alive, yet they're almost there. A stone statue brought to life would be way down on the bottom rung.

Is there something in between? That's the advancement I had Vasher discover—what if we build something out of bone, but then encase it in stone to make it strong, and build it in ways that the bone is held together by the force of the Breaths? That's really what you're getting at there, that you need a lot of Breath, a lot of power, to hold all that stone together. There are seams at the joints. What the Breath is doing is clinging there like magical sinew, and it's holding all of that together.

Vasher left the Phantoms Invested with enough Breath to hold them together but not to move. You needed another big, substantial influx of Breath in order to actually make them have motion, to bring them enough strength to move and that sort of thing. So it's kind of a hybrid.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Argenti said:

I mean, possibly, but the issue was whether or not the lifeless would still be lifeless. If it's still lifeless, then you can't awaken it further; it's "alive." Just giving it more breath might work, but I'm skeptical. Shoving a bunch of breath into a lifeless with no command is like throwing breath into your scarves without a command. Maybe it will give it the oomph it needs to work, but it also might develop a personality.

  Hide contents

TurtletheFlsh

What would happen if you created a Lifeless with more Breath then is necessary? Would they be more or completely human or just a Lifeless that's holding more Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless with more Breath are an interesting situation. It's quite possible for the BREATH to start taking on a personality, much like a Cognitive Shadow, related to the individual. Whether or not it is actually them, though, is a big question. Note, this doesn't always happen. Often, dumping a lot of Breath in them is like sticking it in an inanimate object with no Command.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

If it's no longer lifeless (which I think is likely), then the pseudo soul it had would have the same effect as a soul-cast person; awakening them would be easier, maybe working worse since it was less investigated upon simulcasting, but also better because its breaths stick together. You might have a really good chance if you then Forge the soul cast lifeless to never be soul cast, which would be probably very easy. But at that point, it might just be simpler to Essence Mark the lifeless to make them a super soldier in their former life, which, since they're less invested and more stagnant, would be easier.

I didn't think about potentially forging. 

Can you forge a human who was soulcast into metal to "never have been soulcast" and then turn them lifeless with 1 breath and have it stick the next day?  

How does forging work in that regard?  Would anything that happens while it is in its forged state be lost when it reverts? If you had a broken leg and attempted to forge yourself back before the broken leg and while in that state you tapped a bunch of gold... would your leg be healed when your forging wears off or would you go back to having a broken leg and simply wasted the stored health of a gold mind?  

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The stone is not Awakened to move. It is crafted with seems at the joints.  The Lifeless inside requires additional breaths to be able to effectively move and fight with all the Stone Armor on the bones.  

 

 

 

So basically the breaths act as the muscle and connective tissue holding the mass together and giving it mobility.  

As @alder24 has pointed out in the past armor wearing lifeless may be better than the phantoms because they have the muscle mass and connective tissue to power themselves and wear the armor. 

Bones can't move on their own they need breath to give them mobility. 

However, I am curious if breath could be infused into the lifeless in a way to keep it retrievable to allow them the strength to move around faster and be stronger in a suit of heavy heavy armor... 

Perhaps having cloth and or rope... or even leather holding joints of a suit of armor together being awakened to give it strength would do this better... 

Having breath be retrievable is a big deal when thinking about a pet class archetype.... which I really view the awakener as being.  Buffing themselves at a higher cost but able to bring forth a bunch of pets and items that, when used together, would really dominate the action economy of a scene. 

 

[Treamayne]

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's not a 1 Breath skeleton, it's 50-100 Breaths.

I did not say that the D'Denir were 1 Breath lifeless (though they probably used the same Command, and just needed more breath for it to work due to the lack of flesh), I posited that the process would be to make a 1 Breath Lifeless, then soulcast it. Thank you for the reference though. 

26 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The stone is not Awakened to move. It is crafted with seems at the joints.  The Lifeless inside requires additional breaths to be able to effectively move and fight with all the Stone Armor on the bones.  

Right - investing the Lifeless so that it can move the stone - nearly the same thing I said (in more words). Also (Annotations to Warbreaker):

Spoiler

Vivenna and Vasher Talk about What to Do

One of the biggest revisions to the ending was what to do with the D’Denir. When first drafting the book, I wasn’t 100% sure on what Awakening could and couldn’t do. I figured that Vasher could have Commands that would Awaken statues, and I wrote the ending that way.

Unfortunately, through revising and developing the story, this ended up not being viable. I was also disappointed in how poorly telegraphed the use of the statues ultimately ended up being. So in revisions, I switched it to make them Lifeless created from bones, something special that Vasher came up with during the Manywar. I then added the concept of Kalad’s Phantoms as a mystery in the book, so that readers would be expecting that army to show up by the ending. I think this mitigates the surprise somewhat.

Because you are Awakening the entire thing (with a Cognitive Identity of being "one hybrid Lifeless") you are investing the Lifeless and stone to move (thanks to the joints mentioned in your WoB) which is why that breath can also be partially recovered - because it is not the primary Awakening that makes the core artificial soul of the Lifeless. But you have a good point, if the breaths are not enough to make the joints supple enough to move, you would liky have to "edit" the joints in the Soulcast Lifeless Statue. . . 

17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If you had a broken leg and attempted to forge yourself back before the broken leg and while in that state you tapped a bunch of gold... would your leg be healed when your forging wears off or would you go back to having a broken leg and simply wasted the stored health of a gold mind?  

Resealing is a type of Forgery that allows healing done in the process to remain after the Resealing stamp has expired. So, it would seem that at least some changes not directly due to the stamp can remain. Maybe.

Edited April 2 by Treamayne
Clarity

[Argenti he/him]

6 hours ago, Argenti said:

And viola! You have kalad's phantom.

16 hours ago, Argenti said:

So, actually, we do have an answer on the awakening of former corpse; TLDR: it's easier but wouldn't make a lifeless as far as I can tell.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So the lighteyes that get Soulcast into stone, can they be Awakened?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* So… Yes, but their soul is gone. When they get Soulcast into stone it is only the corpse, so yes they could.

Questioner

Would it be a lifeless or a-- Would it be like Awakening something inorganic or would them once being alive help?

Brandon Sanderson

The fact that they were once alive will help. There's a Spiritual Connection that still exists on the Spiritual Realm and that is going to help. But you're not going to get the person back. The fact that it is the exact form of a person is going to be really helpful. It would be a lot easier to Awaken that than it would be to Awaken other stone.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Stone is hard to Awaken partially cause it's never been alive. On Roshar, there are tons of stone Soulcast corpses. Would these be easier? Has Vasher thought of this?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I would say that he has. And yes, they would be easier.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Now, whether or not the awakening would remain functional if you soulcast lifeless is a different story. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

I think the investiture for the awakening would remain, but it would be scrambled and might stop working. Regardless, a one-breath lifeless would probably just turn into a fancy statue; it wouldn't be invested enough to move, just like awakening stone. 

Who ever repped these unrep these! I need 666  Torturer of heralds. 

Edited April 2 by Argenti

[Returned]

3 hours ago, Argenti said:

Who ever repped these unrep these! I need 666  Torturer of heralds. 

I de-upvoted one, but it seems that wasn't enough.