Ramblings about technology in Era 4

[Trusk'our]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Well, it's not about Kandra or Mistwraiths abilities, I think it's about the way Blessings are prepared. They are unlike any other Hemalurgic spike, prepared specifically for an individual, they are not interchangeable, tied to the Identity of its bearer. What if that's the key to attribute spikes that don't mutate you, or minimize those mutations to non harmful levels? Don't make spikes, make Blessings, prepared specifically for you, keyed to your identity so there is no contamination? Anyway, I agree with you, there probably are some ways to wear attribute spikes with minimal mutations. 

I hadn't thought of it that way before. 

Now, I think that this hinges on the concept that it is Identity that creates the changes made by attribute spikes or whether it's some other portion of sDNA, but at its core I think the principle would be the same no matter what; if you prepare an attribute spike correctly, it shouldn't alter you too much.

Probably. 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I doubt the changes would ever be beneficial (as Brandon philosophy of limitations), but it is plausible they could be limited/minimized.

Even if you remove the negative effects of attribute Hemalurgy's physical transformation, you still have to contend with the Flaw.

And, even if you deal with the Flaw (Trellium, aluminum, A-copper, F-Electrum, or simply high levels of Investiture) you still have the exhaustive burden it places on your Spiritweb. 

I doubt there will be any shortage of limitations for it to compliment its power.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I personally still maintain that the physical changes are because of the attribute, as the physical body changes to accommodate spiritual changes (It is no accident that full grown Koloss are 2x the size of adult human, and hence have ~4x the muscle strength from simple scaling). As such, you would have to find a way to change the attribute into something more along the lines of what A-Pewter does.

I believe that the attribute spikes already provide magical boosts similar to A-pewter, actually.

First off, why wouldn't a Koloss have access to all its potential strength from its spikes after its transformation?

Elend comments in WoA at how ridiculously strong even the small ones are, which suggests a magical boost to strength like the Kandra with the Blessing of Potency. 

Koloss are also described by Sazed as being inhumanly fast in WoA (this coming from a man who's friends with a Pewterarm and not one, but two Mistborn), which again, is seen as a magical boost by the Kandra with the Blessing of Potency in HoA (also witnessed by Sazed and hinted by TenSoon during his escape as he comments on being fast enough to outrun even those with the Blessing of Potency). 

As for why Koloss continue to grow so large, I think it's just a part of their new anatomy; it's not an integral part of the power of the spikes, it's a side effect of their transformation. 

[JohnnyKaizen]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

Since Set don't use any attribute spikes, this limitation seems to hold still, and even with Autonomy they were unable to circumvent it. So these 'chip' spikes would give you the attribute...and mutate you horribly.

If they were to figure out a way to direct/limit/control the mutations..you could have a custom built body and the powers to go with it.

[therunner]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Koloss are also described by Sazed as being inhumanly fast in WoA (this coming from a man who's friends with a Pewterarm and not one, but two Mistborn), which again, is seen as a magical boost by the Kandra with the Blessing of Potency in HoA (also witnessed by Sazed and hinted by TenSoon during his escape as he comments on being fast enough to outrun even those with the Blessing of Potency). 

As for why Koloss continue to grow so large, I think it's just a part of their new anatomy; it's not an integral part of the power of the spikes, it's a side effect of their transformation. 

My point is that Hemalurgical strength boost is magical, it is done in a way that is similar to what is happening with F-Pewter, you directly add more of the attribute to your spiritweb. Some of the effects seen with Koloss can also be from the fact that they are Hemalurgic construct, not just humans with spikes. Or it is because their souls are more Invested, and as seen in TSM, more Invested soul typically grants physical improvements (greater strength, speed, reflexes).

But there seems to be a general principle in Cosmere, where your baseline Physical state is your Spiritual Ideal filtered through Cognitive (but that has less of an effect).
We see it in Feruchemy, F-Pewter has effect on your physical form. Similarly, healing works by aligning you to your spiritual self, if you change your spiritweb, you change the physical self (if you have Investiture). Singers change their spiritwebs by bonding spren, and that changes their physical forms rather drastically. Manipulating spiritweb can be used to effectively shapeshift or even grow wings (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12722)

I don't see why Hemalurgy should be except from this rather general effect, Spiritual change leads to Physical change. Spiritweb demands that Koloss is modified human with 4x the strength, and the body grows to accomodate.
 

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If they were to figure out a way to direct/limit/control the mutations..you could have a custom built body and the powers to go with it.

Sure, I am just saying that I think you won't be able to control the mutations to the extent you would want, and that there will be tradeoffs.
Get more strength, become larger/bit disfigured and possibly dumber (if Koloss are any example).
Get more senses, the sense organ in question enlarges/shifts/grows more numerous.

You can get attribute upgrades from Hemalurgy, but there will be tradeoffs, it won't be simple direct upgrade without any cost (not including the fact you have to mutilate soul of someone else, unless they figure out programmable spikes).

There is a reason we don't see anyone with attribute spikes who is not horribly mutated monster. Not in Era 1, or Era 2, or even the Scadrians in TSM, and I think the reason is that that it cannot be used safely, as per the limitation Sanderson outlined in the WoB I quoted.

 

Edited April 17 by therunner

[UltimateArchivist]

Returning to the concept of futuristic technomancy, I find this the perfect place to implement a theory of mine. @Trusk'our is already aware of this; we discussed the possibility of Awakened Primer Cubes. In considering this, we may find Cubes whose command had been altered; now when charged, they only push or pull on certain metals or emotions, or activate at certain times or under certain circumstances. I thought this was about the coolest idea that had crossed my mind.

However, the earlier concerns are correct; Harmonium is scarce. Human attributes are not. If we focus on Feruchemical charges as power in an Awakened Metalmind, perhaps even more complicated machinery could be produced.

Let's discuss!

Also sorry if I missed something in the earlier conversations and you guys already talked about this. Trying to keep up; you guys are fast!

The Ultimate Archivist

Edited April 17 by UltimateArchivist

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, therunner said:

My point is that Hemalurgical strength boost is magical, it is done in a way that is similar to what is happening with F-Pewter, you directly add more of the attribute to your spiritweb. Some of the effects seen with Koloss can also be from the fact that they are Hemalurgic construct, not just humans with spikes. Or it is because their souls are more Invested, and as seen in TSM, more Invested soul typically grants physical improvements (greater strength, speed, reflexes).

But there seems to be a general principle in Cosmere, where your baseline Physical state is your Spiritual Ideal filtered through Cognitive (but that has less of an effect).
We see it in Feruchemy, F-Pewter has effect on your physical form. Similarly, healing works by aligning you to your spiritual self, if you change your spiritweb, you change the physical self (if you have Investiture). Singers change their spiritwebs by bonding spren, and that changes their physical forms rather drastically. Manipulating spiritweb can be used to effectively shapeshift or even grow wings (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12722)

I don't see why Hemalurgy should be except from this rather general effect, Spiritual change leads to Physical change. Spiritweb demands that Koloss is modified human with 4x the strength, and the body grows to accomodate.

Sure, I am just saying that I think you won't be able to control the mutations to the extent you would want, and that there will be tradeoffs.
Get more strength, become larger/bit disfigured and possibly dumber (if Koloss are any example).
Get more senses, the sense organ in question enlarges/shifts/grows more numerous.

This is actually a really good argument. Probably the best I've seen advocating this concept. Take a rep for that alone, please.

However, I still maintain my stance on attribute spikes granting a magical boost due to the Koloss and Kandra examples we have, and because I don't think a Spiritweb change has to lead to massive changes to the individual's self.

I mean, Tapping physical speed is Feruchemical, yet only magical alterations are made to the Feruchemist. 

I suppose I should clarify my previous statement on Spiritweb alterations; I don't think that implanting an attribute spike in a person means you have to alter parts of the Spiritweb that will lead to physical and mental mutations, no more than a power spike would. This is obviously dependent on how you prep the spike though, and it is likely a very complex problem to solve.

All that said though, you have a solid argument, so I will accept that there is at least some possibility that using attribute Hemalurgy may have some irrevocable physical alterations attached to its use, at least when dealing with non shape shifters.

[JustQuestin2004]

28 minutes ago, UltimateArchivist said:

However, the earlier concerns are correct; Harmonium is scarce. Human attributes are not. If we focus on Feruchemical charges as power in an Awakened Metalmind, perhaps even more complicated machinery could be produced.

Let's discuss!

At first I thought you were trying to talk about using Hemalurgic Spikes to power machinery, but using Metalminds makes more sense.

I can imagine jobs for people, like Firemothers/fathers, people who's job is to keep filling Unsealed metalminds to use in powering machinery. All you really need to do is figure out how to bring out the Investiture within it and turn it into something more usable, which sounds very complicated. Melting a metalmind has an effect on the Investiture inside of it so maybe that could be a lead? 

Maybe some knowledge from Roshar might make this easier? It helps that the Ghostbloods have probably sent a bunch of reports back to Scadrial so they can have some of this knowledge, of using Rhythms and Tones to manipulate Investiture. Thinking on it more, this probably won't work not since the Investiture of the Metallic Arts is too different from Stormlight, too rigid instead of flowing like the Lights.

Though maybe the Ghostbloods will learn to store some of the Mists into gemstones and use that to power machines? They're bound to try at some point since the Mists do have power in them that can be tapped into, they just need to know how.

[UltimateArchivist]

18 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

At first I thought you were trying to talk about using Hemalurgic Spikes to power machinery, but using Metalminds makes more sense.

I can imagine jobs for people, like Firemothers/fathers, people who's job is to keep filling Unsealed metalminds to use in powering machinery. All you really need to do is figure out how to bring out the Investiture within it and turn it into something more usable, which sounds very complicated. Melting a metalmind has an effect on the Investiture inside of it so maybe that could be a lead? 

Maybe some knowledge from Roshar might make this easier? It helps that the Ghostbloods have probably sent a bunch of reports back to Scadrial so they can have some of this knowledge, of using Rhythms and Tones to manipulate Investiture. Thinking on it more, this probably won't work not since the Investiture of the Metallic Arts is too different from Stormlight, too rigid instead of flowing like the Lights.

Though maybe the Ghostbloods will learn to store some of the Mists into gemstones and use that to power machines? They're bound to try at some point since the Mists do have power in them that can be tapped into, they just need to know how.

Yes, Metal minds and Primer Cubes. Typically, I like to think of something as complicated as a modern combustion engine: many small Investiture techs working in concert to achieve a greater and more intricate action. Things like construction equipment, modern weaponry, and home appliances. But it keeps cycling back to the same problem; is Investiture all that great of a fuel? Is it common enough to be used everyday? And is the work it accomplishes as efficient or as powerful?

Magic can accomplish things with greater ease. But it is also much less available in the hands of common man. In order to get Allomancy to a normal person, we need Primer Cubes. In order to get Feruchemy to someone, we need unkeyed metalminds. Unless you want to use Hemalurgy...

My point being, perhaps the technological age we seek for Scadrial is not as magic centric as we hoped. Perhaps only certain technologies can be enhanced by magic systems, and they build these more complicated and rarer systems on the backs of normal processes. We saw a lot of this in the second era, where guns and electricity were fairly common, but coinshots were still relatively rare. Are you seeing my point?

A way out of this that I can see with minimal damage involves hemalurgic compounders. Men and women who gain a spike to make dozens of unkeyed metalminds and charge Primer Cubes to help the common folk. Hemalurgic compounding would be a great benefit; imagine strike teams, each with metalminds containing speed, strength, mental thought, and other attributes. An era 4 military of incredible power.

I am wandering now. But the ideas continue to flow! Each man has a "survival pack" with a full unkeyed metalmind of each attribute that can keep him alive when he is in danger. What happens when each Scadrial soldier has a Band of Mourning? And it all comes from the Hemalurgic Compounders.

I know I totally got distracted. Then again, this conversation is "Rambling about technology in era 4". But still, what are all of your thoughts?

The Ultimate Archivist

Edited April 17 by UltimateArchivist

[CtrlAltDepressed]

44 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Thinking on it more, this probably won't work not since the Investiture of the Metallic Arts is too different from Stormlight, too rigid instead of flowing like the Lights.

Im fairly certain there is a WOB that you could manipulate the mists on Scadrial with the pure tone of Preservation. I will look for it an edit it in if i find it. 

 

There is this one:

Menderbug

Is the Well's pulsing a 'pure tone of Scadrial'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup!

Miscellaneous 2020 (Nov. 30, 2020)

and this one

MoriWillow

Is that tone and rhythm stuff universal to the Shards and Investiture elsewhere?

Brandon Sanderson

The tones can be expanded to other Shards and Invested Arts around the cosmere.

dIvorrap

Are the Allomantic pulses a Seeker hears (like drum beats) related to the tones of Preservation, then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they are.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

 

From these WOB's I would assume that you will get a response from Metallic Arts provided you are using the right tone.

Edited April 17 by CtrlAltDepressed

[therunner]

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

This is actually a really good argument. Probably the best I've seen advocating this concept. Take a rep for that alone, please.

All that said though, you have a solid argument, so I will accept that there is at least some possibility that using attribute Hemalurgy may have some irrevocable physical alterations attached to its use, at least when dealing with non shape shifters.

Thank you, you are kind  
We will eventually know...at minimum in 5-6 years

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However, I still maintain my stance on attribute spikes granting a magical boost due to the Koloss and Kandra examples we have, and because I don't think a Spiritweb change has to lead to massive changes to the individual's self.

Fair enough, I do agree that there is a degree of purely magical enhancements as well, but we do disagree on its magnitude.

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I mean, Tapping physical speed is Feruchemical, yet only magical alterations are made to the Feruchemist. 

Yeah, technically only F-Pewter causes those changes, which is problematic, the rest is just magic.

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I suppose I should clarify my previous statement on Spiritweb alterations; I don't think that implanting an attribute spike in a person means you have to alter parts of the Spiritweb that will lead to physical and mental mutations, no more than a power spike would. This is obviously dependent on how you prep the spike though, and it is likely a very complex problem to solve.

I mean, the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7711) is rather clear that non-power spikes will cause changes  ("it would change the body of the recipient greatly"), quote: and that it is distinction between power spikes and non-power spikes ("when that happened, the receiver was twisted much more than if an Allomantically charged spike or a Feruchemically charged spike was used")

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Brandon Sanderson

The Mechanism of Hemalurgy

...

Hence the decision that where the spike was placed in the receiver, and how it was used to kill a person, influenced how the power was shaped. Now a pewter spike could steal any of a number of powers, based on how it was used. And regular people could be used instead of Allomancers—however, when that happened, the receiver was twisted much more than if an Allomantically charged spike or a Feruchemically charged spike was used.

My rationale for this is that if the spike is pulling out the pure power of Preservation—part of the power of all creation—and twisting it, it would change the body of the recipient greatly. Twisting them through use of the twisted power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 17, 2009)

Sure, Brandon can change his mind, he only included this because he needed origin of Koloss and Kandra, and did not want to introduce another magic system. If in the future attribute spikes are needed to not cause mutations, it will be so.
But personally I don't think that will happen, with larger crossovers he has access to numerous other Invested Arts that can achieve similar effects, and so I think this limitation will remain.

@UltimateArchivist

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My point being, perhaps the technological age we seek for Scadrial is not as magic centric as we hoped. Perhaps only certain technologies can be enhanced by magic systems, and they build these more complicated and rarer systems on the backs of normal processes. We saw a lot of this in the second era, where guns and electricity were fairly common, but coinshots were still relatively rare. Are you seeing my point?

I agree with this standpoint. Brandon sees Roshar as the magi-tech planet, not Scadrial. Scadrial is Earth-analogue with some magi-tech sprinkled in, but in more technological way.

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A way out of this that I can see with minimal damage involves hemalurgic compounders.

Do note that Hemalurgic compounding is no longer possible as of end of Era 1, only pre-existing Hemalurgist can do it (i.e. Marsh).
It might be possible again in future, but it would require Shardic intervention (as apparently it was only possible because of 'Ruin pressing on reality').

Edited April 17 by therunner

[UltimateArchivist]

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

Do note that Hemalurgic compounding is no longer possible as of end of Era 1, only pre-existing Hemalurgist can do it (i.e. Marsh).
It might be possible again in future, but it would require Shardic intervention (as apparently it was only possible because of 'Ruin pressing on reality').

Oh dear. I even researched this, as I was sure I had heard something about it before, but found nothing. Please, forgive me. I was... relatively certain.

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Thank you, you are kind  

Thanks! You're pretty polite yourself 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

 We will eventually know...at minimum in 5-6 years

Hopefully, we may get some more answers in era 3 in even fewer. But that's pretty wishful thinking, I suppose. 

Until such time, theorizing is the best we've got.

[therunner]

8 hours ago, UltimateArchivist said:

Oh dear. I even researched this, as I was sure I had heard something about it before, but found nothing. Please, forgive me. I was... relatively certain.

Nothing to apologize to for!

It is still feasible, it just has large ore-requisite to remain mindful of.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Thanks! You're pretty polite yourself 

I try

Quote

Hopefully, we may get some more answers in era 3 in even fewer. But that's pretty wishful thinking, I suppose. 

Until such time, theorizing is the best we've got.

Well, Ghostbloods 1 is still 4,5 years away, and Ghostbloods 3 6,5 Hence my estimate
Indeed, though maybe Emberdark will provide us with some guidance.

[JustQuestin2004]

13 hours ago, therunner said:

Do note that Hemalurgic compounding is no longer possible as of end of Era 1, only pre-existing Hemalurgist can do it (i.e. Marsh).
It might be possible again in future, but it would require Shardic intervention (as apparently it was only possible because of 'Ruin pressing on reality').

Marsh implied in TLM that there was a trick to compounding with Hemalurgy, he was relieved that the Set hadn't figured it out. 

So it is implied to be possible, it's just that there is probably some extra steps, likely having your victim somehow Blank their Identity to prevent 'Identity Contamination' which is noted as the main problem towards compounding with Hemalurgically granted powers. My guess is that this is related to how you could theoretically use another Feruchemist's metalminds by spiking his powers, with the spike also picking up part of their Identity.

Spoiler

Lucadaw

If someone used Hemalurgy to take someones Feruchemical abilities would they be able to use that persons personal metalminds? Most relevantly perhaps to take that person's knowledge from their copperminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

So there is potential, it just hasn't been discovered yet.

[therunner]

33 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Marsh implied in TLM that there was a trick to compounding with Hemalurgy, he was relieved that the Set hadn't figured it out.

Marsh is not necessarily the most knowledgeable on the subject, unless he became scientifically inclined.

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So it is implied to be possible, it's just that there is probably some extra steps, likely having your victim somehow Blank their Identity to prevent 'Identity Contamination' which is noted as the main problem towards compounding with Hemalurgically granted powers.

Marsh is not exactly a scholar, so we should not take him at his word. 
In fact Ars Arcanum (i.e. Khriss) just says it is no longer possible, and makes no note of possible reason for it.

Marsh could speculate it is due to Identity, as he was aware of issues with burning metalminds of others, but that does not mean he is correct.

From IRL perspective Compounding is too powerful to be available 'freely', it would distort in-world dynamics too much. Set would be unbeatable, any villain (Trellist in Era 3) would have gigantic advantage (especially if they had access to Trellium to shield from influence). Why would Brandon close this option, only to open it up again?

I suspect if it will turn out to be possibly, it will be rather risky and complicated process, and as a result only very few will be capable of it.

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My guess is that this is related to how you could theoretically use another Feruchemist's metalminds by spiking his powers, with the spike also picking up part of their Identity.

There is no additional step needed there, if you spike Feruchemist, you can use their metalminds. So Identity is not nearly as much of an issue in Feruchemy as it is within Compounding.

[UltimateArchivist]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Marsh is not necessarily the most knowledgeable on the subject, unless he became scientifically inclined.

Well, Marsh has lived for several hundred years now. Is there any reason he couldn't have done in depth study of his condition in all of that time? He is also Harmony's agent when it comes to dealing with Hemalurgists.

Edited April 18 by UltimateArchivist

[JustQuestin2004]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Marsh is not necessarily the most knowledgeable on the subject, unless he became scientifically inclined.

Probably not, but Sazed knows pretty much all there is to know, and Marsh has been his top agent for centuries so if I was going to bet on anyone who was going to be aware of it, Marsh would be near the top of that list just due to proximity.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

In fact Ars Arcanum (i.e. Khriss) just says it is no longer possible, and makes no note of possible reason for it.

Khriss isn't in direct contact with Harmony, she isn't omniscient so she wouldn't know everything about it. She had an interview with Marsh so she could learn more.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

From IRL perspective Compounding is too powerful to be available 'freely', it would distort in-world dynamics too much. Set would be unbeatable, any villain (Trellist in Era 3) would have gigantic advantage (especially if they had access to Trellium to shield from influence). Why would Brandon close this option, only to open it up again?

I suspect if it will turn out to be possibly, it will be rather risky and complicated process, and as a result only very few will be capable of it.

I do agree though, even if we're unlikely to see another Lord Ruler, even just normal Compounding with the right metals would be pushing it.

But I do think it'd be rare for the simple fact that you'd need your 'donor' to be somehow blanking their Identity while they are spiked to death. Since the Set were mostly limited to Scadrian resources and had no access to off-world Magic Systems, would require either a spike or medallion that had Feruchemical Aluminum, both of which would be difficult to get. Which would require the 'donor' to willingly store away their entire Identity even while dying. Which would be made even harder if the donor was an unwilling kidnapped victim.

So yeah I agree it'd be pretty rare for this to happen, just by using Scadrian methods. Unless Harmonium can be used to forcibly Blank other people's Identity which is just pure speculation.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

There is no additional step needed there, if you spike Feruchemist, you can use their metalminds. So Identity is not nearly as much of an issue in Feruchemy as it is within Compounding.

It kind of is, since if you split that same spike and shared it with someone else, you wouldn't e able to tap their metalminds since their own Identity 'muddles' the Spikes.

[Trusk'our]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

From IRL perspective Compounding is too powerful to be available 'freely', it would distort in-world dynamics too much. Set would be unbeatable, any villain (Trellist in Era 3) would have gigantic advantage (especially if they had access to Trellium to shield from influence). Why would Brandon close this option, only to open it up again?

Well, technology in the form of aluminum weapons, Unsealed Metalminds, and Primer Cubes are all shifting the balance away from a few people and towards the population as a whole, so re introducing Computers may not too game breaking given enough development. 

[therunner]

1 hour ago, UltimateArchivist said:

Well, Marsh has lived for several hundred years now. Is there any reason he couldn't have done in depth study of his condition in all of that time? He is also Harmony's agent when it comes to dealing with Hemalurgists.

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Probably not, but Sazed knows pretty much all there is to know, and Marsh has been his top agent for centuries so if I was going to bet on anyone who was going to be aware of it, Marsh would be near the top of that list just due to proximity.

With what tools could he study it? Terris and even Kandra are barely starting to crack spiritual metals, and unlike Marsh, some Kandra are scientifically inclined.
Plus Harmony is not sharing information regarding basically anything (and kinda cant), so he would certainly not communicate it.

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Khriss isn't in direct contact with Harmony, she isn't omniscient so she wouldn't know everything about it. She had an interview with Marsh so she could learn more.

And Harmony is not really sharing info, not with Kandra, or Wax, or Kelsier, and most likely not with Marsh.
And even after the interview, she did not include Marshes speculation that Compounding issue was due to Identity Contamination. So he either did not mention it (which would be odd), or it was dismissed.

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But I do think it'd be rare for the simple fact that you'd need your 'donor' to be somehow blanking their Identity while they are spiked to death. Since the Set were mostly limited to Scadrian resources and had no access to off-world Magic Systems, would require either a spike or medallion that had Feruchemical Aluminum, both of which would be difficult to get. Which would require the 'donor' to willingly store away their entire Identity even while dying. Which would be made even harder if the donor was an unwilling kidnapped victim.

You could spike the donor with 4-5 spikes, then break into them via the Flaw (with assistance of some Nicrosil misting) and control them to store away Identity, before spiking what you want.
Kinda cumbersome, but theoretically doable.

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It kind of is, since if you split that same spike and shared it with someone else, you wouldn't e able to tap their metalminds since their own Identity 'muddles' the Spikes.

Yep, it is interesting piece of info.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Well, technology in the form of aluminum weapons, Unsealed Metalminds, and Primer Cubes are all shifting the balance away from a few people and towards the population as a whole, so re introducing Computers may not too game breaking given enough development. 

1-1 Compounders would be still kind of game breaking, F-Steel and F-Gold in one person is quite dangerous combination.

But primarily the issue would be societal, not personal. Any society in which such level of power is just two murders away would be quite...different.

Edited April 18 by therunner

[JustQuestin2004]

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

With what tools could he study it? Terris and even Kandra are barely starting to crack spiritual metals, and unlike Marsh, some Kandra are scientifically inclined.
Plus Harmony is not sharing information regarding basically anything (and kinda cant), so he would certainly not communicate it.

I dunno, Marsh just sounded so sure...

TLM Chapter 28

Spoiler

"This is extremely dangerous. So far, I do not believe they've learned the secret to Compounding via Hemalurgy. Identity contamination prevents it; that is our only saving grace. If they could do that..."

Like, this doesn't sound like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Marsh sounds really sure and really relieved. As for Harmony keeping stuff secret, he's been explicitly lying to Kelsier about making Lerasium. He probably trusts Marsh more then Kel, since if Kel had access to all this knowledge, he'd become an even bigger wildcard for the Cosmere than he already is, could you imagine if the Ghostbloods on Roshar has access to Lerasium and Atium? Not very Harmonious.

Marsh though, is pratically Harmony's hands, for when Harmony needs important stuff done. He has been for centuries. Heck in BOM he let slip about advanced technology to the Kandra, what makes you think he hasn't let slip about Hemlaurgy to Marsh? Especially if it's meant to help him save the world.

46 minutes ago, therunner said:

You could spike the donor with 4-5 spikes, then break into them via the Flaw (with assistance of some Nicrosil misting) and control them to store away Identity, before spiking what you want.
Kinda cumbersome, but theoretically doable.

Sounds plausible. Heck you might be able to make this easier by just taking one spike and splitting it up into 4-5, maybe even more depending on if drained spikes still stick to that same limit. Stick 5 Pathian earrings into someone then control them.

51 minutes ago, therunner said:

1-1 Compounders would be still kind of game breaking, F-Steel and F-Gold in one person is quite dangerous combination.

But primarily the issue would be societal, not personal. Any society in which such level of power is just two murders away would be quite...different.

Compounders can indeed be game-breaking, there's no getting around that, C-Steel alone is ridiculous. But as shown with Miles, they aren't unbeatable just tough to bring down. Plus not every type of Compounder is going to be OP, C-Cadmium for instance. 

As for the second part, I wasn't really thinking of societal. Since this is probably the kind of thing anyone would prefer to keep to themselves for the advantage. But if it did, you'd need to remember that Metalborn are still rare, and in the Terris Village there was only one Steelrunner who Bleeder killed. So if someone wanted to do this they'd need to find and kidnap a Misting and Ferring who match metals, then go through a difficult cumbersome process to forcibly blank their Identity so that the Spikes become Unkeyed, preventing identity contamination.

If it became public knowledge, then most Metalborn would probably just hide their powers if it ever became a trend to hunt metalborn. Overall what you prescribe would need Hemalurgy to become public knowledge, which sounds like a whole other can of worms, the idea of gaining 1/16 of the power the Lord Ruler had would just be putting chum in the waters. 

[therunner]

15 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I dunno, Marsh just sounded so sure...

TLM Chapter 28

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"This is extremely dangerous. So far, I do not believe they've learned the secret to Compounding via Hemalurgy. Identity contamination prevents it; that is our only saving grace. If they could do that..."

Like, this doesn't sound like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Marsh sounds really sure and really relieved. As for Harmony keeping stuff secret, he's been explicitly lying to Kelsier about making Lerasium. He probably trusts Marsh more then Kel, since if Kel had access to all this knowledge, he'd become an even bigger wildcard for the Cosmere than he already is, could you imagine if the Ghostbloods on Roshar has access to Lerasium and Atium? Not very Harmonious.

Just because character is sure does not mean they are right. Wax was hundred percent sure Lessie was dead, and he was dead wrong.

As such I'd trust Ars Arcanum over the story, since Ars Arcanum has been used to provide us, the readers, with additional information.
Or even more accurate information, like in the case of Allomantic table from hardcover HoA which contained the effect of Pure Atium long before most readers realized Atium in Era 1 was alloy.
 

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Marsh though, is pratically Harmony's hands, for when Harmony needs important stuff done. He has been for centuries. Heck in BOM he let slip about advanced technology to the Kandra, what makes you think he hasn't let slip about Hemlaurgy to Marsh? Especially if it's meant to help him save the world.

Harmony cannot interfere much if at all, what he let slip is that moving pictures are possible, but absolutely no details about how to make it.
Letting Marsh know about how exactly to  hack together multiple Invested Arts is rather different sort of information, equivalent information would be letting it slip that Hemalurgic compounding is possible but no other details.

And nowhere did such information help them save the world, in fact saving the world was completely independent of knowing how to Compound with Hemalurgy. In fact, Wax was Harmony's chosen agent to save the world (what with being his Sword), so if he was to provide someone with that knowledge Wax makes more sense (especially since he is weak Mistborn and has Hemalurgic spikes).

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Sounds plausible. Heck you might be able to make this easier by just taking one spike and splitting it up into 4-5, maybe even more depending on if drained spikes still stick to that same limit. Stick 5 Pathian earrings into someone then control them.

Yup, which makes it more likely that Identity is not the only problem with Hemalurgic compounding.

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Compounders can indeed be game-breaking, there's no getting around that, C-Steel alone is ridiculous. But as shown with Miles, they aren't unbeatable just tough to bring down. Plus not every type of Compounder is going to be OP, C-Cadmium for instance. 

Yeah, but we are talking about Hemalurgic Compounding, i.e. when someone makes themselves (or someone) Compounders on purpose. They absolutely would make themselves OP Compounder, why would they do anything else?

Imagine Miles with C-Steel, Wax would be dead.

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As for the second part, I wasn't really thinking of societal. Since this is probably the kind of thing anyone would prefer to keep to themselves for the advantage. But if it did, you'd need to remember that Metalborn are still rare, and in the Terris Village there was only one Steelrunner who Bleeder killed.

Metalborn while rare are still something like 1:100 if I recall right. So Elendel alone has ~10000 -ish Mistings.
And there were multiple Steelrunners in the Terris Village (still probably in single digits), the one Bleeder killed was among the few that left and as such was plausible target.

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So if someone wanted to do this they'd need to find and kidnap a Misting and Ferring who match metals, then go through a difficult cumbersome process to forcibly blank their Identity so that the Spikes become Unkeyed, preventing identity contamination.

You mean like Set went through the cumbersome process of kidnapping Spooks descedents, and then keeping them in a hidden villlage underground for breeding purposes?

Kidnapping two people and spiking them is far easier. Hell, Set are experimenting with Hemalurgy so this is rather close to what they are already doing regularly.

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If it became public knowledge, then most Metalborn would probably just hide their powers if it ever became a trend to hunt metalborn. Overall what you prescribe would need Hemalurgy to become public knowledge, which sounds like a whole other can of worms, the idea of gaining 1/16 of the power the Lord Ruler had would just be putting chum in the waters. 

Yeah, this thread is talking about future technology. If Hemalurgic compounders became a regular thing, Hemalurgy absolutely is public.

Edited April 19 by therunner

[JustQuestin2004]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Just because character is sure does not mean they are right. Wax was hundred percent sure Lessie was dead, and he was dead wrong.

As such I'd trust Ars Arcanum over the story, since Ars Arcanum has been used to provide us, the readers, with additional information.
Or even more accurate information, like in the case of Allomantic table from hardcover HoA which contained the effect of Pure Atium long before most readers realized Atium in Era 1 was alloy.
 

Harmony cannot interfere much if at all, what he let slip is that moving pictures are possible, but absolutely no details about how to make it.
Letting Marsh know about how exactly to  hack together multiple Invested Arts is rather different sort of information, equivalent information would be letting it slip that Hemalurgic compounding is possible but no other details.

And nowhere did such information help them save the world, in fact saving the world was completely independent of knowing how to Compound with Hemalurgy. In fact, Wax was Harmony's chosen agent to save the world (what with being his Sword), so if he was to provide someone with that knowledge Wax makes more sense (especially since he is weak Mistborn and has Hemalurgic spikes).

Yup, which makes it more likely that Identity is not the only problem with Hemalurgic compounding.

Yeah, but we are talking about Hemalurgic Compounding, i.e. when someone makes themselves (or someone) Compounders on purpose. They absolutely would make themselves OP Compounder, why would they do anything else?

Imagine Miles with C-Steel, Wax would be dead.

Metalborn while rare are still something like 1:100 if I recall right. So Elendel alone has ~10000 -ish Mistings.
And there were multiple Steelrunners in the Terris Village (still probably in single digits), the one Bleeder killed was among the few that left and as such was plausible target.

You mean like Set went through the cumbersome process of kidnapping Spooks descedents, and then keeping them in a hidden villlage underground for breeding purposes?

Kidnapping two people and spiking them is far easier. Hell, Set are experimenting with Hemalurgy so this is rather close to what they are already doing regularly.

Yeah, this thread is talking about future technology. If Hemalurgic compounders became a regular thing, Hemalurgy absolutely is public.

I would love to refute some of this, but I can't. You've given me some stuff to ponder, so thanks.

Anyway, what other Era 4 tech could there be?

I haven't seen much talk about Sel so I'll start.

The possibilities for AonDor are effectively endless, with the caveat that it'd need to be created and operated by Elantrians. 

I could see Aon Tia being used for a one-way teleport to other worlds once they figure out coordinates for off-world stuff, although that wouldn't be super useful unless they could set up something on the other side to send things back. But we have seen Elantrians use their powers off of Sel so that's still a possibility, likely extremely complex, but possible.

For Forgery I could see more accessible education being very useful, imagine if you could give yourself diploma-level skills in any academic study whenever you want, since the more easy education is to acquire like public university, the more plausible you could make the Essence Marks. Or maybe Universal Soulstamps will become more common, we've already see Shai do some impressive stuff like make doors through walls, so there's quite a bit of potential there.

Honestly I'm pretty happy Universal Soulstamps are a thing, so a Forger can use their powers a bit more freely instead of needing to take hours or even days of study just to change a single thing.

For other Selish Arts, well we haven't really seen all that much yet. That'll probably change within the next decade.

[Isilel]

21 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Which would require the 'donor' to willingly store away their entire Identity even while dying. Which would be made even harder if the donor was an unwilling kidnapped victim.

 

Well, terminally sick and dying might agree to do it voluntarily, in order to provide for their families.

Honestly, the Southerners should have something like that embedded in their post-Catacendre culture, where their few Metalborn are concerned. Given how important Metallic Arts are for their survival and the Sovereign's/Kelsier's stance on Hemalurgy.