Theory on Shallan and Radiant

[cosmeredoug_30]

Hey so I was reading about Shallan being an unreliable narrator and it got me thinking about Radiant in Rhythm of War. Throughout the book Veil and Radiant forcibly take over from Shallan. She spends the book forgetting a lot of things she does because of this.

(Spoiler for end of Rhythm of War)

Spoiler

And at the end, Veil is absorbed by Shallan but we find out that Radiant took over from Shallan and killed Ialai, carrying out the Ghostbloods' orders.

So I wanted to ask, what's going on with Radiant? Shallan creates Veil because she thinks that she needs a different personality to be a spy and to be adventurous and live outside of her noble upbringing but of course, by the end of the book, she learns that this is part of her personality. However, Radiant is created so Shallan can be a better lady and Knight Radiant, at a time when she is unsure about how to act correctly. Now, Shallan has much more confidence in her role as a radiant and as a noblewoman, yet Radiant is still around.

I think that Veil was always a part of Shallan but Radiant is a seperate entity. She isn't really a part of Shallan's personality, especially since she was based off of Jasnah. She was created to be cold, regal, logical and efficient when Shallan couldn't be. And taking complete control because she feels it is necessary is a very Jasnah thing to do, something we are already seeing Radiant do a lot. In book 5 there will undoubtedly be all kinds of chaos. Perhaps Radiant feels that Shallan can't handle it, and a more logical approach is needed? Not to mention, Radiant comes from Shallan so she doesn't have Jasnah's stability. I could easily see Radiant becoming sort of a villain, controlling Shallan and being absolutely ruthless without any of Jasnah's compassion.

Shallan and Veil worked well together and I think it would be perfect for Shallan to then fight with her own alter ego, it could certainly be an important truth for her to deal with. Just a theory, but wondering what people think, since the end of the book felt like Shallan was preparing to have to deal with Radiant in some big way? 

PS: I read the book a while ago so sry if I missed something or just completely missed the point of Radiant

Edited February 23 by cosmeredoug_30

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the forums. Thanks for mentioning what to avoid spoilers for in your introductory post. Here are a few tips and tricks you may not yet know (since each "forum" is a bit different):

Spoiler

• At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link.
• At the bottom right you will see an heart icon (and possibly different reactions in the future).
• At the top right you will see a hamburger menu (three dots) which shows: Report, Share, and (your posts only) Edit and Hide tools.

Likes/Reactions:

Spoiler

• The Heart Icon (Like) is how you thank people or "like" a post
  • Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Report Tool:

Spoiler

• Use  the Report tool to report any post (your own or others) to a forum Mod
  • Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained.
  • For reporting Spam, only report a single post by the user to let the Mods and Admins know - they get messages for each "report" so reporting each Spam post is annoying and unnecessary. If all posts by a "new user" (bot) are all spam - then all of those posts will be deleted when that account is deleted.

Hide Tool:

Spoiler

• Use the Hide tool to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting (useful for accidental double-posts)
  • Hiding the first post in a Thread will hide the threan as long as ther have been no replies (Needs Testing)

Mentions:

Spoiler

• You can "Mention" a person by typing "@" and slowly typing their user name (spelling matters). As you spell their name, the interface will show a pop-up with matches - when you match appears, click it to add the Mention
  • Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Quote Methods:

Spoiler

• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is (adding a carraige return if necessary)
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
• The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you can click that for each post you want to quote
  • As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have
  • They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply
  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically with one blank line between each for you to add your comment(s)
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote Selection" button that pops up.
  • This will also be added to the cursor location, rather than the bottom of the reply.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
  • For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down)  and move the quote to before the empty line. . .
  • This is also how you can add quotes to an Edit of your own post. You quote using any of the methods above and the quote will go to the reply section. You then hover over the four-way arrow and use CTRL+C to cut the quote, which you can then paste into your edit window.
• Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Editing posts:

Spoiler

• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
  • Editing the first post in a thread allows the thread-creator to edit the thread title (important for changing accidental spoilers)
  • Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required.
• Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Other:

Spoiler

• Quotes and Spoilers are very similar, but here are the differences:
  • Spoiler tags are default "closed" and are not attributed - they may be opened by clicking the spoiler box title
  • Quotes are default "open" (but may be closed by clicking the Quote Title and are denoted by the basic arrow icon on the left side of the quote title), If the quote was added with one of the methods explained above, it will be attributed - if it was added with the quote icon in the Reply/Edit tools, it will not be attributed.
  • Attributed Quotes will have a curved arrow icon on the right side of the quote title to jump directly to the post from which the quote was taken.

Hope that helps.

3 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

Shallan creates Veil because she thinks that she needs a different personality to be a spy and to be adventurous and live outside of her noble upbringing but of course, by the end of the book, she learns that this is part of her personality.

Technically, Shallan created Veil as a child (that was part of the resolution in RoW, she created Veil to "hide" the memories that were causing her catatonia Episodes (WoR Ch 19)). She gave Veil a "look" in the Shattered Plains. 

3 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

She was created to be cold, regal, logical and efficient when Shallan couldn't be.

Technically, she created Radiant as a way to block the emotional upheaval from handling the Shardblade (OB Ch 15):

Spoiler

“Mmmm,” Pattern said. “This is good. This needs to be done.”

Shallan scrambled through the room to the small mirror she’d hung from the wall. She stared at herself, eyes wide, hair an utter mess. She’d started breathing in sharp, quick gasps. “I can’t—” she said. “I can’t be this person, Pattern. I can’t just wield the sword. Some brilliant knight on a tower, pretending she should be followed.”

<snip>

No. No, just be someone else.

<snip>

Veil. Veil would be fine holding a sword. She didn’t have Shallan’s broken soul, and hadn’t killed her parents. She’d be able to do this.

No. No, what would Adolin do if he returned and found a completely different woman in the room? He couldn’t know of Veil. The lines she sketched, ragged and unrefined from the shaking pencil, quickly took the shape of her own face. But hair in a bun. A poised woman, not as flighty as Shallan, not as unintentionally silly.

A woman who hadn’t been sheltered. A woman hard enough, strong enough, to wield this sword. A woman like … like Jasnah.

Yes, Jasnah’s subtle smile, composure, and self-confidence. Shallan outlined her own face with these ideals, creating a harder version of it. Could … could she be this woman?

I have to be, Shallan thought, drawing in Stormlight from her satchel, then breathing it out in a puff around her. She stood up as the change took hold. Her heartbeat slowed, and she wiped the sweat from her brow, then calmly undid her safehand sleeve, tossed aside the foolish extra pouch she’d tied around her hand inside, then rolled the sleeve back to expose her still-gloved hand.

Good enough. Adolin couldn’t possibly expect her to put on sparring clothing. She pulled her hair back into a bun and fixed it in place with hairspikes from her satchel.

When Adolin returned to the room a moment later, he found a poised, calm woman who wasn’t quite Shallan Davar. Brightness Radiant is her name, she thought. She will go only by title.

Inspired by Jasnah, for the traits mentioned. Like Veil, Radiant grew to be more, but she was originally conceived to be a way to hide from handling the Shardblade. 

Interesting theory though. 

[cosmeredoug_30]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the forums. Thanks for mentioning what to avoid spoilers for in your introductory post. Here are a few tips and tricks you may not yet know (since each "forum" is a bit different):

Thanks, it took way longer than it should of for me to figure out quoting haha.

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Technically, Shallan created Veil as a child (that was part of the resolution in RoW, she created Veil to "hide" the memories that were causing her catatonia Episodes (WoR Ch 19)). She gave Veil a "look" in the Shattered Plains. 

I completely forgot about that! I'm doing a reread and have only just got up to Rhythm of War so I'll probably come back after and realise it's a crazy tinfoil hat theory.  Thanks for answering though!

[alder24]

13 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

Hey so I was reading about Shallan being an unreliable narrator and it got me thinking about Radiant in Rhythm of War. Throughout the book Veil and Radiant forcibly take over from Shallan. She spends the book forgetting a lot of things she does because of this.

(Spoiler for end of Rhythm of War)

  Reveal hidden contents

And at the end, Veil is absorbed by Shallan but we find out that Radiant took over from Shallan and killed Ialai, carrying out the Ghostbloods' orders.

So I wanted to ask, what's going on with Radiant? Shallan creates Veil because she thinks that she needs a different personality to be a spy and to be adventurous and live outside of her noble upbringing but of course, by the end of the book, she learns that this is part of her personality. However, Radiant is created so Shallan can be a better lady and Knight Radiant, at a time when she is unsure about how to act correctly. Now, Shallan has much more confidence in her role as a radiant and as a noblewoman, yet Radiant is still around.

I think that Veil was always a part of Shallan but Radiant is a seperate entity. She isn't really a part of Shallan's personality, especially since she was based off of Jasnah. She was created to be cold, regal, logical and efficient when Shallan couldn't be. And taking complete control because she feels it is necessary is a very Jasnah thing to do, something we are already seeing Radiant do a lot. In book 5 there will undoubtedly be all kinds of chaos. Perhaps Radiant feels that Shallan can't handle it, and a more logical approach is needed? Not to mention, Radiant comes from Shallan so she doesn't have Jasnah's stability. I could easily see Radiant becoming sort of a villain, controlling Shallan and being absolutely ruthless without any of Jasnah's compassion.

Shallan and Veil worked well together and I think it would be perfect for Shallan to then fight with her own alter ego, it could certainly be an important truth for her to deal with. Just a theory, but wondering what people think, since the end of the book felt like Shallan was preparing to have to deal with Radiant in some big way? 

PS: I read the book a while ago so sry if I missed something or just completely missed the point of Radiant

As said by Treamayne, Veil was created by Shallan when she was a child, to cover up the truth that she killed her spren. Once the truth was uncovered and Shallan was strong enough to acknowledge that, she was no longer needed and was absorbed. I bet the same is with Radiant. She was made by Shallan as a child, to cover up even a deeper truth - there are still holes in Shallan's memory and Radiant agreed to be absorbed once they find a proper way to do that. RoW ch 115:

Quote

Radiant remained. They agreed that once they found the right path, she would eventually be absorbed as Veil had been. For now, Shallan’s wounds were still fresh. Practically bleeding. But what she’d done would finally let her begin to heal. [...]
She still had questions. Things about her past didn’t completely align yet, though her memory was no longer full of holes. There was much they didn’t understand. For example, she was certain that, during the years between killing Testament and finding Pattern, her powers had still functioned in some small ways

 

Radiant didn't kill Ialai to fulfill Mraize's wishes, she did it for Shallan's wellbeing. She saw what this life of lies is doing to Shallan, she saw Shallan was going to kill Ialai at that moment and she took over. She did it to save Shallan from consequences of becoming Mraize's knife and a Ghostblood. She didn't do that for control, or for any malicious reasons - she did it to protect Shallan. Just like Veil was made to protect Shallan, so did Radiant. RoW ch 93:

Quote

I … Radiant said, her voice distant. I killed Ialai.
Formless froze in place.
I saw … Radiant whispered, that you were about to do it. That you had poison secreted in your satchel. So I stepped in. To protect you. So you … didn’t have to do it. To prevent … what is happening to you now … Shallan …
[...]
“I know why you’re doing this, Shallan,” Veil said. “There’s no fourth persona. Not yet. You’ve given yourself another name, so you can tuck away the pain. You take that step though, and it will be real.”
“This is who I want to be,” Formless said. “Let me go.”
“You’re running again,” Veil said. “You think you don’t deserve Adolin, or your place as a Radiant. You’re terrified that if your friends knew what you truly were, they’d turn away from you. Leave you. So you’re going to leave them first.
“That’s why you kept spending time with the Ghostbloods. That’s why you’re here. You see this as an out from your life. You figure if you become the despicable person the darkness whispers that you have been, then it will all be decided. No going back. Decision’s made.”

We also saw that Radiant was wearing a Shardplate during the Battle of Thaylen Field in Oathbringer. This suggests two things: one is that Shallan was at least at 4th Ideal in her bond with Testament (which is also suggested by the words with which Shallan broke her bond with Testament), second is that Radiant was made all the way back when she was a child. Radiant represents Shallan's past, she represents Shallan being a Knight Radiant as a child. OB ch 120:

Quote

Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair. Reserved and cautious. She nodded to Shallan with a steady, determined look.

I wouldn't say that Shallan and Veil worked well together - in OB Veil was forcefully taking over and was "bleeding" through Shallan in random moments, like when she was drawing. They had a lot of problems together which they eventually "resolved" at the end of the book. On the other hand in RoW it was Shallan who was either hiding because she couldn't bare the pain and emotional damage accumulating over the years, or lastly it was Shallan who brutally took control, shoving both Veil and Radiant in the back of her mind, willing to kill Kelek to escape the pain. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar were to happen in KoWT between Shallan and Radiant, I don't think it would be because Radiant has some malicious intentions, it might be because Shallan will once again try to hide or run away from the last truth and Radiant will be forced to take over to push Shallan towards pain and towards the truth. But as I've said, we already had that in OB and RoW, I think that it would be better for Shallan and Radiant to cooperate together well, to show that Shallan is improving and is making progress. 

Shallan's mental state is far from ideal, she has dissociative identity disorder. Shallan can be like Jasnah, we saw this in WoR after her ship sank and she was stranded alone. When Shallan met Tvlakv, she behaved like Jasnah and took full control over Tvlakv's caravan. Radiant is Shallan's alter, Radiant came from Shallan. But Radiant is guarding the truth much deeper than Testament, the truth about Shallan's mother - that Shallan not only killed her mother, she killed a Herald who was her mother and by doing so, she caused the True Desolation. That's why Shallan didn't absorb Radiant with Veil. 

 

[cosmeredoug_30]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think it would be because Radiant has some malicious intentions, it might be because Shallan will once again try to hide or run away from the last truth and Radiant will be forced to take over to push Shallan towards pain and towards the truth.

That's kind of what I meant, I can totally see Radiant taking control of Shallan, not for any evil purpose, but because she thinks she has to in order to protect her. Only, I just thought that with how unstable Shallan and her alters are, it would make sense if Radiant took it too far in trying to protect Shallan. 

 

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

But Radiant is guarding the truth much deeper than Testament, the truth about Shallan's mother - that Shallan not only killed her mother, she killed a Herald who was her mother and by doing so, she caused the True Desolation. That's why Shallan didn't absorb Radiant with Veil. 

I have no idea what to think of this theory. I've seen it all over the place and it's either perfect or crazy. I kind of want to believe it. I always wondered why Shallan's mother just so happened to know the skybreakers and why Shallan seems to be much more important cosmere-wise, why Hoid took such great interest in her. But then I feel like it would be too coincidental. Surely we would have got some mention about how the Heralds felt Chanarach's death, or how the Sons of Honor had intel on her location. I mean, a herald being the matriarch of a noble family surrounded by scandal? Surely someone would notice?

Thanks for answering and further debunking the theory. I really need to do a reread because apparently I forgot everything.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

it's either perfect or crazy.

It's both!

2 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

Surely we would have got some mention about how the Heralds felt Chanarach's death

No, Heralds don't feel each other's deaths, only permanent deaths like when Jez died. This was shown to us in WoK Prelude - Kalak didn't know who had died, just like others weren't sure if he had survived. Deaths resulting in returning to Braize aren't felt by Heralds. 

Quote

The place of meeting was in the shadow of a large rock formation, a spire rising into the sky. As always, the ten of them had decided upon it before the battle. The survivors would make their way here. Oddly, only one of the others was waiting for him. Jezrien. Had the other eight all died? It was possible. [...]
“You might call it a miracle. Only one of us died this time.”
“Talenel,” Kalak said. His was the only Blade unaccounted for.
Yes. He died holding that passage by the northern waterway.” [...]
Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. “I was chosen to wait for you. We weren’t certain if you had survived."

 

2 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

or how the Sons of Honor had intel on her location.

You mean the Sons of Honor who believed Heralds are in the Tranquiline Halls fighting with Voidbringers? Those Sons of Honor who wanted to cause another Desolation to force Heralds to come back to Roshar to make the Vorin church in power again? They would have outright dismissed any possibility of Heralds' presence on Roshar. 

Kalak might have known something - or not. They don't have to know or care where others are. They've promised not to look for each other during the Last Desolation. Shallan just got to talk with Kalak and that happened off page - if he knew it would be a topic of the next book. And you know, there was an acolyte Skybreaker with Shallan's mother, it's likely Nale knew. 

Quote

“It has been decided, Kalak. We will go our ways, and we will not seek out one another."

 

2 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

I mean, a herald being the matriarch of a noble family surrounded by scandal? Surely someone would notice?

A Herald was laying drunk all day right outside of the Kholinar palace and nobody noticed or even cared about him. 99.99% of the Rosharan population believed Heralds aren't on Roshar, they wouldn't have looked for them among their neighbors. 

 

Have you read SA 5 Prologue?

Spoiler

The Stormfather did feel a Herald dying and returning to Braize just before Gavilar was assassinated. The timeline fits, Shallan killed her mother in the same timeframe as Gavilar was killed - 6 years before WoR. We also have only two Heralds unaccounted for - Chana and Vedel. One of them has to be the one that was killed because we know where the rest of them are in the meantime. 

I personally believe that Vedel is Liss, the assassin Jasnah was talking to just before Gavilar was assassinated. There is something fishy about her, in one of the WoB Brandon behaved very suspiciously when asked if she was a Herald (this one, just listen to the audio) and it fits that Vedel's madness would push her in that direction - from a healer to a killer. That leaves out only Chana, who was seen at least once in books (WoB) - Shallan. Everything fits, it's too important that Shallan killed her mother at the same time as Gavilar was killed. 

Quote

Suddenly, the Stormfather wavered. Lightning pulsed through his shimmering form, lighting Gavilar’s room with an electric glow. Blue frost on the rugs, pure light reflecting in the glass of the balcony doors.
Then, the Stormfather cried out. A sound like a peal of thunder, agonized.
“What?” Gavilar said, backing up. “What happened?”
A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...

 

 

[cosmeredoug_30]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

You mean the Sons of Honor who believed Heralds are in the Tranquiline Halls fighting with Voidbringers? Those Sons of Honor who wanted to cause another Desolation to force Heralds to come back to Roshar to make the Vorin church in power again? They would have outright dismissed any possibility of Heralds' presence on Roshar. 

Sorry, they just talk about heralds so much, I forgot they were trying to bring them back, not look for them. There are too many secret societies on Roshar for me to keep track lmao. Maybe the Diagram could have tracked her? But then I don't think the Diagram had been formed yet, had it? If it had, I doubt it was extensive enough yet to monitor the heralds as they did by present day in the books.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

A Herald was laying drunk all day right outside of the Kholinar palace and nobody noticed or even cared about him. 99.99% of the Rosharan population believed Heralds aren't on Roshar, they wouldn't have looked for them among their neighbors. 

 

Have you read SA 5 Prologue?

There would be a big difference though. A drunk with loads of hair, wasting away, wouldn't be construed with a herald who had been a king. But the Diagram knew about some of the heralds so obviously some of them were noticeable enough. And Chana was very connected to secret societies. I read some of the theory you posted above and presumably Chanarach may have been buying into Nale and Ishar's theory of killing budding surgebinders and she clearly had attachments to the skybreakers. The Diagram, or whichever organisation I'm thinking of, had info on Nale and the skybreakers so they could have found Chana through them? I'm not sure.

I just think it's a little weird that we have some idea of what's going on with all of the heralds except Chanarach. Even if she had flown under the radar I feel like we should have had some small indication. I'm going to have to go back through the books to see if there's a random character that fits Chana's description, it's annoying me how well Chanarach being Shallan's mother lines up.  

I haven't read the SA 5 prologue, I probably should but I want to wait for the full book. Also, just wondering, how do you get the quotes from book passages and WoBs? If you couldn't tell, I'm new to this!

Edited February 24 by cosmeredoug_30

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

Maybe the Diagram could have tracked her?

The Diagram that was founded AFTER Gavilar and Shallan's mother both died?

Only after Gavilar died did Taravantian go to meet with the Nightwatcher, then some time has passed before he got his one day of ultra intelligence and then the Diagram was founded. Long after Shallan's mother was killed so they would have been unable to track her.

20 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

But the Diagram knew about some of the heralds so obviously some of them were noticeable enough.

Battar apparently approached Taravangian on her own and warned him about incoming Desolation. That's what Taravangian said.

40 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

There would be a big difference though. A drunk with loads of hair, wasting away, wouldn't be construed with a herald who had been a king.

Is it though? A woman living a quiet life in the countryside with her husband and kids, in the area where red hairs are not rare at all, wouldn't be mistaken for a Herald. 

25 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

The Diagram, or whichever organisation I'm thinking of, had info on Nale and the skybreakers

Ghostbloods. They have knowledge of Heralds, Kalak in particular. They were interested in Davar's house, that's how Shallan's father got the Soulcaster - maybe they were interested because Chana was there? However if Chana is Shallan's mother then she would have been far less valuable than Kalak, because she isn't searching for a way to leave Roshar, nor does she know where BAM is hidden - Kalak was there when BAM was trapped, Ghostbloods need Kalak not Chana.

27 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

I just think it's a little weird that we have some idea of what's going on with all of the heralds except Chanarach.

Yes, it's weird. But we know she was seen on pages at least once by at least one character - I wrote it in the spoiler box, not sure if you saw this WoB. I also wrote there that the only other Herald that we know even less about is Vedel. That can mean many things. 

30 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

Even if she had flown under the radar I feel like we should have had some small indication.

That doesn't make sense. If she had flown completely under the radar we wouldn't have had any indications about her whereabouts - and that's the case with Chana. But If Chana is Shallan's mother then Nale and some of his Skybreakers knew (that's one secret organization) and potentially Ghostbloods too (that's another one that knew). But just because they knew doesn't mean we as readers have to know - we don't have any reliable narrators from those factions. Mraize suggested to Shallan that he knows a lot about her childhood - too much. It makes sense that he knows that because he was observing them because Chana was there. 

34 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

it's annoying me how well Chanarach being Shallan's mother lines up.  

Accept the truth! It's time for you to say your next Truth as a Lightweaver  

[cosmeredoug_30]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I also wrote there that the only other Herald that we know even less about is Vedel. That can mean many things. 

You said that Liss could be Vedel? Could she be Chana instead? I absolutely get that Vedel might turn from healing to killing due to her madness, but with Chana being a dustbringer, and I remember something about her being 'the Guard'. I can't remember where but I saw something about her being a protective, family-oriented person? Not sure if that's true, obviously we don't have a lot of info on Chana. However, we see Liss discussing the assassination of Aesudan because Jasnah wants to protect her family. Then again, all of this could easily translate to Chana becoming a mother, and then trying to kill Shallan due to being a mad herald and all.

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Accept the truth! It's time for you to say your next Truth as a Lightweaver

I feel like it can't be true because Brandon tends to go in a whole other direction from fan theories. It does make sense though! Especially since we haven't exactly got a lot of info on Shallan's mother, other than the fact Shallan killed her. In the build up to Shallan revealing that she killed her father, we still got details about him. So her mother and Chana are the two most mysterious people so far.  Coincidence? I think not

[alder24]

12 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

You said that Liss could be Vedel? Could she be Chana instead?

Liss doesn't have red hair, she has dark hair. It's less likely in my opinion.

12 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

I remember something about her being 'the Guard'.

It's how her icon in the chapter arches is named. 

Spoiler

Argent

Hey Peter,   I've been meaning to ask you about this since Alice's article on the Heralds went up. In it, she lists each Herald's role (e.g. Jezrien is the King, Battar is the Counselor, Kalak is the Maker, etc.), and I noticed that those same roles were listed (but not used) in the Radiant Quiz as the archetypes for each Order. Some of these show up in the books, but a few don't, and the source for those appears to be an old old email from you. I wanted to know how canonical these are, and whether I can include them in the Coppermind (and if I can, it would be nice to know what they are - roles, titles, archetypes?)

Peter Ahstrom

These, along with Jester, are the names of the Photoshop layers for the faces on the chapter arches. Since the words themselves don’t really appear in the books, I couldn’t say that they’re canon. In our internal wiki we call them Face/Title. I don’t have an opinion on putting them in the Coppermind.

Footnote: The roles, starting with Jezrien's and going clockwise, are: King, Judge, Guard, Healer, Scholar, Artist, Counselor, Maker, Soldier, and Priest.
Miscellaneous 2020 (Aug. 4, 2020)

 

12 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

I can't remember where but I saw something about her being a protective, family-oriented person?

I don't remember that at all. Chana is a Herald of Common Man, but there is nothing about family on Coppermind. If something like this was said in books then it makes even more sense that Chana is Shallan's mother - she certainly wasn't very protective of her daughter, she tried to kill her. That would be her madness.

12 hours ago, cosmeredoug_30 said:

However, we see Liss discussing the assassination of Aesudan because Jasnah wants to protect her family.

That wasn't Liss doing, that was Jasnah. That doesn't say anything about Liss. 

[+Crossen]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Liss doesn't have red hair, she has dark hair. It's less likely in my opinion.

Liss is much more likely to be Vedel. Liss has a description of having long dark hair and being "plump". If you look at the Vedel endpage then she certainly fits that description.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:27 PM, alder24 said:

And you know, there was an acolyte Skybreaker with Shallan's mother, it's likely Nale knew. 

Wait! We know for sure it was a Skybreaker acolyte who was present when Shallan killed her mom? or is it still conjecture based on Oathbringer letter and Shallan's words to Hoid? 

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Wait! We know for sure it was a Skybreaker acolyte who was present when Shallan killed her mom? or is it still conjecture based on Oathbringer letter and Shallan's words to Hoid? 

The latter. OB ch 40, Mraize's letter to Shallan:

Quote

Your mother had intimate contact with a Skybreaker acolyte, and you know the result of that relationship

That's either the person that was there when Shallan killed her mother, or some other person present in her mother's life - either way she was associated with Skybreakers (which suggests Nale knew) and Shallan's mother said "she's one of them," which implies she knew about Nale's reasons for killing Radiants and agreed with them (which suggests she knew Nale).

From Coppermind:

Quote

After Shallan began manifesting Surgebinding abilities at the age of eleven,^[1] her mother and an associate attempted to kill Shallan.^{[fn 1]} They arrived at the Davar estate and argued with Lin, and Shallan's mother referred to her as "one of them"

The associate is likely a Skybreaker acolyte with whom Shallan's mother had "intimate contact"^[5] and is possibly named Dreder,^[4] but neither fact has been explicitly confirmed.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:12 AM, alder24 said:

But Radiant is guarding the truth much deeper than Testament, the truth about Shallan's mother - that Shallan not only killed her mother, she killed a Herald who was her mother and by doing so, she caused the True Desolation. That's why Shallan didn't absorb Radiant with Veil. 

 

Radiant seems like Shallan's idealized version of her mom, who was (probably) the Herald Chana. I would posit a theory that she absorbed her mother's soul and it manifests as Radiant, but there is no evidence of that magic being a thing, so why bring it up? I dunno I just think like the idea. 

I am 100% onboard with Chana being her mom, I am not onboard with her breaking. No one needed to break for the events of this series to happen. The Fused came back because of the piece of the Everstorm being moved to Roshar and summoned into the physical realm. It created a bridge for them (a lot of bridges in the series). 

I think Chana has been on Roshar as long as Taln who also didn't break this time either. She hasn't sought out her family because she tried to kill her daughter and feels bad about it. 

Why wouldn't the Fused have just retuned if she broke? Not like the Heralds are in any condition to help the humans. Even Taln is a total wreck. Why wait until the Everstorm was brought into the physical realm? The Listeners just barely succeeded in the summoning. I don't want to tell the Fused how to do their job, but if it were me I would actively help protect the people that Odium's big Oathpact workaround hinged upon instead leaving it all up to Ulum and the descendants of "traitors" who barely know any forms. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Radiant seems like Shallan's idealized version of her mom, who was (probably) the Herald Chana. I would posit a theory that she absorbed her mother's soul and it manifests as Radiant, but there is no evidence of that magic being a thing, so why bring it up? I dunno I just think like the idea. 

I'm not sure Shallan would be able to do that to a Herald partially bound by the Oathpact - Chana's soul would be still forced to Braize in my opinion, the Connection is there. But if you look at Shallan and Chana's relation and compared them to Returned, Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Vivenna (and Siri) has a fragment of the Returned Breath within her because the First Returned Vo had kids and Vivenna is one of his descendants. This allows her to "awaken" this Returned Breath and change her hair color, hair length potentially even appearance, age and even glow like a Returned does.

I bet Shallan has something similar in her, a fragment of Chana's soul that took the form of Radiant.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

I am 100% onboard with Chana being her mom, I am not onboard with her breaking. No one needed to break for the events of this series to happen. The Fused came back because of the piece of the Everstorm being moved to Roshar and summoned into the physical realm. It created a bridge for them (a lot of bridges in the series). 

Yeah, that's probably the weakest part of this theory. I think Chana's breaking would still be needed to break - Taln returned before the Everstorm was summoned so Chana would have broken before that. As per previous Desolations, the Oathpact stopped Fused and Voidspren from immediately following Heralds, giving them time to prepare, but 80 days later the Everstorm was summoned allowing them to go around this restriction and now be unboundable by the Oathpact, because they don't return to Braize after death, but to the Everstorm.

And it's possible that killing Chana was part of Odium's plan - Unmades were influencing Davar's house, it's possible it happened before Shallan killed her mother and they were all nudged by them to fulfill Odium's plan. 

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Why wouldn't the Fused have just retuned if she broke?

Explained in OB ch 38:

Quote

ONCE ONE BROKE, ALL TEN HERALDS RETURNED TO ROSHAR. THEY FOUGHT. THEY LED MEN. THEIR OATHPACT DELAYED THE FUSED FROM RETURNING IMMEDIATELY

Even more, in OB and RoW we learned that Fused were slumbering on Braize and are slowly waking up as the Desolation is progressing - it seems they weren't ready for sudden return to Roshar.

Edited February 27 by alder24

[+Child of Hodor]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

learnt that Fused were slumbering on Braize and are slowly waking up as the Desolation is progressing - it seems they weren't ready for sudden return to Roshar.

Good point! I forgot how much they like their naps :).  Kind of sad how terrible a shape many of their minds are compared to the Heralds who are also a mess but have been tortured and don't get naps. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Reading this thread made me think of a tangential point about Chana. I put it in the the crazy theories thread as to not derail this one, if anyone is interested.

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/156419-craziest-theories/page/2/#comment-1694687

 

Edited February 27 by JohnnyKaizen

[+robardin he/him]

On 2/24/2024 at 3:27 PM, alder24 said:

Have you read SA 5 Prologue?

  Reveal hidden contents

The Stormfather did feel a Herald dying and returning to Braize just before Gavilar was assassinated. The timeline fits, Shallan killed her mother in the same timeframe as Gavilar was killed - 6 years before WoR. We also have only two Heralds unaccounted for - Chana and Vedel. One of them has to be the one that was killed because we know where the rest of them are in the meantime. 

I personally believe that Vedel is Liss, the assassin Jasnah was talking to just before Gavilar was assassinated. There is something fishy about her, in one of the WoB Brandon behaved very suspiciously when asked if she was a Herald (this one, just listen to the audio) and it fits that Vedel's madness would push her in that direction - from a healer to a killer. That leaves out only Chana, who was seen at least once in books (WoB) - Shallan. Everything fits, it's too important that Shallan killed her mother at the same time as Gavilar was killed. 

 

 

Nitpick: that really, definitely

Spoiler

isn't the Stormfather the Splinter of Honor that was talking to Gavilar, just something presenting as such.

 

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, robardin said:

Nitpick: that really, definitely

  Hide contents

isn't the Stormfather the Splinter of Honor that was talking to Gavilar, just something presenting as such.

 

Couternitpick:

Spoiler

No, because no "something else" pretending to be the Stormfather would be able to sense a Herald's death and return to Braize (as evident from WoK Prelude). Only someone that is the remnant of Honor, someone strongly Connected to the largest pieces of Honor, someone that is Honor's Cognitive Shadow would be able to feel that. And that someone is the real Stormfather. There is a whole big and spicy topic about it here.

Either way it is just a nitpick that doesn't really matter, with or without the Stormfaker, a Herald died in the suspiciously similar timeframe to Shallan's mother. 

 

[+robardin he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Couternitpick:

  Hide contents

No, because no "something else" pretending to be the Stormfather would be able to sense a Herald's death and return to Braize (as evident from WoK Prelude). Only someone that is the remnant of Honor, someone strongly Connected to the largest pieces of Honor, someone that is Honor's Cognitive Shadow would be able to feel that. And that someone is the real Stormfather. There is a whole big and spicy topic about it here.

Either way it is just a nitpick that doesn't really matter, with or without the Stormfaker, a Herald died in the suspiciously similar timeframe to Shallan's mother. 

 

Yeah, that discussion should be taken to another thread.

For the record - I am well aware that there were indeed multiple, long threads on that topic that erupted after the SA5 Prologue was read/documented in the Arcanum, I participated in at least one of them, and remain unmoved in my convictions!

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Counter Counter nitpick

Spoiler

On 2/28/2024 at 5:36 PM, alder24 said:

No, because no "something else" pretending to be the Stormfather would be able to sense a Herald's death and return to Braize (as evident from WoK Prelude). Only someone that is the remnant of Honor, someone strongly Connected to the largest pieces of Honor, someone that is Honor's Cognitive Shadow would be able to feel that. And that someone is the real Stormfather. There is a whole big and spicy topic about it here.

Either way it is just a nitpick that doesn't really matter, with or without the Stormfaker, a Herald died in the suspiciously similar timeframe to Shallan's mother. 

 

Spoiler

Someone strongly Connected to the remnants of Honor could also be Ishar...