Oudeis he/him Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) From the epigraphs of Hero of Ages, what I personally believe is this: The "power" of the Shards are their spiritual aspect. The "minds" of the Gods are the cognitive aspects. Without the minds, the power will still act instinctively, but cannot be consciously directed. Leras gave up some of his power to make humanity, meaning his power (the Spiritual aspect) was weaker than Ruin's. However, his mind, the Cognitive aspect, was still the equal to Ati's. Because their nature is anathema, unlike most other Shards, as we saw when Vin attacked Ati they were incapable of surviving touch with each other. So that was Leras's prison. He sacrificed most of his own mind to wrap it around Ati's mind like a cage. The Power of Ruin still exists in the world (the Spiritual Aspect) but unguided by the mind of Ruin, the Cognitive Aspect. This, combined with the atium trick, balanced the unguided powers of Preservation and Ruin, forestalling the end of the world. I personally suspect that Leras did not commit his full mind, leaving the Mist Spirit to try to guide humanity. I think this little bit he kept back was part of why Ruin was still able to influence the world in tiny, subtle ways. If Leras had committed more to the prison, perhaps he'd have held Ati in stronger check. This may or may not have been a good thing; Ati eventually had to be defeated. This is pointed out in a WoB I will try to find. The Millenial Power was meant to be taken once every thousand (or so) years, used to make the world a better place, and incidentally to shore up Ruin's prison. (Edit: See my post below for this WoB) Apparently the act of dispelling the power instead undid the prison, killing the last of Leras's mind, freeing Ruin's. Ruin's mind, now free, still found itself with only power equal to Preservation's, due to the atium trick. He could not destroy the world in one go, but he was able to accelerate it a lot, because the opposing power was fully undirected. Ati was able to find bits of wiggle room, able to discern ways he could push that would cause the unthinking power of Preservation to react in a manner that worked to Ruin's design, in however minor a fashion (the way he encouraged the Mists, Leras's own invention, rather than opposing it, making it something deadly). Edited June 26, 2015 by Oudeis
CWS Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) I like the "cognitive bearhug of negation" idea to explain Leras "sacrificing" his mind to entrap Ati's... and I completely agree with the general state of Preservation and Ruin in HoA. But I'm still thinking theres a more direct connection to the prison Leras fashioned and the well, at least beyond the thought that the power must me used to reinforce the "hug", mainly because we're talking about a negation that lasted for over 1000 years and Leras succumbed within a second or two of Vin just choosing not to "shore it up". I think the release of the power had a more direct impact than simply not strengthening Leras's "prison" for ruin, and I'm really interested in the specifics of the mechanics at work. I suspect that the right answer is completely consistent with everything else we see in the books... I'm assuming theres a WoB on it somewhere, but I've always thought that the states of matter in the physical realm, solid liquid and gas, correspond to manifestations of "realmatically potent" physical, cognitive and spiritual aspects, respectively (seems like theres a bunch of posts assuming the same thing, and shardblades being stored in the spiritual realm popping into the physical as if condensed from mist...) So I'm leaning toward believing that the power of preservation stored in the well is closely tied to Lera's cognitive aspect. So we've got the physical representation of Leras's cognitive aspect being "used" by Rashek and the prison holds. So the sacrifice of Leras's mind is still intact, whatever Rashek did, didnt change the conditions nearly as drastically as what Vin does 1024 years later... Vin "releases" the physical representation of Leras's cognitive aspect and a second later Ati/Ruin is released. This seems like a rapid change to Leras's capabilities, far more abrupt than what Rashek did. If I knew what "releasing" did I'd probably know more about the mechanics of how Leras used his mind to trap Ati. I'm thinking that releasing the power either hid it from Leras, which would assume that Leras was in some form of possession of that power, or it returned it to Leras which would imply that Leras was not in possession of it... The wiki has it stating that Leras sacrificed his mind to trap ruin, and I believe (I'll have to look up) that during the events of the HoA preservation was missing the vast majority of its cognitive aspect... so neither scenario seems to make sense.... The two best scenarios I can come up with are these: One scenario is that the sacrifice Lera's made removed his cognitive aspect from his direct control and set it in a state of near equilibrium removing Ati's cognitive aspect from his control. The mechanics of the sacrifice being some godlike ability thats not going to be explained in any more detail than any other direct shard action. As for the power at the well, if Leras's cognitive aspect is busy keeping Ati's at bay it wouldnt make sense for there to be enough left over to move worlds... That would make the power not directly tied to the cognitive aspect of Leras (as its currently busy), but the shard's power (I'm assuming spritual aspect, but I'll just say "not Lera's cognitive aspect) that requires a mind to use... Vin touching the power and then refusing it her mind to direct it, causes the power to immediately require its holders mind, snapping Leras's cognitive aspect out of the negation of Ati's. That would leave Preservation with whatever power was left after Vin denied it and it found Leras's mind, plus whatever cognitive aspect it could wrest from Leras efforts to negate Ati... Seems like a fair amount of resources, too many to explain how extremely weak Preservation appears in HoA, but maybe all that mess takes more energy/power out of the equation than I'm assuming... The second scenario I can come up with is that Leras sacrifices all but the smallest portion of his mind, only retaining what would be necessary to direct preservations power to entrap ruin. The sacrifice of his mind being required to get around the shardic intent of preservation that would for some reasons unknown prevent Preservation from acting as directly opposed to ruin. The majority of Leras's cognitive aspect being given up coalesces in the well of ages every 1024 years and must me used by someone so it remains away from Preservation. Upon releasing the power at the well, Vin gives Leras back the mind that he sacrificed and is immediately directed away from containing ruin in that matter. This scenario seems extremely shaky on the shardic intent part, and still leaves preservation with a returned cognitive aspect and power seemingly beyond what I see in HoA... Who knows maybe Vin's release severely damaged Leras's cognitive aspect, but still returning to him enough to know that what he was doing was against what preservation wants to do. Vin's releasing of the power being somehow akin to her "hiding" Leras's cognitive aspect seems contradictory to the idea that Leras sacrificed his mind in the first place... I recall not being hung up on this point several years ago, so I'm assuming that the answer is explained and I just forgot it and cant seem to find it anywhere online... I jumped around with names using Leras and Preservation mainly because it seems like all the talk of Leras's cognitive aspect not quite being 100% "available" then Kel, Vin and ultimately Sazed taking Preservation up makes me think of the cognitive aspect belonging to the shardholder (the mind required to focus the power that I've heard referenced) and the "power" (spiritual aspect?) coming from the shard... physical aspect, who knows I'd lean toward shardholder, cause the metals are called learsium and atium not preservatium and ruinium, but I dont really care about any of that stuff at the moment... Edited June 26, 2015 by CWS 3
Oudeis he/him Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 First, literally every upvote ever for the phrase "cognitive bearhug of negation". Second, I did not mean to imply a lack of connection between the Well and the prison. I mention it only briefly because, as you state, we have no idea what the model is and very little to go on to guess. Maybe it's one of your two ideas, or maybe it's something entirely different. I absolutely think they were tied together very closely, and that the act of releasing it immediately broke the prison. The idea that it would be used once every 1024 years to shore up the prison came from this WoB. I didn't mean to imply that the only connection was the ability to patch a prison. Last, there's a WoB I cannot find right now (I thought it was on Theoryland) which states that the "state of matter" determined strength; gas, the mist, was the weakest, spread everywhere and only doing a little. Solid was in the middle, very powerful at one specific thing. And then liquid was the most powerful, granting temporarily something akin to full Ascension. It rubs my OCD the wrong way that "states of matter" go in order but the power levels do not, but I try to make my peace with that. The world isn't always neat and tidy like that. I would be the worst God ever, the fundamental elements of matter would be alphabetized. 1
CWS Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Bad wording on my part to make the connection you made between Leras's release of the prison and the well seem less than what it was... It sounds like an opposing viewpoint when I reread it, but its really just meant as a bit more detail (which I have no idea about) Thank you very much for the tidbit about states of matter in the physical realm, my solid, liquid, gas -> physical, cognitive, spiritual seemed off, particularly in that I think of a shards power being mainly of a spiritual aspect, shardpools being the most concentrated form of it, and they're liquid, not gas, so it seemed like I was using a bad association... What you said makes much more sense. I don't like either of my scenarios to be honest, they seem far less elegant than what I'd imagine Brandon's real explanation would be... I want to draw some sort of parallel with Ati's body being hidden away from him, but its just too different for me to be able to make any leaps... His physical aspect is condensed into Atium, presumably in some process in the pits of hathsin where I've read Ati's shardpool is (is this an assumption or official?) He knows his body is Atium, and he knows that Atium "generates" at the pits, but yet the beads are secreted away from him... Moreover, when the beads are burned allomantically, preservation power is used (but seemingly not invested by the burner, or if it is very little at one time) no Ruin power is used, but the metal body of ruin through which preservation flows is consumed.. (Do we know how its consumed? is there inherent energy of a specific type that's invested uniquely, and then preservation flows through some manifestation of that investiture? in what the spiritual realm? releasing the consumed "Atium investiture" back into the spiritual realm with the effect of prescience in the physical realm?) However this particular aspect of atium is consumed it does not immediately flow back to, or become known by, Ruin or else the end of HoA would have been a complete disaster. So consuming/using the physical representation of Ati's physical aspect clearly does not return any "power" to him... I think that's too far away (dissimilar) from Rashek consuming Preservation's shardpool at the well to draw any conclusions... Seemingly concentrated preservation energy without cognitive direction by the shard/shardholder that was used with seemingly minor (compared to what Vin did) impact on the shard/shardholder... and in the case of Atium, seemingly concentrated Ruin energy? (body = energy, seems a stretch) without cognitive direction by the shard/shardholder that was used with seemingly minor impact on the shard/shardholder... I don't recall ever reading a misting / mistborn talk about releasing the energy in a similar sense of what Vin did at the well... Aluminum is the closest thing I can think of to that... so its really useless to speculate if theres something analogous to the "releasing the power" for alomancy facilitated by aluminum... Possible waste of a question to Brandon: "If Elend had found a stack of allomantic aluminum with the cache of atium at the end of HoA, and instead of going out like a boss the way he and his men did, he chose to binge on atium with repeated aluminum flushes, would the outcome have been any different?" I'm rambling too much now... bottom line is I think I'm in complete agreement with what Oudeis described, what happened, the results and the state of preservation and ruin, I'm just wondering if anyone has more details on the mechanics of the whole mess, particularly the events at the end of WoA? Thanks again!
Oudeis he/him Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) To rewind a bit, while looking for the quote I was thinking of, I found the quote I tried finding earlier about solid, liquid, and gas. Okay look up "atium" on Theoryland keeps referencing the fact I'm trying to nail down but I can't find the direct quote. Basically, the God metals obey different rules. Burning lerasium isn't a connection to Preservation's power; it's the actual power itself. Like the difference between a battery and an extension cord. Similarly, atium is actually Ruin's power. The mechanism inside you that allows you to burn it might be a tiny scrap of Preservation, but you're not opening a door to Preservation's power, you're actually burning the fuel that is the atium itself. This is a departure from the mechanism one uses to burn the other metals. Here is my understanding of the mechanism: Preservation was able to separate a fraction of Ruin's power, an amount equal to what Preservation had Invested in humans, thereby restoring balance between the two powers. Atium is what he did with the extra Ruin. It's trapped within a mini-system; it condenses into physical matter in the beads, and when burned evaporates back into the cycle which, itself, is Preservation's means of keeping Ruin's power divided. That's why it's not going back to Ruin when it gets burned; the beads aren't the lock, the entire cycle is. One possible difference if Elend had just used aluminum flushes: well, first, they would not have killed anything like as many Koloss or held them off as long, and it's possible no one in the caves would have survived to the World Reborn, meaning almost no Terrismen would be in the New World, and twinborn would be impossibly rare. But also, Elend "beat" Marsh by burning duralumin and atium to see the future well enough to realize that by sparing Marsh and sacrificing his own life, he would "checkmate" Ruin. So that might have turned out differently. Still, for Elend's actual plan, that probably would have worked just as well. ((And ties in with my question, if Elend has access to all allomantic powers while Vin is powering him, what specifically would happen if he used the power of aluminum? Presumably it would only affect metals, not the actual power Vin is pouring directly in to him. Hrm. Does that mean aluminum actually doesn't affect lerasium or atium, which are themselves not a conduit but direct power? Or would it metabolize the metals, leaving you with a belly full of direct Shardic power?)) Edited June 26, 2015 by Oudeis 1
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 So it's been 100% confirmed that there are only 3 realms? Or has he only mentioned 3 realms? I'm pretty sure he was the first to mention the realms but that doesn't mean there are only 3 of them.
Moogle Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 So it's been 100% confirmed that there are only 3 realms? Or has he only mentioned 3 realms? I'm pretty sure he was the first to mention the realms but that doesn't mean there are only 3 of them. Well, we have Harmony mentioning the Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual, we have Shai mentioning the same, and we have Brandon mentioning those three, and only those three, in numerous WoBs. There's an afterlife and an after-afterlife, if that counts for your question? Shards can't see into them, so it seems like they're beyond Realmatics. If you mean an extra Realm in the "regular" world of the Cosmere, it seems unlikely to the extreme.
ecohansen Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Oudeis, thank you very much for that last post. That was one of my biggest points of confusion in the cosmere. I rememer the sense of dread I felt when I saw Elend burning the atium thinking that all that power was cycling back to Ruin--and then how confused I was when exactly the opposite result eventuated. So what, exactly, was Ruin planning to do with the atium? If burning destroys it instead of returning it to Ruin, what process was Ruin planning to use that would harvest its energy rather than destroying it?
Kurkistan he/him Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 So what, exactly, was Ruin planning to do with the atium? If burning destroys it instead of returning it to Ruin, what process was Ruin planning to use that would harvest its energy rather than destroying it? Apparently Ruin would have to manifest to reabsorb and metabolize it. 1
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Well, we have Harmony mentioning the Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual, we have Shai mentioning the same, and we have Brandon mentioning those three, and only those three, in numerous WoBs. There's an afterlife and an after-afterlife, if that counts for your question? Shards can't see into them, so it seems like they're beyond Realmatics. If you mean an extra Realm in the "regular" world of the Cosmere, it seems unlikely to the extreme. OK, thanks.
Oudeis he/him Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Kurk beat me to it. This was one of my big questions for approximately ever, and I had much the same mental model you did at first before I read these, thought about it for a long time, and eventually got my mind around it. I cannot express enough that this is only my personal idea of what's happened and that I can in no way prove most of it. That said, I do believe it maintains internal integrity and matches what is known, and is therefore a viable model, whether or not it proves to be entirely correct. I still wonder in morbid fascination exactly and specifically what would have happened. I suppose to be brutally honest, it would have been rather boring. We see from Vin's perspective, when she tries to do something, she feels resistance from an equally-powerful opposing force. Presumably, once he had the atium, Ruin would simply have reached into the planet's heart to kill it, felt the resistance from Preservation's force, and simply been able to overpower it this time.
nicocoberru she/her Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 *sneaks in* Umm, can I ask a question? Uhh, in SA, whu does everyone assumes that "The Broken One" is Odium. He's still complete, right? He hasn't been splintered, so why would he be called The Broken One? 1
Oudeis he/him Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 I don't know that everyone assumes it. I personally see it as Honor, but there are people who think it's Odium. I think I've heard people say that they think Odium is insane, and therefore 'broken'.
natc Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 Whoever it is he's supposed to be in charge now, IIRC, and we keep getting all these "ODIUM REIGNS!" being proclaimed. 1
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 Has it been theorised/speculated on if Vasher suspects/knows of the true nature of the Spren/Plate/Blades or is aware Cosmere-wise in regards to Roshar/Desolations/Aharietiam?
Kelek's Breath he/him Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 How is it that spheres need to be re-charged outside, during a Highstorm? Can't stormlight penetrate inside structures or is it only certain types of structures? It seems that Shallan could re-charge her spheres inside a wooden wagon when she was with Tvlakv, but she put them in a basket on the mast when she was on the Wind's Pleasure. Also, why can't Stormlight penetrate, but the Everstorm's power can supposedly change Parshmen even when inside buildings?
Moogle Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 How is it that spheres need to be re-charged outside, during a Highstorm? Can't stormlight penetrate inside structures or is it only certain types of structures? It seems that Shallan could re-charge her spheres inside a wooden wagon when she was with Tvlakv, but she put them in a basket on the mast when she was on the Wind's Pleasure. Also, why can't Stormlight penetrate, but the Everstorm's power can supposedly change Parshmen even when inside buildings? We don't know, but I'd point you to a similar phenomenon in the mists off Scadrial. The mists dissipate as they enter buildings. Something about native magical weather doesn't like to intrude on people's privacy, it seems. As to the listeners, we don't know if the Everstorm will be able to change them inside buildings. It's not a naturally occurring thing, like the mists or highstorm, though, so it shouldn't follow the same rules necessarily. Maybe the spren in the Everstorm can force their way in...
Kelek's Breath he/him Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 As to the listeners, we don't know if the Everstorm will be able to change them inside buildings. It's not a naturally occurring thing, like the mists or highstorm, though, so it shouldn't follow the same rules necessarily. Maybe the spren in the Everstorm can force their way in... Thanks Moogle for answering. As for the Listeners, SA3 spoilers since Kaladin sees a hole in the building where Roshone houses his Parshmen, I assumed the spren have nothing holding them back and can enter structures. Although Kaladin seems attracted to the stormspren in one scene where he is guarding Elhokar, when there is something red outside the shutters. He is drawn towards it and begins opening the shutter. Maybe voidspren tug at the inate Odiusness in each Rosharan/Listener to get them to come out to the storm. 1
Argent he/him Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 I wouldn't use drafts for canon. Things can change significantly before publication.
Dunkum he/him Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 We don't know, but I'd point you to a similar phenomenon in the mists off Scadrial. The mists dissipate as they enter buildings. Something about native magical weather doesn't like to intrude on people's privacy, it seems. this sounds like realmatic spiritual or cognitive stuff, to me. something about a building being considered a shelter in a cognitive sense, and blocking out the mists/stormlight/etc for that reason. wonder if it continues to extend to unoccupied or abandoned buildings...
dougpgc he/him Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) I know this is kind of pulling this topic back several pages, but I was just re-reading the Purelake quote: "There were three of them. Two were dark-skinned Makabaki, though they were the strangest Makabaki he’d ever seen. One was thick limbed where most of his kind were small and fine-boned, and he had a completely bald head. The other was taller, with short dark hair, lean muscles, and broad shoulders. In his head, Ishikk called them Grump and Blunt, on account of their personalities. The third man had light tan skin, like an Alethi. He didn’t seem quite right either, though. The eyes were the wrong shape, and his accent was certainly not Alethi. He spoke the Selay language worse than the other two, and usually stayed quiet. He seemed thoughtful, though. Ishikk called him Thinker." And I was wondering -- if all worldhoppers are using a Babel fish type of magic like Hoid is, why would Demoux (the "Thinker") speak (Selay) worse than the other two? One idea I had.. When I listened to the audiobooks, Michael Kramer voices Demoux with a sort of French sounding accent. I wonder if this accent carries over when Demoux is speaking through the Babel fish magic. P.S. - Kind of cool how the Purelake guy notices when someone's eyes don't have the Epicanthic Fold like Rosharans have. But he only notices this with Demoux. Do Galladon and the other guy have epicanthic folds? hmm Edited July 20, 2015 by dougpgc
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Would a Gnat be exempt from making Atium shadows whilst burning their metal?
Moogle Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Would a Gnat be exempt from making Atium shadows whilst burning their metal? We don't know this one for sure, and I don't recall it being discussed before. It's a perfect question to put in the on-going AMA. I can't recall any WoBs beyond ones you've probably seen - burning aluminum, in extreme cases, may allow one to remove the effects of unwanted Investiture and aluminum bullets don't have atium shadows, for example. It's unlikely to be too useful even if the answer is yes, though, as aluminum burns instantly. As speculation, I'd guess no. The atium isn't affecting you, it's looking at the environment as it were (its sort of like an internal metal, although I think they called it external in the books in their incorrect classification scheme). Because of this, it would be weird if burning aluminum blocked it (because what are you changing about the future/how are you making yourself harder to see when you're removing Investiture rather than adding it?). But I'm extremely lacking in confidence in this speculation. My thoughts are 60% chance of it not stopping atium, and 40% chance of it stopping it.
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