Sanderson and the Savants' Dilemma

[Dofurion]

I was originally going to post this on the Mistborn thread but I think it will be easier to discuss here.

I think Sanderson has a problem with the Savants concept. With this I don't mean that I don't like this concept (it's one of my favorites, honestly), but rather that Sanderson himself doesn't feel sure where to put the pros and cons of being a Savant.

From what he has hinted at in different WoBs, what he is looking for to be a Sevant are situations like Spook's or Kaza's. People who have used their power so much that they have greater access to it, but are negatively affected to the point of causing death. [ref1]
Then the problem arises when you have Savants that seem to not comply with this rule, as would be the case with Wax (although this has already been decanonized [look ref 1]) or most of the Seekers [ref2]

So what can be proposed in this regard? (of course it is just a proposal since everything falls into the hands of Sanderson and his team) Well, to continue with the spirit of the Savantism of the epigrafh 16 of The Hero of Ages, where there are more pronounced effects than others, but that these effects have more according to the era in which the character lives.

Example [allomancy, physical quadrant, external metal]: A Savant Coinshot or Lurcher could be able to create the shields that we have seen that Wax can make (This way we preserve the fact that Wax is a Savant but it will no longer be from resonance but from a single skill), that would be the advantage. Now the disadvantage would be that his body has been "allomantically charged." What does this mean? Well, although it has increased its output power and precision (consciously), unconsciously and while it is not burning metals, there is still a repellent effect (in the case of the Coinshot) that would continue to affect nearby metals, as if it were a kind of "drain". This would not affect the daily life of the allomancer, but already in Era 3 this would be a problem since they would be "magnets with legs" and would affect the electronics near them. You can even extend that to the fact that in Era 4 they cannot board ships that are not specially equipped for them, given the risk it would entail.

And even so, cases like Spook's may continue to exist, where the advantage itself ends up being counterproductive and vice versa.

Example [allomancy, enhancement quadrant, internal metal]: Both gnats as far as I'm concerned have a lot of potential when becoming savants, not only in terms of their powers, but also the stories that can be written with them.
For example, it is already known that an allomantic aluminum sevant can be exempt from many of the damages caused by large amounts of investiture [ref3, ref4] and even speculating a little, they could be invisible to the sight of a Shard when burning aluminum. (like Renarin), But they could also be exempt from the benefits of the investiture since having such a pristine soul would not be able to bond to a Spren or receive Breaths.
As for duralumin, a savant of that metal could extend the duration of the burst of power (let's take the arbitrary limit of 16 heartbeats) but when it is not burning the metal its condition would be very similar to that of a Drab, but as an advantage of That since his soul is so easily malleable, it would be easy for him to access certain types of invested arts.

Note: In fact I have the idea of a fanfic in which one arrives in Roshar for X situations, and is undehipmently stunned in a situation, more or less comedy, since he gave him to burn a duralumin being there and ended up attracting and linking to the nine types of radiant Sprens and have to deal with their disparate personalities.

Anyway, what do you think of the subject and what would you do if you are in your hands to address it?

Edited March 16, 2024 by Dofurion

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

I was originally going to post this on the Mistborn thread but I think it will be easier to discuss here.

I think Sanderson has a problem with the Savants concept. With this I don't mean that I don't like this concept (it's one of my favorites, honestly), but rather that Sanderson himself doesn't feel sure where to put the pros and cons of being a Savant.

From what he has hinted at in different WoBs, what he is looking for to be a Sevant are situations like Spook's or Kaza's. People who have used their power so much that they have greater access to it, but are negatively affected to the point of causing death. [ref1]
Then the problem arises when you have Savants that seem to not comply with this rule, as would be the case with Wax (although this has already been decanonized [look ref 1]) or most of the Seekers [ref2]

So what can be proposed in this regard? (of course it is just a proposal since everything falls into the hands of Sanderson and his team) Well, to continue with the spirit of the Savantism of the epigrafh 16 of The Hero of Ages, where there are more pronounced effects than others, but that these effects have more according to the era in which the character lives.

Example [allomancy, physical quadrant, external metal]: A Savant Coinshot or Lurcher could be layers of creating the shields that we have seen that Wax can do (thus we keep that Wax is a Savant but it will no longer be of the resonance if not of a single skill), that would be the advantage. Now the disadvantage would be that his body has been "charged alomantically" What does this mean? Well, although it has increased its output power and precision (consciously), unconsciously and while it is not burning metals, there is still a repellent effect (in the case of the Coinshot) that would continue to affect nearby metals, as if it were a kind of "drain". This would not affect the daily life of the allomancer, but already in Era 3 this would be a problem since they would be "magnets with legs" and would affect the electronics near them. You can even extend that to the fact that in Era 4 they cannot board ships that are not specially equipped for them, given the risk it would entail.

And even so, cases like Spook's may continue to exist, where the advantage itself ends up being counterproductive and vice versa.

Example [allomancy, enhancement quadrant, internal metal]: Both gnats as far as I'm concerned have a lot of potential when becoming savants, not only in terms of their powers, but also the stories that can be written with them.
For example, it is already known that an allomantic aluminum sevant can be exempt from many of the damages caused by large amounts of investiture [ref3, ref4] and even speculating a little, they could be invisible to the sight of a Shard when burning aluminum. (like Renarin), But they could also be exempt from the benefits of the investiture since having such a pristine soul would not be able to bond to a Spren or receive Breaths.
As for duralumin, a savant of that metal could extend the duration of the burst of power (let's take the arbitrary limit of 16 heartbeats) but when it is not burning the metal its condition would be very similar to that of a Drab, but as an advantage of That since his soul is so easily malleable, it would be easy for him to access certain types of invested arts.

Note: In fact I have the idea of a fanfic in which one arrives in Roshar for X situations, and is undehipmently stunned in a situation, more or less comedy, since he gave him to burn a duralumin being there and ended up attracting and linking to the nine types of radiant Sprens and have to deal with their disparate personalities.

Anyway, what do you think of the subject and what would you do if you are in your hands to address it?

Personally, I don't know that each type of Savantism needs a "unique" effect as a consequence to be thematically sound. Simply having an addiction or biological dependency on Burning/Tapping the metal in question would be pretty bad, and many forms of Savantism that don't drastically change the target could have smaller, more reasonable benefits, such as having a slight boost to range, power, and/or control.

[Treamayne]

Interesting analysis.

5 hours ago, Dofurion said:

unconsciously and while it is not burning metals, there is still a repellent effect (in the case of the Coinshot) that would continue to affect nearby metals

However, a coinshot would never get an allomantic effect without burning - there is no Kinetic investiture to provide the effect. 

Please note that with Savantism either - <something> is increased while employing the magic, and the same <something> is depressed when not employing the magic - or - <something> is increased where you want, but also increased where you do not want.

For example, when Spook was not burning Tin all of his senses were deadened and dulled in proportion to the amount of gained sensitivity while Burning Tin.

WIth Kaza, she had increased control and range (amount of material per use) for making things change while using her soulcaster, but increased difficulty in preventing herself from changing too (along with the physical repurcussions of too much Nan essence in her spiritweb). 

 

[Dofurion]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Interesting analysis.

However, a coinshot would never get an allomantic effect without burning - there is no Kinetic investiture to provide the effect. 

Please note that with Savantism either - <something> is increased while employing the magic, and the same <something> is depressed when not employing the magic - or - <something> is increased where you want, but also increased where you do not want.

For example, when Spook was not burning Tin all of his senses were deadened and dulled in proportion to the amount of gained sensitivity while Burning Tin.

WIth Kaza, she had increased control and range (amount of material per use) for making things change while using her soulcaster, but increased difficulty in preventing herself from changing too (along with the physical repurcussions of too much Nan essence in her spiritweb). 

 

Well, the truth is I based it mostly on the cases of Kaza and Ithi for this, after all the Savants Soulcasters have permanent modifications to their bodies. In that case a Savant allomancer could (and I say could since I'm a bit speculating on the mechanics) acquire a certain "residual charge", in which his body acts like a magnetized metal (you know, metals that were not originally magnetic become be so due to being in contact for a long time with metals that already were). In the end the effects I propose would go unnoticed enough not to affect what has been written so far.
Wax, for example, couldn't accidentally move a knife when trying to grab it, but he would end up accidentally damaging a USB stick he touches.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Well, the truth is I based it mostly on the cases of Kaza and Ithi for this, after all the Savants Soulcasters have permanent modifications to their bodies. In that case a Savant allomancer could (and I say could since I'm a bit speculating on the mechanics) acquire a certain "residual charge", in which his body acts like a magnetized metal (you know, metals that were not originally magnetic become be so due to being in contact for a long time with metals that already were). In the end the effects I propose would go unnoticed enough not to affect what has been written so far.
Wax, for example, couldn't accidentally move a knife when trying to grab it, but he would end up accidentally damaging a USB stick he touches.

But what is happening with Kaza is the same that happened to Koloss and Chimerae - the Spiritweb is damaged, and that damage reflects through to their physical body in the form of deformities. Kaza started losing pieces of her body to the Nan essence (as expressed in her spiritweb), Koloss had their skin turn into a kind of one-size fits-most unitard they had to grow into (then break when grown beyond it's size), Bleeder's Chimerae deformed into a "primal" state without losing some of their human attributes:

Spoiler

SoS Ch 21

Quote

 

The things prowled closer. Heads emerged from the darkness, faces that twisted human features into something more canine. He counted five total. These creatures were no longer bipedal, but traces of humanity laced them—fingers that were too long, hands with opposable thumbs. The joints bent the wrong way at the elbows and knees, and the eyes … the eyes were dead. Pure black.

“What has she done to you?” Wax whispered at them.

 

Quote

Michael Rap

We know that Soulcasters who Soulcast long enough become savants, and that manifests physically. Is what happens to people during the Shaod physically related to savantism?

Brandon Sanderson

"Related?" You gotta watch out for terms like that in detailed Cosmere questions because of course they're "related." Are they "related" in a significant way that you should draw parallels between? Probably not. They're related in that being highly Invested does things to you, so yes. But savanthood is a different style of your Spiritual DNA being rewritten. I mean, that is what's happening, when you're becoming Elantrian, so... how about I give a "halfway in between significant and insignificant?" Moderately significant relationship between these two things, but not a direct relationship.

Sorry, that terminology is kind of weird for me to parse with "Is it related".

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

Quote

Questioner

So Allomantic Savants. So I was curious-- That system-- When that happens, is it purely physiological, or is there something else happening in terms of--

Brandon Sanderson

Uhh, it's physiological in a cosmere sense, but that can involve your Cognitive and Spiritual aspects.

Questioner

I guess the question there is, are there other similar processes to savantism with other--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah you've seen it. So, Soulcasters.

Argent

Where their skin turns--

Brandon Sanderson

Where they're slowly being-- their spirit is slowly being merged and infused with Investiture that is having Physical ramifications. It's the same thing.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Savantism physical changes are not about expressing the magic in the body - they are about expressing the spiritual damage caused by the magic in the bodies. Sometimes (like Kaza) those can be confused.

[alder24]

17 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Example [allomancy, physical quadrant, external metal]: A Savant Coinshot or Lurcher could be able to create the shields that we have seen that Wax can make (This way we preserve the fact that Wax is a Savant but it will no longer be from resonance but from a single skill), that would be the advantage.

Just to point out, Wax was not the only one able to create steel bubbles - he met a Coinshot in the train scene in BoM who was doing the same thing. This is not the effect of Savanthood or resonance, it's pure skill. BoM ch 7:

Quote

The brute smiled. Doors still rattled around him—he was a Coinshot, obviously, Pushing out with a bubble like the one Wax used. It even pressed a little on the metalminds Wax wore on his upper arms, which were resistant to Allomancy.

 

17 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Now the disadvantage would be that his body has been "allomantically charged." What does this mean? Well, although it has increased its output power and precision (consciously), unconsciously and while it is not burning metals, there is still a repellent effect (in the case of the Coinshot) that would continue to affect nearby metals, as if it were a kind of "drain".

That's impossible without burning metals. You need to drain power from SR, you need kinetic investiture for that. Your body being made out of smoke isn't the same as using Allomancy without burning metals. 

What if they just got addicted to the feeling of freedom and soaring up in the sky? Or the moment they stop burning they feel blind without their steelsight. It's not perfect but looking at how Spook felt without tin it fits more. Savantism feels more like addiction both with Spook and Kaza - without using their power they feel dull. And that's fine by me.

17 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Anyway, what do you think of the subject and what would you do if you are in your hands to address it?

Duralumin savant would be useless. I think some powers have to have weaker effects of Savanthood because many powers aren't that useful on their own, or have some strong, visible effect - just like Sazed told in epigraphs. But we will see what Brandon will do with Savants. 

Edited March 16, 2024 by alder24

[Treamayne]

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Just to point out, Wax was not the only one able to create steel bubbles - he met a Coinshot in the train scene in BoM who was doing the same thing. This is not the effect of Savanthood or resonance, it's pure skill. BoM ch 7:

Quote

The brute smiled. Doors still rattled around him—he was a Coinshot, obviously, Pushing out with a bubble like the one Wax used. It even pressed a little on the metalminds Wax wore on his upper arms, which were resistant to Allomancy.

I think that is still in doubt, because it is possible he was using an A-Steel Allo Grenade and Wax (having not seen them before this point) did not know how the lack of Intent made it affect everything in a radius. So, he might have been using a bubble like Wax, or Wax might be misinterpreting the situatino due to lack of knowledge.

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think that is still in doubt, because it is possible he was using an A-Steel Allo Grenade and Wax (having not seen them before this point) did not know how the lack of Intent made it affect everything in a radius. So, he might have been using a bubble like Wax, or Wax might be misinterpreting the situatino due to lack of knowledge.

That was a Coinshot. He was holding a gun a moment later without pushing it, then pushing on Wax's vials after Wax grabbed them from brute's side, but not on Ranette's spheres. An Allo grenade wouldn't work like that, it would have been pushing on everything equally. He had no time to turn on the grenade, he was laying on the ground being busy with not falling off the train. And in the next chapter the brute was once agian using a targeted Steelpush. He was a Coinshot. BoM ch 7:

Quote

The brute raised the shotgun as if to fire from the hip.
[...]
Wax tackled him in the chest. The man grunted, stumbling backward, but caught himself before he toppled off the train. Wax didn’t care.
He was after the gunbelt, which had fallen at the man’s feet. He snatched it with fingers still wet with blood. It held Ranette’s two cord devices, along with a single, glorious metal vial.
Wax yanked it out, tucking the gunbelt into his waistband. However, the vial lurched in his fingers. He snatched it, holding on tightly, but the brute’s Push sent him backward across the train’s roof in a skid. He slipped and fell to his knees, catching the side of the train.
The Coinshot kept Pushing. Wax clung to the rooftop with his left hand, but his right arm—which held the metal vial—strained in its socket. The brute smiled and started walking forward. Each step closer let him Push harder.
[...]
Ranette’s devices. They hung from the gunbelt tucked into his waist. Could he use those? How? Beneath him, the train started across the bridge.

BoM ch 8:

Quote

Something Pushed his gun out of his hand. He spun, finding the large bandit from before lumbering toward him across the roof. He’d left the larger group of bandits on the next rooftop over.
You again, Wax thought with a growl, dropping his gunbelt, but resting his foot on it to keep it from blowing away. The man came running toward Wax. With the brute very close, Wax knelt and yanked out Ranette’s sphere device.
The bandit Pushed on that, of course—causing the sphere to leap backward to the side. Wax kept a firm hold on the cord, wrapping it with a yank around the bandit’s leg.
The bandit stared down in confusion.
Wax Pushed, shoving the sphere into a batch of trees, engaging its hooks. “I believe this is your stop.”

 

[strmblsd he/him]

I thinks savantism is stretching the spirit web which if stretched too far could do serious damage to the person. We can see throughout the books things that hurt stretch or break the spirit web causing problems with their soul and mental health such as hemalurgy poking holes in their spirit web and making cracks allowing for them to be affected by shards easier and controlled too. So savantism might have some effects like that leaving them open to attacks on their soul and stuff.