CtrlAltDepressed Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 Hello friends WARNING: FULL COSMERE SPOILERS AHEAD Following the reading of the newest secret project, there's one question that (currently) is the most exciting to me personally. There USED to be a perpendicularity on Dhatri. This has so many implications. I'm just going to go through my thought process, please tell me where your opinion differs or alternative theories. The first question here is, does that mean a shard was in residence on Dhatri? I think not. I think this is evidence that a significant aether presence can create a perpendicularity just like any other massive amount of pooled investiture, and that a shard was not in residence here. If we follow that assumption, the next logical assumption is that the aether is dead - especially since we see that Aditil's aether is dead. I think this is implying that the aether was eradicated on Dhatri, and that it happened fairly recently (since it is clear Aditil's aether was not always dead). This is huge to me. In my head, this is definitive proof that the aethers are not anywhere close to as powerful as even one shard. A vessel can be killed, and a shard splintered, but that does not completely negate the magic system as the Dhatri scenario is presenting. Spoiler Even though Honor is dead, surgebinding and oaths still work, the stormfather still dispenses stormlight, and others are still bound by oaths they made with Honor. A shard could never be fully destroyed like this, and its quite shocking that it can happen to the aether if all of my assumptions are correct. This would indicate that the aethers are mostly physical while shards are mostly spiritual. What I mean by that is shards cannot ever be truly destroyed because they exist in the spiritual realm, where time and space are one. However, for the aether to be destroyed they must persist as a physical thing, rather than a physical manifestation of something spiritual (like god metals). Thoughts? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 he/him Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 5 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: There USED to be a perpendicularity on Dhatri. This has so many implications. I'm just going to go through my thought process, please tell me where your opinion differs or alternative theories. The first question here is, does that mean a shard was in residence on Dhatri? I think not. I think this is evidence that a significant aether presence can create a perpendicularity just like any other massive amount of pooled investiture, and that a shard was not in residence here. We must assume that many worlds form perpendicularities just as a part of the natural environment without any special intervention. Yes, a Shard residing on a planet guarantees that a perpendicularity will form, but that's it. Just as many worlds must have very high levels of Investiture without a Shard being present. (Sunlit Man) Spoiler Just consider the number of worlds Sigzil has been on The Ghostbloods were in contact with a large number of worlds. The economy described in SP#5 will not work with perpendicularities confined to worlds with Shards or Aethers. 5 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If we follow that assumption, the next logical assumption is that the aether is dead - especially since we see that Aditil's aether is dead. I think this is implying that the aether was eradicated on Dhatri, and that it happened fairly recently (since it is clear Aditil's aether was not always dead). That seems a bit lke jumping to conclusions. Spores can die without repercussions to the core aether. Why couldn't a full symbiont? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: We must assume that many worlds form perpendicularities just as a part of the natural environment without any special intervention. Yes, a Shard residing on a planet guarantees that a perpendicularity will form, but that's it. Just as many worlds must have very high levels of Investiture without a Shard being present. (Sunlit Man) Uhhhh no? Spoiler Nomad was Skipping to other worlds because he was once a Dawnshard. He could use lots of Investiture to instantly teleport to another random world, even if they have no Perpendicularity, and Canticle has no Perpendicularity. First of the Sun has a Perpendicularity even without a Shard in residence but that's an exception, Threnody has temporary and unstable Perpendicularities that are of a morbid origin, they also don't have a Shard in residence but they do have a 'chunk' of Ambition. Lumar doesn't have one at all. Most worlds are not going to have a Perpendicularity, you need the presence of a Shard or at least a powerful Splinter. 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The Ghostbloods were in contact with a large number of worlds. That presumably have Perpendicularities, Bjendal had one, Sel has one, Dhatri had one. Mythos probably also had one. There is nothing to suggest they were going to worlds without one as of Mistborn Era 2. 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The economy described in SP#5 will not work with perpendicularities confined to worlds with Shards or Aethers. They have FTL spaceships, they can go to other worlds via the Physical Realm. It just costs a whole lot for that method for any worldhoppers that aren't part of the world that invented them. We're seeing this economy from the unprivileged perspective. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 19 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: There USED to be a perpendicularity on Dhatri. This has so many implications. I'm just going to go through my thought process, please tell me where your opinion differs or alternative theories. Well, we've already seen three perpendicularities that were destroyed - all on Scadrial, the Well of Ascension, Ruin's perpendicularity in the Pits of Hathsin and the Autonomy's perpendicularity under Bilming. It's not that unique, stuff can happen. They aren't permanent. Dhatri is a home world of Prasanva, which was invaded by the Dark Aether, making it inhospitable for Aetherbound. That's definitely related. The fact that this force was likely able to kill an Aether is a big deal in my opinion, far greater than the disappearing perpendicularity that someone could have drunk for example. 19 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: This is huge to me. In my head, this is definitive proof that the aethers are not anywhere close to as powerful as even one shard. A vessel can be killed, and a shard splintered, but that does not completely negate the magic system as the Dhatri scenario is presenting. The way of accessing powers are vastly different between a Shard and an Aether. An Aetherbound is in a symbiotic bond with their Aether, accessing the power of a Shard you have many ways, depending on the magic. Honor isn't responsible for granting powers to people directly - spren are. Killing a spren results in the same thing as killing an Aether, losing the access to the power - Teft was left powerless after Phendorana was killed. The nature of Knight Radiants is similar to that of Aetherbound, as they both form a symbiotic relationship with a being that gives them powers. The difference here is with their reach, a Radiant will lose their powers if they got separated from their spren on a relatively short scale, while an Aether is basically omnipresent (just like Shards are) - TwinSoul remained in contact with Silajana even on another planet. The fact that an Aether can communicate and grant powers to someone on the other side of Cosmere means they are significantly invested. Are they equally invested in Shards? Debatable of course, Aethers claim they are as a collective. But there are many Aethers, more than the number of Shards - 12 alone on Lumar, 12 on Dhatri (one dead now), many others on other planets as they've spread across Cosmere. So while individually they seem to be weaker than a Shard, but still very powerful, collectively they might be able to rival one or all Shards in raw power (though they might be far more limited in using that power than a Shard is). Spoiler Questioner Obviously the Shards are the top dogs in terms of power and stuff, but Hoid seems to be his own level of dangerous. Are there any other characters as sort of rivals to his ambition or power? Brandon Sanderson Depends on how you want to express it. Some of the dragons from Yolen are as old and are very crafty. You could argue that the aethers, the actual core aethers, are as ancient and potentially powerful. I wouldn't put them by raw power at Shard level, but they would claim that they are. Depends on what you would think there. There are some other individuals of a similar, not as dangerous as Hoid, but on a similar level. Been around for thousands of years, investigated a lot of the magics, and these sorts of things. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Spoiler Bumtown1 Is Adonalsium a unique being or are—were—there others? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! The aethers would say that there were lots. That there's like a bunch of aethers and Adonalsium. That they were co-equals. The aethers would say there were lots of them. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 20 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: A shard could never be fully destroyed like this, and its quite shocking that it can happen to the aether if all of my assumptions are correct. Investiture, just like energy can't be destroyed, it can only change state. Shards can die like Aethers can and that dead Aether still left a broken pieces on an Aetherbound's body - the Aether isn't entirely gone, it's dead, but something was probably left behind (that's why , just like a Splintered Shard is dead, but not entirely gone, leaving behind a Splintered pieces. The Aether is killed, their body and essence was not destroyed, it was just broken. 20 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: This would indicate that the aethers are mostly physical while shards are mostly spiritual. One just needs to look at Threnody to see how devastating a Splintering of a Shard can be to people in the Physical Realm. Or Sel to see how it affected the Cognitive Realm. But it's true, Aethers have a Physical body, that's what Aetherbound grows, that's what resides on Lumar's moons. But they still have a very significant presence in the Spiritual Realm, because of their ability to stay in contact with their Aetherbounds all across Cosmere. Shard's have a physical body as well. Spoiler LewsTherinTelescope Are the aethers the moons? Or just on the moons? Brandon Sanderson On the moons, good question. They are on the moons. The moons are not 100% aether. Tress Spoiler Stream (March 31, 2023) 20 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: What I mean by that is shards cannot ever be truly destroyed because they exist in the spiritual realm, where time and space are one. However, for the aether to be destroyed they must persist as a physical thing, rather than a physical manifestation of something spiritual (like god metals). Nothing in Cosmere can be truly destroyed. A soul-corpse is always left in the Spiritual Realm. Even people can be brought back no matter the state of their physical bodies - Yumi just made a body for herself out of raw investiture. Shards as a being are dead and gone after the Splintering. I do want to know if a killed Aether can be restored, just like a Splintered Shard can be reassembled. I don't agree that Aether must be mostly physical because they were destroyed - Spren can be "destroyed" too and they aren't "mostly" physical. I do agree that Aethers have a significant physical presence and do have a physical body, as seen on Lumar, or with Aetherbounds. Shards can be killed, their power Splintered and dragged out of the Spiritual Realm - when you "destroy" an Aether something is left behind, their power, their essence, their investiture. That's because laws of thermodynamics work in Cosmere, investiture can't be destroyed, it can only change states. A being can be killed - a Shard or an Aether die in the same way - but it leaves something behind, a dead body and raw investiture. But it can't be destroyed. And we saw that dead body of an Aether on Aditil. I wonder what you can do with it, I want to know if a killed Aether can be restored, just like a Splintered Shard can be reassembled. Spoiler Argent Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture? Brandon Sanderson Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm. Oversleep Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)? Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017) Spoiler Questioner Does Nightblood annihilate Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Investiture cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change forms. But, anything more than that is a RAFO. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Spoiler James Clifford Science question! Brandon Sanderson Ohh science. Is it real science, or fake science? Adam Horne It is Brandon science. Brandon Sanderson Fake science! James Clifford With the discovery of anti-Investiture in Rhythm of War, would the correct form of anti-Investiture be usable to clear up the mess in the Sel Cognitive Realm. If so, would this completely destroy a splintered Shard? Brandon Sanderson *laughs, coughs, and is otherwise stunned* That would not be a good idea. So why would that not be a good idea? So no, this would not clear up the problem. The problem that's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Sel is that a bunch of Investiture that should be in the Spiritual Realm has been packed into the Cognitive Realm instead, through a very weird circumstance of events. If you were to introduce a bunch of anti-Investiture of the right type there, you would just generate an explosion that would be a very bad thing. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, Investiture can't be either, so it's actually changing forms. It's going from Investiture into energy! Which you know, does not leave the system. So the investiture would eventually make its way back around, you can't destroy anything in the Cosmere, just like you can't destroy anything in our universe. But you can make it change forms. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware. It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 Is there a WoB that Aditil's core Aether was killed, rather than that something happened to her personal bud of it? Her behaviour seemed to me more consistent with private misfortune than with a huge calamity on her home planet that death of an Aether should have caused. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted March 29 Author Report Share Posted March 29 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Is there a WoB that Aditil's core Aether was killed, rather than that something happened to her personal bud of it? Her behaviour seemed to me more consistent with private misfortune than with a huge calamity on her home planet that death of an Aether should have caused. No, this was an assumption on my part. I think I presented my line of thinking going the wrong way. my chain of assumptions: Perpendicularity is from the aether presence > Perpendicularity is gone now > Core aether dying caused perp to disappear > ALSO resulted in Aditil's personal aether dying I was not assuming that the worlds aether is dead because Aditils is dead, more that I assume Aditils is dead because the worlds aether was killed. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Dhatri is a home world of Prasanva, which was invaded by the Dark Aether, making it inhospitable for Aetherbound. That's definitely related. The fact that this force was likely able to kill an Aether is a big deal in my opinion, far greater than the disappearing perpendicularity that someone could have drunk for example. Agreed - though I assumed those events are related. Inhospitable for aetherbound - do you mean that the aethers can no longer survive but their hosts can? Or is Aditil going into danger shes not aware of? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: 12 alone on Lumar, 12 on Dhatri (one dead now), many others on other planets as they've spread across Cosmere. So while individually they seem to be weaker than a Shard, but still very powerful, collectively they might be able to rival one or all Shards in raw power (though they might be far more limited in using that power than a Shard is). These are the same 12 core aethers, no? My understanding of Lumar is that these are the same 12 core aethers, but they are unconnected to the hive mind. Like the pink crystal in Tress is the same as TwinSoul's pink crystal, just unconnected to Silajana. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: I don't agree that Aether must be mostly physical because they were destroyed - Spren can be "destroyed" too and they aren't "mostly" physical. I do agree that Aethers have a significant physical presence and do have a physical body, as seen on Lumar, or with Aetherbounds. Shards can be killed, their power Splintered and dragged out of the Spiritual Realm - when you "destroy" an Aether something is left behind, their power, their essence, their investiture. That's because laws of thermodynamics work in Cosmere, investiture can't be destroyed, it can only change states. A being can be killed - a Shard or an Aether die in the same way - but it leaves something behind, a dead body and raw investiture. But it can't be destroyed. And we saw that dead body of an Aether on Aditil. I wonder what you can do with it, I want to know if a killed Aether can be restored, just like a Splintered Shard can be reassembled. What I meant by mostly physical: Aethers are a physical thing with a Spiritual component, while Shards are Spiritual things with physical components. If there was a venn diagram of physical vs spiritual investiture aethers would be on the physical side and shards on the spiritual, but theres obviously going to be some overlap there. We have been told that physically in the spiritual realm all of the shards are pushing up against each other, so im not sure how the aethers could have their own section of that. What I imagined with them up against each other is like if you put water balloons into a bucket. They fill every available spiritual location, but are still seperate. (Now that I think about it Aethers dont have to be Spiritual at all. Their distance connection could easily be explained as a cognitive Connection instead of Spiritual. I think they are spiritual in some aspects but I realized they dont have to be. ) 3 hours ago, alder24 said: One just needs to look at Threnody to see how devastating a Splintering of a Shard can be to people in the Physical Realm. Or Sel to see how it affected the Cognitive Realm. But it's true, Aethers have a Physical body, that's what Aetherbound grows, that's what resides on Lumar's moons. But they still have a very significant presence in the Spiritual Realm, because of their ability to stay in contact with their Aetherbounds all across Cosmere. Shard's have a physical body as well. Right, but those effects are spiritual effects bleeding through to the physical. Threnody in particular is a spiritual disease / corruption that has a physical representation (shades), but still represents a spiritual phenomenon. Sel is slightly different but is still not a physical thing. Its a cognitive event that has effects on the physical. In contrast, the Aethers seem to be physical events that have spiritual effects. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: I don't agree that Aether must be mostly physical because they were destroyed - Spren can be "destroyed" too and they aren't "mostly" physical. I do agree that Aethers have a significant physical presence and do have a physical body, as seen on Lumar, or with Aetherbounds. Shards can be killed, their power Splintered and dragged out of the Spiritual Realm - when you "destroy" an Aether something is left behind, their power, their essence, their investiture. That's because laws of thermodynamics work in Cosmere, investiture can't be destroyed, it can only change states. A being can be killed - a Shard or an Aether die in the same way - but it leaves something behind, a dead body and raw investiture. But it can't be destroyed. And we saw that dead body of an Aether on Aditil. I wonder what you can do with it, I want to know if a killed Aether can be restored, just like a Splintered Shard can be reassembled. I wouldn't say that a splintering is actually killing the Shard. The vessel, absolutely, but the Shard itself cannot actually be destroyed. Yes, I know, Investiture cannot be created or destroyed, but if we look past the pedanticness, things can absolutely be destroyed. Yes, there is still a spiritual imprint of Teft, but by my definition Teft was destroyed. Especially since there is a wob (that i cant find) that states that once someone's soul has reached the beyond they cannot ever be brought back from that. Which is pretty definitively destroying Teft. The energy that made up Teft is still there but that isn't Teft any more than the Stormlight in a gem is Teft. Honor is dead - completely splintered. However, Stormlight still powers Surgebinding. This is what I was getting at with shards dying not removing the magic system. In addition, that Stormlight is still restricted by Honor's intent - even though the Shard is 'dead'. My assumption with Aditil is that her aether died because the worlds aether died, not that she made a personal choice that resulted in the death. If it was her decision that resulted in its death, then yes, it is basically the same thing as the Radiant bond - loss of powers. However if her aether died because her worlds aether died, then that absolutely points to the Aethers being much less powerful than a Shard. Honors death did not break the Radiants bonds - they had to choose that themselves. I am also very interested in what happens with a dead Aether. Would it look for a new hive mind? Or would killing Silajana kill the entire aether? Its interesting that the Shards are referred to in their 'formal' name (Endowment, Honor, Odium, etc) vs their personal name (Edgli, Tanavast, Rayse) while the Aethers are almost exclusively referred to in their personal name (Silajana). Im not sure what that means but its interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 (edited) 4 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Agreed - though I assumed those events are related. Inhospitable for aetherbound - do you mean that the aethers can no longer survive but their hosts can? Or is Aditil going into danger shes not aware of? Aetherbounds can no longer survive but their Aether can - Silajana is from Dhatri. Aditil is no longer an Aetherbound so she should be fine. What this inhospitality means and how it affects both an Aetherbound and their Aether is another question. Could Aditil expose her Aether to a deadly strike by bonding them? 4 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: These are the same 12 core aethers, no? My understanding of Lumar is that these are the same 12 core aethers, but they are unconnected to the hive mind. Like the pink crystal in Tress is the same as TwinSoul's pink crystal, just unconnected to Silajana. They are the same Aethers as they have the same sets of elements, but they are separate beings, different. Aethers don't have a hive mind. So yes, the roseite crystal is the same, but it came from two separate entities. Lumar's roseite Aether is a different entity from the Dhatri's roseite Aether, but they both are a roseite Aether - that's how I view it. Spoiler Lego Mistborn Aethers in Tress seem to take over their hosts aggressively, probably without the host's permission, whereas we see in The Lost Metal with TwinSoul it's more willing. Is this related—and how—to the corruption of aethers on Lumar? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it is related. You have the main aether planet, which we just named but I can't... so Kalyani named it for me. Well, Kalyani and Rahul. I'm relying on them a lot for this planet, and they actually just sent me a five-thousand-word world guide for it. [...] They could tell us how to pronounce it. "Dhatri" might be how it is? Regardless. On the main planet. So the idea here is they're very formalized, how you interact with the aethers. But on some other planets (not just Lumar), aethers have gone that are not connected to the main set of them on the main planet, and what's going on on Lumar is directly related to how that separation happened. So that answer is a long-winded yes. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 20, 2023) Spoiler simonthekillerewok How much have the aethers changed since Aether of Night? Brandon Sanderson The big change I made to the aethers, other than adding this other world... A couple things going on with the aethers. First off, when you finally meet people who bear the aethers (which we're calling aetherbound, currently, and I like that term), you will find that, in order to differentiate them from things like seons and things like spren bonds and things like that, I've decided that one core aether bonds a lot of people, and it's one entity that you are all bonding with. So, if you meet five aetherbound who have bound to the Verdant aether, they are all bound to the same individual, at least on the core aether world. And that just adds a different nuance to it. There is lore and worldbuilding that is different that I will leave. There's a lot that's the same; there's a lot that's different that I'll leave to you to discover. I am working quite a bit on this planet for future projects (which, no, I haven't secretly been writing yet). But that's the big change. And the other change is that I decided that aethers would be able to... I would have different things happening with them, different strains. In their own lore, they were not... the aethers themselves don't believe they were created by Adonalsium. And so they're, like, a different sort of thing, a different entity, so to speak. And this goes back, even, to way back when I tried to write them into Liar of Partinel, them predating things like the Shattering and what not, and it feels right for how I want to treat them. Those are a few little tweaks that you will eventually get. But the basic mechanics of how they work is the same as they worked in Aether of Night. I think that one of the things that really worked in Aether of Night was the mechanics of the aethers. I thought they had a lot of interesting storytelling play, I thought that they did different things than some of the other magics that I was writing did. And they have remained solidly a part of my brain for how the Cosmere will proceed. And that's why you see Mraize having a chunk of an aether and things like that in his trophy case. simonthekillerewok We know there are multiple planets with aethers, so do both of these worlds exist simultaneously? Or is this one an evolution of The Aether of Night's Vaeria? Brandon Sanderson They do both exist simultaneously; this one came from that one. The answer to both is "yes." Secret Project #1 Reveal and Livestream (March 8, 2022) "at least on the core aether world" which means Aethers on other worlds are separate entities from the one on Dhatri. 4 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: What I meant by mostly physical: Aethers are a physical thing with a Spiritual component, while Shards are Spiritual things with physical components. I agree. 4 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: (Now that I think about it Aethers dont have to be Spiritual at all. Their distance connection could easily be explained as a cognitive Connection instead of Spiritual. I think they are spiritual in some aspects but I realized they dont have to be. ) No it can't be - CR is location dependent, distance matters there. It would take years for Silajana to answer Prasanva from another planet. They can communicate instantly, that means it goes through SR. Plus Lumar's Aethers transfer water from the planet to themselves via Luhal Bond, which is spiritual. 4 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I wouldn't say that a splintering is actually killing the Shard. The vessel, absolutely, but the Shard itself cannot actually be destroyed. Yes, I know, Investiture cannot be created or destroyed, but if we look past the pedanticness, things can absolutely be destroyed. Yes, there is still a spiritual imprint of Teft, but by my definition Teft was destroyed. Especially since there is a wob (that i cant find) that states that once someone's soul has reached the beyond they cannot ever be brought back from that. Which is pretty definitively destroying Teft. The energy that made up Teft is still there but that isn't Teft any more than the Stormlight in a gem is Teft. Honor is dead - completely splintered. However, Stormlight still powers Surgebinding. This is what I was getting at with shards dying not removing the magic system. In addition, that Stormlight is still restricted by Honor's intent - even though the Shard is 'dead'. A Shard is a combination of both the mind and the power. The mind can be killed - the Vessel - and the power ripped to pieces - the Splintering - but the power can't be destroyed. The same applies to all things to be fair. A soul and a spiritweb are two different things. A spiritweb is measurable, existing in SR, a soul is something unknown, unmeasurable, which passes to the Beyond, which is also unknown. We don't know and won't know if souls or the Beyond exist in Cosmere. But the spiritweb stays in SR even after death. You can revive a body, so I'm quite sure you can revive a dead spiritweb too. So yes, Teft's spiritweb is still there in SR and it's not just energy. Both terms are used interchangeably and in this case this is wrong, because a spiritweb doesn't go to the Beyond. Spoiler dark-winter-knight What is the difference between a person's Spiritweb and their spiritual DNA? Is there a difference? Brandon Sanderson Soul, generally used in the cosmere, is a spiritual or philosophical term. It refers to the part of a person that continues to exist after death, or to the "being" of the person in a philosophical term. A Spiritweb is a measurable, quantifiable thing in the cosmere. (Granted, it's not easy to do either to one, but it can be done.) It is a scientific term, though because the cosmere hasn't reached modern scientific understandings yet, there is a lot of overlap between science, philosophy, and spirituality. This way, acknowledging that a person has a Spiritweb does not require an atheist/humanist to affirm religious ideas or concepts--like acknowledging that the Vessels/Shards exist does not require also affirming that a capital G God exists. The separation of the two is necessary to allow people like Jasnah to not be undermined by the text. It wouldn't be right of me to work for having representatives of viewpoints contrary to my own if the very foundation of the magic systems and physics proved them wrong. So, in short, you can measure a Spiritweb. Whether a person actually has a soul or not (even in the cosmere) is subject to your own personal philosophy on the idea. Even ghosts and other persisting personalities after death, like certain individuals who shall remain unnamed, have a very real and rational magic system explanation for their existence. aravar27 Is a Cognitive Shadow essentially Investiture filling in the molded pattern of a Spiritweb to the point where it resembles the initial person? I'm interested in the implications with respect to personal identity--the "soul" would be one of the competing answers for the question "what am I," but some argue for psychological continuity and others for biological continuity. A Cognitive Shadow seems like it might better fit the Psychological Criterion, since it seems like Investiture replaces the biological body as the source of living and experiencing things. Brandon Sanderson You're getting into things that are subject to debate among people in the cosmere. Most shadows would insist that they're the same person. Others would dispute this, saying they're essentially a spren--a bit of the power that came alive like you said, taking on the personality of the person when the person themselves died. BipedSnowman Like uploading a brain to a computer. Made of Investiture. Brandon Sanderson A fitting analogy. Aurora_Fatalis Does it matter what kind of power it was that filled the gaps? Like, if you were a normal human and made a Cognitive Shadow fueled by AonDor, would you be more able to "possess" a modern computer than if you were made a Cognitive Shadow by - say - Odium? Brandon Sanderson This can matter. Shades from Threnody, for example, work differently from Returned, who are different from Heralds. But all are Shadows. General Reddit 2019 (Nov. 27, 2019) 4 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: My assumption with Aditil is that her aether died because the worlds aether died, not that she made a personal choice that resulted in the death. If it was her decision that resulted in its death, then yes, it is basically the same thing as the Radiant bond - loss of powers. Ok, I think we have a different view of what an Aether is. For me an Aether is both an entity and an essence - which is the body of that entity. When Prasanva grows an Aether, he actually grows the body of Silajana - Silajana can sense things through that body. In my understanding an Aetherbound can't have a dead symbiote without the core Aether-entity being dead. It may be possible for an Aetherbound to break the bond and that might kill the body of their core-Aether, without killing the entity, but I wouldn't call that their "symbiote is dead" as the entity is still alive. So I view this statement from the reading as the core Aether, the actual entity is dead, which resulted in broken Aether-essence on Aditil's body. TLM ch 44: Quote “What do you see?” Moonlight whispered. “I don’t see anything,” he said. “But Silajana? Well, he senses a small room cluttered with shelves and small objects. No one is inside, and the wall to the right of the window bears no shelving.” 4 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: However if her aether died because her worlds aether died, then that absolutely points to the Aethers being much less powerful than a Shard. Honors death did not break the Radiants bonds - they had to choose that themselves. But Honor doesn't give them power directly, does he? Aethers do that, the entity is more important then raw power in their case. A Shardic magic system isn't directly created by Shards, it's a natural manifestation of their power in the physical realm. Aethers form a symbiotic bond, they grant power directly to their Aetherbound - without them, the power can't be given. In my opinion those two things aren't comparable. Like Aditil can't connect to her Aether because they're dead, but Rosharans can't connect to Honor as well because he's dead - they connect to the Stormfather instead who was set up as Honor's replacement and Honor's CR, he accepts Radiants Ideals now. Cultivation still is the one that accepts Ideals from her half of Orders - Willshapers for example. Radiants can't have power without being connected to a living entity - a spren, just like Aetherbound can't have powers without being connected to a living entity - an Aether. So no, I don't agree that the entire magic system is gone after Aditil's Aether died - Aetherbounding still exists after all, you just can't connect to that Aether because you need a conscious agreement. Luhel Bond isn't gone. But just like Nahel Bond is broken once one side of agreement dies, Luhal Bond is broken when an Aether dies - but the magic system is not gone. Comparing an entire magic system of Surgebinding to an individual Aetherbound isn't valid. 4 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Its interesting that the Shards are referred to in their 'formal' name (Endowment, Honor, Odium, etc) vs their personal name (Edgli, Tanavast, Rayse) while the Aethers are almost exclusively referred to in their personal name (Silajana). Im not sure what that means but its interesting. Shards are powers with a mind, Aethers are just beings, they aren't like Shards. They are independent from Adonalsium thus those rules don't apply to them. On 3/28/2024 at 7:15 PM, CtrlAltDepressed said: However, for the aether to be destroyed they must persist as a physical thing, rather than a physical manifestation of something spiritual (like god metals). Oh, I just remembered this WoB, Aethers are a physical manifestation of investiture, the essence is a kind of god metal. It's investiture in a physical form (duh, it reacts to base metals): Spoiler Overlord Jebus All the physical manifestations--solid physical manifestations we've seen of Investiture has been metallic. It's been atium, lerasium, Shardblades. Is that just a coincidence? Brandon Sanderson No, it's intentional. Overlord Jebus It's intentional so we're not going to see Investiture wood or Investiture plastic? Brandon Sanderson Right, I mean technically, like, what do you call the aethers? Those are not metal. But I do it as metal intentionally. Questioner They could be a metal with very low boiling point. Brandon Sanderson *sarcastically* Yes, the vine ones are-- Overlord Jebus Well we've had liquid, we've had gas, the solids all seem to be metallic, so. Brandon Sanderson That is intentional, it's just one of those little laws of the cosmere, that's not meant to mean anything Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) Edited March 29 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 he/him Posted March 31 Report Share Posted March 31 On 3/29/2024 at 4:38 AM, JustQuestin2004 said: Most worlds are not going to have a Perpendicularity, you need the presence of a Shard or at least a powerful Splinter. That presumably have Perpendicularities, Bjendal had one, Sel has one, Dhatri had one. Mythos probably also had one. There is nothing to suggest they were going to worlds without one as of Mistborn Era 2. They have FTL spaceships, they can go to other worlds via the Physical Realm. It just costs a whole lot for that method for any worldhoppers that aren't part of the world that invented them. We're seeing this economy from the unprivileged perspective. I am sorry, but that does not work purely numerically. There are at most 12 systems with Shards in residence. Shadesmar is still their primary means of trade. These numbers preclude perpendicularities to be mostly limited to worlds with Shards. (Sunlit Man) Spoiler The Cosmere must have hundreds if not thousands of worlds. Otherwise escaping by skipping to a random world would not work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 31 Report Share Posted March 31 (edited) On 3/31/2024 at 11:05 AM, Oltux72 said: I am sorry, but that does not work purely numerically. There are at most 12 systems with Shards in residence. Shadesmar is still their primary means of trade. These numbers preclude perpendicularities to be mostly limited to worlds with Shards. (Sunlit Man) Hide contents The Cosmere must have hundreds if not thousands of worlds. Otherwise escaping by skipping to a random world would not work. I was going to agree with you, but I looked at some WoBs and AU and I have to say you're wrong. Yes, perpendicularities happen naturally on worlds with no Shard. But this isn't something common. Usually perpendicularities are a sign of a Shardic presence. That's why the First of the Sun is unique as there is no Shard there, but a perpendicularity still appeared. Arcanum Unbounded the Drominad system essay: Quote In general, perpendicularities are created by the presence of a Shard on the planet. [...] The existence of a perpendicularity (which often take the form of pools of concentrated power on the Physical Realm) on a planet is a hallmark of a Shard’s presence. This is what makes First of the Sun so interesting. [...] All four of these planets have water as a dominant feature. And one of them, the first planet, has a perpendicularity. I have not been able to discover why, or how, this perpendicularity exists. There is certainly no Shard residing in the system. I cannot say what is happening, only that this feature must hint at things that occurred in the past of the planet. Yes, Patji is an Avatar of Autonomy, but Autonomy didn't invest in the First of the Sun, she used investiture present there from before the Shattering. A world without any Shard has enough investiture on it to form a perpendicularity, but something needs to be done with it first. Yolen also has a perpendicularity. Threnody doesn't but the way to access it is specifically related to Ambition being Splintered nearby. Even though there is a perpendicularity on the First of the Sun, there is no trade happening between realms because of how dangerous Patji is. Not every place in Cosmere has to be connected via trade routes. Silverlight is the main hub in Shadesmar, there are probably other places in CR like that, even on planets without a perpendicularity. But trade seems to be mostly limited to major Shardworlds. What I mean by this is that trade in Shadesmar doesn't have to go from one planet to another, it can go from one location in CR to another in CR, some of those are on a planet - but Silverlight is a prime example that PR isn't needed for trade in Shadesmar. There are locations in Emberdark of interest, some of those can be connected via trade too and as technology advances, more of those locations would be connected via spaceships, locations that are inaccessible from PR. Spoiler Questioner The "ember" part of the emberdark? Brandon Sanderson The idea for "emberdark" is: there is this vast darkness out there, but there are points out there of interest, and dim light. And they know there's a lot still out there. It's not just complete blackness, but it's mostly blackness, and that's what that is supposed to imply. Secret Project #5 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2024) Most humans originated from Yolen, they've traveled across Cosmere to settle on different planets. So your way of thinking is correct - there had to be perpendicularities there to allow them to enter the PR of those planets. But people can travel between planets without perpendicularities - they can make their own. That's how Ashynites migrated to Roshar, they've created their own perpendicularity. A large concentration of investiture will pierce three realms, creating a gateway. SA5 reading spoilers: Spoiler Iriali moved out of Roshar using perpendicularities created by Cusicesh for example. TSM spoilers: Spoiler Nomad said to Scadrians that he arrived on Canticle via a spontaneous perpendicularity and that was enough of an explanation for them. This suggests things like that, while rare, still happen in Cosmere. TSM ch 44: Quote “How did you get onto this planet?” the woman asked. “I came via Shadesmar,” he said. “There’s no perpendicularity here.” “Got shoved through by a temporary one,” he lied. “I was traveling this way but didn’t intend to stop. Now I’m stuck. It was the strangest thing. Don’t know if I can even explain it.” “There are strange events on this planet,” the woman said There are around fifty to one hundred stars in Cosmere, systems like Roshar or Drominad with more than one inhabited planet are very uncommon, so it seems like there are at most 100 inhabited planets in Cosmere - not thousands. Spoiler Questioner Is there a center to the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson There isn't a center in the cosmere... I keep calling it a dwarf galaxy but I think they decided it's a cluster, instead of a dwarf galaxy. Overlord Jebus Even a dwarf galaxy is still really big. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, still too big. So we had to call it a cluster. Because we only wanted like what, we came up with 50 or 100 stars? So it's a cluster. Or a really dwarf galaxy. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) AU the Drominad system essay: Quote The system, nicknamed Drominad, has a remarkable three planets inhabited by fully developed human societies. (There is also a fourth planet in the habitable zone.) This is unique in the cosmere; only the Rosharan system can rival it, and there one of the planets is inhabited solely by Splinters. Skipping attracts Nomad to planets with investiture, it's not random - that's why he lands on planets that are inhabited because enough investiture is there: Spoiler Questioner Are there planets in the Cosmere in which there is no Investiture, and could Sig accidentally skip there and get permanently stuck? Brandon Sanderson There are no planets with no Investiture. You would have to have no matter in order for there to be no Investiture, because matter, energy, and Investiture are the same thing. There are planets where, let's just say, natural sources of Investiture that are easy to reach are not present. So you would have to figure out another way to make this all work, which would be very difficult. It is possible for him to get there, but the way the magic is working is he is being drawn partially to sources of Investiture, so it's highly unlikely he would end up on one of those planets. Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022) Some WoBs: Spoiler Windrunner As you've stated that the magic of First of the Sun is natural and independent of any particular Shard, what is the nature of the pool on Patji? Is it also a natural manifestation of magic, a perpendicularity, or simply a pool like any other? Brandon Sanderson It's a natural manifestation, but on a much smaller scale than you might find on other worlds. /r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015) Spoiler TurtletheFlsh So we know both Cultivation and Honor have Shardpools on Roshar and we also know that Odium is around somewhere on Roshar, does this mean he also has a Shardpool somewhere on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Shardpools, as they are called, are a natural effect of a Shard spending a lot of time on a world. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015) Spoiler Questioner Could you tell me something about Cosmere, that we don't know? Brandon Sanderson Oooh boy, that is so hard, people ask this all the time and I keep running out of things... Was there anything I haven't added recently... There are Shards whose Shardpools are not on a planet they currently inhabit. At least one. Kraków signing (March 21, 2017) Spoiler Pagerunner In The Traveler, which you read here [at a prior JordanCon], Hoid was on Yolen. He has only worldhopped with perpendicularities. Does Yolen have a perpendicularity? Brandon Sanderson Yolen has something very similar. Pagerunner Okay, is it associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson You would call it a perpendicularity, but there is not a Shard in residence on Yolen. JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) Spoiler Questioner Is the Threnody novel--is the perpendicularity in a specific place or does it have to do with a set of circumstances? Brandon Sanderson Threnody does not have a perpendicularity. Questioner The way to travel...? Brandon Sanderson The way to travel on there has specifically to do with the fact that a Shard was killed nearby. DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019) Edited April 1 by alder24 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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