+robardin he/him Posted February 7, 2024 Posted February 7, 2024 Oh yeah, and notice that Axindweth, despite having the blood-red gemstone with Ulim inside of it contained in her safehand sleeve, had never simply cracked the gem and released Ulim. She gave it to Venli after sussing her out as to her attitude and temperament to finding "forms of power", and then instructed her to release the spren during a highstorm. Just as the Fused appear to require a human to gem-trap a Herald's soul, perhaps only a singer/listener could release the gem-trapped voidspren?
Duxredux he/him Posted February 8, 2024 Posted February 8, 2024 (edited) I've got a few thoughts: First idea, Ishar thinks he can reforge the Oathpact even while Honor and Jezrien are dead. This is Ishar when he is slightly less nutty then usual, so take that for what it's worth. Up until Honor was killed, is there anything to say that Honor couldn't have just made a new Herald if one were to be permanently killed? A new Herald would have a fraction of the experience of the original ten, but then Kaladin and friends can still pretty well match the Fused. There's even logical candidates in whatever 4th or 5th Ideal Radiants that happened to be around while Honor was still alive, people who had done a stellar job of living long enough to swear the later ideals, live those Ideals during the pressure of a Desolation, and most importantly, not die. They wouldn't be handing an Honorblade or Oathpact to a greenhorn. The real question is how this goes down on Braise when there are no corporeal bodies for the Fused (for that matter, I'm not even entirely sure how the torture worked). Second note: I suspect that one of the reasons that Shards may be hesitant to produce their godmetal too often is that it literally portions off a piece of their power that they no longer can access directly and this weakens them relative to other Shards. Full Cosmere spoilers: Spoiler This is core to how Ruin was killed. His Atium was separated from and hid from him. After Hoid acquires his bead of Lerasium, when Kelsier next sees Leras his form has degraded significantly (it's not immediate, but I think the same happens when the last bead is used to save Elend). Put this in the context of Rayse's chutzpah to duke it out with Honor and Cultivation simultaneously. That's a very risky gamble he made and significantly weakening himself personally by manifesting godmetals may put him as a Shard at a significant handicap in raw power compared to Honor and Cultivation. After Honor died and he only had Cultivation to deal with, manifesting godmetal became somewhat less risky. Sure a bit of Raysium here or there may not be too significant, but produce it at a larger scale and as we found with Ruin and Preservation, a little bit of an imbalance of power can make all the difference in who walks away alive. There's a constant cost/benefit risk analysis in how much a Shard chooses to commit themselves. Who knows, maybe Honor committed too many resources and gave the the upper hand to Rayse in raw power, and that this contributed to how Rayse orchestrated Honor's death. Between the Honorblades and the Honorspren that are comprised of the substance of Godmetals, that's a lot of metal that Tanavast put out. Might explain why Cultivation is hiding in the shadows for most of what we've seen so far. In both cases, forestalling attempts to permanently kill the Heralds via abundant Raysium production until after killing Honor has logical benefits. Rayse had been raising an army to take to the Cosmere. Introducing the technology and methodology to kill both sides permanently is what Raboniel accomplished and specifically what Rayse hoped to avoid. By gemstone imprisonment or anti-Light, the mechanism still allows for the permanent death of Rayse's army. Edited February 8, 2024 by Duxredux 3
CtrlAltDepressed Posted February 8, 2024 Posted February 8, 2024 16 hours ago, Duxredux said: Up until Honor was killed, is there anything to say that Honor couldn't have just made a new Herald if one were to be permanently killed? What are your thoughts on the Taln is not the original taln theory? Cant find them at the moment but there have been multiple WOB's that say something to the effect of 'the guy who THINKS he is taln'
Treamayne Posted February 8, 2024 Posted February 8, 2024 4 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: What are your thoughts on the Taln is not the original taln theory? Cant find them at the moment but there have been multiple WOB's that say something to the effect of 'the guy who THINKS he is taln' You likely mean this WoB: Spoiler Narkac Can you give us a hint on the madman identity, the man everyone think he's Taln ? Brandon Sanderson Everyone think he's Taln! Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016) But it's far overshadowed by this one: Spoiler Questioner Why didn't Dalinar get the powers of a Stoneward when he bonded Taln's [Honorblade]? Brandon Sanderson Some readers have already figured this out, so I don't think I'm engaging in too large a spoiler to dig into this one here. There are several oddities going on here. The most important one relevant to this question is the Blade in question. If you compare the descriptions of the sword described in the epilogue of The Way of Kings to the one that traveled with the madman (allegedly Taln, the Herald) to the Shattered Plains, you'll find they are different. The one that the characters obtained in Words of Radiance is NOT an Honorblade. It's an ordinary Shardblade (as ordinary as one of those can be called.) I'm not going to say specifically what happened to the Blade Taln arrived with at Kholinar, but I will say that it IS a different weapon from the one in Words of Radiance. The other issue here is the somewhat lesser question of whether this character is actually Taln, the Herald, or not. Some characters in-world don't believe that it is, though his viewpoint in Words of Radiance strongly implies otherwise. This isn't specifically relevant to the conversation for reasons I'll talk about below--but it is tangentially related. Because in the cosmere, Intent is important to many of the types of magic. It's theoretically possible to hold an Honorblade and not realize what its powers are, and therefore be unable to access them. As an aside, this character was actually the primary protagonist of the version of The Way of Kings I wrote in 2002. A man who woke up, with lingering memories of madness, and claimed to be a Herald when nobody believed him--as he couldn't manifest any powers, seemed to have lost his sword, and lore said the Heralds weren't coming back anyway. When I wrote the new version of The Way of Kings in 2009 or so, one goal was to focus the storyline. I'd included so many characters in the 2002 version that none of them progressed very far in their arcs, creating a strong setting and interesting characters--but a bad book. During the new version, I decided that this character would be moved to the later books, and I'd explore him there. In the 2002 version, the text was very dodgy on whether or not Taln was a Herald. Confronting the fact that he might be crazy was a major arc and theme of the book--however, as I've worked on the new version, I've realized that it would be dangerous to be too vague on this. Stringing people along with the question for a book or two is one thing, waiting until book six or eight to do a character's arc, and leaving the question of whether they're a Herald or not all that time, seemed unfair. So the text is going to be making manifest fairly quickly who this person is. You'll have confirmations long before we dig into his viewpoint in the later books. So, a recap: 1) The swords WERE swapped somehow. 2) Someone could hold an Honorblade and not realize they had access to powers. 3) This character may or may not actually be a Herald--but the text is going to make the answer clear, and I'm not trying to trick you. FAQFriday 2017 (May 19, 2017) Both of those were before Oathbringer released Nov 2017. His identity was confirmed by Ash at the Battle of Thaylen Field in Oathbringer. 5
Duxredux he/him Posted February 8, 2024 Posted February 8, 2024 (edited) 22 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: What are your thoughts on the Taln is not the original taln theory? Cant find them at the moment but there have been multiple WOB's that say something to the effect of 'the guy who THINKS he is taln' I'm pretty sure Taln is Taln. I remember those WoBs, and I think those were mostly around WoK and WoR in order to introduce some uncertainty as to whether or not he genuinely was a Herald or just a madman. Ash was absolutely certain that she was talking to Taln at the end of Oathbringer, going so far as to apologize and cry when he refused to hate her for leaving him in Braise for 4500 years (edit, the text doesn't say she cries, but that's the inflection in the audiobook). If he had been replaced while on Braise, I highly, highly doubt that something that Odium created to make a false Herald would look out at civilization and think about what a wonderful gift was given to humanity and how they finally had a chance to rebuild. Every aspect of that scene is something that Odium could never have fabricated. Ah've been NINJA'D! @Treamayne Edited February 8, 2024 by Duxredux 3
CtrlAltDepressed Posted February 8, 2024 Posted February 8, 2024 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Treamayne said: His identity was confirmed by Ash at the Battle of Thaylen Field in Oathbringer. Thanks for sharing I hadnt seen that WOB before. I agree that Taln is Taln, and I honestly did not pick up on the potential of it being a false herald until after I had finished ROW, and by that time its pretty clear. I was worried I was missing something lol. 39 minutes ago, Duxredux said: Ash was absolutely certain that she was talking to Taln at the end of Oathbringer, going so far as to apologize and cry when he refused to hate her for leaving him in Braise for 4500 years. On this note......do we really think that after all those thousands of years, Taln finally broke now? That doesnt seem to make sense to me. Because it wasnt just the 4500 years, Taln never broke EVER. So i highly doubt he broke now. When we see him in the end of Oathbringer, he has to be told that he is back, he cant even tell hes not on braize anymore due to his madness. That doesnt seem like someone who could even know that 'breaking' is a possibility. Where im going with all this, what weight do you all place on the Shallans mother was a herald theory? We know that her mother was saying pretty much the same thing as Nale (kill all Radiants to stop the desolation) It makes sense that the cryptics would bond her at such a young age as they would be very interested in 'spying' on a herald It makes sense that the skybreakers would give shard blade/plate to Heleran in this scenario It makes sense that Hoid would have been following Shallan from a young age if her mom is a herald The timeline is sort of messy here, but taken all together, if shallans mom actually was a herald, that would put her on braize for 7 years. That seems like a realistic timeline for a not taln herald to break, given that we are told they were happening back to back towards the end. This also lines up with Shallan's personal arc - her 5th truth would be that she caused the desolation I admit it would be weird for this to not come up until the 5th book, but I think its very plausible. What do you all think? Edited February 8, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed changed ideal to truth
alder24 Posted February 8, 2024 Posted February 8, 2024 31 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: On this note......do we really think that after all those thousands of years, Taln finally broke now? No: Spoiler Questioner Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...? Brandon Sanderson You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break. JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) 33 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Where im going with all this, what weight do you all place on the Shallans mother was a herald theory? For me it's a fact now
Treamayne Posted February 8, 2024 Posted February 8, 2024 38 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: On this note......do we really think that after all those thousands of years, Taln finally broke now? 3 minutes ago, alder24 said: No: Please see these threads: Taln Never Broke [Theory]Taln wasn't the Herald who broke
CtrlAltDepressed Posted February 8, 2024 Posted February 8, 2024 23 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Please see these threads: Taln Never Broke [Theory]Taln wasn't the Herald who broke Im headed down the rabbit hole now, thank you!
Chandlerhimself Posted March 6, 2024 Posted March 6, 2024 I think the answer is that giving people Raysium or other info would be breaking the rules of the pact between Odium and Honor. Think of all the things both of them could do without even getting into Raysium, anti-void light, gemstone trapping, etc. Instead of 5 honor blades he could have made 10,000 and used normal humans to kill all the fused. Odium and Honor could have replaced the fused and Heralds as they started to go crazy or even added more. I believe Rabonial even says no other fused have been added since they were first made. I don't think there is some deeper thinking behind this. I think Odium and Honor both have their hands tied by the agreement and if they break the rules it will create a hole in their soul that will allow the other to kill them. Rayse even says he can't trick people by sticking to the word of an agreement and then using semantic loopholes. He has to stick to the spirit of the agreement. If honor and Odium had an agreement about interference, then neither of them would be able to give out info about those types of things. Honor may have known where the Dawnshards are, but he might have been barred from revealing it. I'm sure he also thought humans could bond with Spren, but I'm guessing he had to let the humans figure it out themselves.
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