Could Ba-AdoMishram create Mistborn?

[rywall182]

There has been a lot of discussion and theorizing, surrounding why the ghostbloods want Ba-AdoMishram. I think there are several reasons- but there’s one possibility I haven’t seen, any discussion around- Could it be that Kelsier believes BAM could bestow metallurgic abilities to Scadrians? 

Kelsier is desperate to defend Scadrial- we saw this at the end of The Lost Metal- he tells Sazed that they need access to their most powerful resource, Mistborn and feruchemist- he asked Sazed: “is there a way to expand our access to metal born? They have the seed inside them don’t they, the heart of preservation?”

BAM was able to connect directly to the singers and grant forms of power. To quote directly from RoW Chapter 114: 

“I’ve been speaking to Kelek, the Herald. He seems to think the reason you’re hunting him is because of an Unmade. Ba-AdoMishram? The one who Connected to the singers long ago, giving them forms of power? The one who, when trapped, stole the singers’ minds and made them into parshmen?
“Why do you want the gemstone that holds Ba-Ado-Mishram, Mraize? What are you intending to do with it? What power do the Ghostbloods seek with a thing that can bind the minds of an entire people?”

I don’t think it’s a leap to assume Kelsier could believe BAM could bestow metallurgic abilities. How the mechanics of that could work I have no idea, maybe it’s not possible- allowmantic abilities can be granted by lerasium, but we know it existed before the ascension of the lord ruler- perhaps that was merely a result of “having the seed of preservation inside of them”, instead of needing to draw directly from preservation’s body in the form of lerasium. The origins of feruchemy is entirely unknown- perhaps a result of scadrians being of both ruin and preservation. 

Could BAM bring this out of them, by connecting to Scadrians? BAM functioned as a lesser Odium before granting forms of power. The key difference is that this method of using investiture seems to be external, versus being born with it as on Scadrial- however, all forms of investiture originally are bestowed somehow (lerasium). 

Yes, BAM is of Odium not Harmony- but perhaps BAM could enhance those latent abilities, bring them to the surface.

I’m not sure, all of this speculation- but given Kelsier’s overwhelming drive (protect Scadrial) and Shallans quote above, it seems like a strong motivating factor for wanting BAM.

[Lord Spirit]

I'm not super knowledgeable about BAM and all of the relevant terms, but I think this is a very plausible theory. Kelsier wants his powers back and has spent a lot of time and effort over the past 300 years trying to get them back. However, as of The Lost Metal, he hasn't succeeded, so either his plan for BAM is stopped by Shallan, or it doesn't work for granting the metallic arts, at least not for Kelsier.

[Quantus]

It's possible but I suspect it would be a non-trivial hurdle to Connect BAM in the necessary ways for them to Both Connect to Scadrians and provide Preservation's Investiture. But as I type that I wonder if it's not just a matter of feeding BAM some large quantity of Lerasium, which does exactly that.  

The Nightwatcher on the other hand... We know she can make willful and permanent changes to the spiritweb directly, so if provided with a template/example she could probably recreate most Powers (other than things like the Divine that probably take a specific type of Sliver).  

[JustQuestin2004]

Maybe they've discovered that BAM can Bond with someone and make them the Voidbringer equivalent of a Bondsmith, without the need of binding Oaths or trying to pry Ishar's Blade from him.

[Argenti]

Also! BAM could probably take stormlight off roshar!

[alder24]

6 hours ago, rywall182 said:

There has been a lot of discussion and theorizing, surrounding why the ghostbloods want Ba-AdoMishram. I think there are several reasons- but there’s one possibility I haven’t seen, any discussion around- Could it be that Kelsier believes BAM could bestow metallurgic abilities to Scadrians? 

Kelsier is desperate to defend Scadrial- we saw this at the end of The Lost Metal- he tells Sazed that they need access to their most powerful resource, Mistborn and feruchemist- he asked Sazed: “is there a way to expand our access to metal born? They have the seed inside them don’t they, the heart of preservation?”

BAM was able to connect directly to the singers and grant forms of power. To quote directly from RoW Chapter 114: 

“I’ve been speaking to Kelek, the Herald. He seems to think the reason you’re hunting him is because of an Unmade. Ba-AdoMishram? The one who Connected to the singers long ago, giving them forms of power? The one who, when trapped, stole the singers’ minds and made them into parshmen?
“Why do you want the gemstone that holds Ba-Ado-Mishram, Mraize? What are you intending to do with it? What power do the Ghostbloods seek with a thing that can bind the minds of an entire people?”

I don’t think it’s a leap to assume Kelsier could believe BAM could bestow metallurgic abilities. How the mechanics of that could work I have no idea, maybe it’s not possible- allowmantic abilities can be granted by lerasium, but we know it existed before the ascension of the lord ruler- perhaps that was merely a result of “having the seed of preservation inside of them”, instead of needing to draw directly from preservation’s body in the form of lerasium. The origins of feruchemy is entirely unknown- perhaps a result of scadrians being of both ruin and preservation. 

Could BAM bring this out of them, by connecting to Scadrians? BAM functioned as a lesser Odium before granting forms of power. The key difference is that this method of using investiture seems to be external, versus being born with it as on Scadrial- however, all forms of investiture originally are bestowed somehow (lerasium). 

Yes, BAM is of Odium not Harmony- but perhaps BAM could enhance those latent abilities, bring them to the surface.

I’m not sure, all of this speculation- but given Kelsier’s overwhelming drive (protect Scadrial) and Shallans quote above, it seems like a strong motivating factor for wanting BAM.

This theory holds merit. But to do that, BAM has to be able to manipulate any type of Connections, like Bondsmiths can. I'm not sure she would be able to do that much. Allomancy is just a strong Connection to Preservation, Feruchemy is probably similar. BAM Connected herself to Singers, granting them all forms of powers, acting like a Voidspren for every Singer. If she just Connect herself to every Scadrian, I think she can give them some forms of Odium powers - not Metallic Arts. That's because she is of Odium, her soul is of Odium, powers she grants are of Odium as well. That's why she has to be able to manipulate Connections directly, I don't know if she can do it, but that's possible. 

However, I don't think this is the case. Radiants were very surprised that Mishram Connected herself to Singers, they didn't know how she did that. It seems that Mishram's ability to Connect is something she had learned shortly before the False Desolation. Maybe she can learn to do more, but her Connection abilities are limited in some way. OB ch 80 epigraphs:

Quote

"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."

Another reason why Ghostbloods are so interested with BAM is that she can provide Voidlight - they don't have to rely on Highstorms and Oathgates, they can have Voidlight on Scadrial whenever they need it. And if she can do with Connection more than just Connect herself to others, then she might be able to unkey Voidlight she provides.

[Returned]

Interesting theory! Maybe, and I don't have more to add on the specifics of the Mistborn goal. I can see why Kelsier would want such a thing (he was a great Allomancer) but I have to assume that given his skill at planning, organizing, thinking laterally, and his long experience as a non-Allomancer (way more than he ever had as one), he might not think in such specific or narrow terms.

But what I think is more in keeping with the current state of the Cosmere, generally, is that Ba-Ado-Mishram is very powerful (as one of the greatest class of spren), has powers that can work in ways others were not aware of and likely still are not (granting forms of power to the Singers was a shock to everyone, and her imprisonment had consequences that were also unexpected), and she's not in the pocket of a Shard (that we know of, at least; she's willing to strike out on her own, perhaps like Sja-anat).

Whatever specific benefits she can offer to someone who wins her favor or allegiance, I think that the possibilities she offers are inescapably attractive to people involved in Cosmere affairs at the highest level. She's a game-changer in any struggle on any Shardworld (or elsewhere), and all the more so for being out of commission for so long. Having her on your side means the game can change in your favor, and her being on someone else's side means the game becomes harder for you.

While Odium's influence on her current nature is undeniable we don't know what she was like after she was "made" and before she was "unmade" (as Sja-anat put it)-- I wouldn't limit our assumptions of her nature or powers to being only Odium-derived. Her fundamental nature and capabilities may even pre-date the Shattering, which would have reality-shaking implications in a web of conflicts defined by the Shards contending against one another. A portion of magical power, capacity, and will which is not inherently bound by the compartmentalizations of reality those Shards have imposed... it changes everything. Even a slim chance at that would be worth a lot for anyone partiicpating in those conflicts.

[rywall182]

17 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

I'm not super knowledgeable about BAM and all of the relevant terms, but I think this is a very plausible theory. Kelsier wants his powers back and has spent a lot of time and effort over the past 300 years trying to get them back. However, as of The Lost Metal, he hasn't succeeded, so either his plan for BAM is stopped by Shallan, or it doesn't work for granting the metallic arts, at least not for Kelsier.

 

A few thoughts here:

The plan for BAM need not have come to fruition by TLM, for this theory to be valid- the conflict is almost certainly on-going. Continuing holding BAM captive throughout SLA 5, isn't a shut down of their plan, its not an invalidation- just a delay (which would explain why they dont have access to BAM yet in TLM)- and I think that is the most likely outcome.

TLM takes place after SLA 5, though we do not know how long after, its safe to assume however that it takes place before SLA Era 2. 

SLA 5 will surely be contained in 10 days- the climax of Era 1 happens at the end of those 10 days, so it doesn't make sense for the story to carry on much past that (barring epilouges). Which means that Shallan will have to have shut down the ghostblood's plan for BAM permanently within that time frame. 10 days.

The only way the Ghost Blood's plan for BAM to be peremantly shut down is for BAM to be released onto Roshar. This seems to be the conflict: Kalak seems to be implying BAM should be re-released- as it created this massive wound to Roshar. 

Releasing BAM onto Roshar isn't something Shallan would do without Dalinar's approval- and he would most certainly would not approve that before the contest of champions, given how random an element that would introduce (UNLESS: Kalak thinks it could improve Dalinar's chance of victory- and I dont see how that could be OR Kalak goes rouge and does it on his own- also unlikely considering how indecisive he is about everything)

And an event of this magnitude isn't going to happen between eras, and its unlikely to happen in an epilouge.

Therfore- it stands to reason that this conflict transcends Era 1- thus it not coming to fruition by TLM is no issue. 

 

If I am correct about this theory- its not something Brandon would go to all this length to create, only for it to not pan out: If I am correct, the ghostbloods WILL get their hands on BAM- but there isn't enough time for them to do so in SLA 5- so its certainly a Era 2 item... If I am correct. 

[Returned]

7 hours ago, rywall182 said:

Releasing BAM onto Roshar isn't something Shallan would do without Dalinar's approval- and he would most certainly would not approve that before the contest of champions, given how random an element that would introduce (UNLESS: Kalak thinks it could improve Dalinar's chance of victory- and I dont see how that could be OR Kalak goes rouge and does it on his own- also unlikely considering how indecisive he is about everything)

I'm curious of Ba-Ado-Mishram's release would be as good for Odium as is commonly assumed. She's consistently worked for him in the past, so that's a point in favor of the idea. She's one of the Unmade, and so has some of Odium's nature to her which might bend her efforts towards his goals, so that's maybe another point.

But Sja-anat isn't exactly pro-Odium and might favor his defeat, if only for the freedom to pursue her own ends. I wonder if Ba-Ado-Mishram might be similar. By granting forms of power during the False Desolation she did something that previously had only been Odium's province. Odium has enough raw power to destroy her, but might not do so for any number of reasons. Maybe Ba-Ado-Mishram has the potential to displace some of Odium's influence over Singers, it not the Fused, or could be the nexus around which a new faction coalesces. Maybe the fugitive Listeners who fled before the Everstorm was called...

[alder24]

7 hours ago, rywall182 said:

The plan for BAM need not have come to fruition by TLM, for this theory to be valid- the conflict is almost certainly on-going. Continuing holding BAM captive throughout SLA 5, isn't a shut down of their plan, its not an invalidation- just a delay (which would explain why they dont have access to BAM yet in TLM)- and I think that is the most likely outcome.

We don't know that. Marasi wasn't a member of Ghostbloods, she was only able to see a fraction of their operation, not even in their main base in Elendel. While they clearly don't have Voidlight, it's possible there were some complications and they haven't figured out a way for Mishram to achieve that, or she refuses to cooperate.

7 hours ago, rywall182 said:

TLM takes place after SLA 5, though we do not know how long after, its safe to assume however that it takes place before SLA Era 2. 

The break between SA5 and SA6 is around 10-15 years long, during which Mistborn Era 2 takes place.

7 hours ago, rywall182 said:

SLA 5 will surely be contained in 10 days

Why? What makes you so sure that the contest will happen at all? Taravangian has a loophole to exploit and the best outcome for him is to force Dalinar to break the terms. I'm 100% sure KoWT won't end with the duel, that's too obvious.

7 hours ago, rywall182 said:

Therfore- it stands to reason that this conflict transcends Era 1- thus it not coming to fruition by TLM is no issue. 

Well, it was said in TLM that Roshar is too dangerous for Ghostbloods to travel there so something happened. 

 

I'm starting to think that BAM isn't that sane anymore, that connecting to every Parsh was too much for her and that strained her soul, making her a bit insane - Ulim said to Venli that "she was too small of a god" for example. 

[JustQuestin2004]

Ok I just remembered a little WOB that may provide some merit to the original question.

Spoiler

Balescream (paraphrased)

Can all the Shards manifest the same powers, for example could Honor create an Allomancer?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, but there would be more natural ways for Honor to achieve this.

Sooo... Since BAM is just a really big Splinter, a 'Little God', it may very well indeed be possible for her to create Mistborn.