Honor's Corpse

[Firstang]

In Sel's Cognitive Realm, the corpses of Devotion and Dominion are essentially a very dangerous pile of Investiture which constitutes the Dor. If a Shard's Splintered body can have a physical location (i.e. not in the Spiritual Realm), then where is Honor's corpse? My best theory at the moment is that it is the thing that recharges the highstorm when it passes the other side of Roshar. Any other ideas (or WoBs confirming or denying this)?

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard.

1 hour ago, Firstang said:

In Sel's Cognitive Realm, the corpses of Devotion and Dominion are essentially a very dangerous pile of Investiture which constitutes the Dor. If a Shard's Splintered body can have a physical location (i.e. not in the Spiritual Realm), then where is Honor's corpse? My best theory at the moment is that it is the thing that recharges the highstorm when it passes the other side of Roshar. Any other ideas (or WoBs confirming or denying this)?

Most of Honor is still in the Spiritual Realm. When Odium pushed Devotion and Dominion into the Cognitive (resulting in the Dor) he was trying (the hard way) to prevent the Shards from gaining Sapience on their own without a Vessel. It was a huge mistake, and he learned his lesson and found a better way with Honor. 

WoBs:

Spoiler

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sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

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Questioner

Did the shattering [Splintering] of Honor happen in the Cognitive Realm, and Ruin in the Physical? *Brandon laughs* The reason I'm wondering is, are spren the expression of the shattering in the Cognitive Realm while Ruin's physical being is an expression of the shattering in the Physical?

Brandon Sanderson

This is an interesting theory that I don't want to completely shoot down, but it is not heading in absolutely correct directions. The shattering of a shard is an event that transcends all three Realms.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

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Argent

I thought, like, at one of the signings you told me that when Odium was on Sel and Splintered the Shards there, the reason he did the Cognitive Realm hack was because he was not yet experienced in Splintering stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. He did not want what happened to happen, but he didn't know that he didn't want what happened to happen.

Argent

What I was getting at is, I could never find a recording of you saying "He was not experienced. He didn't want the power to be taken by anyone, and that's the only solution he could figure out." Does that sound like something you would say?

Brandon Sanderson

That is something I would say, yes... There are better ways to do what he wanted to do, which he later did a better job with. But there's not a lot of experimenting he could do.

Argent

Limited number of subjects, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

Don't forget, if Honor's Investiture were not in the spiritual realm, then Dalinar's perpendicularities could not recharge spheres. . . 

1 hour ago, Lego Mistborn said:

everything else is in the spren

Not "everything else" - Stormfather is the largest Sapiant splinter on Honor's Invesititure, not the bulk of all of Shard of Honor.

Edited February 27 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Firstang said:

In Sel's Cognitive Realm, the corpses of Devotion and Dominion are essentially a very dangerous pile of Investiture which constitutes the Dor. If a Shard's Splintered body can have a physical location (i.e. not in the Spiritual Realm), then where is Honor's corpse? My best theory at the moment is that it is the thing that recharges the highstorm when it passes the other side of Roshar. Any other ideas (or WoBs confirming or denying this)?

Adding more, if Shard's investiture were to be pushed into the Physical Realm, the results of it would be catastrophic. The Dor on Sel is already in the form of a deadly storm, vastly complicating traveling in and out of the system - that amount of investiture in the Physical Realm would be even more dangerous, likely rendering the entire planet inhospitable. But that didn't happen to Honor, his essence was not pushed into either the Physical or Cognitive Realm, it's still mostly in the Spiritual Realm.

Some pieces of Splintered Honor are Spren (who are Splinters), but they've existed before Honor was Splintered, they alone weren't made because of Honor's death, they aren't that big part of it. The majority of it is still in the Spiritual Realm, Connected to the Stormfather who is a kind of Cognitive Shadow of Honor. So technically speaking, Stormfather is "Honor's corpse," but he isn't the whole of Honor's Splintered investiture, he is just Connected to some big pieces of Honor, which still are in the Spiritual Realm. Combining the nature of the Stormfather with the fact that there are so many Spren on Roshar, there is Stormlight in plentiful amounts circulating between realms and things like that, this is enough for that Splintered investiture of Honor in the Spiritual Realm not to go wild like the Dor on Sel went.

OB ch 40:

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“You have been placed in a difficult position, my son,” Odium said. “You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god.”
[...]
“So do it. Leave us alone. Go away.”
Odium turned to him so sharply that Dalinar jumped. “Is that,” Odium said quietly, “an offer to release me from my bonds, coming from the man holding the remnants of Honor’s name and power?

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Questioner

That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened.

Brandon Sanderson

It hasn't been that. Something else happened.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Can holders of Shards give them up voluntarily? If so, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish.

As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like.

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?)

FAQFriday 2017 (June 9, 2017)

And here are some WoBs about the nature of the Dor - what Odium did to Devotion and Dominion isn't a normal thing:

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Brandon Sanderson

[...]

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

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[...]

Brandon Sanderson

[...]. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware.

It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

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Questioner

Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

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Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merged with the Stormfather, along with the largest portion of Honor's remaining power. That remaining power is sufficient to keep Odium bound to Roshar, and the Oathpact ongoing

Most of it is in the stormfather, everything else is in the spren, etc. or keeping the oathpact alive.

[RoyalBeeMage he/him]

i think that honour half fused with the stormfather as well as having enough splinters (spren) to act as an output for the investiture.

1 minute ago, Lego Mistborn said:

1 minute ago, Lego Mistborn said:

Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merged with the Stormfather, along with the largest portion of Honor's remaining power. That remaining power is sufficient to keep Odium bound to Roshar, and the Oathpact ongoing

Most of it is in the stormfather, everything else is in the spren, etc. or keeping the oathpact alive.

lego beat me to it