Braize should be one big city

[Nightstar The Bright]

Quote

The place is barren, devoid of life, merely a dark sky, endless windswept crags, and a broken landscape . And a lot of souls, a lot of not particularly sane souls.

Rhythm of War chapter 89

Its been four and a half thousand years since the fused returned to Roshar, even without proper tools and materials they should still have built palaces on Braize. 

Im going to assume that even without a body the Fused can still sing the song of prayer to acquire voidlight. Assuming they’re in the cognitive realm they could use this light to manifest objects. Raboniel seems to suggest that they are actually in the physical realm however (see the quote above). If they are in the physical realm voidlight wouldn’t even be needed to manifest things and the Fused could begin building immediately. Assuming they had voidlight the Fused could even use the surges to aid them in the building of their palaces.

Braize probably doesn’t have most of the conventional materials you would use to build your palace, but it should still have some things. For one there should be plenty of stone around, and when you’ve got plenty of time to carve it you can build almost anything out of stone. I think that if they get creative enough they can build some very nice structures. They don’t have tools either, but once again, they could make at least some tools, and for other things they could find techniques to replicate the outcome. 

So why isn’t Braize one big city filled with palaces?

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Rhythm of War chapter 89

Its been four and a half thousand years since the fused returned to Roshar, even without proper tools and materials they should still have built palaces on Braize. 

Im going to assume that even without a body the Fused can still sing the song of prayer to acquire voidlight. Assuming they’re in the cognitive realm they could use this light to manifest objects. Raboniel seems to suggest that they are actually in the physical realm however (see the quote above). If they are in the physical realm voidlight wouldn’t even be needed to manifest things and the Fused could begin building immediately. Assuming they had voidlight the Fused could even use the surges to aid them in the building of their palaces.

Braize probably doesn’t have most of the conventional materials you would use to build your palace, but it should still have some things. For one there should be plenty of stone around, and when you’ve got plenty of time to carve it you can build almost anything out of stone. I think that if they get creative enough they can build some very nice structures. They don’t have tools either, but once again, they could make at least some tools, and for other things they could find techniques to replicate the outcome. 

So why isn’t Braize one big city filled with palaces?

Disagree that Raboniel suggests Fused/Voidspren are in PR - she talks about PR Braize with Navani, but they are souls. They might have been in both PR and CR, like spren on Roshar.

We know also that Fused are asleep while on Braize, awaiting a new Desolation. RoW ch 14:

Spoiler

That wasn’t unexpected. Some of the Fused on Braize slumbered, or … hibernated? Meditated?

Those would have no need for any city. Mindless Voidspren like Stormspren would need no city as well. Many of Voidspren/Fused souls are so twisted that they don't have a sharply defined form, they don't resemble Singers anymore, they are just vague masses of energy, rather than a form like Pattern or Syl have in CR. I doubt those kinds of Spren/Fused would want to have a city, I doubt they want anything at this point, they're insane. OB ch 116:

Quote

Hundreds upon hundreds of strange spren stood in the lake of beads that marked the shore of Thaylen City. They looked vaguely humanoid, though they were twisted and odd, like shimmering dark light. More the scribbled outlines of people, like drawings she’d done in a maddened state.
[...]
She suddenly felt something odd. Like a rhythm, but oppressive, demanding. It shook the very air, and the ground beneath her feet trembled. Lightning in the clouds behind seemed to flash to this rhythm, and in a moment she saw that the area around her was filled with ghostly spren.
Those are the spirits of the dead, she realized. Fused who haven’t yet chosen a body. Most were twisted to the point that she barely recognized them as singers. Two were roughly the size of buildings.
[...]
Venli got to watch the thunderclasts awaken.
Among the waiting spirits were two larger masses of energy—souls so warped, so mangled, they didn’t seem singer at all. One crawled into the stone ground, somehow inhabiting it like a spren taking residence in a gemheart. The stone became its form.

 

Only Ulim-like Voidspren might want it, if they weren't slumbering as well. But another reason why they wouldn't want to build anything on Braize is that the planet is their prison. They don't want to be there, they want to be on Roshar. Building homes in their prison would make them less willing to actually fight for Roshar and every time they could even consider Braize as their home. Neither them or Odium wants this to happen. And if most is already mindless, asleep, or busy torturing Heralds on Braize, why bother with building anything at all?

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Im going to assume that even without a body the Fused can still sing the song of prayer to acquire voidlight.

This is an interesting assumption. One that i would be inclined to agree with. It does raise some other questions though. 

 

Namely for me - can anyone sing the song of prayer and receive voidlight? Can kelsier figure out the words (and probably intent as well) and get voidlight for free? Combining that with the tones investigations of ROW and it seems this might be a much easier way for ghostbloods to get pure investiture than risking purifing the dor. I could see a future where spaceships have awakened minds that sing the song of prayer to refuel the ship.

 

In addition to that, would a fused on Nalthis still receive voidlight when singing the song of prayer? I would think so, given that shards are technically everywhere and you would be specifically invoking Odium. 

 

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Many of Voidspren/Fused souls are so twisted that they don't have a sharply defined form, they don't resemble Singers anymore, they are just vague masses of energy, rather than a form like Pattern or Syl have in CR.

We see that when Kaladin is on Braize, even though it is a vision / spiritual experience (hes not actually physically transported to the planet) that he is still effected by the winds. Why wouldn't the Fused as well? It seems like that would be the main method of torture for the Heralds as the fused would also be effected by the winds, making them unable to perform other torture. I would think that would be reason enough to construct some structures at least. 

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Namely for me - can anyone sing the song of prayer and receive voidlight? Can kelsier figure out the words (and probably intent as well) and get voidlight for free?

Probably anyone can sing it, but not everyone would get Voidlight. The song draws Odium's attention, I doubt he would give others Voidlight. RoW ch 67:

Quote

Then she took out a Voidlight sphere. She could get these without too much trouble—but she didn’t dare sing the Song of Prayer to create them herself. She worried about drawing Odium’s attention; he seemed to be ignoring her these days, and she’d rather it remain that way

 

20 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

We see that when Kaladin is on Braize, even though it is a vision / spiritual experience (hes not actually physically transported to the planet) that he is still effected by the winds.

As you noticed, Kaladin experienced a vision, so we don't really know what conditions are on Braize's surface. From Wit we know that Braize barely has any atmosphere and that means any winds there wouldn't be that strong (Martian winds can reach up to 150 km/h but Mars has only 1% of Earth's atmosphere, such winds would be comparable to a light breeze on Earth). I'm guessing this was something Odium added to Kaladin's vision. WoR ch 80:

Quote

“Wit?” Kaladin asked. “How are you here?”
“I’m not,” Wit said. “And neither are you. This is another planet, or it looks like one—and not a pleasant one, mind you. The kind without lights. No Stormlight ones, gaseous ones, or even electric ones. Damn place barely has an atmosphere.”
He glanced at Kaladin, then smiled. “You’re asleep. The enemy is sending you a vision, similar to those the Stormfather sent Dalinar. I’m not certain how Odium isolated you though. It’s hard for Shards to invade minds like this except in a specific set of circumstances.”

 

33 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

It seems like that would be the main method of torture for the Heralds as the fused would also be effected by the winds, making them unable to perform other torture.

Heralds were tortured in more "conventional" way, WoK Prelude:

Quote

Kalak felt something within him break at the admission. How long had it been? Centuries, perhaps millennia, of torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin o his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone. He could smell it. Almighty, he could smell it!

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Probably anyone can sing it, but not everyone would get Voidlight. The song draws Odium's attention, I doubt he would give others Voidlight

Is your understanding that every time a fused sings the song of prayer Odium actively dispenses voidlight? It seems like an automatic mechanism that he could choose to pay attention to at a given point only if he wanted to

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I'm guessing this was something Odium added to Kaladin's vision

What are your thoughts on what Hoid did in that bubble? I saw a theory that he was burning bendalloy, which i love, but it does seem implausible given that metals rarity on Scadrial, much less Roshar. 

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Centuries, perhaps millennia, of torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin o his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone. He could smell it. Almighty, he could smell it!

So is this actually being done to them physically, or is it like Kaladins vision, where he feels physical effects while in a spiritual form? If its truly physical torture, then the fused and heralds must have physical bodies on braize. 

[Returned]

Interesting. I hadn't really thought that the Fused would bother with much building or even society on Braize, figuring that they wouldn't have much in the way of materials on a barren world, are immortal (and probably not really corporeal), and are permeated with Odium's hateful essence. Why build anything?

In my mind they were just roving around trying to find and torture the Heralds, maybe practicing their fighting (conventional) or Surgebinding (if they have access to Voidlight there), then passing the time idly or slumbering as their hatred intensified until they were returned to Roshar for a Desolation. It's not even clear that they have bodies, in a physical sense, there since they only get bodies on Roshar via possession of an existing Singer.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Is your understanding that every time a fused sings the song of prayer Odium actively dispenses voidlight? It seems like an automatic mechanism that he could choose to pay attention to at a given point only if he wanted to

It draws his attention. He doesn't always pay enough attention, but he likes when others have to rely on him. The moment he realized someone who isn't his is stealing Voidlight from him, he would block them off from accessing Voidlight:

Spoiler

Argent

I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all.

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them.

They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are.

The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense?

Argent

I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

What are your thoughts on what Hoid did in that bubble? I saw a theory that he was burning bendalloy, which i love, but it does seem implausible given that metals rarity on Scadrial, much less Roshar. 

I've never really thought about it. Yeah, A-bendalloy would make sense, but that's not enough. I think Hoid sneakily broke into Odium's vision, just like Odium broke into Dalinar's vision a few times, and hijacked it (using Connection). Using also A-bendalloy to avoid detection makes a lot of sense. They both weren't on Braize, this was happening in the same place where Dalinar's visions takes place (SR?), that's why I think this is the same thing Odium (and Lift) did.

2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

So is this actually being done to them physically, or is it like Kaladins vision, where he feels physical effects while in a spiritual form? If its truly physical torture, then the fused and heralds must have physical bodies on braize. 

I highly doubt it's something happening to them physically - PR of Braize is inhospitable as we know, it makes little sense for Heralds to be there physically, especially if there are no bodies for Fused to take over, no Singers for Voidspren to inhabit. They are on Braize as souls and souls only, so Heralds would also be bodiless in their Cognitive form in CR. Mistborn Secret History spoilers:

Spoiler

Just like Kelsier was beaten up by Hoid and felt pain, the same thing would work with Heralds. Sure, it's a matter of perception, but the torture would probably affect not just their cognitive form, but their minds and spirits directly. 

I don't think this would happen in visions like with Kaladin. The Stormfather said they were able to hide for some time before they were caught and tortured and they most likely lack a strong Connection to Odium for him to bring them into visions. That leaves their minds and souls being tortured directly in CR. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 hours ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Im going to assume that even without a body the Fused can still sing the song of prayer to acquire voidlight.

The fighting style of Lezian the Pursuer argues against that. He would be a fool to not refill his reserves while being discorporated.

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Im going to assume that even without a body the Fused can still sing the song of prayer to acquire voidlight.

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The fighting style of Lezian the Pursuer argues against that. He would be a fool to not refill his reserves while being discorporated.

Now I think of it, it's not even that. Voidlight is a PHYSICAL state of investiture, it's held by a body, it's held by a gemstone in Singer's body. Without a body, they can't hold it, they can't use it.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Now I think of it, it's not even that. Voidlight is a PHYSICAL state of investiture, it's held by a body, it's held by a gemstone in Singer's body. Without a body, they can't hold it

Debatable. Windspren can glue things together. Whence comes the Investiture to do so?

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

they can't use it.

You can use Investiture right as you acquire it.

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

That is what allomancers do.

 

[NameIess]

On 3/5/2024 at 4:12 PM, Oltux72 said:

The fighting style of Lezian the Pursuer argues against that. He would be a fool to not refill his reserves while being discorporated.

I don’t think he can speak while discorporated, and even if he could, it it probably faster to just go get Voidlight than to sing the song of prayer.

[DiePie]

Slightly different, but I like the idea of Braize containing the ruins of old cities, perhaps failed colonies of Ashyn refugees who tried to find a new home on Braize, but ended up failing. It would provide a neat mystery as a background for future exploration, help characterize both the refugees and the current residents, and add to the eerie atmosphere that Braize has.