Godspren of non-Rosharan shards and other unique spren (thought experiment, not a theory)

[Benkinsky they/them]

Hey all!

I once made a post and then recently realized I never posted it here, sooo I'm finally remedying that.

Spren and their cousins (Seon, Skaze, Spirits/Nightmares...) exist on many different planets in the Cosmere. However, Roshar is so far the only one with some truly unique Spren. I'm talking Godspren, Unmade, Cusicesh.

We don't yet know what the Unmade are, but we know that the Godspren are basically 1 of Honor, 1 of Cultivation, 1 of both.

And Cusicesh (spoiler for the very new KWT interlude)

Spoiler

might be the Spren of the Iriali's travel and beliefs. I mean, it's an entire people's belief, i wouldn't be surprised if it had a cognitive representation. On Roshar, those take shape. Wonder if Cusicesh can leave Roshar. Or if its investiture might not be Rosharan. Anyway, I'm getting of track. Cusicesh is the kind of stuff to keep in mind for this post though

Now, imagine if other shards also had Godspren, and other things/entities/concepts in the Cosmere also had spren in the way that Uthirithu has the Sibling and the Iriali might have Cusicesh. Here's a few ideas I had, I would looove to hear more from other people!

 

Sel

Elantris would definitely have a Spren. Urithiru has/is one, and it's a giant Fabrial. Elantris is a Giant Aon. 100% Elantris would have a spren and I bet lots of people would worship it. There would definitely be Folklore that It directs the Shaod, and that you can sway it somehow. I'm unsure whether the ElantrisSpren would also be Devotion's Godspren or if that would be a seperate one. If Devotion could even have one anymore, that is.

If it can't, there would very likely be a Dorspren, roaming around on Sel, probably changing character depending on where it is. Wait, do the rumours that the Dor is gaining rudimentary sentience mean that the Dor is becoming a kind of Shard-Spren?

if a Godspren of Dominion existed, it would probably have ended up as a part of Shu-Dereth, worshipped somehow. I can imagine it being atrracted to Courts and Monarchs and other kinds of Rulers. A mythical creature associated with power and rulership, like a Lion/Dragon chimera or something. It would be a horrible omen for your dynasty if the Dominion-Godspren leaves the area of your capital. I imagine it might have an effect similar to emotional Allomancy, similar to what Vin describes feeling in the Lord Ruler's presence.

 

Scadrial

Ruin's Spren would very likely like somewhere in the Pits of Hathsin, or in the biggest most active Volcano. The only reasons for it not to be by the Pits would be because Ruin wants to hide his perpendicularity. Some kind of Fire/Ash being, think Ragnaros The Firelord, embodying a very local aspect of Ruin, the Volcanos, would make a lot of sense. While during Era 1, people didn't know that the Ashfalls were intended as something protective, they were still as iconic to Scadrial as the Highstorms are to Roshar. The Stormfather and its distant cousin, the... Ashfather? Ashbringer? Wait, that's a WoW sword. I'm sure there would be a really cool name, and a terrifying creature that it belongs to.

Another thing I could imagine is that it is attracted to death, and before Marsh, is basically Scadrial's Grim Reaper. A ghostly creature who likes to follow the Kolloss, looms around before and after battles, or who just appears where people die.

Preservation's Spren, in a timeline where Fuzz wasn't slowly dying, maybe in the thousand years before the last thousand pre WoA, could be similar to the Nightwatcher, residing somewhere relatively known, and maybe have the ability to "lock" certain things or aspects. Folklore would have many theories for why it can't prevent Death. Honestly, Lift's wish to not change would probably be so perfect for Preservation's Spren. There might be myths about a being like that existing until a thousand years ago, when the Lord Ruler inherited its powers.

I assume the two Scadrian Shards would have a Dual-Spren too, because their pact is so important for Scadrial as a planet. Although they are the only ones who know about it, which might mean there is no cognitive representation of it. Either one or two spren, one for the pact and one for Scadrial itself, which they created together. The Scadrialspren, for lack of a better name, would have powers related to Feruchemy, since that is an innately Scadrian power and one that Preservation and Ruins children can have. Maybe there's a rite for Woldbringers to travel to it before their death and "give" their remaining stores to it, most importantly all the knowledge in their copperminds. I assume we would have seen this Spren in Era 1, with Harmony Meeting it at some point and still wouldn't have understood he was the Hero of Ages. Then, upon his ascension, he would be able to tap into all the knowledge the Scadrialspren held, or he would have gotten that earlier.

Honestly, thinking about it now, the Volcanoes serve a nice mixed purpose, Preserving life on Scadrial by showering it in the scarred remains of deadly fire. I think a Dual-shard Godspren residing in the biggest Volcano on Scadrial is probably my favourite idea of these.

 

Single Shard planets

Autonomy's Spren is probably a plural, one for each Avatar? or are Pajti and the Sand Lord already kind of a Godspren of Autonomy? kind of seems like it. The way Dusk and supposedly other trappers think of the Islands, especially "Father" Patji, wouldn't surprise me for them to have Spren. Other than that, I'm out of ideas for this one, but I'd love to hear some!

 

Ambition's Spren might be what we no wknow as the Evil. Although I have a better theory on that by now.

 

Endowment's Spren could be somewhere on the Planet that we haven't seen yet. Like with the Elantrisspren, Folklore might confuse it and Endowment, like how Cultivation and the Nightwatcher are so close, assuming that it is the Endowmentspren that returns people. It's name would veerry likely be colour-related, and I imagine it shifting through rainbow colours like how Cusicesh shifts faces, or affect colours around it like how Susebron does. Endowment's Spren is a big candidate for the most powerful of the Godspren, having been Endowed with a lot of power, and probably having recieved guidance from her mother the same way the Nightwatcher does. Whether Endowment would genuinely teach it to return people, like how close Cultivation and the Nightwatcher are, or if Endowment would give it a seperate ability, I don't know. Maybe it would just be Nightwatcher Lite (Daywatcher? :D), just endowing you with a boon without a curse.

A cooler idea than that: Awakening is an End-Neutral System, right? Maybe the Daywatcher (patent pending) could give you boons, but in exchange for a lot of breath or something else. The more breath you bring, the more powerful your boon. Some people would pilger there to exchange their own breath for something, or maybe go with the collected 10-100 Breaths of their family or village for something bigger. Basically, you become "Awakened" somehow, Endowed with a gift.

It would definitely have immense amounts of Investiture/Breath to use and be the best awakener ever. The wildest idea I have for Endowment's Godspren is that it uses itself to Awaken, either jumping from (dead) host to host, or it's a Bondsmith-like Bond where you have a Breath even stronger than a Divine Breath.

 

Whimsy, Mercy, Valor, Virtuosity and Invention I know too little about to theorize.

 

Finally, an addition to this post that wasn't originally in it:

Canticle (Sunlit Man Spoilers)

Spoiler

If the Highstorm has a spren. And maybe the Ashfalls could have one. Then after enough generations of people fleeing from the terrible firestorm on Canticle, it could have one too. I mean, I imagine that the last thoughts of anyone who gets caught by the storm are pretty much the same: Dread, and dreadful awe at the horrible spectable before them. An awesome, terrible spren rides that storm, a being made of fire and destruction. Good Luck bonding that one...

 

Alright, that's it so far. Would love to hear other ideas for cousins of the Stormfather, Nightwatcher and Sibling

[Dofurion]

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

Elantris would definitely have a Spren. Urithiru has/is one, and it's a giant Fabrial. Elantris is a Giant Aon. 100% Elantris would have a spren and I bet lots of people would worship it. There would definitely be Folklore that It directs the Shaod, and that you can sway it somehow. I'm unsure whether the ElantrisSpren would also be Devotion's Godspren or if that would be a seperate one. If Devotion could even have one anymore, that is.

I have always found the idea curious that the entire Elantris selection mechanism was the work of a Seon in the center of the city (like the Wizard of Oz) and that that specific Seon is the Seon "Aon" or the Seon "Ela"

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

Preservation's Spren, in a timeline where Fuzz wasn't slowly dying, maybe in the thousand years before the last thousand pre WoA, could be similar to the Nightwatcher, residing somewhere relatively known, and maybe have the ability to "lock" certain things or aspects. Folklore would have many theories for why it can't prevent Death. Honestly, Lift's wish to not change would probably be so perfect for Preservation's Spren. There might be myths about a being like that existing until a thousand years ago, when the Lord Ruler inherited its powers.

Theoretically this is possible if Scadrial acquires the missing "field", and could be a Vinspren since she is now worshiped as part of the Mists.

[Faerie Braids she/her]

This is such a cool thought experiment!

Spoilers for Yumi and the Nightmare Painter:

Spoiler

I wonder if the the Hion could be Virtuosity's Godspren, in this case.

[Benkinsky they/them]

@Faerie BraidsI don't think you need to spoilerproof Yumi anymore, just TSM and KWT at the moment. Either way, how do you mean? Like, the Hion lines?

 

@Dofurion honestly yeah the Mist is a great call. There was already superstition about the Mist "taking" people, though more around the Mistwraiths, and the Mist is atleast partially made of Investiture, aaand now we have the Ascendant's fields up there... a Mistspren isn't far fetched. It probably would have had to be partially Vin's cognitive shadow, or so, since she was a splinter, so we probably missed the first chance for it to exist, but yeah. A spren hanging out up there?  You'd probably need to be a Coinshot or Mistborn to bond it lol

[Faerie Braids she/her]

26 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

@Faerie BraidsI don't think you need to spoilerproof Yumi anymore, just TSM and KWT at the moment. Either way, how do you mean? Like, the Hion lines?

Thanks for the tip; I couldn't remember if spoiler season was six months or one year and wanted to be careful. As for your question, there is no actual evidence that the Hion are Godspren, but if I recall correctly, most, if not all, of the hion lines of each colour are connected across Komashi, and two massive chunks of Virtuosity's investiture seem, to me, like decent candidates for Virtuosity's theoretical Godspren, similar to the Mists on Scadrial.

[Atlas333]

I love the thought experiment, but personally, I think it's more interesting to think of godspeed in terms of things that are incredibly important to a planet's culture. After all, a spren is heavily influenced by perception. If something is considered powerful than it's spren will be.

 

For example, as it was talked about before, I think that Scadrial's god spren would be the mist (maybe the "mist maiden" because it was described as appearing like Vin at times to wax). While this would be connected to Preservation it is primarily a manifestation of the planet's perception of the mists.

Similarly, the sun on Canticle would definitely have a spren. 

Beyond that, I don't know if there are any other major things that could spawn a spren. Elantris itself is a good pick and maybe a giant desert spren for Taldain? Maybe each sea on Lumar would have a spren? (maybe not a "godspren though).

Edited March 17, 2024 by Atlas333
Spelling

[CtrlAltDepressed]

17 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

just TSM and KWT at the moment.

What does KWT stand for? 

[Treamayne]

40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

What does KWT stand for? 

Benkinsky likely means SA5 (Winds and Truth - Formerly Knights of Wind and Truth)

[CtrlAltDepressed]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Benkinsky likely means SA5 (Winds and Truth - Formerly Knights of Wind and Truth)

Ah thank you. I was worried I had missed the secret project title reveal. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Ah thank you. I was worried I had missed the secret project title reveal. 

No worries. The SP5 title will be covered by Spoiler Policy and would have to be under a spoiler tag until the book releases anyway (or should be). 

[Elite01]

Really interesting, I wonder what the difference between an avatar of autonomy is and the stormfather. Is it a difference in power levels? intent? 
 

What would it take if Harmony heard about the stormfather and wanted to replicate it on Scadrial? We don’t know a lot but I imagine the process would be similar to making an avatar.

Would odiums spren be the everstorm? Or do the unmade/the thrill already check the box? 

and for Lumar I think a spren for each spore sea could make sense. But I could also see a spren for each moon. If I remember right there is a religion on Lumar that worships the moons.

and getting into the really obscure ideas because most shards are covered. Due to the location based aspect of the dor could each nation have a Godspren that is connected to the magic system? So could maipon, the home of soul forgery have a god spren? Or would it be to disconnected from a shard?

Edited March 17, 2024 by Elite01

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Elite01 said:

Really interesting, I wonder what the difference between an avatar of autonomy is and the stormfather. Is it a difference in power levels? intent? 

Ironically, it's about autonomy (not the Shard). A Splinter like the Stormfather is fully autonomous, while an Avatar is not. An Avatar is an aspect of their Shard, and they don't always have to know that they're an Avatar, but their Shard will always know. A Splinter has a free will and it's fully independent from their Shard. The Stormfather is also Honor's Cognitive Shadow, so there is also that. But the difference between Splinters and Avatars is a bit blurry, so there is a ground for theorizing if the Stormfather is Honor's Avatar (at this point he could be).

Spoiler

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So Bavadin's avatars, right; Autonomy's avatars.

Brandon Sanderson

One of Bavadin's avatars. 

Questioner

Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. 

Questioner

My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters?  

Brandon Sanderson

That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen... but yeah.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Argent

With all the new avatar lore from The Lost Metal, can and should the Stormfather be considered to be an avatar of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooooh, RAFO! What a wonderful question. There's some fertile ground for theorizing, there. I gave you the prologue of that so you could spend a few years theorizing, guys, so go ahead and go forth.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

2 hours ago, Elite01 said:

Would odiums spren be the everstorm? Or do the unmade/the thrill already check the box? 

Unmade fill that spot.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

[Argenti he/him]

On 3/17/2024 at 5:49 PM, alder24 said:

Stormfather is Honor's Avatar

Honestly, why not? He fits every other category I can think of, so sure, yeah, he's probably an avatar.